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the major for profit psych chains don't require hep b. For some reason, hospitals have moved from annual ppd in my area to annual "screening " questions
non vaccinated job applicants
Started by nexus73
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Employers can ask for a copy of their vaccine card. Falsifying vaccine records is a federal felony. Breaking the law is a good reason to terminate an employee as is lying to your employer or contracting agency. Heck, I have to provide my BLS card every two years to maintain privileges at my hospital. It's not that hard.
Of course these questions would be raised, but at least with a person who can't get vaccinated for medical reasons, which by the way does not apply to 99.999999999% of the population, we can say this is a one-off person and appropriately evaluate risk based on that. But I would not set a precedent that you can hire any doc who chooses not to get vaccinated for whatever anti-science reason.
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I'm absolutely shocked by this thread. No medical professional with a background in public health (and medicine!) should reasonably protest a vaccine, especially one that is effective and with so few adverse effects. Anyone who protests should be removed from this forum. What unheard of effect are you expecting from an mRNA vaccine?
Not really.
1.
Vermont, the most vaccinated state in the nation, has been weathering a spike in COVID cases. But why? - The Boston Globe
The unexpected turn has triggered a sharp debate — at least by Vermont’s polite standards — over how forcefully to respond.www.bostonglobe.com
So this argues that VT has seen an increase in transmission despite vaccination. It even states "Because so many Vermonters stepped forward early to get their shots, many may have waning immunity now, making them more susceptible to breakthrough infections."
That hypothesis directly contradicts your point by suggesting that it's the waning effectiveness of the vaccine that's causing the spike.
And then there's this "Add the sheer public weariness with masks and social distancing after 20 months of COVID, doctors say, and Vermont had a combustible mix as it headed into fall"
Where does it say that vaccines don't prevent transmission?
Dude, this is from December 2020. That's a lifetime in the context of Covid research and findings. And even then it says "This suggests that systemically vaccinated patients, while asymptomatic, may still be become infected and transmit live virus from the upper airway."
3.
COVID-19 Vaccines May Not Prevent Nasal SARS-CoV-2 Infection and Asymptomatic Transmission - PubMed
Current COVID-19 vaccine candidates are administered by injection and designed to produce an IgG response, preventing viremia and the COVID-19 syndrome. However, systemic respiratory vaccines generally provide limited protection against viral replication and shedding within the airway, as this...pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I need to read the whole study to properly understand this one since it doesn't say when these people were vaccinated which we know is important for the same reasons as in the VT article.
I don't see any rights being violated here. You don't have the right to work wherever you want. There are certain standards and qualifications and this vaccine is part of it for the hospital.
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I mean, that's hardly surprising. It's not like they care about patient care in other ways.
I think he's asking how would the colleagues know, not employers.
@24blue8 your direct colleagues are usually on the hiring committee and as @wolfvgang22 said, at places that require the vaccine, your card is required just as it would be for Hep B titers, MMR, and tDap.
They're following new CDC guidelines.
I’ve never been vaccinated with the pneumovax vaccine despite pneumonia being deadly to my patients. Does this make me “anti-vaxx?”
Depends on your age, health status, and whether you smoke, doesn't it? Antivaxx is just another word for stupid in my book.
I'm a little shocked, but then I remember one of the young ladies who graduated in the middle rank of my med school class confide in me she didn't believe in viruses during a break in pathology class. She did graduate and is in practice. Hopefully she changed her mind with education.
I don't think people who have ignorance should be banned from discussion, as long as they are sincere and aren't pushing an agenda. However, Anti-Covid vaccine folks are almost entirely pushing a political agenda in my view in 2021 and trying to pretend to have real scientific concerns.
Depends, do you meet criteria for it and were you required to get it? If so and you came back with some anti-science hogwash then yes.
What, like she thought it was all fake? Did she think the people with flu or even colds were making it up?
uh aren’t you a pathologist bud? When’s the last time you actually saw a patient
I do love the way youre peeking over from the pathology forum and thumbs downing every other comment though lol
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When I asked her that question she said she didn't know but that viruses didn't make any sense to her and no one has ever seen a virus in a microscope. She said she just gave the answers the prof wanted to hear to pass. I know, I know.
