No guarantee of employment after medical school?

[Prodromo]

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Match day this year was fun as hell. The after party was even more fun. I don't understand why anyone would want to skip it. The energy was about to blow the roof off of the banquet hall. It was an event that I will remember for a long time.

 

[Arkangeloid]

But I don't understand, how can you party and drink/smoke if your parents and family are there?

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

Interesting thread. I always feel sorry for miserable post docs, grinding away for years, living in penury even past receiving their degrees, frequently exploited by their superiors. I have had some that were mean to me as an undergraduate researcher applying to medical school, but it is hard to hold much resentment, given the extent of their suffering, existential though it may be. Graduate scientific study is very likely is more intellectually rigorous than than the medical school didactic curriculum, but as has been discussed ad infinitum, it is the practical training that is marketable.

It is the simple truth that in our society, one will be rewarded not necessarily for how hard one works, or or the inherent value in the product of one's labor, but rather what people are willing to pay for that product, or how many people are willing to do so. These same market forces are distressing in many ways, like the disparity in compensation for acts of athletic prowess, between say, firemen and professional athletes. But it is kind of ridiculous not to recognize this.

Indeed, once accepted into good US MD school, one has a very high likelihood of employment as long as you apply yourself and don't do anything foolish. That being said, it really is large amount of sustained work. Seems like a good reason to celebrate to me. For IMG's, matching is a huge event, having taken a huge risk and having it pay off. Anyone who resents some celebrating for that is just being petty.

 

[deleted500612]

I agree about the White Coat Ceremony. It felt gimmicky at the time, and it became less meaningful over time.

I disagree about match day. That's the culmination of nearly four years of hard work. It has major implications on your career as well as where you're going to live for 3-7 years. Outside of births, deaths, and weddings, there aren't too many bigger days.

I agree with worhead above. I'm not trying to downplay the significance or importance of matching, obviously it is a big milestone and an important day. I just think the ceremony itself is gimmicky, and I can think of a lot better ways to celebrate that day than going to a lame ceremony. It also only serves as a slap in the face to someone who didn't match or got a really disappointing match, and another day for gunners to gloat about how superior they are.

 

[bakedbeans18]

I agree with the poster above. I'm not trying to downplay the significance or importance of matching, obviously it is a big milestone and an important day. I just think the ceremony itself is gimmicky, and I can think of a lot better ways to celebrate that day than going to a lame ceremony. It only serves as a slap in the face to someone who didn't match or got a really disappointing match, and another day for gunners to gloat about how superior they are.

I feel a little unsympathetic about a "slap in the face to someone who didn't match", given the typical reasons why someone doesn't match - unrealistic expectation to match into a specialty they are not competitive enough for, or being overconfident with their ROL and not ranking some safeguard programs from their interview trail. You have 4 years to prepare for the match, to build up a strong residency application. Just because a very small minority of people might not match doesn't necessarily mean it is in poor taste for those who did match to commemorate the occasion in the spotlight.

 

[colbgw02]

I agree with worhead above. I'm not trying to downplay the significance or importance of matching, obviously it is a big milestone and an important day. I just think the ceremony itself is gimmicky, and I can think of a lot better ways to celebrate that day than going to a lame ceremony. It also only serves as a slap in the face to someone who didn't match or got a really disappointing match, and another day for gunners to gloat about how superior they are.

I guess I need to reiterate that if your schedule on Match Day consists solely of your school's ceremony, then you're doing it wrong, assuming you did - in fact - match.

As to the rest, I'm a little at a loss for words. That may be the most #participationtrophygeneration post ever made. Not everyone can be happy so let's not have any public celebration? Do you also really hate weddings because there might be some unmarried or divorced people there?

 

[Winged Scapula]

But I don't understand, how can you party and drink/smoke if your parents and family are there?

<shrug> I was over 21 and had no reason to keep anything from them.

Then again, I'm not getting wasted (but even if I did, it wouldn't be a big deal in front of family. He'll it'd probably be safer since I have someone who cares about me watching out.)

 

[Save baby Buster]

So these grad students are jealous of our "gaurenteed" job that we are going to work 80 hrs a week and getting paid $45,000 a year. If they plan on making any meaningful contribution to science I hope they realize that's less than $15 dollars an hour. They could literally drop out of grad school get a job at Wendy's and make more per hour than us and fast food is always hiring it actually is a gaurenteed job.

 

[bakedbeans18]

So these grad students are jealous of our "gaurenteed" job that we are going to work 80 hrs a week and getting paid $45,000 a year. If they plan on making any meaningful contribution to science I hope they realize that's less than $15 dollars an hour. They could literally drop out of grad school get a job at Wendy's and make more per hour than us and fast food is always hiring it actually is a gaurenteed job.

