No longer scoring step exams

[nopain1234]

Not sure if this has been posted yet. What are your thoughts on step exams no longer being scored? Further, what are your thoughts as to why they would make this decision.

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[bedrock]

Not sure if this has been posted yet. What are your thoughts on step exams no longer being scored? Further, what are your thoughts as to why they would make this decision.

Liberal BS. Further decline of meritocracy.

This is due to minorities not achieving the same high scores as white/Asians so they eliminate the test.

 

[nopain1234]

Liberal BS. Further decline of meritocracy.

This is due to minorities not achieving the same high scores as white/Asians so they eliminate the test.

Couldn’t agree more. We now will have neurosurgeons with 180s

Great scores on these exams show 1) intelligence and 2) work ethic

 

[SpineandWine]

Maybe step scores didn’t predict residency performance?
Hopefully now it won’t be just based on school reputation and letters of recommendation with someone who does clinical research but does not clinically practice.

 

[RoloTomassi]

A lot of programs are relying on Step 2 scores. Gunners are taking it early

 

[Meyer-Overton]

Yeah I don't really understand the point of making step 1 P/F because all of the importance shifts to step 2. One could argue that Step 2 is more clinically oriented and perhaps a better predictor of residency performance but I don't know for sure. Im sure there are people who want to make it all P/F so that we can all be more equal or some nonsense

 

[Agast]

Does a neurosurgeon actually need to be smarter than an internist? Or a general surgeon? Do we need the best and brightest to represent plastic surgery and not pediatrics?

I think programs should be allowed to be as selective as they want, I just think there’s something alarming about the idea that

1) medical students who score near the bottom are stupid

2) stupid medical students should go into primary care, which is actually a pretty important area of medicine

 

[Ferrismonk]

Honestly, I think this is a non-issue unless the person wishes to do research. In my experience, clinical acumen has almost nothing to do with step 1 scores.

 

[gaspasser127]

1) it shifts the stress that was previously shared between step 1 and step 2 directly onto step 2. So if you bomb step 2, you don’t have the opportunity to have a good step 1 score bail you out.

2) why stop at step 1? Why not all step exams? Why not make the MCAT pass/fail?

3) i agree that step exams don’t correlate to clinical acumen, intelligence, or work ethic. They only are indicative of test taking ability. So ultimately… you could make an argument that none of the exams matter that much. But at the end of the day we are humans living in an imperfect world using imperfect data points to make educated opinions about people and situations.

 

[nopain1234]

Does a neurosurgeon actually need to be smarter than an internist? Or a general surgeon? Do we need the best and brightest to represent plastic surgery and not pediatrics?

I think programs should be allowed to be as selective as they want, I just think there’s something alarming about the idea that

1) medical students who score near the bottom are stupid

2) stupid medical students should go into primary care, which is actually a pretty important area of medicine

Uh yes, a neurosurgeon needs to be smarter than an internist….

 

[runfastnow]

Uh yes, a neurosurgeon needs to be smarter than an internist…

That's like saying an F-15 pilot is inherently better pilot/smarter than a C-17, B-2, U-2, etc. pilot because a movie makes the F-15 look cool. Different skillsets, different demands, different lifestyles, but all basically the same bar to cross ... if you have 'it' you will be successful and it depends on the mission you want to do.

Smartest physician I've ever met was an IM/renal guy. All surgeons in the hospital listened to him. Know plenty of neurosurgeons I wouldn't let remove a skin tag off me.

 

[Agast]

Uh yes, a neurosurgeon needs to be smarter than an internist….

Why?

The internist needs to be a good diagnostician. A surgeon has the structural problem spelt out for them. They are not doing exploratory work.

 

[Chn96]

I heard that foreign medical graduates coming up with high scores on Steps exam, effecting overall scoring system, so organisation come up with pass/ fail reporting of exam…

 

[nopain1234]

Why?

The internist needs to be a good diagnostician. A surgeon has the structural problem spelt out for them. They are not doing exploratory work.

Bc a NS has to perform/treat ultra complex surgeries/pathologies. The best of the best are neurosurgeons for a reason.

I’ve worked in ICUs/wards and their work is pretty basic. That’s why basically ANYONE can match into IM.

 

[nopain1234]

That's like saying an F-15 pilot is inherently better pilot/smarter than a C-17, B-2, U-2, etc. pilot because a movie makes the F-15 look cool. Different skillsets, different demands, different lifestyles, but all basically the same bar to cross ... if you have 'it' you will be successful and it depends on the mission you want to do.

Smartest physician I've ever met was an IM/renal guy. All surgeons in the hospital listened to him. Know plenty of neurosurgeons I wouldn't let remove a skin tag off me.

