No Radiologists in the future!!

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lordman

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Many people say that..No Radiologists in the future. I can not decide if it is ture or not...That is why I am asking here.
During Internal Medicine Rounds, Neurology, Neuro Surgery...I noticed that doctors read the images & don't rely on report.
So I wonder about the future of this GREAT speciality...


Th other point; Decrease of radiologists in the future since teleradiology.
What I understand from teleradiology, Radiologist can solve the puzzles at their homes...decreasing the number of radiologists.

So Radiologist's job would be just writing reports without taking some Hx or info.
In other words, reporting just for medicolegal issues !!! not as a doctor with a bit contact.

Any input would be appreciated.
 
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EricCarmann.jpg
 
It is not a troll. I am interested in the answer
 
Are you sure they aren't relying on the report, but just looking at things on their own as well? I'm yet to meet a (smart) doctor in another specialty who outwardly rejects the radiologist's reads. I do know docs that check out the image on their own and try to reach their own conclusion before jumping to the report or they just double check because it isn't a bad thing to do. Depending on how things are done, they could have the wrong patient. There is also that off chance the completely obvious was missed (everyone has those moments at some point in their life)

I'd be scared as hell to be the patient of any doc that ignores the report...

So, the short answer is yes, there will be radiologists in the future unless every physician is required to do a radiology residency on top of their chosen field.
 
Are you saying it is nice to have the report because "they could have the wrong patient." That's a pretty expensive fee to make sure the patient name is correct.

I feel it is a valid question in many fields. I would be "scared as hell to be the patient" of a neurosurgeon or orthopod who cannot read most of their own studies.

In terms of the report quality - this depends much on who is doing it or where it is done (community or university setting with a team of 5 neuro-radiologists sitting in a room). A well trained radiologist can offer much in terms of differential but we have seen some completely go through the motions.

There are many community radiologists from the old days reading brain MRIs that have no business doing so in my opinion. How could you expect someone who sees one tumor a month do as well as someone in the univeristy who sees 15 studies a day?
 
Thanks all for the answers & discussion,

The other point that I forgot to put it in the thread; Decrease of radiologists in the future since teleradiology.
What I understand from teleradiology, Radiologist can solve the puzzles at their homes...decreasing the number of radiologists.

So Radiologist's job would be just writing reports without taking some Hx or info.
In other words, reporting just for medicolegal issues!!!

P.S: I will merge this post to the thread
 
Thanks all for the answers & discussion,

The other point that I forgot to put it in the thread; Decrease of radiologists in the future since teleradiology.
What I understand from teleradiology, Radiologist can solve the puzzles at their homes...decreasing the number of radiologists.

So Radiologist's job would be just writing reports without taking some Hx or info.
In other words, reporting just for medicolegal issues!!!

P.S: I will merge this post to the thread

Quite frankly, while I wouldn't outright call you names, I don't think you will get much (intelligent) response just due to the fact that there are so many-and I mean so many-questions that ask this issue from premeds to medical students that do not understand the role of clinical and legal bulletproof vest that radiology serves. And they have been answered repeatedly.

I don't come here very often, but seriously, just do a search-you will find more than enough answers that you seek.
 
How would the physical location of the radiologist interpreting the studies make any difference in terms of the total number of radiologists needed to interpret all the studies? I guess you could argue that some low-volume centers could consolidate and be a little more efficient, and that's probably true, but it's probably a pretty minor effect.

Other physicians look at their own films for a number of reasons. Radiologists can make mistakes just like everyone else and it's always a good idea to check. Sometimes it's because the question is simple enough that they can figure it out and they don't want to wait for the radiologist (massive pneumothorax or no?).
 
Thanks all for the answers & discussion,

The other point that I forgot to put it in the thread; Decrease of radiologists in the future since teleradiology.
What I understand from teleradiology, Radiologist can solve the puzzles at their homes...decreasing the number of radiologists.

So Radiologist's job would be just writing reports without taking some Hx or info.
In other words, reporting just for medicolegal issues!!!

P.S: I will merge this post to the thread


Lordman, here are your answers:

1. Teleradiology: first and foremost it is a legal issue. Someone has to be held accountable to final reads who possesses a US license and moreover, a traditional training in radiology. You can take a risk as a hospital and outsource to a company for preliminary reads overnight, but if you act on them, you are assuming liability. It will be difficult for a US law firm to acquire money from a company in another nation (say India for example) for a bad read which was made by a non-US licensed doc. Ultimately, the doctor and the hospital who choose it is more cost effective to pay less to outsource to a cheaper labor force will be liable in US courts. Moreover, many attending physicians in a number of specialties like being able to go to the reading room, meet with their radiologist, give some extra clinical information and form a more conclusive diagnosis together. This is not possible with teleradiology. Lastly, radiologists perform a number of procedures on a daily basis. This is not only something restricted to IR. Radiologists can drain abscesses, do fluoroscopic guided LPs, US guided paracentesis/thoracentesis/FNAs, CT guided biopsies, RFAs, etc. Mammography is a very clinic oriented, procedure driven subspecialty. Often, the mammographer is the "breast doctor" for the patient all the way up to surgery. This not only involves the actual mammograms, but discussion of the results, discussion of various additional images needed, biopsies, etc.