I decided at that point to avoid interaction with her. She was quite popular however with many of the other med students, and more so later during exam skills practice because she volunteered for breast exams in place of the provided dummy. She is an OB/Gyn now.
That's terrifying.
Thank you for helping clarify.
Yes, I had to submit my cards at my new hospital during the on-boarding process. I will also whip it out if anyone needs it and it's nothing I would try to be vague about. However, I never thought about the fact that my new colleagues saw all of my health information? I assumed that went to like employee health and maybe the docs got just my CV? Maybe I'm assuming the vaccination cards are with all our health records but maybe they've actually sorted it differently?
I'm vaccinated, and I work/live in a very pro-vaccination/mask area, and my co-workers seem like (add whatever adjective you want) people so I would certainly think we're all vaccinated.
...But I seriously wouldn't know 100%!
I remember I almost fell out of my chair a few years back-- all the RNs at the VA talked w/pure confidence that everyone had voted for one guy for an election when all the docs on the unit had not and one of them actually dropped his coffee cup listening to her electoral jubilee.
So, I've been a little bit more reserved in making assumptions about these things unless I see it with my own eyes or hear it straight from the horses mouth.
It’s worse than stupid, stupid can potentially be addressed; anti-vaxx is willfully ignorant with a sprinkling of righteous individualism and disdain for the sheeple. You can’t reason with that. That’s what makes it dangerous.
Hold on just a second... you're kidding here, right?
I shudder to think what she tells her patients, OB already has a lot of people doing on evidence based things (speaking as an obgyn)
Though I don’t think she’s as much an outlier as more rational people like to believed , I had a classmate who told a patient with schizophrenia to “just get over it, mind over matter, you know”. He’s an orthopedic surgeon now
That's kind of a hilarious thing to say in this instance since, you know, the patients mind is already constructing a reality around them that doesn't correspond to matter.
People who are anti-vaccine are a wide swath. The sub categories could be anti-mandates, or people who value liberty, or anti science, or conspiracists, etc; but they hold an equal disdain for people who refer to them so negatively as many are openly spewing their hate here.
The hate and harsh rhetoric here is still hate and harsh rhetoric even if favored by main stream media and the majority.
Some people get vaccinated, but are anti-mandate and are ticked off with the infusion of politics. They see that the mandates and fear surrounding covid has done more damage then anything the virus could do. They lament their neighbors kids commiting suicide, or their kids failing at school due to online learning, they lament people losing their jobs from shut downs, or even now from mandates, they lament rising inflation from policies that are tied to covid, they lament losses of liberty and restriction of travel, they loathe the double standard of politicians openly getting caught with 'do as we say not as we do', they lament the broad acceptance of fellow citizens so willing to give up their freedoms. They recognize that this virus doesn't pass the common man test - where if most people aren't fearing the virus then why get vaccinated? This push for national mandates was doomed before it began. Had the virus been some sort of hemorrhagic virus, there wouldn't be a need for mandates, every one, the common man test, would have been passed and every one would be signing up to get vaccinated from day one.
Let's look at another example, Hillary called half the country deplorables. That didn't go well. Same phenomena is going on now where close to half the country is harshly criticizing the other half. We need not lambast and denigrate people as stupid but at least understand the why. Why are the vaccinating, why are they not? After what, 2 years now? Half the country still isn't vaccinated? Why does any one think that is going to change?
And further recognize that despite the favorable medical evidence for vaccination, the political influences will always trump every other category. Politics trump religion, military, economics, etc, etc and whether we like it or not this is political and not medical. The sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can proceed forward.
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Thank you for the voice of reason. The amount of splitting in society makes me worry that BPD will soon no longer be considered pathologic as it is basically culturally acceptable to not be able to see shades of grey.
I'm more worried that you seem to think the primary way to diagnose borderline personality disorder is "inability to see shades of grey".
