no vacation for post-docs

[retroviridae]

So I am finishing my post-doc before going on to residency. I've been here for three years on a T32, and have always been told I have 3 weeks vacation/year. Well, as I still have one week left, I thought I would leave here one week before I officially leave (take my last week vacation). Well, this had been approved within my section for sometime, when the department came back and said, "What do you mean take vacation? As a post-doc he doesn't get any vacation ... or sick days." I was dumbfounded. I had been told while applying for this position and by three different administrators within my service that I had three weeks vacation. Other people who had been on the training grant and are now faculty were told the same thing. Apparently, since this is what the clinical fellows get, it was always assumed that it applied to the research fellows as well (mostly people after residency or fellowship ... all MDs). Now, it seems that all along, as a research fellow (as opposed to a clinical one), I was never supposed to get vacation. Well, I actually work in a basic science lab, so I asked my PI and the post-docs here. They have always been told they get nothing, but most PIs do grant vacation as they see fit.

Why would anyone chose to work under these conditions? I mean, I already work 70 hour weeks when my NIH contract clearly states 40 (although again, according to my esteemed institution, I work at the whim of my PI). Is this the norm or is my college just shafting every post-doc?

My PI said we should be greatful we get paid. We should want to work for free. Back in his day he had to beg for food ... while walking 10 miles in the snow to work.

My new financial person (the one who told me this wonderful news) said she thought it was because most post-docs were non-US citizens. I just stared at her and said what difference does that make. Anyway to be on a T32 you have to be a citizen or a green card holder.

This really doesn't affect me; I will just leave a week earlier. But I can't imagine why all the other post-docs would work like this. We already work like dogs anyway. I just can't believe it would be the policy of the university to deny vacation or sick days to post-docs. OK, I'm done whining .... guess I should get back to the lab bench ....

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[beary]

I have never heard anything that post-docs don't get any vacation or sick days. That is absolutely ridiculous to expect somebody to work every day of the entire year - especially, as you point out, that most post-docs work very long hours anyway!

I used to get annoyed with my lab when I was a grad student because we were supposed to sign little sheets when we were out of the lab. I felt like I was working so many hours anyway that if I had to go somewhere for half a day or so I should be able to without reporting it. But all the grad students and post-docs I know take a few weeks of vacation a year!

 

[retroviridae]

I have never heard anything that post-docs don't get any vacation or sick days. That is absolutely ridiculous to expect somebody to work every day of the entire year - especially, as you point out, that most post-docs work very long hours anyway!

I used to get annoyed with my lab when I was a grad student because we were supposed to sign little sheets when we were out of the lab. I felt like I was working so many hours anyway that if I had to go somewhere for half a day or so I should be able to without reporting it. But all the grad students and post-docs I know take a few weeks of vacation a year!

I just want to bump this to see what are the official policies at other universities.

 

[uproarhz]

I just want to bump this to see what are the official policies at other universities.

I don't know about other universities because I work at a government lab, but I know for a fact that the postdocs in our basic science lab (even foreign citizens with no passport) get the same benefits as other full-time salaried people; that includes vacation/sick/holiday hour and health care benefits and such. And if they don't end up using the vacation hours they can either cash it out at the end of their appointment or use it at the end to have a month or two to look for a job or whatever.
Didn't they give you any pamphlets at the beginning about your rights and benefits and all that stuff? You might want to check any such document out. Best of luck and hope you get what you deserve!

 

[erock]

At the time I worked, the NIH considered post-docs trainees and not employees, thus no official sick leave, vacation time or benefits. It was at the PI's discretion to allow any leave time. My old boss once told me about an NIH PI who assembled his post-docs to let them know anything less than 80 hour work weeks just won't cut it. Some PI's are understanding and some are slave drivers. Pick the understanding one's at all costs.

I don't know about Universities either. It is possible, though, that if the post-doc is funded with an NIH training grant, NIH leave policy applies. If the University says you have leave time, get it in writing.

