non-apa accredited internships: how much do they REALLY limit future career options?

[BrownEyedGirl2019]

I am currently going through phase 1 of the doctoral psychology internship process. The only sites that I have interview that are non-accredited. While the sites have seemed great, I’m debating whether I should even rank them because I don’t want an accredited internship to hurt my potential career goals. None of my professors or supervisors have been able to give me a clear answer regarding how much going to a non-accredited internship will actually affect my future career options. The only thing I’ve been able to determine is that it will definitely prevent me from working at a government agency like the VA. Does anyone have any experience with this? Does anyone know people who have gone to a non-APA accredited internship? How did this actually affect their future career choices? Should I just wait for phase 2 and not rank either of these non-accredited internships?

This process is so stressful. Thank you so much for your input, friends!

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[str63]

I think it depends what you want to do for a career. If you ever want to work at a VA or a hospital setting, it will likely hurt you. If your goal is private practice, then it likely won't matter unless you're in a state that requires an APA accredited internship for licensure. I'd recommend checking the state(s) you want to/could end up in for their licensure requirements. You may also want to share your future career goals here so those in the field can be more specific as to whether or not it will hurt you.

 

[WisNeuro]

You would not be eligible for employment in my hospital system, which is now about 70% of healthcare in this state, nor would you be eligible for VA employment here at one of the flagships. I also know the next two largest healthcare systems require APA accredited internships. So, without that, you are out of the running at 90%+ of the available jobs in institutional settings in this state.

In the end, you have to do what you have to do. But, my advice at the level of students still pursuing internship and postdoc is to give yourself as much flexibility as you can when it comes to jobs. Especially in some areas where therapy jobs are being lost to cheaper midlevels and its saturated with psychologists, you want to have as many options open to you as you can.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I would agree with str63 in that it can depend to some extent on your career goals. Non-accredited internships will, in general, make licensing and credentialing with any organization and state more of a headache. You'll need to prove to/show the credentialing body that your internship was equivalent with an accredited experience, so you may need to provide syllabi from didactics, additional information about numbers and types of patients seen/clinical duties performed, supervision received, etc. It may also be a deal-breaker for various hospitals, which can have similar requirements to VA/DoD/BoP.

The one potential exception, in some circumstances, being if the internship is newly-created. In that case, some employers may be willing to make an exception. VA, for example, allows folks who completed new VA internships that are in good standing with OAA but not yet accredited to be eligible for VA employment.

 

[ClinicalABA]

A non-accredited internship has the paotential to significantly limit your options for jobs and portability (I’m in a large private group practice, and we wouldn’t hire someone from a non APA internship). Accreditation is a MINIMUM standard. You MAY do just fine with a non-APA internship, but you won’t have as much “portability”, and you just can’t predict where you’ll end up and need to work.

None of my professors or supervisors have been able to give me a clear answer regarding how much going to a non-accredited internship will actually affect my future career options.

For real? This is alarming. In many programs, student aren’t allowed to apply to non-APA internships. That should tell you something.

 

[Justanothergrad]

If it were me, I would not apply to or rank unaccredited sites. This is doubly true given the match situation.

>>I would not want to cut off employment options, as unaccredited sites do that.
>>I would not want to add credence to any potential employment concerns about myself (such as a lack of sufficient experience or whatever), and the internship accreditation status may play a role for early career efforts.
>>I would not want the increased hassle for my license/mobility.

It is concerning to me that your professors are not aware of the implications for this.

What do you see as the reason for your difficulty with obtaining accredited interviews? Is it a lack of hours, fit, over-emphasis on highly competitive sites,etc.? That may also be worth consideration with respect to your plan moving forward. Those same people (and people like them) will be making post-doc decisions as well as hiring decisions for jobs next year, so if it is any of the hours/training issue then it doubles up the issue of an unaccredited site and is worth considering in your plan B.

 

[erg923]

No VA, No DoD/Military, most academic medical centers, many large hospitals systems, jumping through alot of hoops for license and ABPP and license portability credentials such as CPQ or HSPP, should you chose to pursue these.

It also whitles down the options for post-docs that will look art you, so right out of the gate you are limited...not to mention all of what I wrote above.

