No guarantee of employment after medical school?

[Petypet]

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I believe that if graduate students amassed the same debt as a medical student (upwards of $150K) and with no guarantee of a job, as opposed to being paid a stipend and not having to pay their tuition, that they would soon become sympathetic with medical students living on loans for 4 years (or longer, if you include college) with no way to pay it back afterwards.
Just curious what other people out there think. Apparently I am 'conceited' for thinking that a MATCH system is essential. Also, by this persons analysis, medical students are lazy because they don't have to go out and find a job for themselves like the PhDs do.

I happen to have done a PhD prior to medical school, and frankly medical students do have it easier, in my opinion. Firstly, if PhD programs were tuition based with no stipend, the research aspect of medicine would die. Secondly, I chose a PhD program because I would avoid the student loans of medical school, and frankly how that I have 4 years worth of loans, its not that big of a deal. When I am done with residency I am almost guaranteed a job in avery high paying field, and will have enough cash to to support a family without my wife having to work another day in her life. That's amazing if you think about it. Few other professions can do that. Secondly, a PhD isn't just a "free ride, free degree" with a great job at the end of the tunnel. Most PhD programs are "4" years but frequently are in the 5-7 year length. Thats med school + most of residency. Then the PhD usually finds a crap job or 3-5 year post doc until they become a sr researcher or assistant prof. Starting salary for PhD biochem in industry is less than 60k, post doc is less than a resident at like 40k, and assistant professor or senior research scientist starts at 90k. Meanwhile I am living off loans, will make 50k as a resident, and probably 300k starting as an attending. The job search as a PhD, and in general, is very stressful. Imagine, someone like me with 15 publications (one in nature) applying to about 80 jobs/post docs and only get a handful of bites. Meanwhile at the same time my friends were graduating residency/med school with prospects of starting a family, making $$$$, and having the start of a promising career.

In either case, the PhD student I had an at length debate with over this strongly believes that medical students deserve 'equally as little' (verbatim those were her words, btw) as PhD students are given. Of course, when I countered "don't you mean medical students deserve equally as much, such as free health insurance and a stipend?" Then suddently MD's are not equal to PhD's. "That's different."

Once you enroll in medical school, your career is made and you are almost guaranteed to be in the 1% . As a PhD, I would have gladly given up my "free health insurance and 19k/year stipend" for the guarantee of a 300k/year salary. I think the match day is a bit superfluous and one of the many things in medical school that is about tooting your own horn. But that's me personally. I worked 2x as hard in my PhD than I have in medical school and I am among the top students at my school. Not sure what that accounts for but it is what it is.

Here's the thing. The Match provides an organized system by which medical students can be placed in training that they are required to receive before they are allowed to practice. It is training with a stipend, but no more a job than a postdoc is a "job." The Match system was created precisely because there was a point in time when many programs went unfilled, students would sign binding contracts to a lower tier program that hardballed them (we'll take you to train here, but only if you sign within 24 hours) only to find their top choice later accepted them, and finding a centralized, up to date, complete, and reliable source of information on GME programs was impossible. Without the match, there was chaos for everyone. PhDs could have a match of their own for postdoctoral programs if they wanted. It isn't medicine's fault we have a better system for matching terminal graduates to training programs than scientists do. If they're so damn smart and motivated, they could easily create a match system of their own.

If he wants to be upset that physicians ultimately have a better job market than researchers, that is, again, not the fault of physicians. We have a better market because there is a clear need for physicians. People need primary care docs to see them when they are ill, radiologists to read their scans, and surgeons to perform their surgeries. While research is extremely important, we do not need it as immediately as we often require medical services, so it has ended up on the backburner of the public conscious. Sure, people know that without research our lives will stop improving. But, when there isn't a whole hell of a lot of funding to go around, and you're told you can give a guy some money to work with rats on a project that is 90% likely to produce nothing of practical value, or you can use that same funding to train a doctor, that once trained, will continue to provide service to the public and only receive funding for tangible services rendered, it's hard to justify throwing money at the researcher. Worse yet, there really isn't a unified research funding lobby on the same level of the AMA, so they don't really have a group with a strong enough voice to pull the necessary strings in Washington.

If researchers want a better job market, they need to become more organized. Have tighter standards and a system of licensure for researcher accreditation to ensure less of them are pumped out and those that are have exceptional quality, organize the postdoctoral system into a set of focus areas and create a match-like system, and create a unified lobbying and PR voice to ensure both the public and Washington are aware of the value of researchers and the resources they require for research success. To be upset at physicians because they have done everything right is simply neglecting that the PhD market has done everything wrong for the past several decades.

You are extremely misinformed and naive. The way the PhD market has evolved is economics, not a crap shoot like the match and residency. The smartest and most innovative researchers get the best jobs. The best test takers but not necessarily the best physicians get the best residency slots.

 

[Petypet]

There is probably such a high drop out rate from PhD programs because it is comparatively easy to get into such a program. US Medical schools have a low attrition rate because it is a highly selective process - only the students who are (among other factors) perceived as the most capable to tough it out through a medical school curriculum for 4 years, are accepted. As far as a research-industry market that is saturated with PhD's - this is nothing new. There are very few professorship/associate professorship/assistant professorship positions available in academia, and there are at least 10 candidates for every industry position out there. However, as much as a PhD candidate 'sacrifices' they are often very well taken care of by their institution (waived tuition, health insurance coverage, stipend, subsidized university housing, etc.) whereas your typical MD student has to fend for themselves entirely on borrowed money.

There is not a "high drop" out rate from PhD programs. Most of the students I know left programs because once they were 2-3 years in, realized their life direction was different than what they thought it would be when they left undergrad (not because they were inherently "dumber than others". They didn't have the burden of loans keeping them in. Medical schools don't have low attrition because the process is so selective but because if you drop out 1/2 way through you are burdened with debt. Also, schools lose a lot of money when 1 student drops out, so it is in their best interest to keep students enrolled. If you drop out at year 1, thats probably 100k the school loses. At my school, you have 3 chances to fail per year, and you can fail a whole year and just repeat it. If the selection process was so good, why do students routinely fail blocks and have to repeat years? The schools spoon feed so many students through the process, and from my experience this happens at every single school in Ohio.

