no research for competitive speciality

[ahk7]

Hello everyone,
I am an incoming M1 and currently I am interested in orthopedic surgery or neurosurgery. I was wondering if research is necessary to get into these residency programs? I am not really interested in research. If down the line I decide to go into a less competitive specialty like cardiology do those REQUIRE research as well?

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[DrStephenStrange]

Yes, very necessary. Look at the 2020 NRMP charting outcome.

 

[Lawpy]

Hello everyone,
I am an incoming M1 and currently I am interested in orthopedic surgery or neurosurgery. I was wondering if research is necessary to get into these residency programs? I am not really interested in research. If down the line I decide to go into a less competitive specialty like cardiology do those REQUIRE research as well?

Cards is a fellowship after IM residency and they're big on research too

 

[Redpancreas]

Cards is a fellowship after IM residency and they're big on research too

OP is an M1 and while it might hurt some Cardiologist egos, he/she is correct by calling it a less competitive specialty from a medical student perspective relative to Ortho/NSG. Most succesful Cardiology fellowship applicants start their Cardiology research in intern year of residency, not medical school. I'm not saying many don't start in medical school and it does give them an advantage, but it's not necessary. If OP wants to do Cards research now, all power to them and it will give them a headstart, but their first priority should be getting the grades/scores to get them past the screens that make it possible to match academic IM programs. OTOH like others have said, for Ortho/NSG, you need pubs to even get your foot in the door.

 

[bioboy23]

Yes, very necessary. Look at the 2020 NRMP charting outcome.View attachment 339316

I’m curious… what exactly counts as a research “experience”? I’m guessing that isn’t just pubs

 

[Lawpy]

OP is an M1 and while it might hurt some Cardiologist egos, he/she is correct by calling it a less competitive specialty from a medical student perspective relative to Ortho/NSG. Most succesful Cardiology fellowship applicants start their Cardiology research in intern year of residency, not medical school. I'm not saying many don't start in medical school and it does give them an advantage, but it's not necessary. If OP wants to do Cards research now, all power to them and it will give them a headstart, but their first priority should be getting the grades/scores to get them past the screens that make it possible to match academic IM programs. OTOH like others have said, for Ortho/NSG, you need pubs to even get your foot in the door.

Completely agree

 

[Redpancreas]

I’m curious… what exactly counts as a research “experience”? I’m guessing that isn’t just pubs

You're correct. There's no filter on ERAS for pubmed-indexable publications and is reliant on self-reported data. That said, you still need a decent amount of research. It's not just case studies and institutional poster days.

 

[Redpancreas]

Completely agree

We usually do.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I’m curious… what exactly counts as a research “experience”? I’m guessing that isn’t just pubs

Abstracts, presentations, pubs, case reports, etc...

 

[longhaul3]

Out of all specialties, neurosurgery is the one that expects the most research from applicants. In the current environment you basically need to do neurosurgery research to have a chance to match, and it will only get worse.

 

[GoSpursGo]

OP is an M1 and while it might hurt some Cardiologist egos, he/she is correct by calling it a less competitive specialty from a medical student perspective relative to Ortho/NSG. Most succesful Cardiology fellowship applicants start their Cardiology research in intern year of residency, not medical school. I'm not saying many don't start in medical school and it does give them an advantage, but it's not necessary. If OP wants to do Cards research now, all power to them and it will give them a headstart, but their first priority should be getting the grades/scores to get them past the screens that make it possible to match academic IM programs. OTOH like others have said, for Ortho/NSG, you need pubs to even get your foot in the door.

I mean this is true to a certain extent, but with the caveat that if you want to go into cards you probably want to go to an above-average IM program, and while research isn't necessary for academic IM it would definitely help more than just about any other EC.

But you are correct that this is a different level than a surgical subspecialty, where if you don't do research in med school you are DOA.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

By these NRMP reported research experiences, does this chart include ones that may have occurred prior to medical school as well? I couldn’t find any description on the NRMP report to see if this data was part of a specific timeline.