 

[PsyDr]

Say you have unlimited money, and you're looking to buy health insurance. Do you buy the one where everything is covered and there is zero deductible? Or do you buy the one that is less expensive, but has a $3k deductible, and doesn't cover like...cancer or something?

 

[WisNeuro]

Say you have unlimited money, and you're looking to buy health insurance. Do you buy the one where everything is covered and there is zero deductible? Or do you buy the one that is less expensive, but has a $3k deductible, and doesn't cover like...cancer or something?

But what if I don't ever plan on having cancer? Only other people get cancer.

 

[Justanothergrad]

But what if I don't ever plan on having cancer? Only other people get cancer.

Plus, I know one guy who beat cancer

 

[str63]

Say you have unlimited money, and you're looking to buy health insurance. Do you buy the one where everything is covered and there is zero deductible? Or do you buy the one that is less expensive, but has a $3k deductible, and doesn't cover like...cancer or something?

If I really had unlimited money, I don't know that I'd care about buying health insurance. 😉

 

[psych.meout]

Plus, I know one guy who beat cancer

My dad can beat up your dad's cancer.

 

[denimfan]

I am currently going through phase 1 of the doctoral psychology internship process. The only sites that I have interview that are non-accredited. While the sites have seemed great, I’m debating whether I should even rank them because I don’t want an accredited internship to hurt my potential career goals. None of my professors or supervisors have been able to give me a clear answer regarding how much going to a non-accredited internship will actually affect my future career options. The only thing I’ve been able to determine is that it will definitely prevent me from working at a government agency like the VA. Does anyone have any experience with this? Does anyone know people who have gone to a non-APA accredited internship? How did this actually affect their future career choices? Should I just wait for phase 2 and not rank either of these non-accredited internships?

This process is so stressful. Thank you so much for your input, friends!

You definitely have your own situation and I do not want to misspeak on how you got to where you are now, but I do not understand why you even applied to non-accredited sites in the first place. This is a warning sign for you to reflect on the legitimacy of the training and the quality of the mentorship you have been receiving from your program. The fact that you are asking this question means you are already being limited with your career outlook. Furthermore, you did not receive any interview offers from accredited places you applied to. Best bet is probably to go through phase II with accredited sites and if that doesn't work out, retry next year by making yourself competitive for accredited sites.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I am currently going through phase 1 of the doctoral psychology internship process. The only sites that I have interview that are non-accredited. While the sites have seemed great, I’m debating whether I should even rank them because I don’t want an accredited internship to hurt my potential career goals. None of my professors or supervisors have been able to give me a clear answer regarding how much going to a non-accredited internship will actually affect my future career options. The only thing I’ve been able to determine is that it will definitely prevent me from working at a government agency like the VA. Does anyone have any experience with this? Does anyone know people who have gone to a non-APA accredited internship? How did this actually affect their future career choices? Should I just wait for phase 2 and not rank either of these non-accredited internships?

This process is so stressful. Thank you so much for your input, friends!

You’ve gotten some accurate (and likely uncomfortable) feedback above. While it’s pretty clear that a non-APA internship will limit your options and should be avoide if possible, I do think you need to evaluate your decision in light of the model and type training you have received. Based on the facts that a) your program allowed you to apply to non-APA program, b) your professors weren’t very helpful/knowledgeable, and c) you had difficulties getting interviews at accredited sites, I’m going to make an assumption that you’re at a larger-cohort professional school that is costing a lot of money. You may need to honestly assess whether or not sticking around another year is going to make you more competitive. If it going to cost another 30k (plus interest if financed, as well as opportunity costs) to be just as competitive next year, you might want to consider cutting your losses and going ahead with the interviews.

 

[PsyDr]

My dad can beat up your dad's cancer.

Several years too late on that front.

(sad trombone)

 

[AbnormalPsych]

My dad can beat up your dad's cancer.

Did he take turmeric? He probably took turmeric. I hear that's how you beat cancer.

 

[hellocanada]

Thanks for asking this! I actually have a follow-up question: does everyone's advice (which largely seems to be "don't do it!") also apply to doing a CPA-accredited internship if your goal is to be employed/licensed in the U.S.? I know the reciprocity agreement is no longer official and technically CPA-accredited sites are not "APA accredited"--does that mean one still can't get jobs in the VA or other major hospital systems after completing an accredited Canadian internship?