Sorry I wasn't clear. Your colleagues should NOT know your personal health information. However, if your colleagues are on a search committee and you don't meet the qualifications of the job (i.e. be vaccinated), then they may be told this because this may determine whether or not you get hired.
I don't know how long ago this was, but in the olden days they didn't have standardized patients and med students practiced on each other. Would bet @wolfvgang22 's school was a holdover where the professors probably thought "did it in my day" so they didn't see anything wrong with it, crazy as it sounds.
No dude, half the country is not harshly criticizing the other half. The whole country is harshly criticizing each other. To neglect that suggests misuse and/or ignorance of actual facts. Plenty from people on both sides of the aisle are fully vaccinated, including the same politicians who discourage people from getting it. Anti-vaxxers are not victims. Far from it. Call me harsh, but anyone who makes the Covid vaccine a question of politics rather than a question of health doesn't practice evidence-based medicine and frankly I'd question if they belong in medicine, especially if those same people demonstrate their hypocrisy by being in favor of TB restrictions, vaccines for Hep B and tDap, and/or involuntary commitment.
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No that I get, but I've never heard of it being done for breast exams. Heck in residency they used me for lumbar puncture landmarks because back then my BMI was 19. But I'm a guy so pulling up my shirt in the back was not really a big deal.
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Supposedly back in the day, it was done for all exams, including pelvic exams according to one of my elderly attendings in residency. Don't know if it's true but definitely cringey if so.
You know what, being told to wear a mask and get a vaccine if you want to work at a place with lots of people is not infringing of liberties anymore than being fired for saying racist stuff is an infringement of free speech. You are more than welcome to go do your own thing and work for the many businesses that don’t have mandates or go into PP. there is so much toxic individualism In this country it would be fodder for late night talk shows if it wasn’t so horrifying.
Sometimes it is ok to do something for other people even if it’s a sacrifice for you, especially if it’s during a global pandemic.
I am in 2 hospitals in my practice; both are overflowing with covid patients, I’ll give you one guess how many are vaccinated, and I bet your guess would be wrong, because the answer is a big fat 0. That’s right every single patient currently admitted here is unvaccinated; somebody brought up Vermont earlier and their increased rate of hospitalization despite high vaccine rates, and if you do slightly more than skim you’ll see that the majority of them are unvaccinated.
So even if the unvaccinated are not a risk for more COVID infections to the vaccinated (which is false) they are now directly a threat to the vaccinated and unvaccinated who need surgery, who need beds for strokes and heart attacks etc.
And before you say I’m a liberal or a leftist, or whatever, I’m not. Was pretty staunchly conservative before 2016, and don’t like a lot of the wokeism, and I don’t believe anyone is deplorable but some of the behavior absolutely is.
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I'm not posting my personal views.
I'm posting an observation of what I see taking place in the country and infused with opinions of patients who are polar in their covid status. I've even had some request I write their covid vaccine exemption letters. I took their request seriously, discussed with them what/why, and had to inform them I couldn't for reasons XYZ. But also still tried to maintain rapport. I've got others who very rarely leave the home if at all, or are angry with what they see and internalize from their medical jobs on the front lines of covid deaths. I get and understand these varied views and experiences. I also understand the vitriol and strong opinions expressed on SDN.
My post should not be construed as my view but what's playing out across the country. Has any one traveled to other states or parts of states that are different politically? There are places that if you are walking around with a mask, people will give you looks and stare at you funny. This is the reality in the country.
This, I will say is my opinion: criticizing and denigrating people for being pro vaccine, pseudo vax, non vax, whatever vax is not productive. It ends discussions, it ends negotiations even before they begin. Two years in, a large chunk of the country still has opted not to get vaccinated, I'm not optimistic of that changing. I intend to maintain the best rapport with my patients I can regardless of their views of vaccination, because some day this too shall pass and professional integrity means more in the years to come then the immediate instant gratification of proving to people why they (are wrong?) shouldn't be pro vax, anti vax, pseudo vax, big foot vax, etc.