Dumb

 

[nopain1234]

Every neurosurgeon I know could be an internist. No internist I know could be a neurosurgeon.

 

[runfastnow]

Dumb

I guess that settles it then.

 

[lobelsteve]

Every neurosurgeon I know could be an internist. No internist I know could be a neurosurgeon.

You need to get out and meet more doctors.

 

[MitchLevi]

I would prefer certain doctors have higher STEP exams than others.

That doesn't mean you've got good hands or that you'll even be good at your job, bit certain fields of medicine should have significant barriers to entry.

Some of yall act like yall didn't know a few guys and gals in your med school class that weren't completely and totally incompetent, and the vast majority of the time they scored at the very bottom on exams. Those ppl can't cut my brain.

 

[Baron Samedi]

Smartest dude in my med school class (270something) went into internal medicine.

 

[nopain1234]

Smartest dude in my med school class (270something) went into internal medicine.

There are always exceptions

The dudes to smoked step 1 were always incredibly high level

 

[Iamnew2]

Liberal BS. Further decline of meritocracy.

This is due to minorities not achieving the same high scores as white/Asians so they eliminate the test.

*eye roll*
There are less than 6% of doctors who are Hispanic and about 5% of doctors who are African American which makes close to 90% of doctors white/Asian.
As a *minority* I don't remember being given the "easy" exams or being given anything for free or taking any exams that were any different than my white/Asian counterparts. To suggest that us *minorities* are somehow stupid or being given things because we are minorities is highly offensive and honestly ignorant. We take the exact same curriculum as everyone else. Many of us have different languages as our first languages, etc. as well. Do me the favor of not generalizing us *minorities.*

 

[swamprat]

*eye roll*
There are less than 6% of doctors who are Hispanic and about 5% of doctors who are African American which makes close to 90% of doctors white/Asian.
As a *minority* I don't remember being given the "easy" exams or being given anything for free or taking any exams that were any different than my white/Asian counterparts. To suggest that us *minorities* are somehow stupid or being given things because we are minorities is highly offensive and honestly ignorant. We take the exact same curriculum as everyone else. Many of us have different languages as our first languages, etc. as well. Do me the favor of not generalizing us *minorities.*

You know anecdotally I experienced first hand an african american woman score a 19 on MCAT and get admitted and scholaraship to a medical school that I got rejected from. State school. I tutored her. Regardless whether MCAT score matters or not for furture success in med school - that is completely bullsh*t

 

[Iamnew2]

You know anecdotally I experienced first hand an african american woman score a 19 on MCAT and get admitted and scholaraship to a medical school that I got rejected from. State school. I tutored her. Regardless whether MCAT score matters or not for furture success in med school - that is completely bullsh*t

Umm and I'm sure every white and Asian student did perfectly on every exam and no one got admitted as a "legacy" or because of some connection right? Give me a break. I got rejected at places where other people who were non-minorities with far inferior qualifications were admitted. Life happens. I'm not sure how your anecdotal experience make any difference.

 

[Agast]

The one guy who failed step 1 in my class was Asian. People would probably think now that he did better than the black women in my class, and they would be wrong…

 

[nopain1234]

You need to get out and meet more doctors.

I know plenty

 

[nopain1234]

Umm and I'm sure every white and Asian student did perfectly on every exam and no one got admitted as a "legacy" or because of some connection right? Give me a break. I got rejected at places where other people who were non-minorities with far inferior qualifications were admitted. Life happens. I'm not sure how your anecdotal experience make any difference.

I think it’s pretty much common knowledge which situation is the exception and which is the rule…

Every “legacy” applicant I know, which happens to be over a dozen, was accepted on his or her own merits. One of which was my sister whom our dad was faculty for over 30 years at the medical school. In fact, she was wait listed twice and accepted the third time. Her GPA and MCAT was above average. And this particular institution was in one of those “racist” southern states.

 

[bedrock]

I

Umm and I'm sure every white and Asian student did perfectly on every exam and no one got admitted as a "legacy" or because of some connection right? Give me a break. I got rejected at places where other people who were non-minorities with far inferior qualifications were admitted. Life happens. I'm not sure how your anecdotal experience make any difference.

*eye roll*
There are less than 6% of doctors who are Hispanic and about 5% of doctors who are African American which makes close to 90% of doctors white/Asian.
As a *minority* I don't remember being given the "easy" exams or being given anything for free or taking any exams that were any different than my white/Asian counterparts. To suggest that us *minorities* are somehow stupid or being given things because we are minorities is highly offensive and honestly ignorant. We take the exact same curriculum as everyone else. Many of us have different languages as our first languages, etc. as well. Do me the favor of not generalizing us *minorities.*

There are very few legacy admissions to medical school. Undergrad is a different matter. However, I'm 100% in favor of banning legacy admissions of any kind at any level. I'm also 100% in favor of banning affirmative action at any educational level.