2. Do doctors read their own studies negating the need for radiologists in the future? The answer is that some docs to read their own. For example, neurosurgeons, orthopods, gen surgeons, neurologists and pulmonologists. That said, their training is much more than imaging. In fact, the majority of their training is NOT about imaging. Again, they can assume the liability for reading a study, but it is their ass in court if they bill the professional fee that would normally go to a radiologist and then miss something. CT may be a simpler imaging modality for the non-radiologist to read, but MRI and US certainly are not. Most attendings do not regularly attempt to read those on their own. Again, they can try, but if they find themselves in court and are asked why they did not consult a radiologist, someone specifically trained for 5+ years in ONLY reading imaging studies, they may find it difficult to win the hearts and minds of the jury when their only response is "I had some training in reading the studies and I wanted to get an additional salary increase by billing for an imaging professional fee." Even reading simpler, more anatomical studies such as plain films and CT can be difficult to the non-radiologist. One has to not only have an excellent sense of gross anatomy but they must also have an understanding for the physics behind then images. For example, many non-radiologists are not trained in the various types of artifacts which can generate false positives or false negative reads on any imaging modality, plain film and CT included. Think about how many PCPs and ED docs you see who will read a CTPA and definitively say "no pulmonary embolism." Anyone can call a saddle PE, but more distal PEs are more difficult to call and are subject to artifact. For this reason, radiologists will never be out of a job. Lastly, another area of radiology, one which requires a one year fellowship (or a separate residency altogether) is nuclear medicine. You will be hard pressed to find any non-radiologist/non-nuclear medicine doc who will read any of these studies.

In summary, radiology is still a great field and one that I am very excited about. This is one area where continued advancement take place year after year. While CMS is attempting to curtail imaging costs, the reality is that medicine is shifting ever more towards imaging dependence.
 
Teleradiology and outsourcing isnt the only threat.

My father is a radiologist and he said there are already machines linked up to their servers that are testing out the ability of a new program that can read images on its own.

Thats right people, there is already computer software that can take the place of a radiologist!

Of course, this is in a very early stage of testing and needs a while before computer can read an image on its own and accurately create a diagnosis. Think about how amazing the capabilities are - taking an MRI and instantly getting a diagnosis of any abnormalities the computer detects. And maybe we wont see this in our lifetime, and if we do it wont get rid of radiologists but they will just be a double-checker to the computer's diagnosis - but ITS COMING!
 
Teleradiology and outsourcing isnt the only threat.

My father is a radiologist and he said there are already machines linked up to their servers that are testing out the ability of a new program that can read images on its own.

Thats right people, there is already computer software that can take the place of a radiologist!

Of course, this is in a very early stage of testing and needs a while before computer can read an image on its own and accurately create a diagnosis. Think about how amazing the capabilities are - taking an MRI and instantly getting a diagnosis of any abnormalities the computer detects. And maybe we wont see this in our lifetime, and if we do it wont get rid of radiologists but they will just be a double-checker to the computer's diagnosis - but ITS COMING!



Hi ,

It feels like you are trying to predict the dooms day for radiologists . A day when there will be only computers that make a diagnosis from images . But there is a flaw.

There is something called experience . Its a sum of the knowledge and wisdom ( mind you both are different ) that a doctor acquires over a period of his practice and that fine tunes his mind . This fine tuning is a result of the numerous cases and images that he sees and interprets over years that make him wiser. A computer can try to imitate that but i am sure it will fail badly . The simple reason is that no computer can match the human brain. The complexities of a human brain cannot be duplicated in the external environment , however hard you try. God has made sure that it does not happen.

So , you are always going to require a radiologist to look at your images , run the little neurons in hisbrain , delve into the deep ocean of his experiience and come out with a pearl , that is the diagnosis.

Moreover if u had hernia and i told u that i will tell my assistant computer to to do a robotic surgery on you without anyone observing , will you be willing ? Probabaly not !

Patients require that human touch . Sometimes its the human touch that heals and not the computer knowledge .

Dr Sandeep Jakhere
 
It seems you are trying to give a religious debate rather than a practical one. 50 years ago if you tried to explain how computers work and what the internet was, they would laugh at you and say thats science fiction. But we've gotten there. We have even created computers that can learn, adapt and integrate knowledge - for example IBM's creation "Watson", the computer that beat the top two human Jeopardy players in the world (link: http://www.pcworld.com/article/219900/ibm_watson_wins_jeopardy_humans_rally_back.html). We have also created machines that can assist surgeons in helping to make precise surgical cuts that the human hand would have trouble making themselves.

