Nontrad reapplicant - to apply for 2008 or 2009?

[compgrad]

Hi all

I'm a MS in Computer Engineering, and have been working for a Silicon Valley tech company for almost a year now.

I applied to med school 3 times during my undergrad and grad years - only once to US medical schools, all 3 times to Canadian schools

When I did apply to the US, I had no idea what I was doing, no idea about rolling admissions, so I left all my applications and secondaries to the deadline, not to mention that I didn't research average GPAs, etc. - that was a waste.

Anyway, here I am. I like computers, the money's great but I realized that I can't spend my life with a career where the greatest satisfaction I can expect is a pat on the back and stock options (and some chip going 1% faster). So, back to trying for med school it is.

Question is, am I too late for 2008?

I believe I need to retake the MCAT. I took it last in April 2003, got a 34R. I'm pretty confident of getting a 35+ with two months of studying

My GPA is about 3.58 (Canadian scale, should be about the same after translation to the AMCAS scale)
My BCPM GPA is 3.5+ if I include all the electrical engineering courses, maybe 3.4 if I don't

EC's - I have 2 years clinical experience, 2004-2005, and, and, that's about it

So, what do I do? Do I have a shot at 2008? Is this even the right forum? Moderators, please feel free to move this post to the "What are my chances" thread

compgrad
san jose

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[babi]

campgrad,

I applied much later than you last cycle, with less stellar stats than yours and managed to get in. Call and see if you MCAT is still valid for schools, send the primary asap, write a killer PS and get good LOCs. You should be fine. I always say that you never know until you try and the only thing you might lose if it does not work out this cycle is some money and a bit of a headache. Apply broadly and take all options into consideration, MD and DO and good luck. I never applied DO and was beating myself over the head for not doing so, because the more I read about it the more I liked it.

good luck

 

[sunset823]

MCAT scores are only valid for 3 years, so you do need to retake (sadly, because that's a good score!) - also, you may or may not know they moved to computerized exams - I'm not exactly sure of the new dates, but they do offer the test more often

However, I think you will be running late for this cycle; while your GPA is okay, it's not amazing, so you'll already be at some disadvantage, and having an expired MCAT score means your app won't be complete until you retake, and you don't want to risk doing worse the second time around (which is very likely with a great score like that and being away from the material for a while)

My advice would be to hold off till next year, take the MCAT sometime in the winter after some time studying and apply ASAP in early June 2008

Plus, another advantage - if you want to stay in Cali, the extra year may give you a residency, which will make things a lot easier in that hot market...

 

[compgrad]

campgrad,

I applied much later than you last cycle, with less stellar stats than yours and managed to get in. Call and see if you MCAT is still valid for schools, send the primary asap, write a killer PS and get good LOCs. You should be fine. I always say that you never know until you try and the only thing you might lose if it does not work out this cycle is some money and a bit of a headache. Apply broadly and take all options into consideration, MD and DO and good luck. I never applied DO and was beating myself over the head for not doing so, because the more I read about it the more I liked it.

good luck

Thanks for your replies.

babi: I don't think I want to do a DO, because I'd like to keep research and academia options open.

sunset823: I guess what you're saying is that I may not have much of a chance of getting in this year. I don't know, I totally agree with you that next year, I'll have a significantly greater chance of getting in, but is this year really a writeoff?

Question is, what do I lose if I apply this year? Lots of sleep, maybe a couple thousand dollars. If I mess up the MCAT, I can take it again in February anyway, right?

Now I appreciate your honesty, and to be honest, "postpone to next year" is not what I wanted to hear, but I guess it's closer to the truth that I am letting myself think

 

[dazed1980]

Hi, Compgrad. Just my opinion, but i don't think this year is a complete write off. i am going for the 2008 cycle and am yet to yake the mcat this august 20th. Never taken it before. I am still yet to send it my applications(just getting all my materials together). anyway, my point is, that october deadline is not for nothing, and untill that date,2008 is not a write off yet. GOODLUCK!

 

[sunset823]

Thanks for your replies.

babi: I don't think I want to do a DO, because I'd like to keep research and academia options open.

sunset823: I guess what you're saying is that I may not have much of a chance of getting in this year. I don't know, I totally agree with you that next year, I'll have a significantly greater chance of getting in, but is this year really a writeoff?