Undergrad/grad school admissions and job offers should be based solely on merit not on race or sex.

The simple fact is that the overwhelming majority of white/Asian applicants are not legacy applicants, and the overwhelming majority of white/Asian applicants suffer an enormous competitive disadvantage compared to minority applicants for the past 40 years.

Another indisputable fact is that a significant proportion of admissions to graduate schools are given to applicants who otherwise don't deserve to be admitted, over the applicants who couldn't check the one of the preferred demographic boxes on their forms. If you truly don't see this, then yes you are not that intelligent, and no you didn't deserve to get into medical school.

You turned up your nose at the story from swamp rat regarding the black woman with a 19 MCAT who got admitted and a scholarship for the same medical school, that rejected him. Sorry buddy, but there are thousands of these "anecdotal" stories,at which point they become indisputable evidence. However, these thousand of stories across the last 40 years are suppressed by the far left media who have propaganda to push, not news to objectively report.

I'll add my own anecdote. It was twice as hard for a straight white male to be accepted there than a minority at my US med school. During my time there, 4 students failed out of my medical school. All 4 failures were minorities. None of the caucasians/Asians were remotely close to failing out of medical school because they had to be so much stronger academically, than those minority applicants for whom the standards had been lowered.

Of course this doesn't mean that Caucasians/Asians are more intelligent than minorities. Many minority physicians are as smart and as skilled as their causaian/Asian classmates...or smarter. The second smartest person in my med school was an hispanic female. Academically, she definitely bested me and most of the other students. However, the standards were clearly lowered for the other minorities who failed out of my med school and ..............no they didn't deserve to be admitted in the first place over more qualified white/Asian applicants, who were the victims of institutional racism.

The Supreme Court will finally put an end to affirmative action later this year and I will be thrilled when that day finally arrives.

I believe in equal opportunity for all based on their intelligence and effort, not extra privileges for whomever whines the most.

 

[Iamnew2]

I


There are very few legacy admissions to medical school. Undergrad is a different matter. However, I'm 100% in favor of banning legacy admissions of any kind at any level. I'm also 100% in favor of banning affirmative action at any educational level.

Undergrad/grad school admissions and job offers should be based solely on merit not on race or sex.

The simple fact is that the overwhelming majority of white applicants are not legacy applicants, and and the overwhelming majority of white applicants suffer an enormous competitive disadvantage compared to minority applicants for the past 40 years.

Another indisputable fact that a significant proportion of admissions to graduate schools are given to applicants who otherwise don't deserve to be admitted, over the applicants who couldn't check the one of the preferred demographic boxes on their forms. If you truly don't see this, then yes you are not that intelligent, and no you didn't deserve to get into medical school.

You turned up your nose at the story from swamp rat regarding the black woman with a 19 MCAT who got admitted and a scholarship for the same medical school, that rejected him. Sorry buddy, but there are thousands of these "anecdotal" stories,at which point they become indisputable evidence. However, these thousand of stories across the last 40 years are suppressed by the far left media who have propaganda to push, not news to objectively report.

I'll add my own anecdote. It was twice as hard for a straight white male to be accepted there than a minority at my US med school. During my time there, 4 students failed out of my medical school. All 4 failures were minorities. None of the caucasians were remotely close to failing out of medical school because they had to be so much stronger academically, than those minority applicants for whom the standards had been lowered.

Of course this doesn't mean that Caucasians are more intelligent than minorities. Many minority physicians are as smart and as skilled as their causaian classmates...or smarter. The second smartest person in my med school was an hispanic female. Academically, she definitely bested me and most of the other Caucasians. However, the standards were clearly lowered for the other minorities who failed out of my med school and ..............no they didn't deserve to be admitted in the first place over more qualified white applicants, who were the victims of institutional racism.

The Supreme Court will finally put an end to affirmative action later this year and I'm thrilled.

I believe in equal opportunity for all based on their intelligence and effort, not extra privileges for whomever whines the most.

By your own statements then, there should be much more than ~10% of "minority" physicians in the US if all it takes if for a minority applicant to just apply to med school and they are in. I know plenty of "minority" applicants who got rejected and never made it in. You think minority physicians are not targeted in both med school and residency and beyond? I'm at a majority white prestigious institution now - I'm the only minority in my department. None of my colleagues - male or female have the qualifications or record that I do. Every leadership position in the echelons at the institution is held by a white or Asian male. I guess by your thinking, I should become president of the institution in no time then if all it takes is applying!
This is such a dangerous and unhealthy perspective. The minute amount of minority physicians in med school should show you how difficult it is for minorities to make - not that every minority applicant is just welcomed in with open arms. You truly sound like an angry white guy. Truly sad. My ex-husband when he wouldn't get a job he applied for or didn't get a grade he wanted would complain about "racism" - when the facts would come out, it was clear why he didn't get the desired results. The only person you are hurting by this hateful rhetoric is you. Thinking that all minorities somehow just "get in" is the typical sad hateful racism that we all deal with. Have a good day.

