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FomaticSysDunction

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I resigned my residency. My PD advised me he could not write me a LOR. I ran afoul of my PD and I’m not sure how. I did make some mistakes, but other issues in my final letter are sculpted to sound bad, or things I didn’t even do. I received passing marks and logged 27 C-sections observed and assisted my PD said I had only done 2 c-sections. My preceptor never spoke to me and wasn’t even there most of the time.

I really want to be a doctor, and I have many doctors who have told me that I would be a good doctor.

Has anyone here ever matched back into a residency after not completing PGY1? Or heard about anyone who has overcome these hurdles?

How do you get a new ERAS token?

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I resigned my residency. My PD advised me he could not write me a LOR. I ran afoul of my PD and I’m not sure how. I did make some mistakes, but other issues in my final letter are sculpted to sound bad, or things I didn’t even do. I received passing marks and logged 27 C-sections observed and assisted my PD said I had only done 2 c-sections. My preceptor never spoke to me and wasn’t even there most of the time.

I really want to be a doctor, and I have many doctors who have told me that I would be a good doctor.

Has anyone here ever matched back into a residency after not completing PGY1? Or heard about anyone who has overcome these hurdles?

How do you get a new ERAS token?
Is he not giving you credit for your intern year or is this a dismissal? I have been through a non-renewal and know multiple others who have done the same. You have a tough path ahead of you, but it is not career ending.
 
Is he not giving you credit for your intern year or is this a dismissal? I have been through a non-renewal and know multiple others who have done the same. You have a tough path ahead of you, but it is not career ending.

I was under the impression that since I failed several rotations, I would not get credit for a full PGY1 year.

Have you posted your story here somewhere? What were your first steps? What did you do to get another spot. I’m certain my PD will try to shoot me down. I triggered the malignancy somehow.

It was a resignation not a dismissal.
 
First step is to find out if you will get credit for your pgy1. I have a thread from a while back that was titled contract non-renewal.

My program director shot me down to anyone who called in the most insidious ways. I got through it with a lot of hard work and a positive attitude.
 
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You contact your alma mater med school to go through the steps for another ERAS token.

The part where things get twisted, I believe you. As always, I am sure there is more than one side to the story.

If there are attendings that support you, you can ask them for LORs, I would do it on the down low though. Be prepared that possibly the program put pressure on them not to write you a letter.

Non-renewals typically don't require a letter of resignation from you. Perhaps they had you sign something saying YOU were the one that didn't want to come back next year, I could potentially see that. Anything they can get you to sign saying you're choosing to go away and acknowledging how much you "suck," is always what they want to CYA, even if a non-renewal opens them up to the least amount of potential liability in letting a resident go. Some programs still want to milk you to finish the rest of the year, even if they're saying you're not passing a bunch of rotations so they justify letting you go.

You need to be extremely clear on the terminology and what exactly is going on and applying here, ie probation, reports of probation to the medical board itself, termination/dismissal vs resignation vs non-renewal. SDN search can help you figure out the differences, how to figure out if you can appeal or if you should, or what else you might do. Always keep in mind, if your program seems set on you being gone, you WILL be gone and there is nothing you can do about that outcome. However, there are opportunities to be more or less completely screwed.

What did you sign?? A resident in hot water ALWAYS needs to act the minute any kind of "administrative heat" comes down, in the case of forced health or admin leave or probation.
I have a family member who works in admin who maintains this is always what any HR enacts on the pathway to letting an employee go and CYA for any legal blowback on that front. This doesn't mean that every resident that is put in these positions is going to be let go or that the program isn't earnestly doing what it can to remediate and keep you. However, these are certainly steps that make it easier for them to let you go should they feel the need to.

How do you act? You do your best to find an attorney (other threads detail how) and you put any paperwork they want your signature on, or any other document that is essentially sanctioning you, past them. You document document document what is going on. If your health becomes a factor in any of this, you seek help and go to your own providers ASAP and have them document. Before you are terminated, you request an LOA with support from a health care provider that will sign for this. If they want you to go to a PHP, well, there's threads for that too, but long story short, you again want an attorney, your own providers behind you, and document. If the medical board becomes involved, it's potentially easier to find attorneys to represent you with that, but don't expect them to be able to help you with your program.

Never bring up to ANYONE that you are consulting an attorney, unless it's the medical board that asks or an attorney advises you to, because often they do need to know you are being represented. At that point, you generally would have no more direct contact with the board and everything would go through your attorney.

The point is not to antagonize the program, and some programs will see you getting representation as just that. So I would not reveal this until it seems that it's necessary. Keep in mind the minute it comes up that you have legal representation, the hospital risk management team becomes involved. This is good and bad. It can tie the hands of the PD, which depending on what they had planned, could help or hurt you. However, if they're truly malignant or already hate you, and are already playing with their own processes on a legal front to screw you, you actually have little to lose and potentially something to gain by negotiating.

You DO NOT have to threaten a lawsuit, nor should you. You just say that you thought it best to have someone who could advise you on employment law on the best way to leave and move forward in your career.