The money given for a PhD candidate, at the end of the day is ALOT less than the loans us students take out. My classmates all drive nice cars, wear nice clothes, and live in very expensive housing, not something I really think of when someone says "fending for themselves". My stipend of 19k at Ohio State, does not go very far after taxes, rent, groceries, meanwhile I am eating better now on Stafford loans, living in a better apartment, and driving a nicer car. Its all about perspective.

 

[Mad Jack]

You are extremely misinformed and naive. The way the PhD market has evolved is economics, not a crap shoot like the match and residency. The smartest and most innovative researchers get the best jobs. The best test takers but not necessarily the best physicians get the best residency slots.

A match for physics postdocs would have different selection criteria than that for medicine. I'm not saying they should be selected as doctors are, but rather that an organized system should exist by which graduating PhDs could apply to a broad range of programs at the same time. Those programs could then rank the students based on how innovative and smart they are or whatever, and the students would rank the schools based on whatever criteria they choose. The match then occurs, ensuring the best pairing of candidates to programs. It doesn't defy economics in any way, and would benefit both those applying and those recruiting.

Hell, if you wanted to cut down the market size, close poorly performing PhD programs, and improve job prospects, you could require that researchers complete a postdoc to be eligible for government funding of their projects. This would essentially mean that PhDs would have to complete postdocs if they wanted to work in non-corporate research, and that postdoc positions would become the limiting factor in PhD training. Programs that couldn't match students to careers or postdocs would end up going under because few students would be willing to commit to them, and only strong programs would survive. There are obviously many, many problems with this idea, but I came up with it in about five minutes on my lunch break. Surely some PhD wielding genius can come up with a better way to fix their job market than I.

 

[bakedbeans18]

I happen to have done a PhD prior to medical school, and frankly medical students do have it easier, in my opinion. Firstly, if PhD programs were tuition based with no stipend, the research aspect of medicine would die. Secondly, I chose a PhD program because I would avoid the student loans of medical school, and frankly how that I have 4 years worth of loans, its not that big of a deal. When I am done with residency I am almost guaranteed a job in avery high paying field, and will have enough cash to to support a family without my wife having to work another day in her life. That's amazing if you think about it. Few other professions can do that. Secondly, a PhD isn't just a "free ride, free degree" with a great job at the end of the tunnel. Most PhD programs are "4" years but frequently are in the 5-7 year length. Thats med school + most of residency. Then the PhD usually finds a crap job or 3-5 year post doc until they become a sr researcher or assistant prof. Starting salary for PhD biochem in industry is less than 60k, post doc is less than a resident at like 40k, and assistant professor or senior research scientist starts at 90k. Meanwhile I am living off loans, will make 50k as a resident, and probably 300k starting as an attending. The job search as a PhD, and in general, is very stressful. Imagine, someone like me with 15 publications (one in nature) applying to about 80 jobs/post docs and only get a handful of bites. Meanwhile at the same time my friends were graduating residency/med school with prospects of starting a family, making $$$$, and having the start of a promising career.





Once you enroll in medical school, your career is made and you are almost guaranteed to be in the 1% . As a PhD, I would have gladly given up my "free health insurance and 19k/year stipend" for the guarantee of a 300k/year salary. I think the match day is a bit superfluous and one of the many things in medical school that is about tooting your own horn. But that's me personally. I worked 2x as hard in my PhD than I have in medical school and I am among the top students at my school. Not sure what that accounts for but it is what it is.




You are extremely misinformed and naive. The way the PhD market has evolved is economics, not a crap shoot like the match and residency. The smartest and most innovative researchers get the best jobs. The best test takers but not necessarily the best physicians get the best residency slots.

I am not sure if you realize this, but everything you've said corroborates my point.
I was not saying one is better than the other, and I was not saying one is harder than the other. If you want to turn it into a contest, go ahead.
The truth of the matter is that medical students place themselves in a financially less stable position for a significant length of time, while PhD students do not.

You say that research aspect of medicine would die out if PhD programs were converted to a high-tuition situation like that of medical school? If medical students were not streamlined into jobs, the medicine aspect of medicine would die. As stated previously - without research, we would not make new discoveries and advance medicine towards better outcomes and new therapies, but the status quo would still be maintained scientific advancement notwithstanding. Also, a starting attending salary of $300K is only true for the most competitive specialties, and by and large does not represent the majority of physicians that are just entering the workforce after residency or fellowship.

It makes no difference to the entire scientific community how many publications you have authored/co-authored. Unless they are centered around a problem that a significant number of investiagors are studying, you will be limited in who you can seek employment with and boast your skill-set relevance for their investigations. This is a logistic that makes it impossible to implement a system that 'matches' newly minted PhD's to post-doctoral fellowships.

The point about a stipend, waived tuition, and university sponsored health insurance wasn't to incite a debate over whether PhD programs are a 'free ride'. The point is that PhD students don't typically incur the astonishing level of debt that medical students will, and the 'guarantee of a job' is not only in the interest of the graduating medical school seniors, but is in the interest of the government so that they can retrieve the money they have lent, as well as to ensure that physicians are entering the workforce and meeting the healthcare needs of the public. If you finish a PhD and you have a difficult time finding a job, yeah that sucks, but you also don't have mounting debt by virtue of your advanced education to pay back.

 

[bakedbeans18]

Once you enroll in medical school, your career is made and you are almost guaranteed to be in the 1% . As a PhD, I would have gladly given up my "free health insurance and 19k/year stipend" for the guarantee of a 300k/year salary.

I think you may be confused at the focal point of the arguments being made in this thread. The point is about a match system in place for graduating medical students, and that it's 'unreasonable' or 'unjust' that there is not such a system for students completing PhD programs. The level of income is irrelevant for this discussion - the point is about securing employment. Scientific research and clinical medicine are very different professions, and the income that can be earned by pursuing either is dictated by, just as anything else, a supply-demand economy. There is a greater societal need for physicians than there is for scientists, this is just a fact. So, it makes sense that a newly minted physician may benefit from a higher starting salary (in residency) than a newly minted PhD. The point about health insurance and stipend and waived tuition has nothing to do with the earning potential of a physcian, but everything to do with the fact that medical students make a considerably greater sacrifice in their lifestyle, or don't but at the expense of a considerable interest rate on money they will have to eventually pay back. The dinners you eat in graduate school, the jeans you buy, the gas you put in your car - you never have to pay that money back. Medical students do, so there is a system in place to ensure we are capable of doing so once we have earned our degrees.