 

[retroviridae]

At the time I worked, the NIH considered post-docs trainees and not employees, thus no official sick leave, vacation time or benefits. It was at the PI's discretion to allow any leave time. My old boss once told me about an NIH PI who assembled his post-docs to let them know anything less than 80 hour work weeks just won't cut it. Some PI's are understanding and some are slave drivers. Pick the understanding one's at all costs.

I don't know about Universities either. It is possible, though, that if the post-doc is funded with an NIH training grant, NIH leave policy applies. If the University says you have leave time, get it in writing.

This is the rub. As post-docs, we are not employees. We get a stipend, not a salary. So basically, I am the same as a grad student, just get paid a little bit more. I believe this is no longer the case at the NIH. The NIH website says I am subject to the policies of my institution, but should be paid during vacations/holidays ... implying that I should get vacation. Well, the program officer for my training grant has come back and said it is up to my school.

Apparently this issue has come up recently with the Dean of the Grad School. They are "working on this." As I leave on Monday, I can only hope the policy will change. The Dean did say they realize most other universities do grant leave/sick time these days. I can only wonder if they will act on this or not.

You know, when I took this position, I was never shown any paperwork with my benefits. I thought this was strange, but just assumed it was a measure of disorganization within my service. I guess in the end, they didn't have anything to show me because it didn't exist. Verbal assurances aside, getting the link to the HR webpage stating the policy was the first I had heard of this.

Anyway, my PI and the Chief of Service have approved my "leave" so I will get paid for the last week even though I have already left. But the financial person did not seem comfortable with this situation. Worse comes to worse, I will just lose that week of pay.

In case you can't guess which esteemed institution this is, let's just say I'm in Houston, and it's not UT-Houston School of Medicine.

 

[iwutitan]

This is outragous... I mean I don't expect the time of doing postdoc to be heavenly or anything... but this is 😱 That cycle doesn't seem to end, I have to work so hard in college already trying to fit research into my schedule 😛 but I guess it is nothing compared to the coming years 😡

 

[dr.z]

I've never heard of this before. I'm a grad student, and post-docs in my lab used to get vacations (I'm not sure how much though). Your PI should let you have vacation as well.

 

[retroviridae]

I've never heard of this before. I'm a grad student, and post-docs in my lab used to get vacations (I'm not sure how much though). Your PI should let you have vacation as well.

no no. You miss th point. My PI does allow vacations. Most PIs here do. It is just that the written policy of the university is that we don't get any. So if a PI wanted to abuse the system, he/she could. Not all PIs are nice; not all PIs have your best interests in mind.

 

[GeneGoddess]

In case you can't guess which esteemed institution this is, let's just say I'm in Houston, and it's not UT-Houston School of Medicine.

So it's either Baylor or MDA. I know that Post-Docs at MDA get vacation, though my old boss was known to rant/rave every December about how holidays were no excuse not to be in the lab.

 

[retroviridae]

So it's either Baylor or MDA. I know that Post-Docs at MDA get vacation, though my old boss was known to rant/rave every December about how holidays were no excuse not to be in the lab.

I think we have a winner!

I believe state schools are required to give all employees certain benefits. MDA and UT-H pay more too, even for faculty.

 

[mendel121]

I think we have a winner!

I believe state schools are required to give all employees certain benefits. MDA and UT-H pay more too, even for faculty.

I am a post-doc at a state school, and there is no formal leave policy for us. We don't have to fill out time sheets like all other employees, but we also don't have the bank of sick/vacation time that they have. It is up to the dicretion of the PI, Idon't have a problem, but I imagine others with less sane PIs might.

 

[dl2dp2]

look you peeps,
the problem isn't that postdocs don't get vacation time. They can take a vacation for however long they want, so long as they publish, publish and publish more.

The goal of a postdoc is to be able to launch yourself into an independent academic tenure track. If you can do it without vacations, great. If not, you are screwed.