You'd be surprised what a program will do to help you in order to get you to sign on the dotted line and go quietly, to avoid any degree of trouble. Keep in mind, even with the most malignant PD in the world, if the hospital legal risk management team becomes involved, they will generally have to do whatever they say. This can lead to an NDA (non-disclosure agreement) that can outline what exactly you and your program can say about each other.

It's come up on SDN that if you're trying to get to another program, another PD may figure out that an NDA is in place and that you resorted to seeking the help of an attorney with your last program, and no one wants a litigious resident. Also that the "tone" of a PD to PD communication could also reveal this. I maintain this is better than the other PD having full leeway to completely trash you and say whatever they want. If it came up, I would just say that you were overwhelmed with trying to figure out an equitable way to salvage your career, and representation seemed the best way to handle things as professionally as possible and with the least amount of difficulty involved. Possibly that won't work but I question walking away from a program in this circumstance without any legal protection whatsoever.

Ultimately, it's controversial what to do and the role of legal advice. If nothing else and you can afford it, advice is advice, you can choose not to follow it per your judgement.

Ultimately, what any resident might hope to get out of a negotiation, which should ideally take place before you're totally canned, (because a terminated/dismissed/resigned resident has essentially no employee rights as they are not an employee any longer). You can often delay that asking for an appeal or a leave (again, preferably before you are terminated)
1) NDA with program
2) Negotiated neutral-to-positive LOR from the PD (yes, even if they hate you, a neutral one can be obtained, unless they can convince the hospital risk management team that there is *more* legal liability created in providing one because you're just so terrible that there is no way they cannot say anything positive about you and must include certain negatives. (If an employee is hired to another job, and causes them problems, if the new employer can show that the old employer's LOR was a load of BS, they can actually sue them for providing an LOR in bad faith. So people are actually legally liable for the recommendations they give to other employers. This is one element at play in negotiating a letter). Employment law attorneys are not typically familiar with resident employment rules (which in the world of occupational law is bizarre by any standard), but negotiating LORs is a key part of their job and something they have experience in. And yes, your attorney can see that letter and can even negotiate it word for word. You may not get all your edits, but you'd be surprised.
3) Sealing your employment records and evaluations.
4) There may even be leeway on the ACGME milestone data (which is no doubt pretty damning) not being submitted to your record. Any program you work for, the PD can request this record if you go elsewhere.
5) A severance package, you can make a case for what you need this for. Reapplication costs, lost wages, paid vacation being paid out to you, COBRA, etc. See what sounds fair and could stick, an attorney helps here.
6) In return, you basically sign an NDA as well, and sign over your rights to ever sue the program for anything. This is what they want, and to a legal risk management team, much of the above is a very small price to pay to make you, the problem, go away quietly and cheaply.

Depending on how good a case they have for terminating you, how much they want to dig in, how important they feel from a legal standpoint it is to be free to blast you, will affect a lot of the above.

I'm not saying you're in a position to get all this, or that you will. But they're possibilities. And I list them, so that when residents are let go, which you CANNOT stop, you can try to do damage control. All you can affect is how you leave.

Consider going over my past post history on these topics.

I think it's too late for ERAS to be helpful to you for matching/soaping until next year. You may want to figure out how people look for spots outside the Match for this coming summer. Searching SDN could be helpful there.

If you know that the program is set on completely and totally boning you, provided you are not dismissed or terminated yet, these are strategies.

If you are have already signed something going away quietly, there is very little you can do unless you can PROVE discrimination, harassment, or other ways they essentially illegally "blackmailed" you into signing. All of which is extremely difficult. You have the most protections and options while you are still an employee.

NOTE: I am not an attorney, I am not qualified to give legal advice, and SDN is not for legal advice. I am merely sharing some opinions/ideas on where getting expert qualified advice may be helpful in your career, as SDN does allow users to share informal user-to-user experiences about career.
 
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Regardless of the terminology: termination vs resignation vs non renewal, it will be near impossible to obtain another residency position. Even if you are portrayed in the best possible light with a "resignation" , future PDs will view you as lacking commitment and simply quit when things get difficult and will easily quit again. They will simply assume you quit because things got tough and you could not handle or that you were forced to resign due to impending termination. So regardless of terminology of how you left your current program, you will be faced with a uphill battle of obtaining another residency. Even if your PD claims to "support" you, their LOR will usually be lukewarm at best given the pressures from their superiors/program administration. I speak from personal experience as I had to resign and failed to re-match/soap last week.
 
I resigned my residency. My PD advised me he could not write me a LOR. I ran afoul of my PD and I’m not sure how. I did make some mistakes, but other issues in my final letter are sculpted to sound bad, or things I didn’t even do. I received passing marks and logged 27 C-sections observed and assisted my PD said I had only done 2 c-sections. My preceptor never spoke to me and wasn’t even there most of the time.

I really want to be a doctor, and I have many doctors who have told me that I would be a good doctor.

Has anyone here ever matched back into a residency after not completing PGY1? Or heard about anyone who has overcome these hurdles?

How do you get a new ERAS token?