 

[Nasrudin]

Interesting thread. I think the context of declining economy also explains much of the contentiousness between careers in the market place. There's just very few things that pay well anymore. And education doesn't mean what it used to.

Phd's who don't select a field that feeds into a hot industrial market are clearly being taken advantage of to support the harvesting of the next crop of suckers. No body gives a **** about toad physiology. But there's a phd somewhere who spent years of his/her life studying how amphibians screw. Or whatever.

The exploitative tenure system would be my enemy. I don't resent the quants on Wall Street or the Internet security specialist who can take a highly specialized skill set and a little entrepreneurialism and crush my earning potential.

You studied far-too-micro-focused crap for years and are surprised nobody wants to pay you for it?

Frustrated educated suckers are probably poised to be the largest demographic in out new economic reality.

 

[Nasrudin]

Also. Sure research is the foundation of medical science. But what percent of it? The publish or perish modality produces a bunch of useless crap.

 

[Petypet]

You studied far-too-micro-focused crap for years and are surprised nobody wants to pay you for it?

That is true to a point. My publication on a class of enzymes PROBABLY won't do anything more in my lifetime other than get cited for future worthless publications. However, the argument can easily be envisioned, you study say "toad" physiology and find an enzyme that can catalyze a reaction that can not be in done in a test tube. Said reaction creates a product that makes a chemotherapeutic more bioactive, and boom you help millions of people. Such discoveries aren't publicized everyday but are certainly common and possibly. At what point do you stop funding research that is so micro-focused such that the costs outweigh the benefits. That is not an easy discussion to have. However, people that do spend 7 years studying a class of enzymes, while not as immediately useful as a primary care physician who can send someone's blood out for screening, is clearly valuable and could make great contributions to society.

Until science flatlines and our progress comes to a halt, I am not sure at what point do we remove the publish-perish mentality. To date we are making more meaningful scientific strides daily than we ever have. The biggest expense to this, I feel, is training foreign graduates who come here get our education, and then take their work back to their foreign country. Thats a whole different topic for a different day.

 

[Petypet]

I think you may be confused at the focal point of the arguments being made in this thread. The point is about a match system in place for graduating medical students, and that it's 'unreasonable' or 'unjust' that there is not such a system for students completing PhD programs. The level of income is irrelevant for this discussion - the point is about securing employment. Scientific research and clinical medicine are very different professions, and the income that can be earned by pursuing either is dictated by, just as anything else, a supply-demand economy. There is a greater societal need for physicians than there is for scientists, this is just a fact. So, it makes sense that a newly minted physician may benefit from a higher starting salary (in residency) than a newly minted PhD. The point about health insurance and stipend and waived tuition has nothing to do with the earning potential of a physcian, but everything to do with the fact that medical students make a considerably greater sacrifice in their lifestyle, or don't but at the expense of a considerable interest rate on money they will have to eventually pay back. The dinners you eat in graduate school, the jeans you buy, the gas you put in your car - you never have to pay that money back. Medical students do, so there is a system in place to ensure we are capable of doing so once we have earned our degrees.

touche, I am fatigue from a new infant and studying. One question I have is what is so self sacrificing about medical school. Sure it takes a long time, but its not that terrible. Maybe if you haven't experienced life outside the high school-college-med school bubble then it is a change but many people work much harder for much less. There are ways to make school not so life sacrificing, such as not going to a private university, not maximizing loans and buying new jeans yearly, eating out regularly. I really think that most of my classmates are taking out more than they need for the sake of living comfortably. Again, different from the main topic, but one that is slightly side relevent.

 

[@JackShephard]

There is a greater societal need for physicians than there is for scientists, this is just a fact.

end of discussion.

Even some fields in medicine are in lower demand than others. Those fields get less opportunities of guaranteed work.

I'm not even sure why this is a drawn out discussion.

 

[Nasrudin]

That is true to a point. My publication on a class of enzymes PROBABLY won't do anything more in my lifetime other than get cited for future worthless publications. However, the argument can easily be envisioned, you study say "toad" physiology and find an enzyme that can catalyze a reaction that can not be in done in a test tube. Said reaction creates a product that makes a chemotherapeutic more bioactive, and boom you help millions of people. Such discoveries aren't publicized everyday but are certainly common and possibly. At what point do you stop funding research that is so micro-focused such that the costs outweigh the benefits. That is not an easy discussion to have. However, people that do spend 7 years studying a class of enzymes, while not as immediately useful as a primary care physician who can send someone's blood out for screening, is clearly valuable and could make great contributions to society.

Until science flatlines and our progress comes to a halt, I am not sure at what point do we remove the publish-perish mentality. To date we are making more meaningful scientific strides daily than we ever have. The biggest expense to this, I feel, is training foreign graduates who come here get our education, and then take their work back to their foreign country. Thats a whole different topic for a different day.

Yeah. I hear you. The vanishing amazon is probably the largest repository of useful chemistry that may have ever existed. And it will vanish undiscovered.

I guess my sense of it is we are in decline. Science as pure exploration is already dead if it ever really existed in the first place. I love the Cosmos as much as anyone--both incarnations--and have read books on the history of science out of pure joy.

But as individuals seeking to not be making a barista's pay, we need to forget about the pleasures and intoxication of learning and curiosity and just follow the f'n money. I'm just not a subscriber to the noble poverty ideal. And if you're going to be a bitter pilgrim on the road for god. Leave it and figure out what this economy is paying for.

That's what I would've said to this phd complaining to the OP: nobody's gonna pay you to do that stuff you're doing. You gotta hustle your @ss off these days to make a good living. And what you're doing right now is getting hustled and pimped yourself.

 

[@JackShephard]

Once you enroll in medical school, your career is made and you are almost guaranteed to be in the 1% . As a PhD, I would have gladly given up my "free health insurance and 19k/year stipend" for the guarantee of a 300k/year salary. I think the match day is a bit superfluous and one of the many things in medical school that is about tooting your own horn. But that's me personally. I worked 2x as hard in my PhD than I have in medical school and I am among the top students at my school. Not sure what that accounts for but it is what it is.

Haha.