 

[Justanothergrad]

Thanks for asking this! I actually have a follow-up question: does everyone's advice (which largely seems to be "don't do it!") also apply to doing a CPA-accredited internship if your goal is to be employed/licensed in the U.S.? I know the reciprocity agreement is no longer official and technically CPA-accredited sites are not "APA accredited"--does that mean one still can't get jobs in the VA or other major hospital systems after completing an accredited Canadian internship?

Do your internship where you want to be. If that's the US, do it here. There is no reason to go CPA. You would be at a noticeable disadvantage compared to others who have done internship at the VA (connections, topical/systemic awareness of the VA, more appropriate training, etc) even if it is technically allowed (I assume so but have no clue since I've never known someone at the VA who did this)

 

[erg923]

Thanks for asking this! I actually have a follow-up question: does everyone's advice (which largely seems to be "don't do it!") also apply to doing a CPA-accredited internship if your goal is to be employed/licensed in the U.S.? I know the reciprocity agreement is no longer official and technically CPA-accredited sites are not "APA accredited"--does that mean one still can't get jobs in the VA or other major hospital systems after completing an accredited Canadian internship?

For the VA:
You must have successfully completed a professional psychology internship training program that was accredited by APA or CPA at the time the program was completed and that is consistent with the assignment for which the applicant is to be employed; OR, New VHA psychology internship programs that are in the process of applying for APA accreditation are acceptable in fulfillment of the internship requirement, provided that such programs were sanctioned by the VHA Central Office Program Director for Psychology and the VHA Office of Academic Affiliations at the time that the individual was an intern.

That said, not sure why you would do this. The healthcare system in Canada is vastly different with a different culture. There is not much of an internship imbalance anymore, so I don't think desperation or anxiety about not matching is warranted enough to do this either.

 

[erg923]

As an aside, this is relatively new:

OR, Applicants who completed an internship that was not accredited by APA or CPA at the time the program was completed may be considered eligible for hire only if they are currently board certified by the American Board of Professional Psychology in a specialty area that is consistent with the assignment for which the applicant is to be employed.

Curious how many have taken advantage of this?

 

[futureapppsy2]

As an aside, this is relatively new:

OR, Applicants who completed an internship that was not accredited by APA or CPA at the time the program was completed may be considered eligible for hire only if they are currently board certified by the American Board of Professional Psychology in a specialty area that is consistent with the assignment for which the applicant is to be employed.

Curious how many have taken advantage of this?

I could see some graduates from Wisconsin ‘s unaccredited Rehab Psych PhD program going that route.

 

[erg923]

I could see some graduates from Wisconsin ‘s unaccredited Rehab Psych PhD program going that route.

Still requires APA approved doctoral program.

 

[hellocanada]

Thanks for the advice. As far as rationale, I just liked the site/training more than several of the ones I visited in the US and wondered if it was wise to rank it as such. Plus, living in Canada is looking pretty good right now...😉

 

[Psych-ops]

Say you have unlimited money, and you're looking to buy health insurance. Do you buy the one where everything is covered and there is zero deductible? Or do you buy the one that is less expensive, but has a $3k deductible, and doesn't cover like...cancer or something?

Always get the best insurance coverage you can afford! It may hurt your pockets but your health and in the end your pockets will thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Childdoconeday]

I matched to an APPIC accredited internship and ended up being one of the happiest interns out ofmy grad school cohort The site I matched at had many resources, and I received formalized training in TF-CBT and EMDR. I strengthened my skills as a clinician, was supported, and was immersed in a fantastic worksite. Since graduating, I immediately acquired a post-doc, was then promoted to staff psychologist, and am now looking for jobs for various reasons. I have begun to interview at placements, (private practices and healthcare systems), and have received positive feedback and my internship has not come up once.

Having said that, I would not apply to a VA system nor would I apply to sites that specifically ask for an APA accredited internship.

If you don't match with an APA site, just make sure that you are very pleased/have heard reputable things about your APPIC site. I was extremely pleased and can say hands down that was my favorite experience in my career. If i had family in that area, i would work there for years and years!!!