I'm posting an observation of what I see taking place in the country and infused with opinions of patients who are polar in their covid status. I've even had some request I write their covid vaccine exemption letters. I took their request seriously, discussed with them what/why, and had to inform them I couldn't for reasons XYZ. But also still tried to maintain rapport. I've got others who very rarely leave the home if at all, or are angry with what they see and internalize from their medical jobs on the front lines of covid deaths. I get and understand these varied views and experiences. I also understand the vitriol and strong opinions expressed on SDN.
My post should not be construed as my view but what's playing out across the country. Has any one traveled to other states or parts of states that are different politically? There are places that if you are walking around with a mask, people will give you looks and stare at you funny. This is the reality in the country.
This, I will say is my opinion: criticizing and denigrating people for being pro vaccine, pseudo vax, non vax, whatever vax is not productive. It ends discussions, it ends negotiations even before they begin. Two years in, a large chunk of the country still has opted not to get vaccinated, I'm not optimistic of that changing. I intend to maintain the best rapport with my patients I can regardless of their views of vaccination, because some day this too shall pass and professional integrity means more in the years to come then the immediate instant gratification of proving to people why they (are wrong?) shouldn't be pro vax, anti vax, pseudo vax, big foot vax, etc.
I work in this part of the county and wear a mask and get looks. And I definitely don’t disagree with you about maintaining rapport, but what I said is also not an opinion but an observation. The unvaccinated are the primary driver of overwhelming hospital systems, and it is our responsibility as physicians to not sugar coat this. I’ve had plenty of discussions with patients about vaccines and many have gone on to get one after having long discussions with me about it, specifically pointing out the risks of these vaccines. I do not think a certain amount of personal responsibility of people who choose not get vaccinated or wearing masks about certain consequences. Like not being allowed to be in a store where you must wear a mask, or being allowed to attend an event before showing proof of vaccinations.
I do also think that many people who are anti-vaccines or whatever get their info fro. Questionable sources (like certain politicians or talk show hosts). I had a patient tell me ivermectin is safer because it’s been around for a hundred years (actual quote). I don’t fault her, I fault the person that started that information thread. And people like that (including Public figures) should 100% be held accountable
I do also think that many people who are anti-vaccines or whatever get their info fro. Questionable sources (like certain politicians or talk show hosts). I had a patient tell me ivermectin is safer because it’s been around for a hundred years (actual quote). I don’t fault her, I fault the person that started that information thread. And people like that (including Public figures) should 100% be held accountable
Ok, but you're changing the point of this thread which isn't about any of that stuff. This thread is about hiring a physician who refuses to get vaccinated when her own potential colleagues don't want to work with her. You injected crap about liberty and HRC and politics which should have nothing to do with a physician following evidence-based recommendations to be vaccinated if they want to treat patients.
If you want to talk about the politics of it all, I'm happy to go 10 rounds in DM or on another forum. But that isn't the point of this thread.
This is a problem. Where does it end? Are we going to ban the naturopathic profession? Oprah has had people who spout odd things on her shows, is she to be held accountable too? Should we hold all physicians accountable not forcing and emphasizing flu vaccines for all? Alcohol causes negatives should we again hold people accountable for not being a prohibition country? Same for cannabis... I believe studies are showing increased SI behaviors in young women, so are we to blame every medical professional and hold them accountable for propping up cannabis as medicine - when it is not?
This type of absolute rhetoric "100%" is a problem.
I already responded to that in the first few posts. The thread was starting to derail, I chimed in on the emerging sub topics.
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How are they going to know if the person is vaccinated or not? How do they know all of their colleagues are vaccinated? It either seems like their requests are wishes and not something they actually control or there are some very serious ethical violations occurring here...
To play devil's advocate for some posts.:
Is there a reason the patient could not ask to be treated by only vaccinated individuals or be on a vaccinated only unit? Sounds like a solid selling point for hospitals and potentially a way to fire those who aren't vaccinated when their "non-vaxxed" units aren't carrying an adequate patient load.
Vaccine mandates have been in place for a while in many places, but there are still plenty of unvaccinated people working because the deadline to get vaccinated hasn't occurred yet.
