No proper Gen Chem or Gen Bio when applying. Problem?

[Endoxifen]

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I posted about this about 6 months ago, but a few things have changed and I want to be fully aware before I finalize my schedule for next year. As the title says, I will be applying to med school next summer with no formal gen chem or gen bio. This happened for a couple different reasons. I took AP chem in HS and then the next year (my senior year of HS), I dual enrolled with a local university and took all of Ochem and it's associated lab. I went on to take biochem freshman year and have been taking upper level biochem and molecular bio classes ever since.

The lack of gen bio was because I was originally going for a PhD and my major (biochem) didn't require me to take gen bio. When I finally decided to go MD, I was entering my junior year. By that time, I'd taken 400 level bio, molecular bio, and microbio classes and I was assured by my advisor (the premed director at my school) that it has never been an issue with any of their BMB premeds.

I've managed to maintain a 3.98 at my university (3.91 or 3.92 if you count my O Chem) in spite of taking these classes really early. The way I see it, adcoms will either love it (showed initiative), hate it (think I cut corners), or will be indifferent. @LizzyM , @Goro, and @gyngyn, what do you think? I have another year of college and a gap year. That gives me plenty of time to take these classes if I need to. I'd be prefer to continue taking interesting upper level classes, but if you think it will become an issue, I'll take them.

Thank you!

 

[LizzyM]

It would be better to consult the MSAR and follow-up with inquiries to the authorities at each school you are interested in.

 

[Endoxifen]

It would be better to consult the MSAR and follow-up with inquiries to the authorities at each school you are interested in.

Thank you for your response. I've called and checked with several schools. I was told that they would accept the alternate credits, but I'm more concerned about the impression it gives having two deviations from the standard. Considering how thin the margins are at top tier schools, I don't want to shoot myself in the foot before I've even applied.

 

[efle]

You made a 3.98 as a biochem major, they're not going to pass on interviewing you for intro bio and intro chem

 

[Endoxifen]

You made a 3.98 as a biochem major, they're not going to pass on interviewing you for intro bio and intro chem

I don't think so either. It's more of a confluence of little oddities with my record (not really starting ECs until junior year, appearing to have low credits junior year because I spent a semester away at an internship, and not getting a rec from my first PI. They all of legitimate explainations and I know that I'm an excellent candidate for T20s, but at a glance, my record is really weird.

 

[The Broccoli Industry]

Med schools don't care about the level of science depth in your upper level classes as much as they want to see that you're able to rise up and above the competition.

Med schools want to see gen bio and chem because these classes are notorious for being cutthroat and competitive amongst premeds. They want to see that you're able to thrive and excel in that sort of environment.

Upper level Sciences, while may be more scientifically in depth, are generally much easier to do well in with less competition (GPA-wise), this is the reason why they're typically not substitutable for general bio/chem.

If I were you I'd try and demonstrate in some other way that you're able to rise above other premeds competitively. One way could be to dominate your MCAT. You could also go back and take these pre-reqs. But definitely try to figure something out.


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[Endoxifen]

Med schools don't care about the level of science depth in your upper level classes as much as they want to see that you're able to rise up and above the competition.

Med schools want to see gen bio and chem because these classes are notorious for being cutthroat and competitive amongst premeds. They want to see that you're able to thrive and excel in that sort of environment.

Upper level Sciences, while may be more scientifically in depth, are generally much easier to do well in with less competition (GPA-wise), this is the reason why they're typically not substitutable for general bio/chem.

If I were you I'd try and demonstrate in some other way that you're able to rise above other premed competitively. One way could be to dominate your MCAT. You could also go back and take these pre-reqs. But definitely try to figure something out.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I understand what you're saying, but do you really think that the general perception of biochem is that it's easier than gen chem?

 

[AttemptingScholar]

I understand what you're saying, but do you really think that the general perception of biochem is that it's easier than gen chem?

The subject definitely not easier, but (at my school at least), early classes are definitely weeder classes. Large amounts of useless homework, 600+ person lecture and about 3hours a week of office hours (which were usually during my lab for that same class), earliest start times, latest final date, large amounts of memorization. The difficult of the subject and the class aren't always directly related.

 

[Endoxifen]

The subject definitely not easier, but (at my school at least), early classes are definitely weeder classes. Large amounts of useless homework, 600+ person lecture and about 3hours a week of office hours (which were usually during my lab for that same class), earliest start times, latest final date, large amounts of memorization. The difficult of the subject and the class aren't always directly related.

