No pre-req's? Really?

[@Hazel-rah]

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Long content, short question:
I'm not saying you don't need a strong background in math and science, but it seems like a lot of the school websites I visit are saying that they don't have a specific set of prerequisites anymore. Is this for real? Can I maybe skip making up the second semester of physics and last term of o.chem in lieu of a molecular bio or Biochem class when rounding out my transcripts for application?
(FYI, I am already planning to contact or visit with the admissions office at my favorite schools, just wanted to see if any of you knew more about this)

Here are three examples from the admin websites:

Rush University
While we do not require any prerequisite coursework, you are urged to acquire a broad experience in the humanities, as well as in the behavioral and social sciences, during your college years. We highly recommend you have a strong foundation in cellular and molecular biology and biochemistry. Non-science majors should also have completed courses in physiology and immunology.

University of Michigan
The purpose of our listed prerequisites is to identify individuals that can exhibit our core competencies. These involve demonstrated academic strength and rigor in the following areas:

• Biomedical and Social Sciences (including skills in Written and Verbal Communication)
• Statistical Analysis and Epidemiology
• Hypothesis Development and Investigation
• Analytical Thought and Problem-Solving Skills

Keep in mind that your choices to fulfill our prerequisites should demonstrate pursuit of these core competencies. More information about each competency can be found in the following four sections.

Also, "The university of Michigan will not require dedicate course work in physics."

George Washington University

• With the Development of AAMC/HHMI scientific and personal competencies the George Washington University Committee on Admissions for MD Programs has moved from strict premedical requirements to competency-based recommendations. Mastery of these competencies should be reflected in strong academic performance, MCATs, experiences and letter(s) of reference.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

Rush "We highly recommend you have a strong foundation in cellular and molecular biology and biochemistry. Non-science majors should also have completed courses in physiology and immunology."

G.W. "Mastery of these competencies should be reflected in strong academic performance, MCATs, experiences and letter(s) of reference."

Michigan "Keep in mind that your choices to fulfill our prerequisites should demonstrate pursuit of these core competencies."


Yes to your question, however if you don't take some science prereqs or have a strong background in the subject matter you'll probably do poorly on the MCAT.

There was just a thread about this where a guy took no science classes and got a 498 because he was only applying to schools that did not require pre reqs. Needless to say he was not accepted to any of those programs.

 

[Crayola227]

wow things are really changing since my time! makes me feel old

I would get the MSAR, and look at school you have the best chance at, (typically in state schools, schools that tend to take people from your state, etc) and try to come up with a course list that will make the greatest number of such schools happy

I took an entire year of biochem I didn't technically have to (best undergrad course IMHO to take for med school prep), and another 2 courses just to make my school happy (paid off)

I sorta wish that every human had a decent grasp of physics, gen chem, o chem, biochem, genetics, math, humanities like sociology and psychology, but hey, that's me. I don't regret for a second the undergrad I did that was in service to the "old" pre-reqs

 

[gyngyn]

The last time I looked the following schools had moved to competencies instead of pre-req's:

Wake Forest
Vanderbilt
USC Keck
Stanford
Rush Medical College
Southern Illinois
Tulane
Albert Einstein
Hofstra
NYU
University of Cincinnati
Drexel
University of Pennsylvania
Sydney Kimmel
University of South Carolina (Charleston)
University of Virginia
University of Michigan
University of Minnesota
Duke
East Tennessee State
U of Chicago
U Conn
UCSD
GW

Feel free to update me.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

The last time I looked the following schools had moved to competencies instead of pre-req's:

Wake Forest
Vanderbilt
USC Keck
Stanford
Rush Medical College
Southern Illinois
Tulane
Albert Einstein
Hofstra
NYU
University of Cincinnati
Drexel
University of Pennsylvania
Sydney Kimmel
University of South Carolina (Charleston)
University of Virginia
University of Michigan
University of Minnesota
Duke
East Tennessee State
U of Chicago
U Conn
UCSD
GW

Feel free to update me.

that's crazy, NYU, UPenn, and UChicago?

Even though they say it's not required, only "recommended" I feel like there would still be some bias to those who do not meet those classes? How big of a bias would you say this is (if any)?

They must have recently changed the requirements; last year I believe I looked at NYU and they had a hard list of prereqs

 

[gyngyn]

that's crazy, NYU, UPenn, and UChicago?

Even though they say it's not required, only "recommended" I feel like there would still be some bias to those who do not meet those classes? How big of a bias would you say this is (if any)?