Question is, what do I lose if I apply this year? Lots of sleep, maybe a couple thousand dollars. If I mess up the MCAT, I can take it again in February anyway, right?

Now I appreciate your honesty, and to be honest, "postpone to next year" is not what I wanted to hear, but I guess it's closer to the truth that I am letting myself think

I didn't mean to say don't apply this year, I was just giving you honest chances that your app won't be as competitive, and I've seen firsthand how people with very good apps haven't gotten in. I decided to take another year to make my app stronger, and these are my major considerations:
1) $$$ - the app process is ridiculously expensive; this may not be as much of a consideration for you, but for me, with all debt and little income right now, it was huge
2) reapplicant status - it is better to have a strong showing the first time around than to reapply - as a reapplicant, you will have to show 'significant improvement' and change essays and such, which may not be easy in course of a year

so, I'm just saying by all means apply if you want to, but be realistic about the chances and very vigilant about secondaries and such, turning them in on time; anyhow, good luck!

 

[compgrad]

I didn't mean to say don't apply this year, I was just giving you honest chances that your app won't be as competitive, and I've seen firsthand how people with very good apps haven't gotten in. I decided to take another year to make my app stronger, and these are my major considerations:
1) $$$ - the app process is ridiculously expensive; this may not be as much of a consideration for you, but for me, with all debt and little income right now, it was huge
2) reapplicant status - it is better to have a strong showing the first time around than to reapply - as a reapplicant, you will have to show 'significant improvement' and change essays and such, which may not be easy in course of a year

so, I'm just saying by all means apply if you want to, but be realistic about the chances and very vigilant about secondaries and such, turning them in on time; anyhow, good luck!

Reapplicant status: This is the first time I've heard of this. So we don't start from a clean slate each year, and med schools have access to our past applications? In that case, I'm screwed anyway, since I had a very poor application for 2004

 

[Captain Fantastic]

babi: I don't think I want to do a DO, because I'd like to keep research and academia options open.

We have a guy here who is a DO (KCUMB grad). He did an allopathic IM residency and nephrology fellowship. He finished his fellowship last year and joined the (allopathic) med school faculty. He is a reviewer for The Lancet, Archives of Internal Medicine, Kidney International, Nature Clinical Practice: Endocrinology and Metabolism, and some others.

Just saying DO won't close those doors. The only people who worry about the DO "stigma" are pre-meds.

 

[compgrad]

We have a guy here who is a DO (KCUMB grad). He did an allopathic IM residency and nephrology fellowship. He finished his fellowship last year and joined the (allopathic) med school faculty. He is a reviewer for The Lancet, Archives of Internal Medicine, Kidney International, Nature Clinical Practice: Endocrinology and Metabolism, and some others.

Just saying DO won't close those doors. The only people who worry about the DO "stigma" are pre-meds.

Hmm, I guess I need to do a little more research about DO then. Still, I have a very good feeling DO is not for me, especially if I want to practice in Canada, which is notoriously strict for foreign MD's in the first place. Anyway, I'll read up more on the MD vs DO debate, which I'm sure has been staged many many times on SDN......


Still worried about reapplicant status................

 

[thegenius]

Compgrad, you and I are very similar! I have an MS in Biomedical Engineering and worked in Silicon Valley as an enterprise Java developer for 7 years (worked at Inktomi, USWebCKS, QRS/Inovis, M-Factor, etc, maybe you heard of some of these companies!) I decided that I didn't want to do software anymore, for many of the same reasons you mentioned.

I applied with a BCMP of about 3.5, overall 3.4, 31S, excellent LORs, what I considered to be an excellent PS, and I got into several schools. I did apply to about 35 though. If you can get in the ballpark of your previous MCAT then you have competitive numbers. But getting into medical school requires a more well-rounded application. Your essay has to be excellent and well thought out, your LOR's have to be great, and you'll have to show (and not tell) why you are committed to this career change.

But I think your chances are very good.

I also believe that your chances of getting in go up significantly if you can be in one of the first batches of viewed applications, meaning that you should have everything set by June and send in your application by July. You'll gain a competitive advantage over others.

If you feel you can tidy up your application (and take the MCAT too) in time for that date, then you should be OK. If not, take a year off to make sure you get there.