 

[epidural man]

Bc a NS has to perform/treat ultra complex surgeries/pathologies. The best of the best are neurosurgeons for a reason.

I’ve worked in ICUs/wards and their work is pretty basic. That’s why basically ANYONE can match into IM.

I disagree. Neurosurgery takes no brain power. It takes a lot of training that requires a very specific skill set.

This discussion is silly.

The mental dexterity demand of the chosen field is not what drives people to the field. It has always been money. High paying jobs are the highest demand and so with traditional measuring sticks (test scores), this drives the smartest to them. After years of this, I suspect people then start to assume that it takes the smartest to be that physician.

Honestly, the smartest people should do anesthesia. . That is the most Intellectually challenging field, OBVIOUSLY.

 

[epidural man]

By your own statements then, there should be much more than ~10% of "minority" physicians in the US if all it takes if for a minority applicant to just apply to med school and they are in. I know plenty of "minority" applicants who got rejected and never made it in. You think minority physicians are not targeted in both med school and residency and beyond? I'm at a majority white prestigious institution now - I'm the only minority in my department. None of my colleagues - male or female have the qualifications or record that I do. Every leadership position in the echelons at the institution is held by a white or Asian male. I guess by your thinking, I should become president of the institution in no time then if all it takes is applying!
This is such a dangerous and unhealthy perspective. The minute amount of minority physicians in med school should show you how difficult it is for minorities to make - not that every minority applicant is just welcomed in with open arms. You truly sound like an angry white guy. Truly sad. My ex-husband when he wouldn't get a job he applied for or didn't get a grade he wanted would complain about "racism" - when the facts would come out, it was clear why he didn't get the desired results. The only person you are hurting by this hateful rhetoric is you. Thinking that all minorities somehow just "get in" is the typical sad hateful racism that we all deal with. Have a good day.

Can we agree the situation is complex?

I don’t think Bedrock is a white angry dude in the sense you are referring to.

I don’t know why there is such a low misrepresentation of certain minorities in the medical field. That is a problem. I think EVERYONE can agree to that.

But bedrock’s point - which is an excellent point - is that to answer this problem, lowering standards for entrance is a HORRIBLE SOLUTION and will actually make (and has made) the problem worse.

Now you may make the point that standards have not been lowered to help minorities. That may be true but I doubt it. It seems clear that in some cases (but not all as you point out), it seems to happen.

 

[Iamnew2]

Can we agree the situation is complex?

I don’t think Bedrock is a white angry dude in the sense you are referring to.

I don’t know why there is such a low misrepresentation of certain minorities in the medical field. That is a problem. I think EVERYONE can agree to that.

But bedrock’s point - which is an excellent point - is that to answer this problem, lowering standards for entrance is a HORRIBLE SOLUTION and will actually make (and has made) the problem worse.

Now you may make the point that standards have not been lowered to help minorities. That may be true but I doubt it. It seems clear that in some cases (but not all as you point out), it seems to happen.

The situation is complex, agreed. Bedrock does sound like an angry white man. That's my opinion. I agree entirely that academic standards should be the same across the board. Even objectively since there is such a tiny amount of minorities in med school, clearly the changes in Step 1 wasn't made for minorities was it? If 90% of US physicians are non-minorities and about 10% are Hispanic/African American, clearly it would far benefit non-minorities to make changes to the steps far more than minorities. If 9 or so out of 10 people in med school are non-minorities, who would care to make such a drastic change to help the 1 out of 10? Nonsensical. I didn't fail step 1. I don't know any of my minority classmates/Hispanic residents who did either. Did we get the "dumb" version of step 1? The change in the steps was made because of the toxicity that it brought and the stress levels that it brought to med students in general. Not to mention, if minorities were not qualified, they would get flushed out of the system - there are so many ways someone can fail in their path to completion of med school/residency/practice, that it's not even funny. I think standards have been lowered in general for everyone because we are becoming a soft society. Even residency in general has become so much softer. I know residency programs that barely have residents take call these days, or attending are expected to write notes, residents can't round post call, residents don't work weekends, etc. It's not just for hispanic residents or African American residents - it's for all residents.
The CS component was also dropped - I passed CS on my first try. I don't know a single of my hispanic colleagues who failed it. I know plenty of non-minority people who failed it, even multiple times.
So to be hateful to colleagues in the field simply flames toxic rhetoric and does a tremendous disservice to others.
With that I'm done with this conversation.