#1, there are many physicians who aren't guaranteed 300k salaries. Especially since income may and will be dropping.

The match is what it is. You think it's "tooting your own horn", well great. I think PhDs toot their own horn by constantly talking at length about things that no one is interested in but themselves (how is that for complete lack of social awareness).

So your medical school is twice as easy as your PhD. So what? At other schools the PhD program is much easier.

It sounds like you're good at tests which does make medical school easy for some. Great, thanks for sharing. I can't help but think that's "tooting one's horn" by saying how you are a top medical student and you're working 1/2 as hard as other graduate programs.

A PhD is lots of hard work but it's just not very valuable in general. That's why people can't find jobs for this. Very few people are being served or are willing to pay for the services or skills that a PhD has. It's sad if you worked twice as hard at a skill that lacks value, hopefully you love it.

 

[Nasrudin]

end of discussion.

Even some fields in medicine are in lower demand than others. Those fields get less opportunities of guaranteed work.

I'm not even sure why this is a drawn out discussion.

I don't think societal need is always operative. The question is better put a who will pay for what. Pediatrics isn't the lowest paying field because it isn't needed as much. And so on.

 

[@JackShephard]

I don't think societal need is always operative. The question is better put a who will pay for what. Pediatrics isn't the lowest paying field because it isn't needed as much. And so on.

Well, FM and Peds are in the poor position of not being lobbied for in D.C. like orthopedics or radiology is. So unfortunately a mechanism is holding down some specialties from getting their true worth due to politics. FM and Psych as you know are some of the most in demand services, yet the politicians have decided to reimburse Ortho spine 700-800k compared to 180k. That's just America.

 

[@JackShephard]

You studied far-too-micro-focused crap for years and are surprised nobody wants to pay you for it?

Frustrated educated suckers are probably poised to be the largest demographic in out new economic reality.

This is an excellent point.

Americans today are so obsessed with education. It used to be college degrees that qualified you. Now it's a masters degrees or PhDs. We have all these people who have built 100-300k in debt to pass tests and get certificates, yet they have no skills! I have friends that went to 2-3 year trade schools after high school and began earning 80k or so before most of us were graduating college. They get pay increases as they go and probably earn 100-150k now.

These are only high school graduates but they have valuable skills that people need. They are without debt and earning maybe 100-150k/yr. Then there's all these incredibly smart people with 8 years of post graduate education and 100-300k in debt who have nothing of value to offer society. Great!

At least medicine is focused on building skills that people need. If they want to hold a ceremony called match day to commemorate 4 years of hard work and focus on building skills that are important, then fantastic. It's something to be celebrated. Most of us have worked very hard to get through this, sure there's a PhD student here and there that thinks it's trivial and easy, but that's not the norm. I can't help but think they didn't work as hard as they could at being great if they think it was so easy.

 

[Petypet]

Haha.

#1, there are many physicians who aren't guaranteed 300k salaries. Especially since income may and will be dropping.

The match is what it is. You think it's "tooting your own horn", well great. I think PhDs toot their own horn by constantly talking at length about things that no one is interested in but themselves (how is that for complete lack of social awareness).

So your medical school is twice as easy as your PhD. So what? At other schools the PhD program is much easier.

It sounds like you're good at tests which does make medical school easy for some. Great, thanks for sharing. I can't help but think that's "tooting one's horn" by saying how you are a top medical student and you're working 1/2 as hard as other graduate programs.

A PhD is lots of hard work but it's just not very valuable in general. That's why people can't find jobs for this. Very few people are being served or are willing to pay for the services or skills that a PhD has. It's sad if you worked twice as hard at a skill that lacks value, hopefully you love it.

#1 300K was just a throw out salary, point being it is significantly more than that of most PhDs.

#2 The point of saying medical school was an easier experience than my PhD, was to emphasize the point that medical school isn't the worlds most difficult accomplishment. Medical school is the same no matter where you go, memorize pathways, pharm, bio, whatever. And for people to constantly feel entitled to a well paying job because they worked hard and were foolish to take out tons of debt, is absurd.

#3 PhD's can't find jobs not because the degree is useless but there are too many jobs being taken overseas and by foreigners. The great and the crappy thing about America is that almost anyone can come here and work as long as some company pays a few $$ for a visa sponsorship. Generally those people are willing to work harder for less, since they were working much harder for much less in their native homes.

 

[Nasrudin]

Well, FM and Peds are in the poor position of not being lobbied for in D.C. like orthopedics or radiology is. So unfortunately a mechanism is holding down some specialties from getting their true worth due to politics. FM and Psych as you know are some of the most in demand services, yet the politicians have decided to reimburse Ortho spine 700-800k compared to 180k. That's just America.

Right. I agree. So I found a niche is the medical economy that I'm happy with. That and I plan on hustling hard within it. A lot of things I would've loved to spend time being paid to engage in--history, language, music, etc--but I looked at what I could do and where my abilities were strong and chose this.

The frustrated phd is far down the line in a game where she is getting played and hustled out of her efforts going nowhere. So what. So was I. I'm graduating at 40. The situation is the same for everyone. Hustle or be hustled. Or somewhere in between that you can live with taking your chances on. What are we going to do...complain to the growing poverty of the world?

 

[Petypet]

Right. I agree. So I found a niche is the medical economy that I'm happy with. That and I plan on hustling hard within it. A lot of things I would've loved to spend time being paid to engage in--history, language, music, etc--but I looked at what I could do and where my abilities were strong and chose this.

The frustrated phd is far down the line in a game where she is getting played and hustled out of her efforts going nowhere. So what. So was I. I'm graduating at 40. The situation is the same for everyone. Hustle or be hustled. Or somewhere in between that you can live with taking your chances on. What are we going to do...complain to the growing poverty of the world?