The system is a slave driver people!! When and how you get any result is a matter of luck! (most of the time). This is why those scary mofos in Korea cloned everything...they work ON SUNDAYS starting at 8.

I know a lot of postdocs who don't even take WEEKENDS off, let alone vacations. And they get paid squat. I'm not suprised that nobody wants to do it. It's as bad, if not worse than internship...at least in a hospital someone still appreciates you. (from my perspective anyway)

 

[b&ierstiefel]

look you peeps,
the problem isn't that postdocs don't get vacation time. They can take a vacation for however long they want, so long as they publish, publish and publish more.

The goal of a postdoc is to be able to launch yourself into an independent academic tenure track. If you can do it without vacations, great. If not, you are screwed.

The system is a slave driver people!! When and how you get any result is a matter of luck! (most of the time). This is why those scary mofos in Korea cloned everything...they work ON SUNDAYS starting at 8.

I know a lot of postdocs who don't even take WEEKENDS off, let alone vacations. And they get paid squat. I'm not suprised that nobody wants to do it. It's as bad, if not worse than internship...at least in a hospital someone still appreciates you. (from my perspective anyway)

scary but true. i would like to add that many postdocs in the US nowadays are foreigners. I know many chinese postdocs who work countless hours...they don't ask for vacations because they feel very fortunate to have the opportunity to even do a postdoc in the US. It's a very different perspective from the rest of us let's say, who take a lot of things for granted.

when these people work 80-100 hours per week, it's hard to compete against these folks. we have to match these hours and hope that we are more serendipitous that them. the advantage that many of us have is that we can communicate very well and the only thing we can count on is that these foreign postdocs do not have the communication skills to outcompete us for faculty positions. i have seen many brilliant postdocs, especially from asian countries, who if they could speak english fluently would pretty much take over the academic job market.

the fact of the matter is, foreign postdocs are willing to work much more for less money because they feel fortunate to EVEN BE HERE!!!!! we american citizens can't compete with them...especially if we want to have a life and not do science 24/7. they're in the lab at midnight...we're at the bar getting pissed drunk.

this is what i have noticed especially about foreign asian postdocs though. the asian education system trains people to MEMORIZE, MEMORIZE, MEMORIZE and not THINK, THINK, THINK! what i have observed is this: let's say that the foreign postdocs know how to do experiments A-J. OK? They suddenly encounter a new set of research problems. They will do experiments A-J on every single project without even THINKING about them. But since they work all those hours in the lab and work like crazy, they can get all that done. Hence, they have a crapload of data.

the american educational system trains people to think and understand more than memorizing memorizing memorizing! but if these foreign postdocs approach research projects in a permutational manner (let's try every single experiment, relevant or not, to any research problem), they are probabilistically more likely to come up with more useful data. the relatively lazy american who thinks more rather than working 80 millions hours a month may not be as productive just due to plain dumb bad luck.

so to do well in science, this is what we're competing against. we american citizens feel entitled. the foreign postdocs are willing to work twice or three times as hard as we are to achieve. we have several options. we can rely on smarts and serendipity. or we can rely on the fact that we can communicate better. nonetheless, there are more foreign postdocs entering the academic research arena these days. in many aspects, we need to match this intensity or take a hike!

the proportion of foreign graduate students entering graduate schools these days are increasing. i'm gonna focus on the grad students who come from the asian countries, especially china. for them to even make it to the US, they need to be the BEST of the BEST in their respective countries. they come to the US with the desire to work countless hours. the fact that the have the OPPORTUNITY to even work in the USA is the best thing that has ever happened to them...it's a fresh and different perspective than us who have many options as to where we will pursue graduate study. they graduate with PhDs in 3-4 years and they WILL do postdocs in the US. this is what YOU, as american citizens who join MSTPs and want to pursue a career in science, have to compete against if you ultimately wanna do science! i don't mean to be ethnocentric, but this is reality. if they're not taking vacations, you shouldn't either! (if you wanna keep your head above water)

the fortunate reality is that you will get an MD from a accredited US medical institution. you have a leg up on these folks in that their MD (if they have one) is virtually useless if they're not board certified in the US. NONETHELESS, scientific achievement is achievement. ultimately, it is your publication record that matters. if you want to publish a lot and outcompete others for faculty positions the best you can, you need to work a lot of hours. whether that depends on how judiciously you take vacations or not is up to you.