They must have recently changed the requirements; last year I believe I looked at NYU and they had a hard list of prereqs

It's a pain in the neck to get these policies changed.
There is no reason to think they don't mean it.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

It's a pain in the neck to get these policies changed.
There is no reason to think they don't mean it.

for UPenn's "Core competencies" I feel like it's basically prereq's (correct me if I'm wrong)

"The Perelman School of Medicine seeks students with a broad education and rigorous science preparation. Admissions competencies are not based on specific courses, but rather on the cumulative achievement of knowledge and skills needed to become a physician. The student’s undergraduate or post-baccalaureate program can provide the course information identified by that educational institution as providing the best preparation for study in medical school. All applicants must have a BS or BA degree from an accredited college or university in the United States or Canada prior to matriculation.

English/Communication
English fluency in writing, speaking and reading: demonstrated abilities include writing clearly and correctly, the ability to organize and deliver oral presentations, the ability to read critically and appraise technical content, and strong interpersonal skills. Speaking other languages is also helpful in medicine and patient care.

Biology
Competency in basic biological principles shared by all living organisms, which includes the diversity of life, life cycles and metabolic processes, the structure of life and nucleic acid structures, how biological information is transferred and stored, and the basic molecular and cellular structure and function.

Chemistry
Competencies include understanding the molecular basis of life; principles of chemical equilibria and thermodynamics; acid base balance; ionization and redox reactions; the structure of molecules and experimental methods and the molecular architecture of organic compounds; and the quantitative and qualitative aspects of reaction rates, binding constants and reaction mechanisms.

Physics and Mathematics
Physics provides the conceptual framework for quantitative biology and biomedical sciences. A firm foundation in mathematics, statistics and physical science is essential, including knowledge of algebra, equations and interpretation of graphic representations of data as well as familiarity with constants or units of physical measurement."

It's basically saying it's mandatory to take English, Bio, orgo, chem, physics, and stats, right?

 

[gyngyn]

for UPenn's "Core competencies" I feel like it's basically prereq's (correct me if I'm wrong)

"The Perelman School of Medicine seeks students with a broad education and rigorous science preparation. Admissions competencies are not based on specific courses, but rather on the cumulative achievement of knowledge and skills needed to become a physician. The student’s undergraduate or post-baccalaureate program can provide the course information identified by that educational institution as providing the best preparation for study in medical school. All applicants must have a BS or BA degree from an accredited college or university in the United States or Canada prior to matriculation.

English/Communication
English fluency in writing, speaking and reading: demonstrated abilities include writing clearly and correctly, the ability to organize and deliver oral presentations, the ability to read critically and appraise technical content, and strong interpersonal skills. Speaking other languages is also helpful in medicine and patient care.

Biology
Competency in basic biological principles shared by all living organisms, which includes the diversity of life, life cycles and metabolic processes, the structure of life and nucleic acid structures, how biological information is transferred and stored, and the basic molecular and cellular structure and function.

Chemistry
Competencies include understanding the molecular basis of life; principles of chemical equilibria and thermodynamics; acid base balance; ionization and redox reactions; the structure of molecules and experimental methods and the molecular architecture of organic compounds; and the quantitative and qualitative aspects of reaction rates, binding constants and reaction mechanisms.

Physics and Mathematics
Physics provides the conceptual framework for quantitative biology and biomedical sciences. A firm foundation in mathematics, statistics and physical science is essential, including knowledge of algebra, equations and interpretation of graphic representations of data as well as familiarity with constants or units of physical measurement."

It's basically saying it's mandatory to take English, Bio, orgo, chem, physics, and stats, right?

The idea that competency-based admissions is a free-for all can dissolve in the realization that it still takes a lot to show competency, even if specific classes are not required. Sometimes an "A" in a class is the easiest way to show competency...

 

[Lucca]

The idea that competency-based admissions is a free-for all can dissolve in the realization that it still takes a lot to show competency, even if specific classes are not required. In other words, sometimes an "A" in a class is the easiest way to show competency...

I think any step we can take to encourage premeds to branch out in science and obtain a more liberal education the better. The stricter the guidelines, the more rigid successful applicants are going to be in my opinion. Now if I could only convince anyone important to just establish LizzyM cutoffs for eligibility to apply and end the GPA/MCAT arms race.

 

[numbersloth]

I think a great aspect of core competencies is also that many schools have different structures (some schools' Intro Gen Chem or Intro Bio is only 1 semester, for example) so this makes the process less of a "check the boxes" exercise and more of an exercise in actually learning the material necessary to do well in medical school.