 

[Justanothergrad]

I matched to an APPIC accredited internship and ended up being one of the happiest interns out ofmy grad school cohort The site I matched at had many resources, and I received formalized training in TF-CBT and EMDR. I strengthened my skills as a clinician, was supported, and was immersed in a fantastic worksite. Since graduating, I immediately acquired a post-doc, was then promoted to staff psychologist, and am now looking for jobs for various reasons. I have begun to interview at placements, (private practices and healthcare systems), and have received positive feedback and my internship has not come up once.

Having said that, I would not apply to a VA system nor would I apply to sites that specifically ask for an APA accredited internship.

If you don't match with an APA site, just make sure that you are very pleased/have heard reputable things about your APPIC site. I was extremely pleased and can say hands down that was my favorite experience in my career. If i had family in that area, i would work there for years and years!!!

Appic does not accredit anything.

 

[psych.meout]

I matched to an APPIC accredited internship and ended up being one of the happiest interns out ofmy grad school cohort The site I matched at had many resources, and I received formalized training in TF-CBT and EMDR. I strengthened my skills as a clinician, was supported, and was immersed in a fantastic worksite. Since graduating, I immediately acquired a post-doc, was then promoted to staff psychologist, and am now looking for jobs for various reasons. I have begun to interview at placements, (private practices and healthcare systems), and have received positive feedback and my internship has not come up once.

Having said that, I would not apply to a VA system nor would I apply to sites that specifically ask for an APA accredited internship.

If you don't match with an APA site, just make sure that you are very pleased/have heard reputable things about your APPIC site. I was extremely pleased and can say hands down that was my favorite experience in my career. If i had family in that area, i would work there for years and years!!!

What are post-hoc rationalizations, Alex?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Let's please try to remain professional/helpful.

RE: APPIC accreditation, it's a common misconception, but as was mentioned, APPIC does not actually accredit programs. Programs can opt to be APPIC members, which requires submitting information on a variety of factors, but the application and verification process is not nearly as in-depth as with APA accreditation (and APPIC readily acknowledges this).

 

[SmithPsy24]

I attended a PsyD program where there were usually several students each year who took non-APA internships. Everyone is employed, so it can work out, but those students have accepted the limitations on their job opportunities in the future. I will also note that in several of these cases, people from our program had matched to the non-APA program for several years and were able to vouch for the good training. (Not sure why the site I'm thinking of never went for accreditation - possibly the cost.)

I would also note that in some cases, the students had connections who were interested in employing them regardless of where they matched, in other words they work at places where they completed a practicum or had previously done some work as a side gig.

Basically, it can be done, but your connections and hustle will become a lot more important because your internship didn't have that seal of approval. If there are recent grads from your program who have taken non-accredited internships I highly recommend discussing it with them to find out if they ran into any obstacles in licensure and employment.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I would never recommend a non-accredited internship simply because you can never "fix" it. Sure, you may want to work at X place that doesn't require an accredited internship now, but in 5 or 10 years if you want to work in a VA or if a great job opens up in a healthcare system that requires an accredited internship or if you move, etc., etc., you can never undo that disqualification. Even though it sucks, I'd say that people would almost always be better off risking not matching than matching to a site that isn't APA-accredited.

 

[Chalupacabra]

Any thoughts on weighing progress into the APA accreditation process? For example, if a site is going for contingency status and has a site visit scheduled seems, at least on paper, far less risky a proposition than one that is still in the process of completing the self-study and/or doesn't have confirmation of a site visit. It also seems (again, at least on paper), that the standards for contingency are less stringent than those for full accreditation and may expedite the process. The CoA website has a lot of good info, but unfortunately I didn't see much in terms of how common it is for sites to not be offered accreditation after the site visit, nor if this is in any way affected by the type of accreditation they're seeking.

All this is said with the acknowledgement that at the end of the day an already accredited site will be the least risky proposition.

