Non-Traditional Applicant Questions

[jonzhu]

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Hi everybody,

I am a non-traditional applicant planning on applying this cycle. I graduated undergrad in 2020 and a lot of my pre-requisites were taken in the 2016-2018 time period. Would any schools consider this to be "too old" and expired? I understand it may be different for each school and I may have to research it myself when creating a school list, but I am wondering if anyone has already created a list and shared it.

My second question is that as a non-traditional applicant, I have not been in contact with my professors from school for a long time. Do I need letters of recommendation from my professors? I can get letters of recommendation from previous bosses at work and physicians I've worked with for sure.

Thank you for the help!

 

[stonecutter4991]

Hi Jonzhu - I applied last cycle with some 10+ year old prereqs and didn't have any issues except for one school (CHSU) - I think most schools don't mind. It probably did help that the harder prereqs, like Ochem 2, were more recent. I think MSAR has this information for each school as well (worth paying for, in my opinion), and you can always call the school itself if it is unclear.

For letters - most schools say that non-trads can use non-academic letters. A warm, enthusiastic letter from an employer >>>>>> a generic letter from a professor who doesn't remember you. If you do ave any old profs that you were close with, reach out and see if they remember you. If not, don't worry about it too much. As above, use MSAR to identify schools that have a hard requirement for academic letters.

 

[jonzhu]

Hi Jonzhu - I applied last cycle with some 10+ year old prereqs and didn't have any issues except for one school (CHSU) - I think most schools don't mind. It probably did help that the harder prereqs, like Ochem 2, were more recent. I think MSAR has this information for each school as well (worth paying for, in my opinion), and you can always call the school itself if it is unclear.

For letters - most schools say that non-trads can use non-academic letters. A warm, enthusiastic letter from an employer >>>>>> a generic letter from a professor who doesn't remember you. If you do ave any old profs that you were close with, reach out and see if they remember you. If not, don't worry about it too much. As above, use MSAR to identify schools that have a hard requirement for academic letters.

Super helpful, thank you so much!

 

[Rachapkis]

Med schools generally don't have hard and fast rules regarding the expiration of pre-reqs. Given that your pre-reqs are less than 10 years old, I don't think you will have any issues--particularly if you demonstrate your competency through a high MCAT sscore.

 

[polymerization]

I have not been in contact with my professors from school for a long time. Do I need letters of recommendation from my professors? I can get letters of recommendation from previous bosses at work and physicians I've worked with for sure.

If you plan on applying this cycle, you can't afford to keep waiting. Many schools have a preference for one letter from a science professor who taught you directly, one letter from a non-science professor, and then one additional letter of your choice. Some schools will expect a letter from a PI if you've been involved in research. I applied with 4 letters (biochemistry professor, social psychology professor, physiology professor, and neuroscience professor). I asked well over 12 people, and actually received ~8 letters. (...and that's a good conversion rate in my opinion)

Expect having to ask many more people than the 3 writers you "need." People will say no outright; others will agree and ghost you; others still will agree and then require you to be after them begging and pleading via e-mail on a weekly basis until they write it. You may even have people who tell you to write it. In general: treat a "yes" as a "maybe." You don't actually have a letter until it's sitting in your dossier. I recommend using a service like Interfolio to store and quality-check your letters for signatures and letterheads and whatnot.

Eventually you will get to a point where you have to do some critical thinking even after you get your letters. Not every person you ask will know you well. Depending on how excited they seemed to support you, you will have inklings around who could actually write you a strong letter.

Further, you have to ask yourself how removed some of your writers could be from academia. There are some physicians who are also clinical professors and understand what a recommendation for medical school admissions looks like, but there are a lot more community physicians that will write a letter that reads like a work excuse for a patient. Worse, you could occasionally get someone who believes a recommendation letter is a place for them to air out any grievances they have about you or your work, which is functionally a kiss of death. You have to be careful... this is why I prefer professors to professionals.

I would also recommend seeing if your school offers a committee letter through the pre-health office at your old stomping grounds. For someone like you that does not have any letters, it could be a more "on-rails" experience, but a couple years out of school, I don't know if they will be willing to work with you. Worth a shot.

All of this to say, it's actually not an easy-breezy passerby thing to get letters. You want to ask people who recognize your face, who have spoken to you and know what you want to do, who have been present to see you participate fully in class or lab. I'm worried for you if you are concerned about who will write your letters in mid-February given that the theoretical list of people who could meet this list of requirements is generally slim especially for a non-trad.

Myself, I had to go back to school and take some additional upper-division coursework before applying. There was no other way for me to get letters I could trust. Several of my letter writers became writers because they asked me for recommendations (to add to their applications for tenure) first and were willing to return the favor. That was a very convenient aspect I didn't expect going in.

 

[jonzhu]

If you plan on applying this cycle, you can't afford to keep waiting. Many schools have a preference for one letter from a science professor who taught you directly, one letter from a non-science professor, and then one additional letter of your choice. Some schools will expect a letter from a PI if you've been involved in research. I applied with 4 letters (biochemistry professor, social psychology professor, physiology professor, and neuroscience professor). I asked well over 12 people, and actually received ~8 letters. (...and that's a good conversion rate in my opinion)

Expect having to ask many more people than the 3 writers you "need." People will say no outright; others will agree and ghost you; others still will agree and then require you to be after them begging and pleading via e-mail on a weekly basis until they write it. You may even have people who tell you to write it. In general: treat a "yes" as a "maybe." You don't actually have a letter until it's sitting in your dossier. I recommend using a service like Interfolio to store and quality-check your letters for signatures and letterheads and whatnot.