Hope that helps.

 

[budhak0n]

We have a guy here who is a DO (KCUMB grad). He did an allopathic IM residency and nephrology fellowship. He finished his fellowship last year and joined the (allopathic) med school faculty. He is a reviewer for The Lancet, Archives of Internal Medicine, Kidney International, Nature Clinical Practice: Endocrinology and Metabolism, and some others.

Just saying DO won't close those doors. The only people who worry about the DO "stigma" are pre-meds.

Yeah exactly.. didn't get his comment at all, but then again people will create classifications even where one does not exist.

If M.D./D.O.'s are both eligible for the same residencies ... what in the world would make somebody think they couldn't do research as a D.O. and planning to do 'research'? What type of 'research' exactly...?

I swear and I know this is just some wacko idyllic thing that has always been in my brain and blood alone, but some people with the whole money thing just never really "get" it.

Dude your stock options... if you want to make a bundle of CASH are probably your best bet... If you want to be wealthy, go rob wall street or rip off some federal program like everybody else....

Hey I'm not an expert and everybody's got their spot but seriously and we all know in the REAL world things don't work this way, but you would think that all physicians starting out would be completely oriented to family medicine.. not saying they would stay there .. but isn't that really the point?

Maybe that's why we've got the supposed health care problem... What we have here is what? Someone who wants to boast about engineering grades who doesn't like the fact that somebody gave him a lot of money to play space invaders and now thinks a D.O. school would cut down on the federal funds available to conduct illegal genetic coding and breeding in 'research'?

Sorry don't get the whole spiel. You want to go to med school instead of working for Apple or Logitech or whoever... go right ahead... I hope you're happy with your decision but I would think somewhere you "might" want to consider what it might be like taking care of actual patients <g>.

Sorry I know I'm being harsh when it's not really necessary but hey it's been that kind of week around these parts and what comes around sometimes likes to fly around... just like I'm quite sure all my bad vibes in this post will someday work their way back around to Moi.

enjoy the tour. Wish I could be more helpful. LOL

 

[sunset823]

Reapplicant status: This is the first time I've heard of this. So we don't start from a clean slate each year, and med schools have access to our past applications? In that case, I'm screwed anyway, since I had a very poor application for 2004

to get back on topic, no, you don't have a 'clean slate', particularly if you apply to the same schools within a short time range; but, 2004 was a long time ago, and it would be pretty easy to show significant improvement since then; I was only talking about applying late in 2007 and if not getting in, applying early in 2008 would put you at a disadvantage if not much has changed in your app

 

[budhak0n]

Oh and something that just is going "wacko" in the back of my brain.

If your numbers are accurate, what makes you think that you had a weak application? Are you sure it's not that you didn't feel like you communicated well to the interviewer? Or something along those lines...

Because, like I said, not being an expert or anything, numbers wise I wouldnt think it would be all that bad an application. By weak, what do you mean?

Maybe the interviewers thought you were more interested in being the next recipient of a dot com dream, than you were interested in becoming a doctor and helping sick people?

Which seriously is not a bad thing at all. There's nothing wrong with being honest. And hey if that means you don't get into this program or that program or you don't get this million or that billion well so be it. But at least you were honest with the people you worked.

I didn't really understand why people were saying GPA/MCAT weren't everything but I think I can probably see it better <g>

 

[compgrad]

to get back on topic, no, you don't have a 'clean slate', particularly if you apply to the same schools within a short time range; but, 2004 was a long time ago, and it would be pretty easy to show significant improvement since then; I was only talking about applying late in 2007 and if not getting in, applying early in 2008 would put you at a disadvantage if not much has changed in your app

Well, the only difference in my entering class 2008 and 2009 applications would be 6-8 months of volunteer work, an improved MCAT, and maybe one publication.

In any case, all this seems to be a moot point, because all the MCAT test centers in my area don't have any seats available before Sep 15, which is the MCAT deadline if I want to make it for this application cycle.

So much for 2008, then...

 

[compgrad]

Regarding the accusatory comments by budhak0n, I have reported both posts to the forum moderators.

To anyone who cares to know, I don't want to do a DO. Why? Because I want to leave as many doors and options open as possible, and going the DO way _will_ close off or at least make some avenues harder.