First off. "MOTHER!!!!!"

Secondly, yupp. You hit the nail on the head. This was all prompted because I told a friend of mine (the PhD student) that I was so happy to see all of the awesome matches being announced at my schools Match Day. Just an innocuous statement, no snide inflection, no ulterior motive of inciting a debate, and then BAM, she turned into a begrudging curmudgeon and went off on a tirade. There are, nice, socially-apt, friendly, normal people in science. They do exist, but they are few and far between. For the rest, I make sure I have a jar of salsa...for that chip.

 

[Substance]

I think match day is a bit superfluous and is an illustration of the major problem that exists in medical education: it is based on century-old outdated recommendations that do not train students sufficiently for practice in the modern world. I don't know about anyone else, but by the end of medical school I felt like there was so much I missed out on, not because medicine is so broad, but because the general curriculum was insufficient.

Plus, there really is no reason for a medical student to really learn how to, say, deliver a baby or take a psych history if they're going into rads or something, other than to suck up to their preceptor. In essence, medical school doesn't teach you how to be a doctor, its just another hoop to jump through to get to residency, where you really learn how to be one. Most people never actually use what they learn in a practical way.

I am of the opinion that medical school should basically redress itself into making everyone able to practice primary care by the end of it, like the old days. Four years of school, maybe five, should be plenty to teach someone how to start doing it. Residency matches into specialties would be like job applications. The whole match ceremony thing is a bit unprofessional and gaudy. It's like a hillbilly wedding.

As for your PhD friend, either she's pissed because she tried to get into med, couldn't do it, and thought the PhD would be the next thing to do and realized a bit too late that nobody cares about PhDs. There is no higher honor in being a PhD, and they rarely provide anything of immediate practical value that warrants payment. There are too many of them, and the barrier for entry is abysmally low, thus they are considered on a lower intellectual and societal level than physicians. Within medical specialties, the family doc is generally considered a lesser physician than the neurosurgeon due to entry barriers and rarity. Now compare physicians to NFL players; they're more prestigious because what they do has even higher barriers to entry and is even more rare.

 

[bakedbeans18]

I think match day is a bit superfluous and is an illustration of the major problem that exists in medical education: it is based on century-old outdated recommendations that do not train students sufficiently for practice in the modern world. I don't know about anyone else, but by the end of medical school I felt like there was so much I missed out on, not because medicine is so broad, but because the general curriculum was insufficient.

Plus, there really is no reason for a medical student to really learn how to, say, deliver a baby or take a psych history if they're going into rads or something, other than to suck up to their preceptor. In essence, medical school doesn't teach you how to be a doctor, its just another hoop to jump through to get to residency, where you really learn how to be one. Most people never actually use what they learn in a practical way.

I am of the opinion that medical school should basically redress itself into making everyone able to practice primary care by the end of it, like the old days. Four years of school, maybe five, should be plenty to teach someone how to start doing it. Residency matches into specialties would be like job applications. The whole match ceremony thing is a bit unprofessional and gaudy. It's like a hillbilly wedding.

As for your PhD friend, she's pissed because nobody cares about PhDs. There is no largesse to being a PhD. There are too many of them, and the barrier for entry is abysmally low, this they are considered on a lower intellectual and societal level than physicians. Within medical specialties, the family doc is generally considered a lesser physician than the neurosurgeon due to entry barriers and rarity. Now compare physicians to NFL players; they're more prestigious because what they do has even higher barriers to entry and is even more rare.

Sounds like you just volunteered to pay for a 5th year of medical education for me. Thanks pal!

 

[Substance]

Sounds like you just volunteered to pay for a 5th year of medical education for me. Thanks pal!

The debt issue is one that needs to be addressed. For one, I have not seen the breakdown for where our tuition money actually went. People like to say how expensive it is to train a medical student, but what are the numbers? Or is it because competition and interest for getting into medical school is so high that universities can damn well charge whatever the markets will bear?

One of the big problems is the student loan inflation issue. Colleges charge more, student loans meet the charges, so colleges charge even more, and so on.

As for the fifth year thing I mentioned, it would be like a residency and you'd be paid for it. Three years of med school and two years of residency. That'd be enough to make people primary care docs, easily. It's that long up here if you go into family med from Mac or Calgary, and nobody's getting killed.

