Non-trad Chances

[zacazac33]

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[gyngyn]

If Washington is UW, delete (you are not WWAMI). Otherwise, good list!
Might as well add Drexel and Temple.
If you are not from South IL, delete SIU.

 

[zacazac33]

If Washington is UW, delete (you are not WWAMI). Otherwise, good list!
Might as well add Drexel and Temple.
If you are not from South IL, delete SIU.

Thank you- Surprised to hear that SIU is that selective even within IL, I'm from a Chicago suburb. My undergrad was in rural IL and I wrote about a desire to work in undeserved communities, still no chance?

 

[gyngyn]

Thank you- Surprised to hear that SIU is that selective even within IL, I'm from a Chicago suburb. My undergrad was in rural IL and I wrote about a desire to work in undeserved communities, still no chance?

Take a look at the mission-statement.
If they wanted to increase stats, they could fill with IL residents that have to go OOS.

 

[zacazac33]

Take a look at the mission-statement.
If they wanted to increase stats, they could fill with IL residents that have to go OOS.

Thank you for the thoughtful replies, definitely something to consider.

 

[Faha]

Add a few more MD schools where you would have a chance for an interview:
Oakland Beaumont
Western Michigan
St. Louis
Creighton
Albany

 

[Goro]

This is lethal for any med school.

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!

Here's the deal: You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanism side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.
I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities.

Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

No science research, shadowing or clinical volunteering.

 

[efle]

Add a few more MD schools where you would have a chance for an interview:
Oakland Beaumont
Western Michigan
St. Louis
Creighton
Albany

...would he really have a chance at places like SLU with no research, shadowing, or clinical volunteering and an MCAT one point past their 10th percentile?

 

[ChrisMack390]

I hate to say it but Goro is 100% correct, as he often is. No clinical volunteering has knocked out 3.7/37's...

Unless you have an absolutely absurd experience you neglected to mention, I can't see you getting in to even DO schools. DO schools more or less universally require a letter from a doctor you have shadowed.

 

[gyngyn]

This is lethal for any med school.
No science research, shadowing or clinical volunteering.

Nice catch.

 

[northernlights15]

He has two years as an ER scribe so that's some clinical experience.

 

[NonTrad16]

This is lethal for any med school.

No science research, shadowing or clinical volunteering.

Wouldn't the ER scribe count as a clinical experience, tutoring/teaching/volunteering in Asia count as volunteer work, and educational research count as research? If spun, could it work? I guess the 'volunteering' in asia may have been employment, and thus not volunteering? No shadowing seems like an issue, especially for DO schools, but I wonder if it's 'lethal' if phrased well.

taught/volunteered in Asia for 2 years, started a post-bacc and took 44 credits of BCPM's in 2 years while working as an ER Scribe, Tutoring, Market research and got my EMT-B. No science research, shadowing or clinical volunteering.

-Non-clinical volunteering: Tutoring, ESL
-Employment history: ESL teacher in Asia for 2 years, Pharmaceutical market research, ER Scribe, Summer camp
-Other: Art exhibitions, educational research publications. Teaching certificate.

 

[gyngyn]

Wouldn't the ER scribe count as a clinical experience, tutoring/teaching/volunteering in Asia count as volunteer work, and educational research count as research? If spun, could it work? I guess the 'volunteering' in asia may have been employment, and thus not volunteering? No shadowing seems like an issue, especially for DO schools, but I wonder if it's 'lethal'.

Around 80% of successful candidates have shadowing experience. It may not be a deal breaker for all evaluators, but the odds are that it will be for some.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I feel like it is one thing to have one activity only loosely defined in your app....with a bunch of them I don't know...

Also, the people I know who are teaching English in Asia right now are doing the farthest thing from volunteer work (by their own admission).

 

[NonTrad16]

Around 80% of successful candidates have shadowing experience. It may not be a deal breaker for all evaluators, but the odds are that it will be for some.

Depending on the environment, I would think scribing could be equally useful (depending on who you work with, etc). I think the lines blur; scribing could be more beneficial than 50 hours in an OR with a physician who doesn't answers questions. That said, it doesn't help the patchwork app.

(Spoken from a fellow non-trad who has struggled to get the appropriate items fulfilled.)

 

[gyngyn]

Depending on the environment, I would think scribing could be equally useful (depending on who you work with, etc). I think the lines blur; scribing could be more beneficial than 50 hours in an OR with a physician who doesn't answers questions. That said, it doesn't help the patchwork app.

(Spoken from a fellow non-trad who has struggled to get the appropriate items fulfilled.)

ER scribing has so little to do with a doctor's daily life that it belongs in an entirely separate category! This is not to say it isn't useful, it just doesn't fulfill the same purpose.

 

[NonTrad16]

ER scribing has so little to do with a doctor's daily life that it belongs in an entirely separate category! This is not to say it isn't useful, it just doesn't fulfill the same purpose.

Haha, ok, well I admit I haven't actually scribed. Or seen a scribe. I suppose I may have an idealistic view of what they do!

 

[Goro]

I don't think that teaching English in asia counts as helping those less fortunate than yourself. We want to see altruism and humanism. Building safe water supplies counts for a lot more in my book, or being a Big Brother/Sister, or working at Habitat for Humanity. The research powerhouses will reject you immediately for a lack of research experience, alas.

 

[efle]

I don't think that teaching English in asia counts as helping those less fortunate than yourself. We want to see altruism and humanism. Building safe water supplies counts for a lot more in my book, or being a Big Brother/Sister, or working at Habitat for Humanity. The research powerhouses will reject you immediately for a lack of research experience, alas.