 

[Agast]

These threads don’t end until the same 3 people post their life stories and vent their spleen

 

[Baron Samedi]

What does P/F Steps have to do with medical school admissions? Do pre-med students take Steps now?

Or are we just using this as a launching pad for complaining about things we don't like?

 

[bedrock]

The situation is complex, agreed. Bedrock does sound like an angry white man. That's my opinion. I agree entirely that academic standards should be the same across the board. Even objectively since there is such a tiny amount of minorities in med school, clearly the changes in Step 1 wasn't made for minorities was it? If 90% of US physicians are non-minorities and about 10% are Hispanic/African American, clearly it would far benefit non-minorities to make changes to the steps far more than minorities. If 9 or so out of 10 people in med school are non-minorities, who would care to make such a drastic change to help the 1 out of 10? Nonsensical. I didn't fail step 1. I don't know any of my minority classmates/Hispanic residents who did either. Did we get the "dumb" version of step 1? The change in the steps was made because of the toxicity that it brought and the stress levels that it brought to med students in general. Not to mention, if minorities were not qualified, they would get flushed out of the system - there are so many ways someone can fail in their path to completion of med school/residency/practice, that it's not even funny. I think standards have been lowered in general for everyone because we are becoming a soft society. Even residency in general has become so much softer. I know residency programs that barely have residents take call these days, or attending are expected to write notes, residents can't round post call, residents don't work weekends, etc. It's not just for hispanic residents or African American residents - it's for all residents.
The CS component was also dropped - I passed CS on my first try. I don't know a single of my hispanic colleagues who failed it. I know plenty of non-minority people who failed it, even multiple times.
So to be hateful to colleagues in the field simply flames toxic rhetoric and does a tremendous disservice to others.
With that I'm done with this conversation.

You sound like you are a competent physician, but also like a delusional minority woman living only in your little echo chamber.

I notice you didn't even comment on my statement regarding the black individual who was able to "fail into" a Harvard residency after flunking out of an orthopedic residency. Because you choose not to see what might harm your self esteem, and so continue on in your echo chamber.

The problem is that by lowering standards for all minorities, and particularly minority women, it makes their competence suspect. That is very unfair for the minority physicians who truly earned their way and deserve to respected the same as other physicians. Hopefully that is you.

The way to solve all of this is clear. Eliminate all legacy admissions and all affirmative action. Fortunately, that should be coming later this year.

 

[epidural man]

The situation is complex, agreed. Bedrock does sound like an angry white man. That's my opinion. I agree entirely that academic standards should be the same across the board. Even objectively since there is such a tiny amount of minorities in med school, clearly the changes in Step 1 wasn't made for minorities was it? If 90% of US physicians are non-minorities and about 10% are Hispanic/African American, clearly it would far benefit non-minorities to make changes to the steps far more than minorities. If 9 or so out of 10 people in med school are non-minorities, who would care to make such a drastic change to help the 1 out of 10? Nonsensical. I didn't fail step 1. I don't know any of my minority classmates/Hispanic residents who did either. Did we get the "dumb" version of step 1? The change in the steps was made because of the toxicity that it brought and the stress levels that it brought to med students in general. Not to mention, if minorities were not qualified, they would get flushed out of the system - there are so many ways someone can fail in their path to completion of med school/residency/practice, that it's not even funny. I think standards have been lowered in general for everyone because we are becoming a soft society. Even residency in general has become so much softer. I know residency programs that barely have residents take call these days, or attending are expected to write notes, residents can't round post call, residents don't work weekends, etc. It's not just for hispanic residents or African American residents - it's for all residents.
The CS component was also dropped - I passed CS on my first try. I don't know a single of my hispanic colleagues who failed it. I know plenty of non-minority people who failed it, even multiple times.
So to be hateful to colleagues in the field simply flames toxic rhetoric and does a tremendous disservice to others.
With that I'm done with this conversation.

Excellent post and great points.

I would only make a suggestion that when you say things like “toxic rhetoric” or “to be hateful to colleagues” - it actually does the thing you feel like you are railing against.

Nothing bedrock said seemed toxic or hateful to me because I feel like I understood his point. I feel like I understood your point as well.

All I’m saying is we could all try to understand that often what seems to be hateful from someone (and this is especially true for physicians) is probably a misunderstanding of how WE read or heard what was said. We can disagree on points, but it is best to assume there wasn’t mal-intent.

 

[Iamnew2]

What does P/F Steps have to do with medical school admissions? Do pre-med students take Steps now?