Old fart 🙂

 

[DermViser]

I happen to have done a PhD prior to medical school, and frankly medical students do have it easier, in my opinion. Firstly, if PhD programs were tuition based with no stipend, the research aspect of medicine would die. Secondly, I chose a PhD program because I would avoid the student loans of medical school, and frankly how that I have 4 years worth of loans, its not that big of a deal. When I am done with residency I am almost guaranteed a job in avery high paying field, and will have enough cash to to support a family without my wife having to work another day in her life. That's amazing if you think about it. Few other professions can do that. Secondly, a PhD isn't just a "free ride, free degree" with a great job at the end of the tunnel. Most PhD programs are "4" years but frequently are in the 5-7 year length. Thats med school + most of residency. Then the PhD usually finds a crap job or 3-5 year post doc until they become a sr researcher or assistant prof. Starting salary for PhD biochem in industry is less than 60k, post doc is less than a resident at like 40k, and assistant professor or senior research scientist starts at 90k. Meanwhile I am living off loans, will make 50k as a resident, and probably 300k starting as an attending. The job search as a PhD, and in general, is very stressful. Imagine, someone like me with 15 publications (one in nature) applying to about 80 jobs/post docs and only get a handful of bites. Meanwhile at the same time my friends were graduating residency/med school with prospects of starting a family, making $$$$, and having the start of a promising career.

Once you enroll in medical school, your career is made and you are almost guaranteed to be in the 1% . As a PhD, I would have gladly given up my "free health insurance and 19k/year stipend" for the guarantee of a 300k/year salary. I think the match day is a bit superfluous and one of the many things in medical school that is about tooting your own horn. But that's me personally. I worked 2x as hard in my PhD than I have in medical school and I am among the top students at my school. Not sure what that accounts for but it is what it is.

You are extremely misinformed and naive. The way the PhD market has evolved is economics, not a crap shoot like the match and residency. The smartest and most innovative researchers get the best jobs. The best test takers but not necessarily the best physicians get the best residency slots.

Several points, and I'm a resident so I have a bit more credential on this having finished med school.

1. I will almost guarantee you that a postdoc is MUCH less stressful than a medical residency in which you will be thoroughly sleep-deprived, hungry (bc you don't get a lunch break, like post-docs get), have patients actively dying on you with attendings not there to bail you out, will have a patient whose life lies in your hands while you're the one doing CPR, etc., in which you are lower on the totem pole than the nurse. You will have many patients on your service that aren't medical issues, but more social issues (finding a nursing home for the patient).

You will then be yelled at by either your resident/attending for the tasks you weren't able to get done or which the nurse/social work/etc. didn't do, no matter how many tasks you were able to complete. Many times you will get paged to do admission minutes before getting to sign out, or minutes before having to round with the attending when on call, which you will have to finish quickly as you can't be late to rounds with your attending who will be impatiently waiting. You will be expected to tolerate this with a smiling attitude (unless you wished to be labeled as "not a team player"). All this effort and sacrifice for less than minimum wage for 3-7 years. You get a slight glimpse of this on MS-3 rotations, when you no longer get the protection afforded to you in the first 2 years of med school.

2. As far as you being, "among the top students at my school" (great modesty on your part), it's not at all surprising esp. in the first 2 years, that those who have completed PhDs before hand excel, esp. in the basic science coursework. Please come to us again AFTER you've completed your clinical rotations, and tell us whether you're still "top of your class".

 

[DermViser]

There is not a "high drop" out rate from PhD programs. Most of the students I know left programs because once they were 2-3 years in, realized their life direction was different than what they thought it would be when they left undergrad (not because they were inherently "dumber than others".

That by definition is dropping out.

 

[DermViser]

touche, I am fatigue from a new infant and studying. One question I have is what is so self sacrificing about medical school. Sure it takes a long time, but its not that terrible. Maybe if you haven't experienced life outside the high school-college-med school bubble then it is a change but many people work much harder for much less. There are ways to make school not so life sacrificing, such as not going to a private university, not maximizing loans and buying new jeans yearly, eating out regularly. I really think that most of my classmates are taking out more than they need for the sake of living comfortably. Again, different from the main topic, but one that is slightly side relevent.

Yes, but their time investment and money investment isn't NEARLY as large.

 

[Petypet]

Several points, and I'm a resident so I have a bit more credential on this having finished med school.

2. As far as you being, "among the top students at my school" (great modesty on your part), it's not at all surprising esp. in the first 2 years, that those who have completed PhDs before hand excel, esp. in the basic science coursework. Please come to us again AFTER you've completed your clinical rotations, and tell us whether you're still "top of your class".

I agree residency will be tough, and I appreciate that. My post doc was probably 60 hours/week and rightfully so, no dying patients to deal with. However, there are other stresses to manage and its all about the experience. I learned what its like to fight for my well being. I had to get a funded grant within 3 months, otherwise my job was gone. I agree not the same stresses as you are facing, but stressful enough to affect my work and social life.

And I didn't mean to come off conceited about saying I am one of the top students, just merely a point of view that coming in I had a different set of skills and I am finding out that the preclincial stuff isn't that hard. I apologize for coming off rude or haste. And I have been in the clinics for a while now, and have been getting good evaluations. I can't wait for the day that I am getting to make the meaningful clinical decisions.

That by definition is dropping out.

Most students that I know, refers to like 5 people, and they all left with terminal masters. I would argue the word dropping out is not the word of choice here. They have masters degrees in useful fields and have all gone to be productive members of society.

 

[DermViser]

I agree residency will be tough, and I appreciate that. My post doc was probably 60 hours/week and rightfully so, no dying patients to deal with. However, there are other stresses to manage and its all about the experience. I learned what its like to fight for my well being. I had to get a funded grant within 3 months, otherwise my job was gone. I agree not the same stresses as you are facing, but stressful enough to affect my work and social life.

And I didn't mean to come off conceited about saying I am one of the top students, just merely a point of view that coming in I had a different set of skills and I am finding out that the preclincial stuff isn't that hard. I apologize for coming off rude or haste. And I have been in the clinics for a while now, and have been getting good evaluations. I can't wait for the day that I am getting to make the meaningful clinical decisions.

Most students that I know, refers to like 5 people, and they all left with terminal masters. I would argue the word dropping out is the word of choice here. They have masters degrees in useful fields and have all gone to be productive members of society.

Any resident I know would KILL to have a 60 hr. work week and or maybe even get the occasional weekend off. Residents are lucky to even get one day off a week (and residencies try to game this as well since the obeying of rules is guarded by the program not the ACGME). I'm in a specialty, Derm, which has a relatively good lifestyle both in residency and beyond. I am very lucky in that respect and thankful everyday. I am talking about the VAST MAJORITY graduates who are in most other residencies.