 

[alpinism]

wow things are really changing since my time! makes me feel old

I would get the MSAR, and look at school you have the best chance at, (typically in state schools, schools that tend to take people from your state, etc) and try to come up with a course list that will make the greatest number of such schools happy

I took an entire year of biochem I didn't technically have to (best undergrad course IMHO to take for med school prep), and another 2 courses just to make my school happy (paid off)

I sorta wish that every human had a decent grasp of physics, gen chem, o chem, biochem, genetics, math, humanities like sociology and psychology, but hey, that's me. I don't regret for a second the undergrad I did that was in service to the "old" pre-reqs

No kidding.

Back in the day every school had prereqs and if you didn't have them they'd throw your app in the trash before even looking at your grades. Not only that but every school had a different set of prereqs and some places also required a lab portion to be taken with the course even if your school didn't offer one. It was a huge pain in the a$$ to say the least unless you literally already knew where you were applying as a freshman during undergrad.

 

[Mansamusa]

I think these schools expect you to take the courses you need for the MCAT.

As someone from a quarter system school, I love that it eliminates some BS restrictions. Eg. Each quarter system class get 3.3 AMCAS semester hour, most schools require 6 semesters of English but you can't meet this requirement with 2 quarters of English? Many stupid situations like that could be minimized by not having explicit requirements. And then psych and sociology learning can be met by so many different courses and competency will allow students to meet these requirements in any way they want rather than taking psych 101

 

[@Hazel-rah]

Thank you all for the discussion, reminiscing, and validation. My personal example is that I have only taken 2 out of 3 terms of Organic Chemistry at a term-system school in Oregon. Now I live on the east coast and I only have the option of attending a semester system school. So, I could take the second semester of O chem here at the local Uni, OR I could go ahead and take Biochem. It's either/or. I don't have time/$ for both unless I delay applying for another year. So this competency based system allows me to take more rigorous courses that better prepare me for studying medicine without needlessly signing up for classes just to tick a box.

A second example is that I don't have credit for chemistry labs for my year of chemistry (they were taken as dual enrollment classes and although I DID labs, the institution translated it strangely). But I have extensive chemistry lab research experience, doing organic synthesis. This means I am hoping not to have to sign up for a year of Gen Chem labs, but rather have time in my schedule for taking molecular bio or genetics...

These competencies allow for people like me who have more of a winding path to avoid wasting time and money on classes that repeat what we already know or have demonstrated to know via life experience, higher level course work, and high MCAT scores (which I have not taken)

I'll let you know how my conversations with the admissions folks go, and later whether I can actually demonstrate competence--I'm sure there are doubters out there... I don't mind jumping through hoops, and I will if that's what it takes.
And thanks to the person who made this list! @gyngyn

 

[LizzyM]

The schools can do this knowing that most people are not going to restrict the list of schools they apply to and will have the pre-reqs even if they aren't "required". My school did this years ago and dropped the English requirement yet 99.9% of the applicants had the English courses that weren't "required" because the other schools all required it.

 

[gyngyn]

I think any step we can take to encourage premeds to branch out in science and obtain a more liberal education the better. The stricter the guidelines, the more rigid successful applicants are going to be in my opinion. .

I agree.

 

[avgn]

Harvard is also competency-based. Yale is not but they do not care that I am missing some labs here and there, so functionally competency-based I would say.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

Harvard is also competency-based. Yale is not but they do not care that I am missing some labs here and there, so functionally competency-based I would say.

I don't trust it. HMS says: "All applicants must complete a full year of biology. We will accept advanced or higher-level biology courses towards this requirement as well...The required 1-year biology course should be devoted to genetics and cell biology"

But then it says you can use interdisciplinary courses to satisfy the requirement? What kind of interdisciplinary courses would satisfy the requirement of physics? (it says the same for physics as well)

 

[Lucca]

I don't trust it. HMS says: "All applicants must complete a full year of biology. We will accept advanced or higher-level biology courses towards this requirement as well...The required 1-year biology course should be devoted to genetics and cell biology"

But then it says you can use interdisciplinary courses to satisfy the requirement? What kind of interdisciplinary courses would satisfy the requirement of physics? (it says the same for physics as well)

Biophysics? Some courses here are also combined like : Differential Equations and Linear Algebra. Bioinformatics and Systems Biology. Etc.

 

[numbersloth]

But then it says you can use interdisciplinary courses to satisfy the requirement? What kind of interdisciplinary courses would satisfy the requirement of physics? (it says the same for physics as well)

Some schools have "integrated science curriculums" focused at training researchers in molecular biology in which they teach you physics, chem, bio, and math but all with an eye towards biological systems. Its quite unique though they tend to be focused on training for a PhD, not an MD, but that may be because pre-meds aren't sure how the courses would count towards pre-reqs.