Or are we just using this as a launching pad for complaining about things we don't like?

Apparently there is a big scam by med schools now to help those of us who are minorities because 1- none of us apparently deserve to get into med school (I guess all standards were dumbed down for us) and we have committed the horrible action of taking a non-minority's spot! Oh no!
2- because we apparently can't pass any exams on our own (weird that we get the same exams as others though)

 

[Iamnew2]

You sound like you are a competent physician, but also like a delusional minority woman living only in your little echo chamber.

I notice you didn't even comment on my statement regarding the black individual who was able to "fail into" a Harvard residency after flunking out of an orthopedic residency. Because you choose not to see what might harm your self esteem, and so continue on in your echo chamber.

The problem is that by lowering standards for all minorities, and particularly minority women, it makes their competence suspect. That is very unfair for the minority physicians who truly earned their way and deserve to respected the same as other physicians. Hopefully that is you.

The way to solve all of this is clear. Eliminate all legacy admissions and all affirmative action. Fortunately, that should be coming later this year.

Anyone who is competent knows that anecdotal experiences are useless. For one, I don't know the specifics of your statement so it is meaningless. I had a white as snow classmate in medical school who couldn't get through the curriculum int he allotted time - he finally completed med school in I think 7.5 or 8 years I forget - no additional degrees. Despite the fact that anyone normally not completing med school in I believe 7 years would get kicked out. Should I know make inferences about every white physician? Of course not. There are stupid and incompetent people in every possible field out there. And FYI- Orthopedics is notoriously racist and sexist. I've seen plenty of atrocious things done by Orthopedic physicians and departments. It is a white all boy's club. So any non-white non male person in Ortho will have a hell of a time.

Oh and for the record - I again will state that agree that all people should get in by their own merits. There are farrrrrr more legacy/connection/daddy donated a bunch of money to get into x undergrad/medschool, whatever than what you claim. I even read a recent article briefly about a lawsuit by a resident whose daddy paid 400k to get into residency, and he I guess flunked out of residency (and I guess they didn't want to give the money back) but that's another story.

 

[Iamnew2]

Excellent post and great points.

I would only make a suggestion that when you say things like “toxic rhetoric” or “to be hateful to colleagues” - it actually does the thing you feel like you are railing against.

Nothing bedrock said seemed toxic or hateful to me because I feel like I understood his point. I feel like I understood your point as well.

All I’m saying is we could all try to understand that often what seems to be hateful from someone (and this is especially true for physicians) is probably a misunderstanding of how WE read or heard what was said. We can disagree on points, but it is best to assume there wasn’t mal-intent.

When someone is stating that another physician is not competent because of their ethnicity or skin color - that is the definition of toxic and hateful.
If a colleague of mine does something stupid, negligent, out of line, etc. - I will think of them as less competent due to their incompetent/inept actions, not because of the color of their skin.
It's ironic and hypocritical to state that he questions the competency of female/minority physicians not because of their clinical actions but rather because of their ethnicity - talk about horrifying hateful statement.

 

[epidural man]

When someone is stating that another physician is not competent because of their ethnicity or skin color - that is the definition of toxic and hateful.
If a colleague of mine does something stupid, negligent, out of line, etc. - I will think of them as less competent due to their incompetent/inept actions, not because of the color of their skin.
It's ironic and hypocritical to state that he questions the competency of female/minority physicians not because of their clinical actions but rather because of their ethnicity - talk about horrifying hateful statement.

I totally agree. When someone states another physician is not competent based SOLELY on skin color - that is hateful.

Thankfully, NO ONE has said that in this thread. Thank goodness! Wouldn’t that be nuts if someone did that?

 

[bedrock]

Anyone who is competent knows that anecdotal experiences are useless. For one, I don't know the specifics of your statement so it is meaningless. I had a white as snow classmate in medical school who couldn't get through the curriculum int he allotted time - he finally completed med school in I think 7.5 or 8 years I forget - no additional degrees. Despite the fact that anyone normally not completing med school in I believe 7 years would get kicked out. Should I know make inferences about every white physician? Of course not. There are stupid and incompetent people in every possible field out there. And FYI- Orthopedics is notoriously racist and sexist. I've seen plenty of atrocious things done by Orthopedic physicians and departments. It is a white all boy's club. So any non-white non male person in Ortho will have a hell of a time.

Oh and for the record - I again will state that agree that all people should get in by their own merits. There are farrrrrr more legacy/connection/daddy donated a bunch of money to get into x undergrad/medschool, whatever than what you claim. I even read a recent article briefly about a lawsuit by a resident whose daddy paid 400k to get into residency, and he I guess flunked out of residency (and I guess they didn't want to give the money back) but that's another story.