Maybe they weed through different mechanisms because you're right. I've heard of the BS that my classmates had to deal with in gen chem (30 page hand written labs) in a class that was really easy comparatively. Still, I think I've probably proven my abilities by now considering that I've been taking classes for seniors since I was a freshman.

 

[Endoxifen]

The issue for some medical schools isnt the quality of the applicant but rather the required adherence to published criteria and the risk of being dinged for being to liberal with waivers to that criteria.

To be clear, when schools ask for 1 year of biology with lab, they expect gen bio and nothing else? I have taken honors microbiology with lab and proteins and nucleic acids lab, along with honors mammalian physiology and immunology. These are either under the title microbiology or biology. I would hope that that wouldn't be an issue. Then they would have to only give me the exception for gen chem.

 

[The Broccoli Industry]

I understand what you're saying, but do you really think that the general perception of biochem is that it's easier than gen chem?

Take my anecdotal evidence for what you will, but the upper level biology/biochemistry and chemistry classes (>4000) that I've taken thus far have been far easier to secure an A than the intro gen bio/chem classes I took. My friends seem to have the same experience as well. While the content in these upper level classes was more in depth (not necessarily more difficult), getting an A was far more difficult in those traditional weed out classes due to the cutthroat environment as well as the fact competition consisted of try hard, driven premeds.

Med schools want to see that you're the best premed candidate from your college, and the only way they can somewhat objectively determine that is from you're performance in traditional pre-requisites. The variability in difficulty in upper level sciences makes it difficult for med schools to assess your abilities relative to your premed classmates.

EDIT: I should also add, that I know a lot of people who performed extremely poorly in gen bio/chem but went on to get straight A's in *hard* upper level biology classes. Interpret that how you will.

 

[Endoxifen]

Take my anecdotal evidence for what you will, but the upper level biology/biochemistry and chemistry classes (>4000) that I've taken thus far have been far easier to secure an A than the intro gen bio/chem classes I took. My friends seem to have the same experience as well. While the content in these upper level classes was more in depth (not necessarily more difficult), getting an A was far more difficult in those traditional weed out classes due to the cutthroat environment as well as the fact competition consisted of try hard, driven premeds.

Med schools want to see that you're the best premed candidate from your college, and the only way they can somewhat objectively determine that is from you're performance in traditional pre-requisites. The variability in difficulty in upper level sciences makes it difficult for med schools to assess your abilities relative to your premed classmates.

EDIT: I should also add, that I know a lot of people who performed extremely poorly in gen bio/chem but went on to get straight A's in *hard* upper level biology classes. Interpret that how you will.

I can't say I've had the same experience. Different schools have different standards. At my school, gen chem and gen bio are relatively easy, but very annoying. The real killer is O Chem and biochem. Regardless, I think a 3.98 GPA will be enough to prove that I can handle the rigor. If not, then hopefully a strong MCAT performance will make up for it. I'm definitely willing to take the bio class, but the chem might be a waste of time.

 

[calivianya]

Most of my top choice schools don't have requirements anymore - just recommendations. They like well-rounded candidates, not just science majors, etc.

All of the hard sciences are recommendations, not requirements, and nobody's going to skip interviewing you over the first year bios/chems when you've proven you can do well in the upper level courses.

 

[LizzyM]

If you don't get interviews it won't be due to academics but you may have valid concerns about the lack of PI letter and a late start to ECs. List the internship in the experience section to help explain the reason for the light class load that year.

 

[Goro]

To be clear, when schools ask for 1 year of biology with lab, they expect gen bio and nothing else? I have taken honors microbiology with lab and proteins and nucleic acids lab, along with honors mammalian physiology and immunology. These are either under the title microbiology or biology. I would hope that that wouldn't be an issue. Then they would have to only give me the exception for gen chem.

One year of Biology does not limit the choice to General or Intro to Bio...it means "any Biology course".

 

[Endoxifen]

If you don't get interviews it won't be due to academics but you may have valid concerns about the lack of PI letter and a late start to ECs. List the internship in the experience section to help explain the reason for the light class load that year.

I'm not choosing to use my first PI because I have 6 PIs that I could ask for letters and I'm choosing the ones I have the best relationship with. This isn't lab hopping by the way, as 4 of these come from summer work and a the other is the lab I switched to after my first. Considering how many research experiences I have and how many PIs will be listed on my application, will it raise any eyebrows that I didn't pick my first PI and picked from the others? I will have a letter from my second PI who I will have worked with for longer than my first.