 

[WisNeuro]

Accredited, on contingency will count as having an accredited internship upon completion for the most part. The standards for contingency are the same, they are just a newer program in terms of their seeking to become accredited, so they have all of the pieces in place, they just need more distal outcome data.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Any thoughts on weighing progress into the APA accreditation process? For example, if a site is going for contingency status and has a site visit scheduled seems, at least on paper, far less risky a proposition than one that is still in the process of completing the self-study and/or doesn't have confirmation of a site visit. It also seems (again, at least on paper), that the standards for contingency are less stringent than those for full accreditation and may expedite the process. The CoA website has a lot of good info, but unfortunately I didn't see much in terms of how common it is for sites to not be offered accreditation after the site visit, nor if this is in any way affected by the type of accreditation they're seeking.

All this is said with the acknowledgement that at the end of the day an already accredited site will be the least risky proposition.

My internship was in the final steps of accreditation (though not yet accredited) when I applied. They happily showed me their application materials, as well as correspondence from APA that gave me confidence that they would be accr3dited before I began. Accreditation was given a few months after I accepted and few months before I started. It’s still risky, but this was truly a perfect fit scenario for me (and my wife- who also had career implications and state licensure to consider). The timing was perfect, in that I was able to accept their offer and withdraw from the match.

 

[Jegg]

My internship was in the final steps of accreditation (though not yet accredited) when I applied. They happily showed me their application materials, as well as correspondence from APA that gave me confidence that they would be accr3dited before I began. Accreditation was given a few months after I accepted and few months before I started. It’s still risky, but this was truly a perfect fit scenario for me (and my wife- who also had career implications and state licensure to consider). The timing was perfect, in that I was able to accept their offer and withdraw from the match.

I had a similar situation. The DCT was certain they'd have it in a few months. Great site match for me. Wouldn't require me to move. All the accredited sites required me to relocate. I just couldn't bring myself to take the risk. They did end up accredited a few months later, and I ended up relocating. What can you do...

 

[forcefive17]

Late to the game on this one, but I have an anecdote from a hiring perspective. Currently working within the DoD and hiring for a psych position. We have four levels of screening prior to a job offer that make sure an internship is APA accredited. During this particular interview, an applicant snuck into our pool. This person is currently employed by the DoD in a foreign country and nobody bothered to check during the first application. Long story short, the DoD is so stringent on this requirement that the interview team was required to send a memo stating the deficiency. This person now has 3 months to obtain ABPP (to apply for a waiver with no guarantee it'll be granted) or this person is relieved of duties and will have to foot the bill for travel/move back to the US.

Get an APA internship, folks. The VA/DoD/DoHD/BOP are where you want to be if you're looking at career progression and benefits. Even if it's not on your radar now, why close the door before you're even licensed?

 

[laughingasong]

I really can't see myself working in the VA/DoD/BOP simply because of my field (school psychology). I'm interested in working either in a public school district, an RTC/group home/ somewhere in child welfare field, or an independent/therapeutic day school. How important is an APA internship in my case? I am debating whether to rank one site that is non accredited.

 

[StellaB]

I really can't see myself working in the VA/DoD/BOP simply because of my field (school psychology). I'm interested in working either in a public school district, an RTC/group home/ somewhere in child welfare field, or an independent/therapeutic day school. How important is an APA internship in my case? I am debating whether to rank one site that is non accredited.

I would think about how long you anticipate being in the field (decades for most, I imagine). It is very possible that over the course of your career, your interests may change, the lay of the land in terms of how individuals access psychological services will almost certainly change, and you may find yourself in a position where having an APA-accredited internship is a check-box that derails or sidelines your professional development. I can't imagine how infuriating and frustrating that would be, but it is a very plausible outcome of an unaccredited internship. Internship year is only one year - but you really can't do it over. To me, it wouldn't be worth the risk.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

People I know who do contract work for a few govt agencies, and who have done so for many many years, are now not having their contracts renewed because of new policy requiring independent contractors to have attended APA accredited programs and internships. These people are losing a huge chunk of their income. Why put yourself in that position now if it can be avoided?

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

I am currently going through phase 1 of the doctoral psychology internship process. The only sites that I have interview that are non-accredited. While the sites have seemed great, I’m debating whether I should even rank them because I don’t want an accredited internship to hurt my potential career goals. None of my professors or supervisors have been able to give me a clear answer regarding how much going to a non-accredited internship will actually affect my future career options. The only thing I’ve been able to determine is that it will definitely prevent me from working at a government agency like the VA. Does anyone have any experience with this? Does anyone know people who have gone to a non-APA accredited internship? How did this actually affect their future career choices? Should I just wait for phase 2 and not rank either of these non-accredited internships?