 

[DermViser]

You know what, my intention with this thread was not to incite a debate about MD vs. PhD or post-doc vs. resident, graduate student vs. medical student, but after seeing some of the responses to my OP, and the above quoted especially, I'm done being overtly tactful and sympathetic towards PhD's - students and established researchers alike. I'm sorry that no one with the exception of maybe 20 people in the world care about the specific problem you are trying to solve. Yes, cancer is a big deal. Not every cancer patient nor medical or surgical oncologist will necessarily stand to benefit from your studies of hypermethylation of proto-oncogenes involved with ependymomas, or heritable mutations in TERT promoters that lead to intractable melanomas. I, just as much as the next person, understand how much medicine is underscored by scientific research. That doesn't mean I need to thank you for what you do or tolerate your assertion that because I chose a different path to make my mark on society I am somehow inferior to you because I am not attempting to "answer questions that noone has yet dared to answer."

MD or bust.

FTR: I had actually been debating whether or not I wanted to apply internally to our MD/PhD program. I think I just figured out the answer to that one.

[end rant]

An MD/PhD is good for 2 reasons: 1) completely paid tuition and stipend 2) Big plus for certin competitive speciaties - i.e. Rad Onc and Derm for example.

 

[bakedbeans18]

An MD/PhD is good for 2 reasons: 1) completely paid tuition and stipend 2) Big plus for certin competitive speciaties - i.e. Rad Onc and Derm for example.

Yes, but I am: 1) 26 going on 27 and 2) interested in internal medicine (or possibly a subspecialty of IM, if I don't tire of the rat race)

 

[DermViser]

Yes, but I am: 1) 26 going on 27 and 2) interested in internal medicine (or possibly a subspecialty of IM, if I don't tire of the rat race)

Oh, then an MD/PhD is completely unnecessary for IM.

 

[deleted500612]

I guess I need to reiterate that if your schedule on Match Day consists solely of your school's ceremony, then you're doing it wrong, assuming you did - in fact - match.

As to the rest, I'm a little at a loss for words. That may be the most #participationtrophygeneration post ever made. Not everyone can be happy so let's not have any public celebration? Do you also really hate weddings because there might be some unmarried or divorced people there?

I am definitely not a participation trophy kind of person by any stretch of the imagination, I think you misinterpreted my comment somewhat. I simply don't feel it is necessary or professional to broadcast everyone's results in a corny ceremony, that doesn't mean I don't think we should have public celebrations for people matching. Nor does not having a ceremony make med school any less competitive, as the real prize is in getting the residency placement in the first place, not having your match results announced to the world in a gaudy display. Thus the analogy of scrapping the match ceremony being akin to giving everyone a participation trophy is not a good or accurate analogy, since whoever gets the most desirable placement has clearly gotten the gold medal regardless of having a ceremony or not. Your comment about weddings is just getting into full-fledged strawman territory, so I won't even rectify that with a response.

The US is the only country in the world that even has a match ceremony as far as I know, it's not like its an important part of med school, and it certainly doesn't change our capacity to celebrate the occasion and it doesn't make the day any more or less special. All it does is turn graduation into another ego-driven affair where everyone is overly concerned about how well they matched compared to everyone else, like the typical gunner asking what everyone else scored on an exam just so they can tell you they did better. I'd rather just worry about myself and celebrate the day with friends and classmates for what it is - the next big milestone in our medical careers, not an occasion to watch a bunch of people have a circle jerk over how good their residency placements are compared to Jenny's, Kevin's or Joe's.

 

[Arkangeloid]

<shrug> I was over 21 and had no reason to keep anything from them.

Then again, I'm not getting wasted (but even if I did, it wouldn't be a big deal in front of family. He'll it'd probably be safer since I have someone who cares about me watching out.)

Heh, my parents never let me drink even after I turned 21, and they hate me with a passion after I failed Anatomy, so I'd rather stay off their radar.

As for smoking, I don't smoke, but I know a few students in my class who took up cigarettes after medical school began.

As for your PhD friend, she's pissed because nobody cares about PhDs. There is no largesse to being a PhD. There are too many of them, and the barrier for entry is abysmally low, this they are considered on a lower intellectual and societal level than physicians. Within medical specialties, the family doc is generally considered a lesser physician than the neurosurgeon due to entry barriers and rarity. Now compare physicians to NFL players; they're more prestigious because what they do has even higher barriers to entry and is even more rare.

Well, you'll have to define prestige. Neurosurgery certainly has the highest prestige among the public (and preclinical medical students apparently), thanks to Grey's Anatomy. I cannot comment among its prestige among physicians. But there are specialties more competitive than Neurosurgery that are not as prestigious amongst laypeople, like Uro or PRS, just because they aren't romanticized by a long-running TV franchise.