As I said in my previous post - maybe we wont see radiologists gone in our lifetime. However, there is no reason to think that a computer that can learn and analyze data (i.e. radiographic images) wouldn't be more efficient than a doctor. Radiologists will first use the system to assist them in confirming a diagnosis. But, eventually, it will be the radiologists that are assisting the computers' diagnoses.

This is already starting to happen by the way. Computers can assist radiologists in their diagnosis of lung cancers (link: http://health.dailynewscentral.com/content/view/174/63)

There is no argument against this. It's without a doubt inevitable. It's not if it will happen, but when.




Hi ,

It feels like you are trying to predict the dooms day for radiologists . A day when there will be only computers that make a diagnosis from images . But there is a flaw.

There is something called experience . Its a sum of the knowledge and wisdom ( mind you both are different ) that a doctor acquires over a period of his practice and that fine tunes his mind . This fine tuning is a result of the numerous cases and images that he sees and interprets over years that make him wiser. A computer can try to imitate that but i am sure it will fail badly . The simple reason is that no computer can match the human brain. The complexities of a human brain cannot be duplicated in the external environment , however hard you try. God has made sure that it does not happen.

So , you are always going to require a radiologist to look at your images , run the little neurons in hisbrain , delve into the deep ocean of his experiience and come out with a pearl , that is the diagnosis.

Moreover if u had hernia and i told u that i will tell my assistant computer to to do a robotic surgery on you without anyone observing , will you be willing ? Probabaly not !

Patients require that human touch . Sometimes its the human touch that heals and not the computer knowledge .

Dr Sandeep Jakhere
 
By the way, you should really watch Battlestar Galactica. Yes, it is a science fiction tv show, but it presents a very interesting view on humanity.

*****SPOILER*****

The show follows a race of humans that have created technologies so advanced that they have been able to create robots with tissue and blood and neurons - not metal. These humanlike robots turn against them and try to destroy the humans. Eventually, they come together and settle their differences. Thats when they land on a planet at the end of a show to repopulate their society. That planet is Earth, and it describes how humans are ancestors of both true and robotic humans.

******************

Although it never happened, it presents a very interesting point - That science and technology are not stagnant. They are forever improving and evolving. Right now the robots that we create cannot love or feel, but they can reason and learn when they make mistakes. And it will be true in the future that these things that they learned will assist them in making diagnoses in fields like medicine - and who knows what else!

Side note: (similar to Battlestar Galactica) if you believe we are all created by another - doesnt that mean we are all just very very advanced robots?!



Hi ,

It feels like you are trying to predict the dooms day for radiologists . A day when there will be only computers that make a diagnosis from images . But there is a flaw.

There is something called experience . Its a sum of the knowledge and wisdom ( mind you both are different ) that a doctor acquires over a period of his practice and that fine tunes his mind . This fine tuning is a result of the numerous cases and images that he sees and interprets over years that make him wiser. A computer can try to imitate that but i am sure it will fail badly . The simple reason is that no computer can match the human brain. The complexities of a human brain cannot be duplicated in the external environment , however hard you try. God has made sure that it does not happen.

So , you are always going to require a radiologist to look at your images , run the little neurons in hisbrain , delve into the deep ocean of his experiience and come out with a pearl , that is the diagnosis.

Moreover if u had hernia and i told u that i will tell my assistant computer to to do a robotic surgery on you without anyone observing , will you be willing ? Probabaly not !

Patients require that human touch . Sometimes its the human touch that heals and not the computer knowledge .

Dr Sandeep Jakhere
 
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This is already starting to happen by the way. Computers can assist radiologists in their diagnosis of lung cancers (link: http://health.dailynewscentral.com/content/view/174/63)

that was just a reserch project like 7 years ago. turns out it sucked. same thing exists for mams. it too sucks, but not as bad as the lung nodule one. we are a long ways away still from computer aided diagnosis.
 
If a computer can progress to this point, then it most certainly be able to replace the jobs of most MDs other than surgeons. In fact, it could replace most jobs in America.
 
If a computer can progress to this point, then it most certainly be able to replace the jobs of most MDs other than surgeons. In fact, it could replace most jobs in America.

Yup, thats the fear.

And its not if, but WHEN computers progress to that point. .....but still probably not in our lifetime.
 
that was just a reserch project like 7 years ago. turns out it sucked. same thing exists for mams. it too sucks, but not as bad as the lung nodule one. we are a long ways away still from computer aided diagnosis.