 

[marionseven14]

Have you been reading Thomas Friedman (nytimes columnist) lately? He's been writing a lot about international competativeness recently (though mostly about the tech sector). Here's his most recent column: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/03/opinion/03friedman.html?incamp=article_popular_2 (requires free registration). Its a lot to think about, and a pretty scary reality that, as he descibes in this article, not just the US has to face.

scary but true. i would like to add that many postdocs in the US nowadays are foreigners. I know many chinese postdocs who work countless hours...they don't ask for vacations because they feel very fortunate to have the opportunity to even do a postdoc in the US. It's a very different perspective from the rest of us let's say, who take a lot of things for granted.

when these people work 80-100 hours per week, it's hard to compete against these folks. we have to match these hours and hope that we are more serendipitous that them. the advantage that many of us have is that we can communicate very well and the only thing we can count on is that these foreign postdocs do not have the communication skills to outcompete us for faculty positions. i have seen many brilliant postdocs, especially from asian countries, who if they could speak english fluently would pretty much take over the academic job market.

the fact of the matter is, foreign postdocs are willing to work much more for less money because they feel fortunate to EVEN BE HERE!!!!! we american citizens can't compete with them...especially if we want to have a life and not do science 24/7. they're in the lab at midnight...we're at the bar getting pissed drunk.

this is what i have noticed especially about foreign asian postdocs though. the asian education system trains people to MEMORIZE, MEMORIZE, MEMORIZE and not THINK, THINK, THINK! what i have observed is this: let's say that the foreign postdocs know how to do experiments A-J. OK? They suddenly encounter a new set of research problems. They will do experiments A-J on every single project without even THINKING about them. But since they work all those hours in the lab and work like crazy, they can get all that done. Hence, they have a crapload of data.

the american educational system trains people to think and understand more than memorizing memorizing memorizing! but if these foreign postdocs approach research projects in a permutational manner (let's try every single experiment, relevant or not, to any research problem), they are probabilistically more likely to come up with more useful data. the relatively lazy american who thinks more rather than working 80 millions hours a month may not be as productive just due to plain dumb bad luck.

so to do well in science, this is what we're competing against. we american citizens feel entitled. the foreign postdocs are willing to work twice or three times as hard as we are to achieve. we have several options. we can rely on smarts and serendipity. or we can rely on the fact that we can communicate better. nonetheless, there are more foreign postdocs entering the academic research arena these days. in many aspects, we need to match this intensity or take a hike!

the proportion of foreign graduate students entering graduate schools these days are increasing. i'm gonna focus on the grad students who come from the asian countries, especially china. for them to even make it to the US, they need to be the BEST of the BEST in their respective countries. they come to the US with the desire to work countless hours. the fact that the have the OPPORTUNITY to even work in the USA is the best thing that has ever happened to them...it's a fresh and different perspective than us who have many options as to where we will pursue graduate study. they graduate with PhDs in 3-4 years and they WILL do postdocs in the US. this is what YOU, as american citizens who join MSTPs and want to pursue a career in science, have to compete against if you ultimately wanna do science! i don't mean to be ethnocentric, but this is reality. if they're not taking vacations, you shouldn't either! (if you wanna keep your head above water)

the fortunate reality is that you will get an MD from a accredited US medical institution. you have a leg up on these folks in that their MD (if they have one) is virtually useless if they're not board certified in the US. NONETHELESS, scientific achievement is achievement. ultimately, it is your publication record that matters. if you want to publish a lot and outcompete others for faculty positions the best you can, you need to work a lot of hours. whether that depends on how judiciously you take vacations or not is up to you.