I don't think anyone is flat out protesting a vaccine, but it is 100% reasonable to question a new vaccine with no long-term data available. I've met very educated and reasonable people say they will not take certain medications until they've been out 5 or even 10 years d/t lack of long-term outcomes. Phase 3 trials of vaccines didn't even start until July of 2020 and weren't available to the public until the end of the year, so we barely have 1 year of solid data to go on. I could easily see a skeptic (of anything new) preferring to take the known risk vs. the unknown.
This brings up an interesting problem with current standards and mandates. There's plenty of evidence coming forth suggesting that the effectiveness of the any COVID vaccines significantly decrease with time. So why is the initial series (or shot) mandated but no one is talking about mandating boosters? Especially when there are many people suggesting this may become an annual vaccine like the flu. We're at the point where a significant number of people may be losing immunity during a time of year when infectious rates tend to rise plus the emergence of a new strain. It seems odd to me that many places with mandates on the vaccines (including healthcare facilities) are not placing any mandates on boosters when there's evidence of increase in .
Question to OP (and anyone): would the doctors concerned about working with an unvaccinated colleague also be concerned about working with colleagues whose last vaccine was over a year ago?
Agree with this. An employee's health records are no one else's business at work, including your direct boss (unless they're an owner or something). I would hope that even if a colleague is on the hiring committee that credentialing or whoever is handling the health requirements would give a generic "they do not meet medical qualifications" and communicate directly with the job candidate about what qualifications they are missing without revealing that to a sub-committee or general employees.
I want to post a list of what FDR and congress mandated 1942-1945. But then again, I think some people would just say, "Well, that's before the illuminati (or some other such nonsense) took over "da gubmint." Or maybe they would say such things, as "yea but that was real, real, son! COVID's minor leagues or fake compared to WWII."
At worst, wearing a mask is a minor inconvenience that you can do to help your fellow human. It is essentially "da gobmint" telling you to cover your big dumb dong when you go into a fast food place. I just don't understand the outrage? ALL HUMANS ARE ACTING AS SHEEP when they exist on the grid. We live for and with each other. This is how large scale civilizations, nations and towns operate. This is not new!
The vaccine mandates are an extension of everything I just mentioned. We already do this stuff....all the time. For decades and decades now! It is part of living in a communal and civilized society/nation. I mean, come on! How many of these middle age "freedom riders" have the polio vaccine scar on their arm? I know my pops does. People really need to get over their "freedoms outrage" stuff and just face the reality that they already accepted the underlying premise.... long, long ago.
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This has been asked and answered.
There are many reasons. The most obvious being that in order to implement that kind of thing, then every patient would have to know the vaccination status of their treating doc and I don't see hospitals doing that. I also don't know where you work, but where I work, you get the attending/team you get. If a team has 10 patients (and we're always full), then a patient requesting only a vaccinated attending would mean someone else on the other team then needs to be changed to the un-vaccinated attending which would lead to ethical issues, not to mention the hassle and extra work it causes everyone. And if the other two teams then have to take on anyone not wanting to be treated by an un-vaccinated attending, the two other teams' census could swell and that by itself would be reason enough the other attendings don't want to work with this individual.
No, just sounds like more work for everyone else. In terms of current employees, I might agree. But why go through the trouble of hiring someone new just so you can put this policy in place with the goal of firing them if they can't carry an adequate patient load.
That also isn't true. The deadline has occurred in many places and people have been terminated or placed on leave.
Yes, they are. There are many people flat-out protesting a vaccine.
When does it stop being new? Can you give a deadline? Because we also don't have long-term data on Covid, but what we do know is that the vaccine is safer.
That's fine. No one is saying they have to take the vaccine. But choices have consequences. Doctors who don't want to get the vaccine should find a private practice (or open their own) that respects that decision until you're satisfied with the data. But this trend of trying to force others to accept your (ill-informed) decisions and claiming it's your "right" to do this or that despite not following the rules is hogwash.
Why would we do that? It has nothing to do with what we're talking about. I am in favor of naturopaths being more regulated though.
For what? Who said an odd thing that killed someone?