Quote from paper released 2 months ago by the department of radiology assessing the new "CAD" system:

"The goal of CAD is to improve the radiologic interpretation of nodules, and many studies to date have shown that CAD can indeed improve radiologists' performance for detecting lung nodules and that CAD should be used as a second reader. It also has been shown that nodule malignancy and the response of malignant lung tumors to treatment can be assessed by using nodule volumetry and that CAD has the potential to provide objective analysis of the nodule morphology and thereby enhance the workflow when assessing follow-up studies."

....now think of the type of systems we will have 15 years from now analyzing radiologic images.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3052604/
 
Quote from paper released 2 months ago by the department of radiology assessing the new "CAD" system:

"The goal of CAD is to improve the radiologic interpretation of nodules, and many studies to date have shown that CAD can indeed improve radiologists' performance for detecting lung nodules and that CAD should be used as a second reader. It also has been shown that nodule malignancy and the response of malignant lung tumors to treatment can be assessed by using nodule volumetry and that CAD has the potential to provide objective analysis of the nodule morphology and thereby enhance the workflow when assessing follow-up studies."

....now think of the type of systems we will have 15 years from now analyzing radiologic images.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3052604/

Because we all know that the Seoul (korea) National University Medical Research Center is the bastion of medical research. Not to mention the Korean journal of radiology is so highly renowned. Lol, thanks pre-med, keep em coming.

Keep getting baked and predicting the future based on battlestar galactica
 
Because we all know that the Seoul (korea) National University Medical Research Center is the bastion of medical research. Not to mention the Korean journal of radiology is so highly renowned. Lol, thanks pre-med, keep em coming.


I like how you're just trolling this forum without any evidence. I'm the only one trying to give real data here. Another source is right here in NJ where iCAD has eliminated the need for biopsies to predict prostate cancer. The system will also highlight the problem areas before the radiologist even looks at the images (Source: http://www.northjersey.com/news/health/120184664_Prostate_cancer_detection_gets_easier.html)

Its also strange to me that in lieu of all of our scientific breakthroughs and use of computers and robots in health care organizations, doctors and medical students alike can still put their fingers in their ears and sing "la la la" if the information threatens their future in medicine.

And even so - as new technologies come into light, they most likely will not affect you, or any of your colleagues' jobs. But future generations may have this to worry about, and should take it more seriously.

....Also, what about outsourcing affecting radiology? 10 years ago, very few practices used computer imaging to diagnose patients - it was all printed out by hand to be read by the radiologist. Now, since everything is digital, the problem of outsourcing is an issue for radiology that previously was never a threat. Hospitals can send radiographic images to india to be read for a fraction of the price that private groups have read them. Because of this, radiologists have lost an average of 15-20% business over the past 5 years.

....Also, what about other specialties now training physicians to read images on their own? This has always been a problem and the ACR has fought to keep radiology in practice and the only source of imaging being read.

All of this reasoning seems clear of the decreased need and use of radiologists in the future. Again, maybe not our generations future - but the future.
 
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That is it. Nobody should go into Radiology anymore. It is doomed to robots and overseas Radiologists. Let the shortage begin! :xf:
 
I like how you're just trolling this forum without any evidence. I'm the only one trying to give real data here.

Well, I just matched into radiology, so it's a bit of a stretch to call me a troll. I would say that some random pre-med who has no vested interest in this argument, and is posting about the doom of a field in its own forum by quoting korean journals and battlestar galactica would fit more into the "troll" category. But hey, semantics.

Another source is right here in NJ where iCAD has eliminated the need for biopsies to predict prostate cancer. The system will also highlight the problem areas before the radiologist even looks at the images (Source: http://www.northjersey.com/news/health/120184664_Prostate_cancer_detection_gets_easier.html)

You seriously need to learn how to critically analyze what you read if you think the conclusion of that article is that it "eliminated the need for biopsies to predict prostate cancer.". It was written by some website staff writer with no medical training, and there is absolutely 0 scientific data in that article about iCAD.


Its also strange to me that in lieu of all of our scientific breakthroughs and use of computers and robots in health care organizations, doctors and medical students alike can still put their fingers in their ears and sing "la la la" if the information threatens their future in medicine.

And even so - as new technologies come into light, they most likely will not affect you, or any of your colleagues' jobs. But future generations may have this to worry about, and should take it more seriously.


It is one thing to acknowledge the remarkable technological advancements of the last 20 years. It is another to assume that artificial intelligence will be able to mimic the human brain. You are allowed to wildly speculate that the progress in the past 20 years means that AI is inevitable. I am allowed to argue that the severe limitations of CAD shown by mammography suggests that it will never work. But this argument carries about as much weight as predicting what NBA team will win the championship in 2020.


....Also, what about outsourcing affecting radiology? 10 years ago, very few practices used computer imaging to diagnose patients - it was all printed out by hand to be read by the radiologist. Now, since everything is digital, the problem of outsourcing is an issue for radiology that previously was never a threat. Hospitals can send radiographic images to india to be read for a fraction of the price that private groups have read them.