I have seen quite a few of these non renewal posts in the past few months, yes I realize that it's that time of year but perhaps programs have gotten more hardcore. You are in ob obviously, unfortunately one malignant specialty. I would say yes, certainly people get terminated and can find other residency programs. Is it easy? Probably not. Did you quit then before you were terminated? Is your PD not writing a letter of rec is taht what you are saying, ie- not supporting you to get a new residency?
I would say it's unlikely that you can get into the same field, but probably into something else. Maybe FM? Be ready to have a compelling reason as to why whatever happened happened.
 
Regardless of the terminology: termination vs resignation vs non renewal, it will be near impossible to obtain another residency position. Even if you are portrayed in the best possible light with a "resignation" , future PDs will view you as lacking commitment and simply quit when things get difficult and will easily quit again. They will simply assume you quit because things got tough and you could not handle or that you were forced to resign due to impending termination. So regardless of terminology of how you left your current program, you will be faced with a uphill battle of obtaining another residency. Even if your PD claims to "support" you, their LOR will usually be lukewarm at best given the pressures from their superiors/program administration. I speak from personal experience as I had to resign and failed to re-match/soap last week.

This is not correct at all. I resigned from my residency because I wanted to go into a different field and had absolutely no problem getting into another field and got a bunch of interviews. So resigning vs. being terminated makes a big big difference. There are always ways to make things look more reasonable or a career change, etc. if resigning vs if you were terminated.

Why did you resign? To avoid termination of because you wanted to do something else?
 
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I was under the impression that since I failed several rotations, I would not get credit for a full PGY1 year.

Have you posted your story here somewhere? What were your first steps? What did you do to get another spot. I’m certain my PD will try to shoot me down. I triggered the malignancy somehow.

It was a resignation not a dismissal.

Resignation is a more favorable outcome than dismissal. Dismissal is much tougher to overcome than resignation. I would find out how much credit you are getting.

Additionally are you finishing the year? I would try to do so. It would look weird if you didn't, particularly since you already resigned.
Do you have a log of procedures that are signed off?

I would try to make amends with the program. Were you put on probation? Technically they can't get rid of you without first having you go through remediation then probation then firing. If you resign because you feel the heat coming on they don't have to go through that. Again if your program is out to get you, it might be better to resign. You don't want to be in the setting of going through all the hurdles if your program is set on destroying you. Sometimes you can work it out where you resign and they give you credit, you re apply and say specialty x was not a good fit, so i'm doing y and all is well.

I did not even have a letter from my advanced residency program and I had no trouble matching in my second specialty. I had a letter from my internship PD though.

I don't know if all programs care - you will have to apply broadly and hope certain things go under the radar. Strategy matters in matching.
 
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I'm sorry to say, I think you waited too long to ask for advice. I think most here would have told you not to resign until the end of intern year at least. If you felt you wouldn't be renewed, you could have asked or waited for the non-renewal. The problem with resigning is a bad situation is made worse because people will believe you were going to be terminated anyway. No one really resigns in the middle of intern year for other reasons.

Right now, what I would do is contact your med school and get a faculty mentor to walk you through re-applying. Set up a meeting with your PD and ask about a letter. Either way, new programs will talk to him, so you need to do so first.
 
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I'm sorry to say, I think you waited too long to ask for advice. I think most here would have told you not to resign until the end of intern year at least. If you felt you wouldn't be renewed, you could have asked or waited for the non-renewal. The problem with resigning is a bad situation is made worse because people will believe you were going to be terminated anyway. No one really resigns in the middle of intern year for other reasons.

Right now, what I would do is contact your med school and get a faculty mentor to walk you through re-applying. Set up a meeting with your PD and ask about a letter. Either way, new programs will talk to him, so you need to do so first.

People resign all the time to look for different programs. It would be much harder if OP had canned.
 
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You contact your alma mater med school to go through the steps for another ERAS token.

The part where things get twisted, I believe you. As always, I am sure there is more than one side to the story.

If there are attendings that support you, you can ask them for LORs, I would do it on the down low though. Be prepared that possibly the program put pressure on them not to write you a letter.

Non-renewals typically don't require a letter of resignation from you. Perhaps they had you sign something saying YOU were the one that didn't want to come back next year, I could potentially see that. Anything they can get you to sign saying you're choosing to go away and acknowledging how much you "suck," is always what they want to CYA, even if a non-renewal opens them up to the least amount of potential liability in letting a resident go. Some programs still want to milk you to finish the rest of the year, even if they're saying you're not passing a bunch of rotations so they justify letting you go.

You need to be extremely clear on the terminology and what exactly is going on and applying here, ie probation, reports of probation to the medical board itself, termination/dismissal vs resignation vs non-renewal. SDN search can help you figure out the differences, how to figure out if you can appeal or if you should, or what else you might do. Always keep in mind, if your program seems set on you being gone, you WILL be gone and there is nothing you can do about that outcome. However, there are opportunities to be more or less completely screwed.

What did you sign?? A resident in hot water ALWAYS needs to act the minute any kind of "administrative heat" comes down, in the case of forced health or admin leave or probation.
I have a family member who works in admin who maintains this is always what any HR enacts on the pathway to letting an employee go and CYA for any legal blowback on that front. This doesn't mean that every resident that is put in these positions is going to be let go or that the program isn't earnestly doing what it can to remediate and keep you. However, these are certainly steps that make it easier for them to let you go should they feel the need to.