Any medical student (esp. one who visits SDN) will tell you that the information in the first 2 years of medical school is not difficult. It's the volume and level of intricate detail that you are expected to know in a much shorter period of time, which is what makes it so difficult. For many it really requires a huge change in study skills to be able to process and digest this information quickly. It's not surprising you succeeded in this endeavor of the first 2 years having completed a PhD in Biochemistry.

Forget about clinics. Wait till you hit full-fledged inpatient rotations, esp. in some of the malignant specialties like OB-Gyn and Surgery, in which getting "Honors" is much more difficult to achieve, when much of your evaluations come from interns, residents, and attendings.

 

[bakedbeans18]

#1 300K was just a throw out salary, point being it is significantly more than that of most PhDs.

#2 The point of saying medical school was an easier experience than my PhD, was to emphasize the point that medical school isn't the worlds most difficult accomplishment. Medical school is the same no matter where you go, memorize pathways, pharm, bio, whatever. And for people to constantly feel entitled to a well paying job because they worked hard and were foolish to take out tons of debt, is absurd.

#3 PhD's can't find jobs not because the degree is useless but there are too many jobs being taken overseas and by foreigners. The great and the crappy thing about America is that almost anyone can come here and work as long. Generally those people are willing to work harder for less, since they were working much harder for much less in their native homes.

Let me start off by saying that #3 is inaccurate. An investigator will sooner hire someone with relevant experience for a post-doc fellowship that they don't have to also sponsor for a work visa. Chances are you'te getting beat out by someone from China or India because they have done high-acuity work that more closely aligns with what the PI is studying or they have a more appropriate (but also narrowly defined) skill set than you do. PhD's can't find jobs because the degree is focused for what is essentially, a micro-niche job market. "I studied High Mobility Group Protein B1 and its differential expression in young mice with induced septicemia." I don't know about you, but that seems like it poises you for low-yield in the job market.

Onto #2. Medical education is expensive. How many people do you know with $200K just sitting around to burn through four years on tuition, in addition to the cost of living for 4 years? One more time, for emphasis, because you do not seem to be hearing my main argument - the government wants its money back. When someone borrows those high interest unsubsidized Stafford and GradPlus loans to pay for medical school tution and their cost of living, the goverment is basically making a gamble that you'll be able to start paying them back all of that money back when you graduate medical school. Also, the government has an interest in streamlining a flux of physicians to meet the health care needs of a growing population in our country. So, what you are calling entitlement to a job, is really insurance that (1) the government gets its money back, and (2) that America can get healthy when it is sick.

I agree residency will be tough, and I appreciate that. My post doc was probably 60 hours/week and rightfully so, no dying patients to deal with. However, there are other stresses to manage and its all about the experience. I learned what its like to fight for my well being. I had to get a funded grant within 3 months, otherwise my job was gone. I agree not the same stresses as you are facing, but stressful enough to affect my work and social life.

See, the thing is, people can be dismissed from residency programs. So, just like in a post-doctoral fellowship, you're expected to work unrelentingly towards favorable outcomes, and your job (income, QoL, livelihood) depends on that. Incidentally, the lives of other people, also depend on it. Noone gives a damn if your n=47 study with Wistar rats becomes an n=43 study because 4 rats died of complication from an experimental drug.

Most students that I know, refers to like 5 people, and they all left with terminal masters. I would argue the word dropping out is not the word of choice here. They have masters degrees in useful fields and have all gone to be productive members of society.

Oh cool, so these were the crafty and underhanded graduate students that completed their QUALs, had a revelation, and instead of being admitted to candidacy were given a consolation M.S. that they didn't have to pay for? All the while having the university cover their living expenses during that time? I sure wish I had less integrity, I would have done the same and saved myself $80,000 in loans before going to medical school.

 

[@JackShephard]

#1 300K was just a throw out salary, point being it is significantly more than that of most PhDs.

#2 The point of saying medical school was an easier experience than my PhD, was to emphasize the point that medical school isn't the worlds most difficult accomplishment. Medical school is the same no matter where you go, memorize pathways, pharm, bio, whatever. And for people to constantly feel entitled to a well paying job because they worked hard and were foolish to take out tons of debt, is absurd.

#3 PhD's can't find jobs not because the degree is useless but there are too many jobs being taken overseas and by foreigners. The great and the crappy thing about America is that almost anyone can come here and work as long as some company pays a few $$ for a visa sponsorship. Generally those people are willing to work harder for less, since they were working much harder for much less in their native homes.

Sounds like you're good at tests and studying. There's a whole world out there you haven't experienced. Medical school is memorizing stuff? Sure. As a pre clinical student. Wait for some difficult attendings, residents, patients, or other medical staff/students. Navigating those situations is not like a multiple choice exam.

Edit: I'm confused, are you an M3 or M4 or what?

I've yet to meet a top 10% student who has said medical school is easy. So maybe you're the chosen one.

 

[@JackShephard]

Any resident I know would KILL to have a 60 hr. work week and or maybe even get the occasional weekend off. Residents are lucky to even get one day off a week (and residencies try to game this as well since the obeying of rules is guarded by the program not the ACGME). I'm in a specialty, Derm, which has a relatively good lifestyle both in residency and beyond. I am very lucky in that respect and thankful everyday. I am talking about the VAST MAJORITY graduates who are in most other residencies.

Any medical student (esp. one who visits SDN) will tell you that the information in the first 2 years of medical school is not difficult. It's the volume and level of intricate detail that you are expected to know in a much shorter period of time, which is what makes it so difficult. For many it really requires a huge change in study skills to be able to process and digest this information quickly. It's not surprising you succeeded in this endeavor of the first 2 years having completed a PhD in Biochemistry.

Forget about clinics. Wait till you hit full-fledged inpatient rotations, esp. in some of the malignant specialties like OB-Gyn and Surgery, in which getting "Honors" is much more difficult to achieve, when much of your evaluations come from interns, residents, and attendings.

DV,

He has shown he is in for a rude awakening.

Stay tuned.

 

[DermViser]

I didn't realize you haven't had clinical rotations yet. Oh my.

Please come back after 1 year of rotations and tell us how easy it is to be a top student. It's not easy.

Sounds like you're good at tests and studying. There's a whole world out there you haven't experienced. Medical school is memorizing stuff? Sure. As a pre clinical student. Wait for some difficult attendings, residents, patients, or other medical staff/students. Navigating those situations is not like a multiple choice exam.