I agree the potential of outsourcing is there. In a world with no lawyers, you would be completely correct. But in order to practice medicine, you must be licensed in your state. You cannot have a medical license in America without training at an American residency program. It would be illegal for any foreigner to practice medicine (ie read films on American patients). Unless this rule changes, outsourcing is a non-issue. Since there has never been a peep about this on Capitol Hill, it is pointless to even address.

Because of this, radiologists have lost an average of 15-20% business over the past 5 years.

Ummm...wrong. If you had any clue, you would know that imaging volumes are higher than ever, which is why many no longer consider radiology a "lifestyle" field.



....Also, what about other specialties now training physicians to read images on their own? This has always been a problem and the ACR has fought to keep radiology in practice and the only source of imaging being read.

Eh...very few examples of this. Cardiologists stole echo and several CV IR procedures. No GPs doctors read their own MRI's and discount what a radiologist says. Besides reading some straightforward xrays, this rarely happens. But whatever, you've made it pretty clear how horrendously misinformed you are.
 
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Although it never happened, it presents a very interesting point - That science and technology are not stagnant. They are forever improving and evolving. Right now the robots that we create cannot love or feel, but they can reason and learn when they make mistakes. And it will be true in the future that these things that they learned will assist them in making diagnoses in fields like medicine - and who knows what else!

Side note: (similar to Battlestar Galactica) if you believe we are all created by another - doesnt that mean we are all just very very advanced robots?!

.....just quoting again cuz I can't stop :laugh::laugh::laugh: at myself for trying to reason with a teenager (or a really dumb college student)
 
I like how you're just trolling this forum without any evidence. I'm the only one trying to give real data here. Another source is right here in NJ where iCAD has eliminated the need for biopsies to predict prostate cancer. The system will also highlight the problem areas before the radiologist even looks at the images (Source: http://www.northjersey.com/news/health/120184664_Prostate_cancer_detection_gets_easier.html)

Its also strange to me that in lieu of all of our scientific breakthroughs and use of computers and robots in health care organizations, doctors and medical students alike can still put their fingers in their ears and sing "la la la" if the information threatens their future in medicine.

And even so - as new technologies come into light, they most likely will not affect you, or any of your colleagues' jobs. But future generations may have this to worry about, and should take it more seriously.

....Also, what about outsourcing affecting radiology? 10 years ago, very few practices used computer imaging to diagnose patients - it was all printed out by hand to be read by the radiologist. Now, since everything is digital, the problem of outsourcing is an issue for radiology that previously was never a threat. Hospitals can send radiographic images to india to be read for a fraction of the price that private groups have read them. Because of this, radiologists have lost an average of 15-20% business over the past 5 years.

....Also, what about other specialties now training physicians to read images on their own? This has always been a problem and the ACR has fought to keep radiology in practice and the only source of imaging being read.

All of this reasoning seems clear of the decreased need and use of radiologists in the future. Again, maybe not our generations future - but the future.

i think you should probably stick to battlestar galactica.:laugh:
 
My real concern is the fact that the ABR is churning out 1100 radiologists a year. No other competitive specialty is doing that and there is a reason. You can't flood the market and except everything to be ok. Unless they get their act together, it's going to be very tough to find a job.

yeah, i'm not too happy about this either... there is higher demand for radiologists compared to those other competitive fields, but it is hard to gauge how big the market it is.
 
yeah, i'm not too happy about this either... there is higher demand for radiologists compared to those other competitive fields, but it is hard to gauge how big the market it is.

Well the job market is crap right now. This past match had 40 unfilled spots. Word is getting out about declining reimbursement, which means you have to work harder to make the $, leading to it being less of a "lifestyle" field. Also people are realizing the job market is pretty lackluster right now as well. I don't know if the ACR has to contract residency spots, because med students are doing it themselves by not applying to rads as much.

Of course this will lead to less competition.... enter the FMG. But I think by then, they should have contracted the spots by 50-200 spots.
 
I'm not putting that much stock in the 40 unfilled spots. MCG was on probation accounting for 4 of the openings. I have heard that a few other programs just got cocky in their interviewing and ranking.
 
I'm not putting that much stock in the 40 unfilled spots. MCG was on probation accounting for 4 of the openings. I have heard that a few other programs just got cocky in their interviewing and ranking.

yeh, lot of the other competitive specialties had the same percentage of unfilled spots. we'll see how things turn out. i am hoping that by the time i'm done with fellowship (like 4 years) some of the old guys will have retired and the market will be better as the economy improves. i have heard that there are a lot of old rads still hanging on. just at our residency a lone there are a few 60-70 yo. the thing is, people are ordering way too many rads studies now and there will likely be a push to try and decrease this. i dont things will be that bad though. it's really a moot point for me though. im already locked in and there is nothing else in medicine i would rather be doing regardless.
 
yeh, lot of the other competitive specialties had the same percentage of unfilled spots. we'll see how things turn out. i am hoping that by the time i'm done with fellowship (like 4 years) some of the old guys will have retired and the market will be better as the economy improves. i have heard that there are a lot of old rads still hanging on. just at our residency a lone there are a few 60-70 yo. the thing is, people are ordering way too many rads studies now and there will likely be a push to try and decrease this. i dont things will be that bad though. it's really a moot point for me though. im already locked in and there is nothing else in medicine i would rather be doing regardless.