How do you act? You do your best to find an attorney (other threads detail how) and you put any paperwork they want your signature on, or any other document that is essentially sanctioning you, past them. You document document document what is going on. If your health becomes a factor in any of this, you seek help and go to your own providers ASAP and have them document. Before you are terminated, you request an LOA with support from a health care provider that will sign for this. If they want you to go to a PHP, well, there's threads for that too, but long story short, you again want an attorney, your own providers behind you, and document. If the medical board becomes involved, it's potentially easier to find attorneys to represent you with that, but don't expect them to be able to help you with your program.

Never bring up to ANYONE that you are consulting an attorney, unless it's the medical board that asks or an attorney advises you to, because often they do need to know you are being represented. At that point, you generally would have no more direct contact with the board and everything would go through your attorney.

The point is not to antagonize the program, and some programs will see you getting representation as just that. So I would not reveal this until it seems that it's necessary. Keep in mind the minute it comes up that you have legal representation, the hospital risk management team becomes involved. This is good and bad. It can tie the hands of the PD, which depending on what they had planned, could help or hurt you. However, if they're truly malignant or already hate you, and are already playing with their own processes on a legal front to screw you, you actually have little to lose and potentially something to gain by negotiating.

You DO NOT have to threaten a lawsuit, nor should you. You just say that you thought it best to have someone who could advise you on employment law on the best way to leave and move forward in your career.

You'd be surprised what a program will do to help you in order to get you to sign on the dotted line and go quietly, to avoid any degree of trouble. Keep in mind, even with the most malignant PD in the world, if the hospital legal risk management team becomes involved, they will generally have to do whatever they say. This can lead to an NDA (non-disclosure agreement) that can outline what exactly you and your program can say about each other.

It's come up on SDN that if you're trying to get to another program, another PD may figure out that an NDA is in place and that you resorted to seeking the help of an attorney with your last program, and no one wants a litigious resident. Also that the "tone" of a PD to PD communication could also reveal this. I maintain this is better than the other PD having full leeway to completely trash you and say whatever they want. If it came up, I would just say that you were overwhelmed with trying to figure out an equitable way to salvage your career, and representation seemed the best way to handle things as professionally as possible and with the least amount of difficulty involved. Possibly that won't work but I question walking away from a program in this circumstance without any legal protection whatsoever.

Ultimately, it's controversial what to do and the role of legal advice. If nothing else and you can afford it, advice is advice, you can choose not to follow it per your judgement.

Ultimately, what any resident might hope to get out of a negotiation, which should ideally take place before you're totally canned, (because a terminated/dismissed/resigned resident has essentially no employee rights as they are not an employee any longer). You can often delay that asking for an appeal or a leave (again, preferably before you are terminated)
1) NDA with program
2) Negotiated neutral-to-positive LOR from the PD (yes, even if they hate you, a neutral one can be obtained, unless they can convince the hospital risk management team that there is *more* legal liability created in providing one because you're just so terrible that there is no way they cannot say anything positive about you and must include certain negatives. (If an employee is hired to another job, and causes them problems, if the new employer can show that the old employer's LOR was a load of BS, they can actually sue them for providing an LOR in bad faith. So people are actually legally liable for the recommendations they give to other employers. This is one element at play in negotiating a letter). Employment law attorneys are not typically familiar with resident employment rules (which in the world of occupational law is bizarre by any standard), but negotiating LORs is a key part of their job and something they have experience in. And yes, your attorney can see that letter and can even negotiate it word for word. You may not get all your edits, but you'd be surprised.
3) Sealing your employment records and evaluations.
4) There may even be leeway on the ACGME milestone data (which is no doubt pretty damning) not being submitted to your record. Any program you work for, the PD can request this record if you go elsewhere.
5) A severance package, you can make a case for what you need this for. Reapplication costs, lost wages, paid vacation being paid out to you, COBRA, etc. See what sounds fair and could stick, an attorney helps here.
6) In return, you basically sign an NDA as well, and sign over your rights to ever sue the program for anything. This is what they want, and to a legal risk management team, much of the above is a very small price to pay to make you, the problem, go away quietly and cheaply.

Depending on how good a case they have for terminating you, how much they want to dig in, how important they feel from a legal standpoint it is to be free to blast you, will affect a lot of the above.

I'm not saying you're in a position to get all this, or that you will. But they're possibilities. And I list them, so that when residents are let go, which you CANNOT stop, you can try to do damage control. All you can affect is how you leave.

Consider going over my past post history on these topics.

I think it's too late for ERAS to be helpful to you for matching/soaping until next year. You may want to figure out how people look for spots outside the Match for this coming summer. Searching SDN could be helpful there.

If you know that the program is set on completely and totally boning you, provided you are not dismissed or terminated yet, these are strategies.

If you are have already signed something going away quietly, there is very little you can do unless you can PROVE discrimination, harassment, or other ways they essentially illegally "blackmailed" you into signing. All of which is extremely difficult. You have the most protections and options while you are still an employee.