This process is so stressful. Thank you so much for your input, friends!

I strongly recommend AGAINST attending a non-accredited internship/ . More and more states will not license someone unless they come from a APA/PCSAS accredited doctoral program and an APA accredited internship.

 

[GradStudent2020]

I strongly recommend AGAINST attending a non-accredited internship/ . More and more states will not license someone unless they come from a APA/PCSAS accredited doctoral program and an APA accredited internship.

Do you know which states currently require and APA internship?

 

[Sanman]

Do you know which states currently require and APA internship?

No idea, I doubt anyone does. I can only speak for the states I am licensed in. If you don't have an apa accredited program or internship, many states leave it on the applicant to supply records for the training and prove equivalency to the board. So, it is up to the state and the professional board to except it or not. Good luck doing that down the line if the program or staff changes and you want to move. I found some states to be a pain to become licensed with APA everything and licensing in another state.

 

[Heylookasquirl]

Posting this question here as it seems similar to the topic. I interviewed at one non-accredited site and I really liked it. It's newly created (2015 or 2016) and is undergoing process to receive accreditation (submitted for self-study and had its site visit a few months ago) - it's up for accreditation hopefully this spring. Would this be a bad gamble to rank it? I'm basically gambling it will likely receive accreditation before I start. Advice?

 

[GradStudent2020]

No idea, I doubt anyone does. I can only speak for the states I am licensed in. If you don't have an apa accredited program or internship, many states leave it on the applicant to supply records for the training and prove equivalency to the board. So, it is up to the state and the professional board to except it or not. Good luck doing that down the line if the program or staff changes and you want to move. I found some states to be a pain to become licensed with APA everything and licensing in another state.

Do the states you are licensed in require an APA internship or can an applicant provide the materials to demonstrate equivalency?

 

[Sanman]

Do the states you are licensed in require an APA internship or can an applicant provide the materials to demonstrate equivalency?

One allowed equivalency materials, not sure about the other. I didn't really pay much attention to that area as I have APA everything.

 

[NotTheHoff]

As if clinical programs weren't incentivized to prohibit their students from taking non-accredited internships already, APA's program accreditation policies require even more work to document the training a student would get at any non-accredited internship. Programs that want to keep their APA accreditation have little reason to allow their students to complete non-accredited internships outside of the most extenuating of circumstances (if they'll even consider any).

 

[GradStudent2020]

As if clinical programs weren't incentivized to prohibit their students from taking non-accredited internships already, APA's program accreditation policies require even more work to document the training a student would get at any non-accredited internship. Programs that want to keep their APA accreditation have little reason to allow their students to complete non-accredited internships outside of the most extenuating of circumstances (if they'll even consider any).

How does that work, though? I thought that hundreds of students a year go unmatched and therefore go the unaccredited route. Do some programs prevent that? I applied to one APPIC, non-APA internship and as far as I know my program doesn’t explicitly prohibit that.

 

[psych.meout]

How does that work, though? I thought that hundreds of students a year go unmatched and therefore go the unaccredited route. Do some programs prevent that? I applied to one APPIC, non-APA internship and as far as I know my program doesn’t explicitly prohibit that.

My program explicitly prohibits us from applying to and ranking unaccredited sites.

 

[WisNeuro]

My program explicitly prohibits us from applying to and ranking unaccredited sites.

Mine did as well. Though we had 100% accredited match in the preceding 5 years when I applied, so I don't think anyone would have actually even considered a non-accredited site anyway without the prohibition.

 

[psyche27]

How does that work, though? I thought that hundreds of students a year go unmatched and therefore go the unaccredited route. Do some programs prevent that? I applied to one APPIC, non-APA internship and as far as I know my program doesn’t explicitly prohibit that.

That’s no longer true. These days there are more sites than applicants.

 

[GradStudent2020]

That’s no longer true. These days there are more sites than applicants.

There may be more sites than applicants, but hundreds remained unmatched after Phase I last year and hundreds matched to non-accredited sites during Phase I last year. What’s “no longer true”?