There should be a decrease. It is getting ridiculous. Also, I just don't like how PP groups are having individuals read 100-150 studies a day. That is just way too many, you can't do a good report going that fast. I rather do 50-100 studies a day, and actually spit out quality reports than fry my brain doing 100-150 just to make an extra 100 grand a year.
 
.....just quoting again cuz I can't stop :laugh::laugh::laugh: at myself for trying to reason with a teenager (or a really dumb college student)

First of all, I'd like to point out that you are the dumb one for misinterpreting me. Of course you would jump in your mind to "what?! we arent all robotic moving pieces of metal?! he's wrong! I must troll."

It was just a sidenote to that user's comment about god. Dunno why he jumped straight to a ridiculous argument about religion, but I thought it prompted a ridiculous response about battlestar galactica and us being robots.

But, in that ending sentence, I was being serious. What I meant was, at the core, a robot is a independently functioning entity that was created by another. And the point I was making was that if you believe in a god, than you believe we are created and can function independently - which is what a robot is. That's all.

Now that we got that cleared up, I want it also to be clear that I'm not a troll, but someone who is having a lot of reservations about radiology, which is why I'm in this forum. My father is a radiologist, and spending some time in his office for the past 10 or 15 years, I've seen how the field has changed - for the better I may add - with new technological advances and digital imaging, it has increased the efficiency and flexibility that radiology has progressed to.

Being a giant nerd, I love problem solving, computers and have great hand-eye coordination from playing video games in my childhood (or maybe I was born with it....chicken or the egg). After having open heart surgery when I was much younger, I have changed my outlook on life and it has led me on a path of hoping to one day give back to the community for all that it has given me. What better way than utilizing all my skills towards helping others - interventional radiology.

I am in my final years in college and have been reading up a lot about the future of radiology and how some physicians believe that it may not be as prevelent that it is today. I'm hoping that it's not the case. And even so, I may end up in some other field. But I've just been very nervous about all of this and didnt mean to make it look like I'm just trying to start a feud. The topic of this forum is just a scary prospect of the future of radiology and I wanted to hear others thoughts about it.
 
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Well, I just matched into radiology, so it's a bit of a stretch to call me a troll. I would say that some random pre-med who has no vested interest in this argument, and is posting about the doom of a field in its own forum by quoting korean journals and battlestar galactica would fit more into the "troll" category. But hey, semantics.



You seriously need to learn how to critically analyze what you read if you think the conclusion of that article is that it "eliminated the need for biopsies to predict prostate cancer.". It was written by some website staff writer with no medical training, and there is absolutely 0 scientific data in that article about iCAD.





It is one thing to acknowledge the remarkable technological advancements of the last 20 years. It is another to assume that artificial intelligence will be able to mimic the human brain. You are allowed to wildly speculate that the progress in the past 20 years means that AI is inevitable. I am allowed to argue that the severe limitations of CAD shown by mammography suggests that it will never work. But this argument carries about as much weight as predicting what NBA team will win the championship in 2020.




I agree the potential of outsourcing is there. In a world with no lawyers, you would be completely correct. But in order to practice medicine, you must be licensed in your state. You cannot have a medical license in America without training at an American residency program. It would be illegal for any foreigner to practice medicine (ie read films on American patients). Unless this rule changes, outsourcing is a non-issue. Since there has never been a peep about this on Capitol Hill, it is pointless to even address.



Ummm...wrong. If you had any clue, you would know that imaging volumes are higher than ever, which is why many no longer consider radiology a "lifestyle" field.





Eh...very few examples of this. Cardiologists stole echo and several CV IR procedures. No GPs doctors read their own MRI's and discount what a radiologist says. Besides reading some straightforward xrays, this rarely happens. But whatever, you've made it pretty clear how horrendously misinformed you are.

Pwnt
 
Being a giant nerd, I love problem solving, computers and have great hand-eye coordination from playing video games in my childhood (or maybe I was born with it....chicken or the egg).

:laugh: @ hand-eye coordination from video games.

I bet your leadership skills are also excellent from all those intrepid raids into the depths of enemy territory
 
:laugh: @ hand-eye coordination from video games.