NOTE: I am not an attorney, I am not qualified to give legal advice, and SDN is not for legal advice. I am merely sharing some opinions/ideas on where getting expert qualified advice may be helpful in your career, as SDN does allow users to share informal user-to-user experiences about career.

Wow. I’m just grateful that you sent this. I have new info about factors that figure into this situation.
 
Now I’m just thunderstruck - run straight through by lightning. It has floated back to me that this has something to do with my religion. Or actual lack there of. I have heard from faculty that my PD a devout Christian, has taken deep offense to my non belief. I don’t usually talk about my atheism. I’m the opposite of militant, really. As a physician I strive to be sensitive to the cultural needs of my patients, and the people around me. I bow my head if my patients pray, I put their comfort first. So now I’m just floored. Wow. You hear about things like this, but it never occurs to you that it might happen to you.

Now I have other things to think about.
 
Now I’m just thunderstruck - run straight through by lightning. It has floated back to me that this has something to do with my religion. Or actual lack there of. I have heard from faculty that my PD a devout Christian, has taken deep offense to my non belief. I don’t usually talk about my atheism. I’m the opposite of militant, really. As a physician I strive to be sensitive to the cultural needs of my patients, and the people around me. I bow my head if my patients pray, I put their comfort first. So now I’m just floored. Wow. You hear about things like this, but it never occurs to you that it might happen to you.

Now I have other things to think about.

Don't do this. If you go down the discrimination road it will end even more badly for you. Discrimination in these terms is incredibly challenging to prove, if ever/at all and just because you may or may not believe something does not make it true. Also I doubt that most PDs would sink you simply because you are an atheist. I'm a devout Christian and certainly don't agree with atheism but if I was a PD I certainly would not merely can a resident. That' sjust me but again I would not imagine the typical PD would do somthing like that. Again hard to prove, costly, and it will be kiss of death for you.
If you have resigned already you have resigned. If you get salty things might turn uglier - and when things turn ugly in Ob, better run.
 
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Contact an employment attorney before you make things worse for yourself. Don't fight this battle alone.There might be a way to finish the year, and part ways so you can get into another residency field. If you got through medical school, and secured an Ob/Gyn spot, you can succeed in another field for sure.
 
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I'm sorry to say, I think you waited too long to ask for advice. I think most here would have told you not to resign until the end of intern year at least. If you felt you wouldn't be renewed, you could have asked or waited for the non-renewal. The problem with resigning is a bad situation is made worse because people will believe you were going to be terminated anyway. No one really resigns in the middle of intern year for other reasons.

Right now, what I would do is contact your med school and get a faculty mentor to walk you through re-applying. Set up a meeting with your PD and ask about a letter. Either way, new programs will talk to him, so you need to do so first.

My letter stated that my resignation was in effect on the end of my last rotation. I’m still on the ward as I type, but I’m a zombie.
 
Going the "discrimination" route now, can only hurt you unless you're certain you can prove it. Somewhere someone linked to a huge brief on a discrimination case. I don't remember if it was won or not, but you can read what the legal experts actually involved in the case (presiding judge) had to say about the evidence in that case and decide for yourself.

There is only one specific way that I can see mentioning a worry about discrimination being a factor in this, and that would be pre-resignation during the negotiation phase with an attorney. In the same context as explaining why you would feel better if the terms of the resignation were negotiated. This is both carrot and stick, in the sense that you are saying why the hospital risk management team should be interested in offering you silence on both your parts and a neutral letter, and your voluntary termination of your rights as an employee and to sue. Because no matter if you would win or not, lawsuits can be filed and they can be expensive, and the hospital's reputation of having been sued for discrimination, even with a paltry case is still a factor. So if an NDA and neutral letter will avoid all this ugliness for the hospital, then that is where this comment could do you the most good and least harm. Although it could certainly cause harm. I would never allege discrimination in bad faith, and I would never encourage anyone else to, either.

However, attempting this after signing your "voluntary" resignation, if you don't have a darn good case they have basically no incentive whatsoever to negotiate with you. Any allusion to threatened legal action has different effects at this stage.

All I could say to anyone in medical training that has any legal concerns regarding their education, training, employment, licensing, sanctions, or really anything else, is get good legal advice ASAP.
 
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I have seen quite a few of these non renewal posts in the past few months, yes I realize that it's that time of year but perhaps programs have gotten more hardcore. You are in ob obviously, unfortunately one malignant specialty. I would say yes, certainly people get terminated and can find other residency programs. Is it easy? Probably not. Did you quit then before you were terminated? Is your PD not writing a letter of rec is taht what you are saying, ie- not supporting you to get a new residency?
I would say it's unlikely that you can get into the same field, but probably into something else. Maybe FM? Be ready to have a compelling reason as to why whatever happened happened.

I’m in FM. I just illustrated the problems I had with my OB preceptor during that rotation. Wow I’m so sad. This is all I’ve every wanted to do.
 