Edit: I'm confused, are you an M3 or M4 or what?

I know right? It's so easy to bloviate about being "at the top of your class" as Petypet has done, when all you're pretty much doing is taking multiple choice exams. He's then extrapolating this to inpatient clinical rotations which he believes will be a cinch, bc after all, he's acing the classroom part of medical school, when interns, residents, and attendings will throw Honors like roses on his feet. The amount of hubris and dissociation from reality is astounding.

 

[Petypet]

 

[DermViser]

Why? because i'll have to work 80+ hours? I've done that several months of my PhD. Had people demanding results, working long hours, etc. You guys are acting like medicine is the only hard thing in life. I am mix of MS2/MS3, taking boards this june but due altering my schedule for research I have already done FM/surg/trauma elective/oncology.

You guys are really the epitome of crappy med school classmates, complain classes are hard, complain residents are hard, complain this is hard. This is why I stay away from campus because of all the negativity.

😆😆😆😆😆

 

[DermViser]

Oh cool, so these were the crafty and underhanded graduate students that completed their QUALs, had a revelation, and instead of being admitted to candidacy were given a consolation M.S. that they didn't have to pay for? All the while having the university cover their living expenses during that time? I sure wish I had less integrity, I would have done the same and saved myself $80,000 in loans before going to medical school.

Funny how that works isn't it? Apparently, dropping out isn't really dropping out, esp. with the school covering all your expenses and essentially eating a loss due to you dropping out. Wish medical schools did that. Of course, then they'd cease to exist.

 

[DermViser]

You guys are really the epitome of crappy med school classmates, complain classes are hard, complain residents are hard, complain this is hard. This is why I stay away from campus because of all the negativity.

Wow, talking about putting the fingers in your ears and shouting out loud, "La la la, I can't hear you!"
At least you had the decency to erase your previous post, after you realized how stupid and utterly naive you sound.

 

[DermViser]

Hey why did you erase your post? Surely, due to you being at the "top of your class" you are very all-knowing.

 

[Petypet]

Wow, talking about putting the fingers in your ears and shouting out loud, "La la la, I can't hear you!"
At least you had the decency to erase your previous post, after you realized how stupid and utterly naive you sound.

No because I don't like sounding like a whiner and a complainer and realized that the more I talk with you guys the more both sides look like that.

 

[DermViser]

No because I don't like sounding like a whiner and a complainer and realized that the more I talk with you guys the more both sides look like that.

Speak for yourself, as I'm only stating facts not complaining. Like I said, I'm in dermatology so lifestyle is pretty good on this end during residency now and later as an attending. I thank my stars everyday to be in a specialty that affords that to where I have the time available to get a good nights sleep, exercise well, and eat right everyday.

I would say for you, I would say you sound more naive and wet behind the ears, with a touch of arrogance, rather than a whiner/complainer.

 

[Petypet]

I would say for you, I would say you sound more naive and wet behind the ears, with a touch of arrogance, rather than a whiner/complainer.

I would agree with the naivety, and would not I be a potential surgeon without a touch of arrogance. But there are 2 sides to every situation, and frankly everyone who says medical training is unequivocally the hardest thing ever, really hasn't experienced life outside of medicine.

 

[DermViser]

I would agree with the naivety, and would not I be a potential surgeon without a touch of arrogance. But there are 2 sides to every situation, and frankly everyone who says medical training is unequivocally the hardest thing ever, really hasn't experienced life outside of medicine.

Even potential surgeons have a little bit of humility, and are smart enough to not remark on how easy things are when one hasn't even taken Step 1 yet. Leave the "touch of arrogance" when (if) you actually match into a general surgical residency or a surgical specialty.

 

[DermViser]

I would agree with the naivety, and would not I be a potential surgeon without a touch of arrogance. But there are 2 sides to every situation, and frankly everyone who says medical training is unequivocally the hardest thing ever, really hasn't experienced life outside of medicine.

Medical training isn't just medical school. It includes the 3 to 7 years of residency. Even after medical school alone, all you have at this point is a credential - an M.D. which is the barrier to entry you need to achieve to enter residency. You've nowhere experienced how hard things will get, having the protection you do, being a student.

 

[@JackShephard]

Why? because i'll have to work 80+ hours? I've done that several months of my PhD. Had people demanding results, working long hours, etc. You guys are acting like medicine is the only hard thing in life. I am mix of MS2/MS3, taking boards this june but due altering my schedule for research I have already done FM/surg/trauma elective/oncology.

You guys are really the epitome of crappy med school classmates, complain classes are hard, complain residents are hard, complain this is hard. This is why I stay away from campus because of all the negativity.

I would agree with the naivety, and would not I be a potential surgeon without a touch of arrogance. But there are 2 sides to every situation, and frankly everyone who says medical training is unequivocally the hardest thing ever, really hasn't experienced life outside of medicine.

Let's address a few points. It sounds like you are an M2. I'm not sure what a mix of M2/M3 is in March. I've don't know any M3's applying for residency in in the near future who haven't taken Step 1 yet (most of us are deciding when to take Step 2 right now).

With that said, since you are likely an M2, there's nothing quite as annoying to people as others saying what they are doing is easy (it's a humble brag). This is brash and off-putting in general. This is even more annoying when this person hasn't even done what they claim is easy, while also boasting of being a top student. So as DV said, you come off as naive and arrogant when you claim medical school is easy as a M2 who hasn't even taken Step 1.

Lastly, no one said med school was "unequivocally the hardest thing ever". No one. I said it was challenging for me. Also, I said I've yet to meet a top medical student who said it was easy. That's it.

Are we crappy med school classmates that complain? Or are you coming in here acting like you know everything as a pre-Step 1 M2 telling everyone med school is easy, you're a top student, we shouldn't "toot our horns" by having a single day to celebrate 4 years of hard work and sacrifice. (Hard work and sacrifice != hardest thing ever in the world!@#!@$). Why don't you set your ego aside, sit back with a cup of tea, relax, and revisit this discussion.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I would say that the first two years of medical school is easier than a PhD simply because you know what's expected of you. If you do XYZABC, then you will succeed. That's no so clear-cut with a PhD, especially when research refuses to cooperate.