I don't feel that I need to explain my motivations for medical school to someone whose first words to me are hateful. Having said that, I feel the need to defend myself against this mudslinging.

if I was in it for money/fame/whatever, I would stay in silicon valley, because I could make way more in terms of money/fame/recognition in the field I am in than I could dream of making as a doctor.

Mods: To preserve thread integrity, I'll delete this post once the earlier two by budhak0n are deleted

 

[budhak0n]

Regarding the accusatory comments by budhak0n, I have reported both posts to the forum moderators.

To anyone who cares to know, I don't want to do a DO. Why? Because I want to leave as many doors and options open as possible, and going the DO way _will_ close off or at least make some avenues harder.

I don't feel that I need to explain my motivations for medical school to someone whose first words to me are hateful. Having said that, I feel the need to defend myself against this mudslinging.

if I was in it for money/fame/whatever, I would stay in silicon valley, because I could make way more in terms of money/fame/recognition in the field I am in than I could dream of making as a doctor.

Mods: To preserve thread integrity, I'll delete this post once the earlier two by budhak0n are deleted

Hey dude ranch, I told ya I wasn't in the best of moods and that what I said was probably way out of line anyway....

I'm not accusing anybody of anything... I'm just saying what came to my mind when I read your thread... just as many people have been more than willing to add what came to mind on many of mine.

Maybe you should report your less than stellar job satisfaction to Bill Gates or something..

I'm sorry if you don't like the tone of my response but I would not think that there is anything contained within it that is "personally" out of line..

if the mods see otherwise, thats why they are the mods...

All I was saying was ... what do you think was so weak about the application and why did you just wack D.O. programs? Because to me the whole thing didn't make a whole lot of sense.

I hope you find what you're looking for, there's plenty of people out there who change careers many many times.. some because of happiness, some because of money, some because they want to live somewhere else..

There was "SOMETHING" in your previous application process you left out.... and asking the mods to delete something you don't like won't change it... What was in it? And I'm not being a jag off... I'm fully aware that there's a better chance that I, as well as many others, may not get in... much better chance than I will... but i'm just wondering what it was you left out..

because there has to be some reason you feel it was a weak app in 04.. ur numbers look good.

 

[compgrad]

thegenius:

Yeah, I've heard of Inktomi, and the other names seem vaguely familiar. Silicon Valley is great, don't get me wrong. I know that millions of engineers would kill to be here, but I dunno, this just isn't for me.


So you think my chances are good but recommend applying early in the cycle. So that's pushed out to the 2009 entering class then......

I guess I should face the writing on the wall - no go for 2008

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Compgrad, I wouldn't worry too much about not making the 2008 deadline. You have a good science GPA and you should get an excellent MCAT score. However, AMCAS computers have a long memory and your previous application history is all going to be available. The problem is, you've got the numbers but bolting from your Silicon Valley job after just a year makes you look immature and unfocused - and you're already going to have a "red-flag" because of your extensive previous application history (unless you go osteopathic, where you would have a clean slate).

You don't need to wait 10 years until your pre-reqs are too old to use. But I would suggest that maybe another year or two in your current job might not be such a bad idea. I was 44 years old when I applied and I was ready to make the move to medicine - but career-changers get heavily questioned on their motivation to come to medicine - and, again, I'm afraid you'll look smart, but immature, to allopathic schools. If you've been at the job for 2 or 3 years (3 would be better), it's easier for you to credibly state that you've tried your career, don't enjoy it as much as you expected, and you want to revive your dream of medicine. After just one year, that statement is not going to sound very good.

Sorry not to be more encouraging (unless you try the osteopathic route) - but, trust me, in the big scheme of things, another year or two is much less time than you think it is. Good luck.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

And by the way, compgrad, you have a very low post count - so I'll share this with you and I mean absolutely no offense... sometimes when you ask for advice in a public forum with as large a membership as SDN, a few people might not like what you asked - or how you asked it - or they may question your motives. Unless it's a name-calling, threatening, or false-accusation attack, you just have to deal with the fact that not everyone is going to be always supportive. I'm not a moderator, but I seriously doubt that budhakOn is going to be called on the carpet nor will his posts be deleted. His comments may be tough, but I think they're well within the bounds of what is acceptable. Just my $.02...