I'm sorry to say, I think you waited too long to ask for advice. I think most here would have told you not to resign until the end of intern year at least. If you felt you wouldn't be renewed, you could have asked or waited for the non-renewal. The problem with resigning is a bad situation is made worse because people will believe you were going to be terminated anyway. No one really resigns in the middle of intern year for other reasons.

Right now, what I would do is contact your med school and get a faculty mentor to walk you through re-applying. Set up a meeting with your PD and ask about a letter. Either way, new programs will talk to him, so you need to do so first.

My PD made it clear that he would not offer me a letter. This is a part of the problem. This PD is devoutly Christian and it got back to him that I am an atheist. He took really sadistic delight in including things in my record that were contrary to actual events, contradicted by my logs and other records. I have had problems with my PD that included unwanted touching (not sexual I think) just didn’t want physical contact. He does this to others in the program a few who get the same creepy vibe I do. Additionally this PD has shoved me on two occasions, so hard I nearly lost my balance. He was smiling like it was playful, but I was massively intimidated and scared. He’s made crude sexual jokes about patients though. My PD is malignant. So no LOR from my PD.

This isn’t to say that I don’t have issues that need to be addressed. Being organized, reading up on my patients. Double checking to make sure I have the right dose at the right rate at the right time. In addition I have issues with this PD. I know if you bad mouth a PD or attending in an interview it doesn’t go your way. My strategy needs pointers and advice. What is a good strategy to adopt???
 
My PD made it clear that he would not offer me a letter. This is a part of the problem. This PD is devoutly Christian and it got back to him that I am an atheist. He took really sadistic delight in including things in my record that were contrary to actual events, contradicted by my logs and other records. I have had problems with my PD that included unwanted touching (not sexual I think) just didn’t want physical contact. He does this to others in the program a few who get the same creepy vibe I do. Additionally this PD has shoved me on two occasions, so hard I nearly lost my balance. He was smiling like it was playful, but I was massively intimidated and scared. He’s made crude sexual jokes about patients though. My PD is malignant. So no LOR from my PD.

This isn’t to say that I don’t have issues that need to be addressed. Being organized, reading up on my patients. Double checking to make sure I have the right dose at the right rate at the right time. In addition I have issues with this PD. I know if you bad mouth a PD or attending in an interview it doesn’t go your way. My strategy needs pointers and advice. What is a good strategy to adopt???
I find it hard to believe that the PD is falsifying procedure counts.

There is literally no benefit to them even if they hate you and it’s 100% provable by OR logs you were there

And now you have an ever expanding list of offenses against them. Gotta say I question the entire thing
 
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I find it hard to believe that the PD is falsifying procedure counts.

There is literally no benefit to them even if they hate you and it’s 100% provable by OR logs you were there

And now you have an ever expanding list of offenses against them. Gotta say I question the entire thing

Agree. Procedures are log into the ACGME system. So if you log 10 C-sections, and at least in my program it was based on honor system, the PD can't say you did 2. It's understandable that OP is upset, it's a tough spot to be in. But even the most malignant residency programs, and I went to a pretty malignant one, have limits.
 
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My letter stated that my resignation was in effect on the end of my last rotation. I’m still on the ward as I type, but I’m a zombie.

If you resigned it's better than having been terminated. It can be spun someway, and you don't need logs. A letter of recommendation I figure is what you mean, I think otherwise they have to provide you with a letter of status or whatever it's called.
 
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What are the chances OP can get into another residency program without PD's LOR?
 
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Resignation is a more favorable outcome than dismissal. Dismissal is much tougher to overcome than resignation. I would find out how much credit you are getting.

Additionally are you finishing the year? I would try to do so. It would look weird if you didn't, particularly since you already resigned.
Do you have a log of procedures that are signed off?

I would try to make amends with the program. Were you put on probation? Technically they can't get rid of you without first having you go through remediation then probation then firing. If you resign because you feel the heat coming on they don't have to go through that. Again if your program is out to get you, it might be better to resign. You don't want to be in the setting of going through all the hurdles if your program is set on destroying you. Sometimes you can work it out where you resign and they give you credit, you re apply and say specialty x was not a good fit, so i'm doing y and all is well.

I did not even have a letter from my advanced residency program and I had no trouble matching in my second specialty. I had a letter from my internship PD though.

I don't know if all programs care - you will have to apply broadly and hope certain things go under the radar. Strategy matters in matching.

What specialty did you switch to? Why did you not ask your advanced program PD for a LOR?
 
What specialty did you switch to? Why did you not ask your advanced program PD for a LOR?

My initial advanced residency program was a bit malignant so I did not ask the PD for a letter. PD was not a fan of me, and she was not pleased that I resigned and wanted to leave the program and go into something else. It was never a problem, and I believe if I remember correctly that not a single program where I interviewed during the match for specialty #2 asked me for one? I had pretty good letters of rec in general, so perhaps that made a difference, not sure.
 
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Now I’m just thunderstruck - run straight through by lightning. It has floated back to me that this has something to do with my religion. Or actual lack there of. I have heard from faculty that my PD a devout Christian, has taken deep offense to my non belief. I don’t usually talk about my atheism. I’m the opposite of militant, really. As a physician I strive to be sensitive to the cultural needs of my patients, and the people around me. I bow my head if my patients pray, I put their comfort first. So now I’m just floored. Wow. You hear about things like this, but it never occurs to you that it might happen to you.