Regardless, I do not think we can reduce prestige to just entry barriers.

As for prestige among physicians, I have no doubt that FP and Psych are at the bottom, but I think that has to do more with the nature of their work than how competitive it is to enter them. As one senior student explained to me, "Psych is a bunch of bull," and from what I've heard, many physicians share her sentiment.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Heh, my parents never let me drink even after I turned 21, and they hate me with a passion after I failed Anatomy, so I'd rather stay off their radar.

As for smoking, I don't smoke, but I know a few students in my class who took up cigarettes after medical school began.

I can understand not wanting to upset your parents but at the age of 21 you're an adult, so them not "letting" you drink sounds a bit unusual to me. Clearly my parents and I have a different relationship than you do with yours. FWIW, I've never been a smoker and probably drank more alcohol in college before I was 21 than after.

Well, you'll have to define prestige. Neurosurgery certainly has the highest prestige among the public (and preclinical medical students apparently), thanks to Grey's Anatomy. I cannot comment among its prestige among physicians. But there are specialties more competitive than Neurosurgery that are not as prestigious amongst laypeople, like Uro or PRS, just because they aren't romanticized by a long-running TV franchise.

Regardless, I do not think we can reduce prestige to just entry barriers.

As for prestige among physicians, I have no doubt that FP and Psych are at the bottom, but I think that has to do more with the nature of their work than how competitive it is to enter them. As one senior student explained to me, "Psych is a bunch of bull," and from what I've heard, many physicians share her sentiment.

Please edit your post as the above response appears to be in reference to a quote from another user; I never made the comment about PhDs being pissed but the way you've quoted it, it appears to be from me.

 

[bakedbeans18]

I can understand not wanting to upset your parents but at the age of 21 you're an adult, so them not "letting" you drink sounds a bit unusual to me. My parents and I have a different relationship than you do with yours. FWIW, I've never been a smoker and probably drank more alcohol in college before I was 21 than after.

Story of my life, then I turned 21. 🙂

 

[evilbooyaa]

The lack of grant funding in the US is hurting PhDs, no doubt.

Interesting discussion about match day - I do get the opinion that it lets the gunners out gun one more day. However, the ceremony is really not a big deal. The better part is the post-match party and seeing most if not all your classmates together for one final drunken hurrah. Graduation and commencent will have much more of a parent presence, so there won't be a post-graduation rager (most likely). Our school didn't allow parents on match day, so most parents held off from coming until the next day or just until graduation. Obviously every student called their parents to tell them where they matched.

 

[bakedbeans18]

The lack of grant funding in the US is hurting PhDs, no doubt.

Interesting discussion about match day - I do get the opinion that it lets the gunners out gun one more day. However, the ceremony is really not a big deal. The better part is the post-match party and seeing most if not all your classmates together for one final drunken hurrah. Graduation and commencent will have much more of a parent presence, so there won't be a post-graduation rager (most likely). Our school didn't allow parents on match day, so most parents held off from coming until the next day or just until graduation. Obviously every student called their parents to tell them where they matched.

My momma bear is gonna have to google me to find out where I match🤣
#estranged #notreally #butsortofactually

 

[Nasrudin]

Heh, my parents never let me drink even after I turned 21, and they hate me with a passion after I failed Anatomy, so I'd rather stay off their radar.

As for smoking, I don't smoke, but I know a few students in my class who took up cigarettes after medical school began.





Well, you'll have to define prestige. Neurosurgery certainly has the highest prestige among the public (and preclinical medical students apparently), thanks to Grey's Anatomy. I cannot comment among its prestige among physicians. But there are specialties more competitive than Neurosurgery that are not as prestigious amongst laypeople, like Uro or PRS, just because they aren't romanticized by a long-running TV franchise.

Regardless, I do not think we can reduce prestige to just entry barriers.

As for prestige among physicians, I have no doubt that FP and Psych are at the bottom, but I think that has to do more with the nature of their work than how competitive it is to enter them. As one senior student explained to me, "Psych is a bunch of bull," and from what I've heard, many physicians share her sentiment.

First. Grow some sack. You're an American man in your prime. You're wasting it. Deciding how to spend your Friday evenings by tribal consensus is just f'n weird to us.

With regards to psych. It's an uphill battle that our patients face in getting good care. One that is made worse by the distaste of many for doing it.

As a physician I expect more from you. If you have issues with the knowledge foundation of psych you have to express it in more sophisticated ways than..."psych is stupid!" Which seems disappointingly common amongst medical students. And even more common in certain cultural subsets therein.