 

[Frogger27]

By these NRMP reported research experiences, does this chart include ones that may have occurred prior to medical school as well? I couldn’t find any description on the NRMP report to see if this data was part of a specific timeline.

yes it includes everything

 

[Frogger27]

I’m curious… what exactly counts as a research “experience”? I’m guessing that isn’t just pubs

A research "experience" is typically a specific project you worked on. If you end up with a lot of research, it is commonplace to group these research experiences together by mentor instead of the project.

 

[aldol16]

No research for a competitive specialty is problematic. It's competitive nowadays to the point where you really need some research (not necessarily publications) to be competitive.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

No research for a competitive specialty is problematic. It's competitive nowadays to the point where you really need some research (not necessarily publications) to be competitive.

Actually, it's come to the point where you need research because everyone else will have research. It's kinda like a check box. Same for high board scores. What's really gonna make you competitive imo is all the other parts you can control on your application.

 

[Doctor-S]

Hello everyone,
I am an incoming M1 and currently I am interested in orthopedic surgery or neurosurgery. I was wondering if research is necessary to get into these residency programs? I am not really interested in research. If down the line I decide to go into a less competitive specialty like cardiology do those REQUIRE research as well?

Competitive programs look for applicants with "quality" research experience (and not garden variety research box checkers).

We can delve into your research experience as well as your other metrics and alleged accomplishments. IMH ... it's fairly easy to recognize gamers at this point. There are many well-qualified applicants competing for a handful of vacant slots - especially those in surgical subspecialties such as orthopedic surgery or neurosurgery.

Programs want to make sure you are the most qualified applicant for the program and "quality research experience," among other things, will help to distinguish you from countless other ambitious applicants who have similarly positive metrics and professional aspirations.

As an incoming M1, you should have ample research (and non-research) opportunities available to you in connection with medicine and surgery. Feel free to explore these opportunities along the way AND take the time to adjust to the challenges and commitments associated with being an incoming MS1, too.

 

[Lawpy]

Actually, it's come to the point where you need research because everyone else will have research. It's kinda like a check box. Same for high board scores. What's really gonna make you competitive imo is all the other parts you can control on your application.

The sad thing in all this is the predatory journals are the biggest winners. So much crap is churned out yearly that i'm wondering if PDs even care

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Don’t know if this is appropriate for the thread (you can tell me if so), but would abstracts published in reputable conference journals count as pubs? There’s always been a debate on Research Gate about this, but I haven’t really heard many medical viewpoints about this.

 

[Lawpy]

Don’t know if this is appropriate for the thread (you can tell me if so), but would abstracts published in reputable conference journals count as pubs? There’s always been a debate on Research Gate about this, but I haven’t really heard many medical viewpoints about this.

No, publications are peer reviewed journal articles

 

[Arthur Morgan]

No, publications are peer reviewed journal articles

Thank you, that’s what I thought.

 

[Gilakend]

The best advice I think you could get is to get comfortable in med school, be passing your classes, then start shadowing. If there's something you like, start research in it. If you don't know between ortho/nsurg, you could do spine research (or just pick one, you'll have time to get experience in the other if you switch). Applying into ortho/nsurg is kind of an all-of-medical-school long process because of all the hoops you have to jump through. I also hate research, but it's just the nature of the beast.

That's not to say you can't decide late, but many I know who deciding later ended up doing a 5th year to be competitive.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Hello everyone,
I am an incoming M1 and currently I am interested in orthopedic surgery or neurosurgery. I was wondering if research is necessary to get into these residency programs? I am not really interested in research. If down the line I decide to go into a less competitive specialty like cardiology do those REQUIRE research as well?

Ortho surgeon here. Matching into ortho absolutely requires research, and a good amount of it. Without it your chances are essentially zero.

 

[aldol16]

Actually, it's come to the point where you need research because everyone else will have research. It's kinda like a check box. Same for high board scores. What's really gonna make you competitive imo is all the other parts you can control on your application.

Why are you repeating what I said?

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Why are you repeating what I said?

You said people need research because these specialties are competitive. So I was just reiterating the exact reason why OP needs research and that research alone doesn't make you competitive per se because everyone applying to those specialties will have lots of research experiences.