Now I have other things to think about.

I’m going to call this what it looks like - a total BS Hail Mary. You weren’t “forced to resign” due to your religious beliefs I am certain it was due to clinical deficiencies or, more likely, untrustworthy behavior given that clinical deficits can be remedied over time.

Go ask Eugene Gu how a discrimination defense went for him. Even if you are partially right, going after the institution guns blazing like this will shut medicine off likely for good - what program or institution is going to take a chance on a resident who will just sue and shout to the hills discrimination if he or she gets the axe? It would be better to just close the door on that chapter and move on. But you do you.

What are the chances OP can get into another residency program without PD's LOR?

It’s going to hurt pretty bad, best case is if OP has some friendly faculty within his or her current program or at the medical school to intervene and make calls. Perhaps he or she has a home program to lean back on. If OP is an IMG (especially non-US), it’s even more difficult. But most programs will want some sort of information or letter from the PD or program at large.
 
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I’m going to call this what it looks like - a total BS Hail Mary. You weren’t “forced to resign” due to your religious beliefs I am certain it was due to clinical deficiencies or, more likely, untrustworthy behavior given that clinical deficits can be remedied over time.

Go ask Eugene Gu how a discrimination defense went for him. Even if you are partially right, going after the institution guns blazing like this will shut medicine off likely for good - what program or institution is going to take a chance on a resident who will just sue and shout to the hills discrimination if he or she gets the axe? It would be better to just close the door on that chapter and move on. But you do you.



It’s going to hurt pretty bad, best case is if OP has some friendly faculty within his or her current program or at the medical school to intervene and make calls. Perhaps he or she has a home program to lean back on. If OP is an IMG (especially non-US), it’s even more difficult. But most programs will want some sort of information or letter from the PD or program at large.

Agreed. Eugene Gu or Maria Artunduanga, both pretty disastrous in terms of career ending when discrimination BS was pursued vs. trying to end things on better terms. Yikes. And trust me when I say that I feel there are plenty of malignant programs out there that definitely have no trouble or care to harm residents. But lawsuits are lengthy, costly and hard to prove. If I were to sue I'd sue AFTER having had completed a different program, not before.
 
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If you resigned it's better than having been terminated. It can be spun someway, and you don't need logs. A letter of recommendation I figure is what you mean, I think otherwise they have to provide you with a letter of status or whatever it's called.

It depends on how it's spun, but the spin really needs to be congruent between the applicant and faculty/PD of the program. In many of the application documents, a resignation made to prevent a termination is treated the same way.
 
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It depends on how it's spun, but the spin really needs to be congruent between the applicant and faculty/PD of the program. In many of the application documents, a resignation made to prevent a termination is treated the same way.

It depends. Not infrequently a resignation can be in lieu of termination. One of the attendings at our program who was a complete jerk resigned from prior residency but was to avoid termination, as you say, I believe that documents did state what you just mentioned. Bu again if the resident and program can work it out, residents can resign in lieu of being termination and have it state that the resident resigned. Reason why it's important in situations like these to try to work with the program vs wage war. It's very difficult to prove discrimination, and a bunch of other things. The program can typically always hurt you more this stage obviously.
 
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It depends. Not infrequently a resignation can be in lieu of termination. One of the attendings at our program who was a complete jerk resigned from prior residency but was to avoid termination, as you say, I believe that documents did state what you just mentioned. Bu again if the resident and program can work it out, residents can resign in lieu of being termination and have it state that the resident resigned. Reason why it's important in situations like these to try to work with the program vs wage war. It's very difficult to prove discrimination, and a bunch of other things. The program can typically always hurt you more this stage obviously.

Which is why I said that both the resident and program have to be on the same page. If the person resigning says its for personal reasons or whatever, but the program states it was resign or be fired, well that's a problem.
 
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The first step is to figure out if you will receive credit for your PGY1 year. That is a simple question and one worth fighting for. If you won’t, there is no reason to stay another day.

Are you an AMG?
 
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It's definitely not impossible to get a spot after a resignation or non renewal. Complicating factors are lack of LOR, non-AMG, Non-US citizen etc. Definitely find out if you're able to complete/get credit for your PGY1 year. If you're not getting credit for cases assisted in as you say then I would say find the surgeon whom you assisted to simply say whether you truly were scrubbed and assisting on the case and/or find the documentation from these surgeries. OR Personnel are almost always documented by the circulator down to the what med students were present. It seems that in many of these cases there seems to be a lack of insight on the side of the resident of what might of contributed to the dismissal/non-renewal. Sometimes purposefully left out or more commonly just not being self aware of your own deficiencies. If you don't think you're doing anything wrong then one you don't correct it and two, usually become defensive and further exacerbate the problem. This is not to say there are not cases were it's just a case of malignant program/PD, but there is usually other contributing factors that the OPs are either leaving out or simply unaware of their own issues.
 
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Have you had any contact with the program chair? That's the only lor that trumps the PD lor.
 