Ancedotal experience isn't useless. Far less valuable than level one study but not useless. Many nobel prize winning ideas started out as an ancedotes.

Standardized tests were first used to give intelligent people from disadvantaged backgrounds, entry into elite schools that were previously only the realm of children of rich/connected parents.

Now liberals want to eliminate these objective measures of performance because they can't handle that some minorities don't score as well as white/asians.

If someone fails a test, the answer is not to eliminate the test. The answer is for that person to work harder and and also to reevaluate themselves if they fail a second time.

Not to be given something they didn't earn.

 

[drusso]

Bc a NS has to perform/treat ultra complex surgeries/pathologies. The best of the best are neurosurgeons for a reason.

I’ve worked in ICUs/wards and their work is pretty basic. That’s why basically ANYONE can match into IM.

When our grandparents were in medical school, it was widely known that the most brilliant medical students went into...psychiatry...

Could you let that sink in?

The Psychoanalytic Tradition in American Psychiatry: The Basics

The long-lasting impact of psychoanalysis on American psychiatry should continue to be taught and celebrated, if only as a testament to the human ability to seek understanding and find meaning in man’s suffering.

www.psychiatrictimes.com

"Psychiatry at this time was attracting the best and brightest medical students, due in large part to the prestige afforded to it by Freudian psychoanalysis coupled with recent groundbreaking discoveries in the field of psychopharmacology by Nathan S. Kline and others. It was an exceptionally exciting time to be a psychiatrist-the possibilities of psychoanalytic understanding and drug treatment seemed endless. In the 1960s, 66% of American psychiatrists were in private practice, up from a mere 8% in 1917."

 

[bedrock]

When someone is stating that another physician is not competent because of their ethnicity or skin color - that is the definition of toxic and hateful.
If a colleague of mine does something stupid, negligent, out of line, etc. - I will think of them as less competent due to their incompetent/inept actions, not because of the color of their skin.
It's ironic and hypocritical to state that he questions the competency of female/minority physicians not because of their clinical actions but rather because of their ethnicity - talk about horrifying hateful statement.

toxic and hateful are just code words that liberals love to use because liberals don't believe in free speech and turn to these code words whenever they can't win an argument on the strength/merit of their ideas.

Sounds like the liberal approach to something else we've been discussing, huh?

 

[epidural man]

When someone is stating that another physician is not competent because of their ethnicity or skin color - that is the definition of toxic and hateful.
If a colleague of mine does something stupid, negligent, out of line, etc. - I will think of them as less competent due to their incompetent/inept actions, not because of the color of their skin.
It's ironic and hypocritical to state that he questions the competency of female/minority physicians not because of their clinical actions but rather because of their ethnicity - talk about horrifying hateful statement.

I have two things for you to watch. I’d be curious what you think.

The first is the recent opening on SNL by Dave Chapelle. I thought it was brilliant. I’d love to hear your take.

The next is an interview of Jon Stewart right after on Stephen Colbert. Jon Steward talks about his take on Chapelle’s opening. I think - he watched something different than what I watched. But he is coming from a different spot.

To me, it highlighted some important talking points.

I’d love a report after you watch those two short bits.

 

[Agast]

I have two things for you to watch. I’d be curious what you think.

The first is the recent opening on SNL by Dave Chapelle. I thought it was brilliant. I’d love to hear your take.

The next is an interview of Jon Stewart right after on Stephen Colbert. Jon Steward talks about his take on Chapelle’s opening. I think - he watched something different than what I watched. But he is coming from a different spot.

To me, it highlighted some important talking points.

I’d love a report after you watch those two short bits.

I know you’re coming from a place of love, but it’s extremely patronizing to assign someone homework like that.

 

[epidural man]

I know you’re coming from a place of love, but it’s extremely patronizing to assign someone homework like that.

well Snap -I don’t want to be condescending.

And thanks for the feedback.

Agast, if you wanted someone to watch a couple of videos so you could discuss, how would you go about doing it without sounding condescending?

 

[bedrock]

I know you’re coming from a place of love, but it’s extremely patronizing to assign someone homework like that.

I agree that epidural man is coming from a place of love. Chapelle is very intelligent, insightful, and funny man. It could be very useful for her to hear his take on things compared to a patronizing white liberal such as Jon Stewart. Jon Stewart is patronizing , not epidural man.

Clearly iamnew2 isn't hearing a single thing I am saying because she is blinded by her echo chamber. I could say the sky is blue right now and she would disagree.

Watching chapelle's SNL opening is something she might actually hear. And watching 10 minutes of comedy isn't exactly homework.