I bet your leadership skills are also excellent from all those intrepid raids into the depths of enemy territory

If you did any reading you'd know that there are a lot of studies showing doctors who have played video games in their past are much better and more accurate surgeons in their future, as video games improves eye-hand coordination. There is extensive research on this; one out of the many studies, below:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/202586.php
 
For all the crap I gave neo, I actually think this statement holds some truth. In a video game, you are controlling what happens on a screen with a controller/joystick etc. This isn't too different than a fluoro procedure (or, colonoscopy, robotic surgery), where you look at a screen, and use some kind of device to accomplish your goal. Both require a great deal of interplay between your hands and your visual system.

I'm not saying that it makes any difference in the long run, but I think those that spend years developing this visual system-fine motor system connection should have an easier learning curve during residency. Just to use an analogy, someone who spent years playing one musical instrument has a much easier time learning to play the guitar than a novice.
 
If you did any reading you'd know that there are a lot of studies showing doctors who have played video games in their past are much better and more accurate surgeons in their future, as video games improves eye-hand coordination. There is extensive research on this; one out of the many studies, below:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/202586.php

👍 I don't feel like digging up the articles, but there are some good ones on this. Some of the younger surgeons or residents will talk about gaming during procedures. Laproscopy=Halo.
 
http://archsurg.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/142/2/181

The Impact of Video Games on Training Surgeons in the 21st Century
James C. Rosser Jr, MD; Paul J. Lynch, MD; Laurie Cuddihy, MD; Douglas A. Gentile, PhD; Jonathan Klonsky, MD; Ronald Merrell, MD
Arch Surg. 2007;142(2):181-186.

Background Video games have become extensively integrated into popular culture. Anecdotal observations of young surgeons suggest that video game play contributes to performance excellence in laparoscopic surgery. Training benefits for surgeons who play video games should be quantifiable.

Hypothesis There is a potential link between video game play and laparoscopic surgical skill and suturing.

Design Cross-sectional analysis of the performance of surgical residents and attending physicians participating in the Rosser Top Gun Laparoscopic Skills and Suturing Program (Top Gun). Three different video game exercises were performed, and surveys were completed to assess past experience with video games and current level of play, and each subject's level of surgical training, number of laparoscopic cases performed, and number of years in medical practice.

Setting Academic medical center and surgical training program.

Participants Thirty-three residents and attending physicians participating in Top Gun from May 10 to August 24, 2002.

Main Outcome Measures The primary outcome measures were compared between participants' laparoscopic skills and suturing capability, video game scores, and video game experience.

Results Past video game play in excess of 3 h/wk correlated with 37% fewer errors (P<.02) and 27% faster completion (P<.03). Overall Top Gun score (time and errors) was 33% better (P<.005) for video game players and 42% better (P<.01) if they played more than 3 h/wk. Current video game players made 32% fewer errors (P=.04), performed 24% faster (P<.04), and scored 26% better overall (time and errors) (P<.005) than their nonplaying colleagues. When comparing demonstrated video gaming skills, those in the top tertile made 47% fewer errors, performed 39% faster, and scored 41% better (P<.001 for all) on the overall Top Gun score. Regression analysis also indicated that video game skill and past video game experience are significant predictors of demonstrated laparoscopic skills.

Conclusions Video game skill correlates with laparoscopic surgical skills. Training curricula that include video games may help thin the technical interface between surgeons and screen-mediated applications, such as laparoscopic surgery. Video games may be a practical teaching tool to help train surgeons.


Author Affiliations: Department of Surgery, Beth Israel Medical Center (Drs Rosser and Lynch), and Department of Anesthesiology, New York University Medical Center (Dr Lynch), Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Montefiore Medical Center (Dr Cuddihy), and Department of Surgery, Brookdale University Hospital and Medical Center (Dr Klonsky), New York, NY; Department of Psychology, Iowa State University, Ames (Dr Gentile); and Department of Surgery, Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond (Dr Merrell).
 
Van, did the article specify which games help the most? I have some...uhhh...."studying" to do before residency starts.
 
Van, did the article specify which games help the most? I have some...uhhh...."studying" to do before residency starts.

:laugh: I really don't recall. But...the residents that I talked to love first-person shooters. One of the attendings plays World of Warcraft. I don't think madden will cut it 🙄
 
Because we all know that the Seoul (korea) National University Medical Research Center is the bastion of medical research. Not to mention the Korean journal of radiology is so highly renowned. Lol, thanks pre-med, keep em coming.

Keep getting baked and predicting the future based on battlestar galactica

Hahahahaha.
 
Welcome to a vigorous discussion! I am a senior radiologist, and have heard this prediction any number of times from fellow radiologists, as well as other doctors, some of whom were competitors from other specialties.