How is it that research became so closely tied to elite med school? Seems like there could be famous schools that are disinterested in pumping out academics, yet that seems to be the goal of everyone in the top 10 at least

 

[Goro]

I suppose they like the idea of clinician-research, where every practicing doctor is still a scientist at heart. This medical philosophy goes back > 100 years to the Flexner report on American Medicine. keep in mind that many of the top schools (Yale, for one) require medical students to do a research project.

I believe a number of residencies also require this, but I'll rely on my resident colleagues to set me straight on that one.

Just by browsing through MSAR, > 90% of all matriculants have done research prior to med school. Non-trads are probably the other 10%.

How is it that research became so closely tied to elite med school? Seems like there could be famous schools that are disinterested in pumping out academics, yet that seems to be the goal of everyone in the top 10 at least

 

[efle]

I suppose they like the idea of clinician-research, where every practicing doctor is still a scientist at heart. This medical philosophy goes back > 100 years to the Flexner report on American Medicine. keep in mind that many of the top schools (Yale, for one) require medical students to do a research project.

I believe a number of residencies also require this, but I'll rely on my resident colleagues to set me straight on that one.

Just by browsing through MSAR, > 90% of all matriculants have done research prior to med school. Non-trads are probably the other 10%.

Do they really expect the majority of doctors, especially primary caregivers, to spend significant amounts of time doing research though? I guess it makes sense to me that many or even most schools would love students that are scientists at heart.

It's just odd to me that every school requires their students to be so. What is so wrong with someone who just wants to cut people up all day, and no interest in designing and running studies? I feel like if I didn't enjoy research, I'd still have to do it and lie my ass off about it, just to abandon it when I finally could down the road

 

[Goro]

Of their grads, they hope so. But even if they don't become PIs or punch out JAMA papers every other month, they're expected to think like scientists, be able to observe and theorize, and always formulate hypotheses. I think @mimelim can best answer this given his training.

Do they really expect the majority of doctors, especially primary caregivers, to spend significant amounts of time doing research though? I guess it makes sense to me that many or even most schools would love students that are scientists at heart.

It's just odd to me that every school requires their students to be so. What is so wrong with someone who just wants to cut people up all day, and no interest in designing and running studies? I feel like if I didn't enjoy research, I'd still have to do it and lie my ass off about it, just to abandon it when I finally could down the road

 

[NonTrad16]

Personally I wish/hope substantial research is valued at the non-top schools. My uGPA won't get much love from them, who knows about the MCAT (I'll check back after July 20th when I get a score), but my strength is research... C'est la vie!

 

[efle]

Personally I wish/hope substantial research is valued at the non-top schools. My uGPA won't get much love from them, who knows about the MCAT (I'll check back after July 20th when I get a score), but my strength is research... C'est la vie!

The thing about research is, almost anyone can do it. B and C students that can't break into 30's MCATs can still log mind boggling hours in the lab. It's a requirement schools can toss into the pile of hoops to jump, but it's too easy of one to get through, leaving grades and MCAT as the real weedout metrics. At least, that's my theory why research is ranked as moderately important by private med schools, and low importance by public med schools, compared to highest importance ratings for GPA/MCAT.

Of course, really super awesome stellar research will still get you in to even the top schools with otherwise noncompetitive numbers. Speaking of mimelim, that's how he overcame a 3.4 GPA!

 

[zacazac33]

This is lethal for any med school.

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!

Here's the deal: You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanism side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.
I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities.

Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

No science research, shadowing or clinical volunteering.

Thank you for the honesty- this is exactly what I was hoping for when I posted this. I think a lot of the non-trad resources had me convinced that AdComs would take my paid clinical work, non-clinical volunteering and life experiences as evidence of my altruism/humanism and ability to succeed in med school in lieu of the more common shadowing/clinical volunteering experiences. I'm hoping my essays will make the relevance and significance of these experiences clearer than this post. My main concern now is that the AdCom will scan, see the lack of clinical volunteering, and make a lot of the same assumptions being made in this thread.

Just to offer a little clarification the non-clinical tutoring has been going on for ~8 years and includes everything from adult ESL/GED to international preK, I have 3 glowing (MD and DO) letters of recommendation from my 2000+ hours of Scribe experience and multiple educational studies-based research publications.

It seems like a lot of people agree with the *thought* that "[w]e're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen" but when an applicant doesn't have the biology major, shadowing, science research, clinical volunteer etc. boxes checked off they predict a fairly grim outcome.

Have I completely deluded myself into thinking that these non-traditional experiences will be looked at thoughtfully and allowed to fulfill the same metrics as the more common application experiences?

 

[Goro]

You simply need to show us that you know what you're getting into. patients aren't always nice people. You going to have to deal with gross, obese, pus-dripping, ungrateful, drug-seeking, self-defeating behaviors. And they go and die on you too, despite your best efforts!


It seems like a lot of people agree with the *thought* that "[w]e're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen" but when an applicant doesn't have the biology major, shadowing, science research, clinical volunteer etc. boxes checked off they predict a fairly grim outcome.

It's a common mind-set. Hell, there are plenty of people that think a high MCAT will make up for a low GPA; it doesn't.
Have I completely deluded myself into thinking that these non-traditional experiences will be looked at thoughtfully and allowed to fulfill the same metrics as the more common application experiences?

 

[zacazac33]

I agree, and thank you again for the replies. Is the common thought that paid clinical experience, specifically as an ER Scribe, does not expose applicants to these types of patients?