It's standard practice to advocate flu vaccine for those eligible for it. So if you're not doing that, then you're not practicing good medicine. But no one is talking about force, either with flu vaccine or Covid vaccine.
Dude, you're going off the rails here. None of that is equivalent to making Covid vaccination a requirement for employment in a hospital. You're acting like we're going door-to-door threatening execution if people don't get vaccinated. That isn't what's going on.
Yea Oprah should be held accountable if she had people on her show who said things that led to harm; Dr. Oz should definitely be held accountable for the things he said and continues to say that are Plain wrong. Now what that means for him in particular is losing his medical license and a reprimand by whatever medical body oversees his license. If his employer allows him to continue to say whatever he says that his and their problem.
Doctors who argue against vaccines should be at the very least have to remediate basic microbiology before allowing to practice again.
Alcohol is a personal choice just like not getting a vaccine and smoking marijuana. But there is a “mandate” that doctors cannot come to work drunk or high, or else they will be fired. Even people with a history of abuse but don’t have any impairment at work are treated differently (often “asked” to get treatment. And I’d certainly look askew at any doctor and question their methods if they told people that there are no consequences to drinking alcohol or smoking cannabis. (This Argument kind of reminds me that nobody closed schools because of cancer, recently put out by an actual member of Congress).
I actually prescribe cannabis as medicine fairly regularly, but guess what, I went through the required training and did actual research into its use and have an hour long discussion with every patient about its benefits and risks. Contrasted to just saying you should get some marijuana cause some rando on TV said it works.
I'd be happy if it did start and end there, full stop.
Or really, anyone who wants to call themselves "doctor of something meant to treat people" (so many doctors of basketweaving get a pass on basketweaving here) can be held to the same malpractice standards and being sued. It's been shown when people become financially responsible for their bad advice, their advice tends to improve, lol. This is why contractors are responsible for their work, engineers, attorneys, and on and on.
Well, the fact the flu shot is yearly hasn't stopped hospitals from requiring it of employees. And I believe the CDC has now come out saying that anyone with 2 shots not 3 now can be considered not fully vaccinated. I may be wrong on this, but apparently this is exactly where discussion is going.
As far as long term data, there is the fact that these vaccines have been used in livestock for at least 10 years (it might be 15). I get that it's only animal studies and so that's limited, but I think we also have to consider what information we have beyond just human studies in describing how "new" and unknown a treatment is. Because even for new treatments, the amount of data available will vary.
As for how people feel, it's also possible that the people doing hiring are talking to employees, and they don't have to say "Candidate B isn't vaccinated", they can just say "How do you feel about us hiring and working with an unvaxxed employee?" And that could not only lead to finding out it's unpopular, but it could lead to grumbling and more questioning of vax status amongst everyone if it becomes clear to people or suspected that the employer doesn't have a policy and so then there might be more scrutiny and speculation for anyone hired at this point, or hell, even amongst existing employees.
Hell, one of the bars/sex clubs around here instituted an "everyone must show proof of vax" policy they didn't have to, just so they wouldn't have to deal with the speculation and bitching. Of course they then deal with a different type of bitching, but that bitching and speculation isn't occurring amongst the bar patrons any given night.
TB restrictions are for actual disease (latent or active), entirely different- I dont mind mandated screening for actual disease
And how is that not infringing on one's liberty?
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The known risk of COVID-19 vs the unknown risk of the vaccine? How is the risk of COVID-19 really more known? You say phase 3 trials of the vaccine started 7/2020 -- how much earlier did similar quality trials start on COVID-19? In terms of long term effects, the virus and the vaccine are similarly new.
Screening for TB is similar to screening for covid (either by questionnaire or laboratory tests), and is an entirely different type of liberty restriction, and an entirely different concept, than forced vaccinations
I have no problem with screening health care providers for infectious diseases
If there was good evidence for the covid vaccine significantly reducing transmission, I would be ok with states (who constitutionally regulate public health/infectious disease) requiring it for certain people, especially doctors
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The vaccines definitely have risks.... I had a month of inflammatory arthritis in my feet and ankles after my Pfizer booster. I was limping for a while. Fortunately I recovered