 

[Iamnew2]

I agree that epidural man is coming from a place of love. Chapelle is very intelligent, insightful, and funny man. It could be very useful for her to hear his take on things compared to a patronizing white liberal such as Jon Stewart. Jon Stewart is patronizing here, not epidural man.

Clearly iamnew2 isn't hearing a single thing I am saying because she is blinded by her echo chamber. I could say the sky is blue right now and she would disagree.

Watching chapelle's SNL opening is something she might actually hear. And watching 10 minutes of comedy isn't exactly homework.

Am I not hearing or are you not hearing? I told you I agree that everyone should get in on their own merits. That would destroy most elite universities as tons of people (my understanding is that up to 40% of admissions) to elite undergrads come from some sort of connection/legacy type nonsense.

Do I agree with affirmative action? No I don't. However the goal of affirmative action is to consider that scores for example on standardized tests are not all equal. Does a rich white person have a massive advantage in their parents paying for a private tutor to work with them for however long to prepare them for an MCAT, step or whatever? How does that compare to the poor ethnic person who has to work to get through? Or the person who doesn't speak English as a native speaker? English is a second language for me. My parents for example never gave me an excuse for not succeeding but it's 10 times as difficult to take these types of tests when your native language is not English.

Regardless do you consider the affluent, Native speaking person to be the same as someone who comes from poverty, who has no resources, has to work, etc? That's the whole point of "affirmative action." Does a test make one physician better than another? By that metric, then Dermatologists are the best and brightest.

Do you know that in my native country, Psychiatry is one of the most coveted residencies - it's considered a luxury and a status of wealth to be able to afford a private psychiatrist due to a Freudian influence.

The point being that suggesting that everyone is the same, particularly not taking into account minority circumstances fails to take into account the whole of the person.

You can disagree if you'd like. But you do a disservice to those of us who have worked just as hard as everyone else, who don't have wealthy parents, and have spent countless hours studying, learning, and who take great care of our patients every day. You to tell someone that you are uncertain of the skill set of another physician simply bc they are a minority is just outrageous.

Learn to trust your colleagues by the measure of their skill set - not their ethnicity. Otherwise you are guilty of the same thing you are suggesting you are trying to have admissions committees avoid.

 

[Baron Samedi]

When our grandparents were in medical school, it was widely known that the most brilliant medical students went into...psychiatry...

Could you let that sink in?

The Psychoanalytic Tradition in American Psychiatry: The Basics

The long-lasting impact of psychoanalysis on American psychiatry should continue to be taught and celebrated, if only as a testament to the human ability to seek understanding and find meaning in man’s suffering.

www.psychiatrictimes.com

"Psychiatry at this time was attracting the best and brightest medical students, due in large part to the prestige afforded to it by Freudian psychoanalysis coupled with recent groundbreaking discoveries in the field of psychopharmacology by Nathan S. Kline and others. It was an exceptionally exciting time to be a psychiatrist-the possibilities of psychoanalytic understanding and drug treatment seemed endless. In the 1960s, 66% of American psychiatrists were in private practice, up from a mere 8% in 1917."

I'm sure everyone has read House of God at some point. Maybe they were all onto something...

Though to be honest, that is a tough residency. Way tougher than mine.

 

[nopain1234]

The situation is complex, agreed. Bedrock does sound like an angry white man. That's my opinion. I agree entirely that academic standards should be the same across the board. Even objectively since there is such a tiny amount of minorities in med school, clearly the changes in Step 1 wasn't made for minorities was it? If 90% of US physicians are non-minorities and about 10% are Hispanic/African American, clearly it would far benefit non-minorities to make changes to the steps far more than minorities. If 9 or so out of 10 people in med school are non-minorities, who would care to make such a drastic change to help the 1 out of 10? Nonsensical. I didn't fail step 1. I don't know any of my minority classmates/Hispanic residents who did either. Did we get the "dumb" version of step 1? The change in the steps was made because of the toxicity that it brought and the stress levels that it brought to med students in general. Not to mention, if minorities were not qualified, they would get flushed out of the system - there are so many ways someone can fail in their path to completion of med school/residency/practice, that it's not even funny. I think standards have been lowered in general for everyone because we are becoming a soft society. Even residency in general has become so much softer. I know residency programs that barely have residents take call these days, or attending are expected to write notes, residents can't round post call, residents don't work weekends, etc. It's not just for hispanic residents or African American residents - it's for all residents.
The CS component was also dropped - I passed CS on my first try. I don't know a single of my hispanic colleagues who failed it. I know plenty of non-minority people who failed it, even multiple times.
So to be hateful to colleagues in the field simply flames toxic rhetoric and does a tremendous disservice to others.
With that I'm done with this conversation.

You sound a lot more angry than bed rock…