Thank you!

 

[Endoxifen]

It depends on the school's specific requirements . For example, SUNY Upstate says

Can other science courses like Organic Chemistry II or Microbiology be used to complete your prerequisites?
No. We will not accept any other science courses as substitutions for our required prerequisites.

And again, it depends on the school, their stated policy (that they were accredited under) and their adherence to that policy in the form of waivers. Since the number of schools has grown, LCME is relying more and more on "audits" for accreditation and re-accreditation (ie eview of records, including admissions/applications). If schools gives too many waivers, it raises the question of why do they have a policy and do not follow it. Some schools have been dinged by this and therefore rarely give out waivers.

Thank you for showing me this. I'll make a list of schools that I'm interested in and look carefully through their website for stipulations like the one above. If I can't find it, maybe I'll give them a call.

 

[kraskadva]

Why not just take them?
The material should be a breeze for you this point, the assignments should also be a breeze since you've clearly learned how to write lab reports and take tests already (which is where most of the weeding out happens), and then you don't have to limit your school choices to ones that will accept substitutes for intro bio/chem.
It's just a hoop man. Jump like everybody else.

 

[dcmorgan96]

I am a bio major that used AP credit for intro bio. I plan to contact each school that I am interested in and ask if my situation is fine or if they would be recommended to take Biol 101 during my senior year. It would be weird, but shouldn't be difficult at all

 

[Endoxifen]

Why not just take them?
The material should be a breeze for you this point, the assignments should also be a breeze since you've clearly learned how to write lab reports and take tests already (which is where most of the weeding out happens), and then you don't have to limit your school choices to ones that will accept substitutes for intro bio/chem.
It's just a hoop man. Jump like everybody else.

At this point, it's an opportunity cost issue. If I really don't have to take them and I do anyway, I lose the ability to take high level statistics classes, which I want for research. I also cram up my schedule which will make doing research and volunteering more challenging. It's not something that can't be overcome, but I'd prefer to just get around it. That being said, doing the biology requirement shouldn't be too difficult. In fact, it's something that I might have done regardless.

 

[Endoxifen]

Additionally, schools do not typically check prereqs at admission. That is done after you have taken an offer of acceptance during pre-matriculation phase when you will have to have official transcripts sent directly to the school for that purpose.

What happens if you are missing a prereq in this phase? Do they ask you to take it in the remaining time or recind their offer?

 

[kraskadva]

At this point, it's an opportunity cost issue. If I really don't have to take them and I do anyway, I lose the ability to take high level statistics classes, which I want for research. I also cram up my schedule which will make doing research and volunteering more challenging. It's not something that can't be overcome, but I'd prefer to just get around it. That being said, doing the biology requirement shouldn't be too difficult. In fact, it's something that I might have done regardless.

I hear ya, but hoops must be jumped.
What are your options for summer/winter term classes? Or even during your gap year. If you have it listed as "planning to take" on AMCAS, that should still do the trick and not jam up your schedule for this coming semester.

Additionally, schools do not typically check prereqs at admission. That is done after you have taken an offer of acceptance during pre-matriculation phase when you will have to have official transcripts sent directly to the school for that purpose.

Most don't, but some do ask for courses to be reentered/prereqs identified form coursework on their secondaries.

What happens if you are missing a prereq in this phase? Do they ask you to take it in the remaining time or recind their offer?

Either you negotiate a waiver or you have to take the course to keep the admission.

 

[Endoxifen]

I hear ya, but hoops must be jumped.
What are your options for summer/winter term classes? Or even during your gap year. If you have it listed as "planning to take" on AMCAS, that should still do the trick and not jam up your schedule for this coming semester.

That's the thing though, clearly schools have established alternate pathways for students. IDK, you really think I need to do the chem too? I got the go ahead about that when I called.

 

[DBC03]

My experience is relatively similar in that I have AP bio, AP chem, AP Calc (AB, BC), and many others. I took upper level courses instead of the intro courses and do not have plans to take the introductory classes at this point as a cursory review of all the schools I am interested in has shown that I have fulfilled their requirements. My application has been verified and I am carefully screening each school's academic requirements before I add it to my application. I still have one full year of classes and could sign up for the intro classes if I have to. But as far as I can tell, each school will accept AP credit as long as I have upper level classes, or it has recommended classes instead of required classes. There is one school I had to remove from my list as my prereqs were too old and I didn't have enough semester hours to apply at this point (they want a certain number of hours before application, not matriculation).