Eventually you will get to a point where you have to do some critical thinking even after you get your letters. Not every person you ask will know you well. Depending on how excited they seemed to support you, you will have inklings around who could actually write you a strong letter.

Further, you have to ask yourself how removed some of your writers could be from academia. There are some physicians who are also clinical professors and understand what a recommendation for medical school admissions looks like, but there are a lot more community physicians that will write a letter that reads like a work excuse for a patient. Worse, you could occasionally get someone who believes a recommendation letter is a place for them to air out any grievances they have about you or your work, which is functionally a kiss of death. You have to be careful... this is why I prefer professors to professionals.

I would also recommend seeing if your school offers a committee letter through the pre-health office at your old stomping grounds. For someone like you that does not have any letters, it could be a more "on-rails" experience, but a couple years out of school, I don't know if they will be willing to work with you. Worth a shot.

All of this to say, it's actually not an easy-breezy passerby thing to get letters. You want to ask people who recognize your face, who have spoken to you and know what you want to do, who have been present to see you participate fully in class or lab. I'm worried for you if you are concerned about who will write your letters in mid-February given that the theoretical list of people who could meet this list of requirements is generally slim especially for a non-trad.

Myself, I had to go back to school and take some additional upper-division coursework before applying. There was no other way for me to get letters I could trust. Several of my letter writers became writers because they asked me for recommendations (to add to their applications for tenure) first and were willing to return the favor. That was a very convenient aspect I didn't expect going in.

I have several people I have worked with in a professional setting who are willing to write me a very positive letter and are very transparent about the contents of the letter. Same with physicians. I agree with you for the professors, I am going to write an email to several professors soon detailing my situation, a CV, how they know me, accomplishments in class, motivations for medicine, etc. As Stonecutter said, a great letter from an employer/manager can be in place of the professor letter, but it will be good to have both in hand. Thanks for the advice.

 

[MDEnvy]

Hi, @jonzhu -- fellow class of 2020 college graduate here who applied for the first time this cycle. I have an MD A from the only MD that interviewed me and 2 DO IIs --> 1 DO A (the other pending). I, too completed my prereqs between 2016-2019, so going on 7-10 years.

There ARE schools that do look at when the prerequisites were completed--this can be seen in MSAR under Admissions --> Application Information --> search for "Oldest date prerequisite coursework can be completed". That will tell you whether schools have a hard expiry on prerequisites, like UNC, or if they don't like Albany.

I think one of the reasons I didn't get an interview from my state school this cycle is because they recommended prereq completion within the last 6 or so years, and times outside of that would weaken the application.

I tried to mitigate the distance between graduation and application by taking some upper level bio classes online as I was working full-time in clinical research. Still doing this. Just to try and ease an admissions committee's concerns about coursework. My MCAT was also recent (not super strong at a 509) but still showed recent engagement with science.

As for LORs, I kept in close contact with my old undergrad's Pre-Med committee and gave them what they needed for a letter. Same for some profs I was close with, and also my supervisors from jobs post-undergrad who were willing to write me one.

I hope this helps. Sorry if super long. Lmk if you have questions

EDIT: Don’t forget to also send this guide from the AAMC to your letter writers. This would hopefully prevent an issue like Polymerization is describing above with people writing letters like excuse notes: https://students-residents.aamc.org/media/5306/download?attachment

 

[jonzhu]

Hi, @jonzhu -- fellow class of 2020 college graduate here who applied for the first time this cycle. I have an MD A from the only MD that interviewed me and 2 DO IIs --> 1 DO A (the other pending). I, too completed my prereqs between 2016-2019, so going on 7-10 years.

There ARE schools that do look at when the prerequisites were completed--this can be seen in MSAR under Admissions --> Application Information --> search for "Oldest date prerequisite coursework can be completed". That will tell you whether schools have a hard expiry on prerequisites, like UNC, or if they don't like Albany.

I think one of the reasons I didn't get an interview from my state school this cycle is because they recommended prereq completion within the last 6 or so years, and times outside of that would weaken the application.

I tried to mitigate the distance between graduation and application by taking some upper level bio classes online as I was working full-time in clinical research. Still doing this. Just to try and ease an admissions committee's concerns about coursework. My MCAT was also recent (not super strong at a 509) but still showed recent engagement with science.

As for LORs, I kept in close contact with my old undergrad's Pre-Med committee and gave them what they needed for a letter. Same for some profs I was close with, and also my supervisors from jobs post-undergrad who were willing to write me one.

I hope this helps. Sorry if super long. Lmk if you have questions

EDIT: Don’t forget to also send this guide from the AAMC to your letter writers. This would hopefully prevent an issue like Polymerization is describing above with people writing letters like excuse notes: https://students-residents.aamc.org/media/5306/download?attachment

Understood. I will look into the oldest date pre-requisite works for schools. I already sent my rec letter writers the guideline document. I have the CTO and CSO of my cancer research company who agreed to write me letters and 2 physicians I shadowed/worked with. I have been emailing old professors and hoping I can get at least one or two. Thank you for the help!