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Wow. I’m just grateful that you sent this. I have new info about factors that figure into this situation.

You should just be able to go to ERAS token website and purchase the token when it becomes available in July.
 
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I find it hard to believe that the PD is falsifying procedure counts.

There is literally no benefit to them even if they hate you and it’s 100% provable by OR logs you were there

And now you have an ever expanding list of offenses against them. Gotta say I question the entire thing
Your right. It is provable, but how to get a hold of those barring formal proceedings.. I was prepared to pull out my own logs right then and there and my PD said it doesn’t matter he wouldn’t even look at them.
 
Your right. It is provable, but how to get a hold of those barring formal proceedings.. I was prepared to pull out my own logs right then and there and my PD said it doesn’t matter he wouldn’t even look at them.
You have had consistently described problems and drama in multiple settings. It is time to consider that your behavior is the most likely common thread and that your perception of being wronged by irrational actions of others is not reality
 
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You have had consistently described problems and drama in multiple settings. It is time to consider that your behavior is the most likely common thread and that your perception of being wrong by irrational actions of others is not reality
Including this:
Non renewal Lost All Hope
 
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You have had consistently described problems and drama in multiple settings. It is time to consider that your behavior is the most likely common thread and that your perception of being wronged by irrational actions of others is not reality

Someone whose career is on the line is going to have a level of drama and distress. You have jumped to an assessment without a very clear picture. You have not met this person you don't know their whole situation. Your comments are completely unhelpful. You are kicking a person while they are down for no reason.
 
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Someone whose career is on the line is going to have a level of drama and distress. You have jumped to an assessment without a very clear picture. You have not met this person you don't know their whole situation. Your comments are completely unhelpful. You are kicking a person while they are down for no reason.
Read the past threads. I stand by my advice to consider self reflection
 
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The first step is to figure out if you will receive credit for your PGY1 year. That is a simple question and one worth fighting for. If you won’t, there is no reason to stay another day.

Are you an AMG?
I’m an AMG (American Medical Graduate ???). I was advised that I would not get full credit for PGY1.
 
This is not correct at all. I resigned from my residency because I wanted to go into a different field and had absolutely no problem getting into another field and got a bunch of interviews. So resigning vs. being terminated makes a big big difference. There are always ways to make things look more reasonable or a career change, etc. if resigning vs if you were terminated.

Why did you resign? To avoid termination of because you wanted to do something else?

There's a difference between resigning because you're not interested in a specialty anymore, and resigning to avoid termination. There are licensing boards that now specifically ask if you resigned to avoid termination. If you switch specialties, it's an easy case to make--this wasn't right for either of you and you chose to pursue a different route. If you're going for the same specialty, it becomes a much more difficult case to make. And if the OP was on probation for a period at any point before the resignation, it looks like they resigned to avoid termination even if that's not what actually happened.
 
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There's a difference between resigning because you're not interested in a specialty anymore, and resigning to avoid termination. There are licensing boards that now specifically ask if you resigned to avoid termination. If you switch specialties, it's an easy case to make--this wasn't right for either of you and you chose to pursue a different route. If you're going for the same specialty, it becomes a much more difficult case to make. And if the OP was on probation for a period at any point before the resignation, it looks like they resigned to avoid termination even if that's not what actually happened.

Right. Tha'ts why I delved into whether OP was on probation, remediation, etc and what not. If not, first they can't really can him/her, and second, if not, the OP can make a case for resignation bc they wanted to do something else. I don't believe OP has provided many details.
 
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People resign all the time to look for different programs.

They don't ordinarily quit mid-year. They finish the year and re-enter the match, if for no other reason than they need the money, but also because leaving mid-year, leaves your co-residents to cover your call and shifts.

Someone whose career is on the line is going to have a level of drama and distress. You have jumped to an assessment without a very clear picture. You have not met this person you don't know their whole situation. Your comments are completely unhelpful. You are kicking a person while they are down for no reason.

You are right, there will be a level of drama and distress, but on SND, there's also a level of denial. Stories are shifted and details are left out as people ask for help. We've seen this happen time and again here so people are skeptical with these types of stories.
 
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They don't ordinarily quit mid-year. They finish the year and re-enter the match, if for no other reason than they need the money, but also because leaving mid-year, leaves your co-residents to cover your call and shifts.

Sorry I disagree. I resigned and left prior to the year ending, although perhaps my situation was different bc there were also medical issues and I couldn't stand my program.
 
Yes, your case was very different. As I said they don't ordinarily quit mid-year. Having medical issues AND wanting to leave is a different story.
 
Someone whose career is on the line is going to have a level of drama and distress. You have jumped to an assessment without a very clear picture. You have not met this person you don't know their whole situation. Your comments are completely unhelpful. You are kicking a person while they are down for no reason.

I get where you are coming from, but did you skip over all the mess about declaring this was all due to OP being an atheist? Or all the brushed over personal issues with the PD and others? If you read enough of these threads on SDN it seriously can become pattern recognition - unfortunately, most of the time our suspicions seem to bear out. Thankfully there are enough here trying to provide real, helpful advice here.
 
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