It's very school-specific and state schools have more particular requirements than private schools. So I would review your state school requirements first and then make a list of private schools as well. If you meet your state schools' requirements (especially NY), then you'll likely meet the private schools'.

 

[DBC03]

And just for a reference, this is the information on UCF's website:
"Will the UCF M.D. Program accept CLEP and AP courses in lieu of the required course work?
While CLEP may help you to receive your bachelor’s degree, we will not substitute CLEP for required course work when considering an application for an interview. We may substitute AP course work for required course work, but we will expect to see additional in-residence course work in college in that discipline to indicate that you have, in fact, mastered that subject. For example if you had AP credit for Chem I, we would expect to see a solid grade in Chem II while in college; or, if you had AP credit for both Chem I and Chem II, we would expect to see you take an upper-level chemistry course in college and do well in that subject."

I have taken two semesters of Organic Chemistry and two semesters of Advanced Biochemistry. Every school I have contacted so far has said that those four chemistry courses, along with my AP credit and MCAT score, will satisfy their chemistry requirement. I also took Cell Biology and Genetics, and those will satisfy the biology requirement along with my AP bio credit.

I am now enrolled in an English class as most medical schools do, in fact, want two semesters of English and I only have one from college (but two semesters of AP English as well).

 

[kraskadva]

That's the thing though, clearly schools have established alternate pathways for students. IDK, you really think I need to do the chem too? I got the go ahead about that when I called.

If the MSAR and/or calling the schools turns up "You don't need to take" then trust them, not me.
However, if you start making a school list and that one requirement becomes an issue for a number of schools on your list, then it would be easier to just take the course and be done with it.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm not choosing to use my first PI because I have 6 PIs that I could ask for letters and I'm choosing the ones I have the best relationship with. This isn't lab hopping by the way, as 4 of these come from summer work and a the other is the lab I switched to after my first. Considering how many research experiences I have and how many PIs will be listed on my application, will it raise any eyebrows that I didn't pick my first PI and picked from the others? I will have a letter from my second PI who I will have worked with for longer than my first.

Thank you!

Could you choose to leave that research experience off of your list. You are not obligated to list every research experience and if lack of a PI letter would raise questions, it might be best to leave it off.

 

[Endoxifen]

Could you choose to leave that research experience off of your list. You are not obligated to list every research experience and if lack of a PI letter would raise questions, it might be best to leave it off.

Do you really think that will be an issue? I've been told repeatedly that I have too many PI letters and that I should only pick two. Is his really that important to have?

As to not listing my first research experience, my switch from PhD track to MD track is going to be the basis of my personal statement. Without listing my experience, there's no evidence that I was ever really on a PhD track, so I think I should keep it.

Maybe I can somewhat obscure it by compiling all of my research experience into a single activity on the application instead of listing 4 separate experiences.

 

[LizzyM]

Do you really think that will be an issue? I've been told repeatedly that I have too many PI letters and that I should only pick two. Is his really that important to have?

As to not listing my first research experience, my switch from PhD track to MD track is going to be the basis of my personal statement. Without listing my experience, there's no evidence that I was ever really on a PhD track, so I think I should keep it.

Maybe I can somewhat obscure it by compiling all of my research experience into a single activity on the application instead of listing 4 separate experiences.

Too many PI letters can be an issue and not having any can be an issue if you have had a research experience of any depth. Puts you between a rock and a hard place. Hope it works out.

 

[Dox4lyfe]

Too many PI letters can be an issue and not having any can be an issue if you have had a research experience of any depth. Puts you between a rock and a hard place. Hope it works out.

Is this really as issue for MD-only applicants though? I thought multiple research PI letters would only matter for mstp/pstp applicants.

 

[LizzyM]

Is this really as issue for MD-only applicants though? I thought multiple research PI letters would only matter for mstp/pstp applicants.

If an MD applicant has five PI letters it would be an issue as it might raise questions about the applicant's interest in medicine vs bench work. Such an applicant needs to show how an interest in medicine was tested through volunteerism, employment and shadowing. It is not enough to say that one decided against a PhD but why medicine is a good fit.