The 3rd and 4th years are much more political and "soft" in that you can only control so much of what's going on, especially given that you just finished the first two years which had clear-cut criteria. Now you are thrown into the lion's den and you have no real rubric to go by. This is where people with good soft skills succeed while those without them bitch about the "unfairness" of it all.

 

[HooliganSnail]

This whole conversation is irrelevant.

Doctors have jobs after medical school because there is a strong need for doctors. It's supply and demand.

 

[Arkangeloid]

This whole conversation is irrelevant.

Doctors have jobs after medical school because there is a strong need for doctors. It's supply and demand.

There's a demand for PhD's too. It's just far outstripped by the supply.

 

[circulus vitios]

"Oh, so what you're saying is, you're money hungry and greedy. Makes sense that you're going to be a physician."
No joke, that's what I was told. Thank god they keep them in the labs.

It's not like the horrible PhD job market is a secret. It was their choice to spend 7 more years in school so they could make $40k/year, if they're lucky. Not my fault.

 

[bakedbeans18]

It's not like the horrible PhD job market is a secret. It was their choice to spend 7 more years in school so they could make $40k/year, if they're lucky. Not my fault.

You know what, my intention with this thread was not to incite a debate about MD vs. PhD or post-doc vs. resident, graduate student vs. medical student, but after seeing some of the responses to my OP, and the above quoted especially, I'm done being overtly tactful and sympathetic towards PhD's - students and established researchers alike. I'm sorry that no one with the exception of maybe 20 people in the world care about the specific problem you are trying to solve. Yes, cancer is a big deal. Not every cancer patient nor medical or surgical oncologist will necessarily stand to benefit from your studies of hypermethylation of proto-oncogenes involved with ependymomas, or heritable mutations in TERT promoters that lead to intractable melanomas. I, just as much as the next person, understand how much medicine is underscored by scientific research. That doesn't mean I need to thank you for what you do or tolerate your assertion that because I chose a different path to make my mark on society I am somehow inferior to you because I am not attempting to "answer questions that noone has yet dared to answer."

MD or bust.

FTR: I had actually been debating whether or not I wanted to apply internally to our MD/PhD program. I think I just figured out the answer to that one.

[end rant]

 

[deleted500612]

As far as match day ceremony is concerned... I think it is kind of a gimmick, along with the white coat ceremony. They are both ostentatious and unnecessary.

 

[colbgw02]

As far as match day ceremony is concerned... I think it is kind of a gimmick, along with the white coat ceremony. They are both ostentatious and unnecessary.

I agree about the White Coat Ceremony. It felt gimmicky at the time, and it became less meaningful over time.

I disagree about match day. That's the culmination of nearly four years of hard work. It has major implications on your career as well as where you're going to live for 3-7 years. Outside of births, deaths, and weddings, there aren't too many bigger days.

 

[bakedbeans18]

I agree about the White Coat Ceremony. It felt gimmicky at the time, and it became less meaningful over time.

I disagree about match day. That's the culmination of nearly four years of hard work. It has major implications on your career as well as where you're going to live for 3-7 years. Outside of births, deaths, and weddings, there aren't too many bigger days.

Allow me to present:

The Bakedbeans Pyramid of of happiness

1st Child
Match Day
Outliving my ex-wife
The divorce proceedings
Medical School Acceptance
T h e d a y t h a t I g e t M a r r i e d

(that last one was kind of a stretch, get it? )


​

 

[URHere]

Although the PhD student sounds unnecessarily hostile, I really hope they were just venting about their general PhD frustrations.

There's no way around the fact that the general job market for scientific researches is abysmal right now. This isn't entirely due to a glut of new PhDs…many established research labs are closing every year, which throws PIs, postdocs, and everyone else frantically back into the job market. Money is tight. Grants are more competitive than they have ever been before, and there is no job certainty for anyone, no matter how hard you've worked or how many papers you've published.

Even as someone who will have an MD to fall back on, I am constantly horrified by the thought that some of the hardest years of my life will probably net me nothing in the long run. I haven't been through clerkships yet, but I can honestly say that my PhD years were infinitely more difficult than MS1 and MS2. As a PhD, there are weeks where you spend 60-80 hours in lab, only for some tiny thing to fail and send everyone else into a rage that is directed exclusively at you. Sometimes a one week delay in results can mean not getting a grant or adding several months to your (uncertain) graduation date. In the middle of it, you doubt everything and everyone.

I'm sure similar things happen in clerkship and residency. Anytime you put immense pressure on someone who is already past the point of exhaustion it's going to take a toll. The processes are different, but both can be brutal. That being said, PhD students are lucky to escape debt-free, and MD students are lucky to have the match. Everyone gets something and that's good enough for now. So, I guess all I'm really trying to say is that this shouldn't be a matter of us vs. them, and we should all just learn to sympathize (and not snap) at each other.

 

[Wordead]

I agree about the White Coat Ceremony. It felt gimmicky at the time, and it became less meaningful over time.

I disagree about match day. That's the culmination of nearly four years of hard work. It has major implications on your career as well as where you're going to live for 3-7 years. Outside of births, deaths, and weddings, there aren't too many bigger days.

You're right that it's a big day, but I don't see why I'd want to go back to campus, stick a pin in a board with a bunch of administrators, and eat crappy food.

I'd rather go get hammered with my attendings in the specialty and my friends to celebrate. So more of a who do you want to celebrate your day with issue.

 

[colbgw02]

You're right that it's a big day, but I don't see why I'd want to go back to campus, stick a pin in a board with a bunch of administrators, and eat crappy food.

I'd rather go get hammered with my attendings in the specialty and my friends to celebrate. So more of a who do you want to celebrate your day with issue.

I did both, albeit without attendings. I also drank for free the whole day (minus pre-ceremony parking lot beers). I suppose if all you did is your first sentence, then, yeah, the pomp and circumstance of match day isn't a big deal.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I did both, albeit without attendings. I also drank for free the whole day (minus pre-ceremony parking lot beers). I suppose if all you did is your first sentence, then, yeah, the pomp and circumstance of match day isn't a big deal.

Yeah I did both as well. The ceremony at my med school was always a raucous event and a lot of fun - more than a few students every year show up drunk before it has even started. Then afterwards I celebrated with my friends and family, and later on got taken out for celebratory beers with my mentors/resident friends.