 

[compgrad]

I see what you're saying, and I've been thinking about it.

I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather do the best I can in 2009 than do a half-baked job for 2008. Makes sense for a lot of reasons:
lots of study time for the MCAT - I'm fairly confident of mid-high 30s if I have 4-6 months to get prepared
time to get some more EC's and clinical experience in
maybe even complete a publication (from my masters thesis)

As far as redflagging for multiple applications goes, I applied to US schools only once, the other two times were Canada only, where they look at each year without prejudice, but yes, I do want to avoid the half-baked application this year.

Thanks for the advice, and you're right, I was too short-sighted, thinking 2008 2008 2008 2008...

Compgrad, I wouldn't worry too much about not making the 2008 deadline. You have a good science GPA and you should get an excellent MCAT score. However, AMCAS computers have a long memory and your previous application history is all going to be available. The problem is, you've got the numbers but bolting from your Silicon Valley job after just a year makes you look immature and unfocused - and you're already going to have a "red-flag" because of your extensive previous application history (unless you go osteopathic, where you would have a clean slate).

You don't need to wait 10 years until your pre-reqs are too old to use. But I would suggest that maybe another year or two in your current job might not be such a bad idea. I was 44 years old when I applied and I was ready to make the move to medicine - but career-changers get heavily questioned on their motivation to come to medicine - and, again, I'm afraid you'll look smart, but immature, to allopathic schools. If you've been at the job for 2 or 3 years (3 would be better), it's easier for you to credibly state that you've tried your career, don't enjoy it as much as you expected, and you want to revive your dream of medicine. After just one year, that statement is not going to sound very good.

Sorry not to be more encouraging (unless you try the osteopathic route) - but, trust me, in the big scheme of things, another year or two is much less time than you think it is. Good luck.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Hey, good luck to you, compgrad. I really think with another year or two under your belt you'll be a much better candidate (don't forget, Canadian schools that are LCME will have your history in AMCAS even if they didn't ask if you were a reapplicant). I remember when I was in my twenties, waiting another year for anything seemed like forever. Now that I'm 45, it's unbelieveable how fast a year passes. It seems like I was on my first day on MS-I yesterday - but now I'm an MS-II and I can't believe that I'll actually be on the wards in less than a year!! Once you get into medical school, time will fly - and you'll be very grounded and confident of your decision. Take care.

 

[tkim]

Hmm, I guess I need to do a little more research about DO then. Still, I have a very good feeling DO is not for me, especially if I want to practice in Canada, which is notoriously strict for foreign MD's in the first place.

From the FAQ:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=107627

"Canada

Alberta
Scope of Practice: unlimited

British Columbia
Scope of Practice: one licensure pathway provides D.O.s with unlimited practice rights, and another pathway limits D.O.s to practice OMM

Manitoba
Scope of Practice: unlimited

New Brunswick
Scope of Practice: unlimited

Newfoundland
Scope of Practice to be determined

Northwest Territories
Scope of Practice: unlimited

Nova Scotia
Scope of Practice: unlimited

Ontario
Scope of Practice: Unlimited

Prince Edward Island
Scope of Practice: no provisions exist for licensing US-trained D.O.s

Quebec
Scope of Practice: unlimited

Saskatchewan
Scope of Practice: limited to OMM

Yukon Territory
Scope of Practice: unlimited"

 

[compgrad]

wow, that's an eye-opener. i'll look into this more. thanks very very much, tkim, I don't know what I was thinking.....

From the FAQ:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=107627

"Canada

Alberta
Scope of Practice: unlimited

British Columbia
Scope of Practice: one licensure pathway provides D.O.s with unlimited practice rights, and another pathway limits D.O.s to practice OMM

Manitoba
Scope of Practice: unlimited

New Brunswick
Scope of Practice: unlimited

Newfoundland
Scope of Practice to be determined

Northwest Territories
Scope of Practice: unlimited

Nova Scotia
Scope of Practice: unlimited

Ontario
Scope of Practice: Unlimited

Prince Edward Island
Scope of Practice: no provisions exist for licensing US-trained D.O.s

Quebec
Scope of Practice: unlimited

Saskatchewan
Scope of Practice: limited to OMM

Yukon Territory
Scope of Practice: unlimited"