Radiology, like any medical specialty, is subject to change. When I joined radiology, a lot of my IM colleages felt I was making a bad decision, throwing my lot in with a bunch of misfits who worked bankers' hours and made too much money. Fortunately, my reasons for becoming a radiologist had nothing to do with remuneration or workload, because I have never belonged to a 'rich' practice (e.g. one where partners make >= $600K/yr.) and have never in my career worked less than 60 hours a week and sometimes much more. I freely admit that some of my associates in various locations I've worked fit the stereotype more than I, but nearly all of them burned out early and are now retired or doing something less strenuous. The fact is, in order to do radiology well, you have to LOVE it, because only LOVE will enable you to deal with the radiologist's burden, which includes all of the following difficulties:

1. Building and maintaining a team of technologists (who make the images you interpret), receptionists, nurses, and managers, while developing mutual trust and regard which makes teamwork possible (hopefully inevitable). If you can't get along with other people from many backgrounds, forget about being a radiologist.
2. Establishing credibility with skeptical and sometimes competitive referring physicians through dedication to serving them and their patients, and caring about them and their practice difficulties.
3. Working with patients who are simultaneously scared of radiation, nervous about the results of their examinations, irritated by any delays or difficulties in their care, and fascinated by the technology your department commands.
4. Dealing with the inevitable malpractice suits. Since radiologists are currently involved in the care of most patients, if something goes badly wrong, it is certain that the radiologist will be named in the ensuing lawsuit. The worst part of this is getting sucked into a settlement when you, your defense attorney, and sometimes even the PLAINTIFF'S attorney agree that you were really not responsible for the bad outcome, but just involved in the wrong case. (This doesn't happen often, but this DOES happen, believe me.) Learning, hopefully, that the law is about WINNING, but also about compensating patients with a bad outcome, and still trying to do what is right. Learning as well that lawsuits (unless you really screwed up) have little to do with your value as a physician, and should NEVER be taken personally. (Some of these lessons apply to all physicians, not just radiologists, of course.
4. Attending meetings, reading papers and journals, pounding the WWW, for the latest information about image interpretation and technology.
5. Dealing with hospital administrations that are extremely variable in competence, honesty, and willingness to solve problems, and frequently hostile to radiologists and sometimes to physicians in general. Learning that a good administrator who is fair, willing to help and who likes you is a pearl beyond price (and fortunately not all that rare).
6. Constantly educating your fellow physicians (including those who do NOT refer) about your capabilities, limitations, and service availability, to enable them to most easily and effectively use your services.
7. While doing all of these other things, interpreting an unending stream of images, sometimes thousands of them per exam, and doing your darnedest to miss no significant finding (nearly impossible), answer the questions posed by the referring physician, and turn the raw data of the images into information (data with significance) that will make a difference in the care of the patient. Carefully compiling this information into a report that is concise, easily readable and unambiguous.
Usually generating the report, using balky continuous speech recognition software that can, if your weary eyes don't catch it, insert misinformation, disinformation or utter nonsense into your report.

So why should radiologists exist? If they add little or no value to patient care, they shouldn't. However, most radiologists add a LOT of value, even when they are NOT good at all the activities described above. Do not think that because other docs discuss the images without mentioning the report that they would ever consider IGNORING the report, unless their local radiologists are complete klutzes (a most unlikely situation in any academic locale). It is possible that the local rads are not friendly (slightly more likely in academe, I am sorry to say), or the reports are too delayed by bad management of the radiology workflow (hardly ever the fault of the radiologist and usually due to really BAD administration) to be useful on rounds.

I also add that doing all radiology via tele-imaging has been tried, and doesn't work well. There is no substitute for direct physician to physician interaction when difficult cases are involved (and radiologists see all of these sooner or later) and it is nearly impossible to do this effectively remotely, even using video conferencing. So, the idea of all radiologists working from home (an abomination--it is much MUCH better to be where the action is, and better YET to be able to see, talk to, inform, and comfort the patient) or from a beach in Sri Lanka is an idiotic pipe dream. Where teleradiolgy is useful is in providing emergency coverage and temporary readings in order that the local radiologists can sleep at night. And, if you think there will be no USA jobs for radiologists in the future, consider who will be asked to handle after hours teleradiology for India and China (3/5ths of the world's population) when their medical technology catches up and THEIR radiologists need a good night's rest. I hope by that time that schools will teach Hindi and Chinese, so that we'll be able to communicate with our overseas colleagues! Teleimaging is also useful for inter-radiologist consultation, which will assume a much larger role in the near future.

As I write this, the US job market for radiologists is not good (I can state this with great authority, since I have been searching for my next adventure for over a year now). However, in radiology, an apparent job shortage can turn into a tremendous job market very quickly, since in bad times radiologists on the verge of retirement tend to hang in to help their practices, and then depart en masse when the crisis is over. The current uncertainty about payment from Medicare et al, as well as the bad general economy, has created a crisis mentality in the specialty, and, once conditions become more stable, that will dissipate.
 
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