Nontraditional student -- best options?

[strange_alchemy]

As the title says, I'm a nontraditional student. I got an AA in Psychology and a BA in Criminal Justice with a minor in psychology before entering the military, where I worked law enforcement primarily. I was medically discharged from the military after 4 years, and now I'm at a crossroads. I had two backup ideas as I was leaving the military: digital forensics and forensic psychology. I went with the former because I thought it would be less competitive. I'm halfway through an MS in Digital Forensics (for which I'm paying with a veterans benefit that ISN'T the GI Bill), and I'm enjoying it, but I've found that I spend nearly all of my downtime reading psychology papers and journals. I don't have a strong interest in doing publishing research, but I find myself thinking about applications to clinical practices.

Perhaps it's nothing more than FOMO or doubt in my own competency, but I would like to pose the question: supposing I don't go into digital forensics and make the pivot to psychology, what would be my best options?

My community college GPA and university GPA for psychology were both 3.8. I entered the military straight from university, so I don't have any publications or posters, nor do I have research experience. I currently work as a behavior technician at a clinic specializing in autism, where I'm providing therapy with a supervisor present, documenting and graphing the child's progress, etc. I'm enjoying this and would love to be able to provide therapy without supervision and on my own terms (I wish I could give some of these kids assessments). I'm waiting to hear back on a digital forensics internship, but the longer I work here, the less I care about the internship. (I don't think I'd stay in autism, though.)

I still have my GI Bill, and if I stay in digital forensics, the bill will go to waste. I don't mind waiting a few years to use it, but I'm debating on attempting to get research experience in the meantime or just hunkering down and searching for work in digital forensics.

I also cannot leave the state of Ohio. So if I put my GI Bill to use, it would absolutely have to be used on an Ohio university. I understand that psychology graduate programs are extremely difficult to get into and that makes my geographical limits risky. I suppose I'm just looking to create a discussion on the benefits of a master's degree, PhD, or PsyD in various Ohioan universities and if I should simply drop the idea altogether. I have a bit of a mental block about getting another MS, but I know it's ridiculously difficult to get into a PhD program, and I'm not sure my GI Bill would fully cover a PsyD.

Universities in which I'm particularly interested: The Ohio State, Xavier, Wright State, Kent State, Miami U. Most of these don't have a terminal master's program. I could also do Tiffin, but I think their degree is online (I don't have a problem with online degrees honestly, but I enjoy the clinical side of psychology, and I'm not convinced this would be beneficial).

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[summerbabe]

I currently work as a behavior technician at a clinic specializing in autism, where I'm providing therapy with a supervisor present, documenting and graphing the child's progress, etc. I'm enjoying this and would love to be able to provide therapy without supervision and on my own terms (I wish I could give some of these kids assessments).

Congrats on taking advantage of your benefits and trying to hit the ground running post medical retirement.

I think you could benefit from thinking more broadly about what you'd like to do day to day and then figuring out what program(s) might help you get there.

If you think your passion is daily clinical work, then the question becomes what type of clinical work (kids with autism, kids/adolescents more broadly, all adults, etc).

The vast majority of mental health clinicians in this country do not have a PhD. Instead, they have attend licensable MSW, LPC, MFT and MHC programs, do some postdoc hours to meet state licensure requirements and then practice independently. They can own their independent private practice or work in somebody else's, work for hospitals/state/federal entities, supervise trainees, and more.

Is there something about the PhD that is needed to open up career paths that a Masters level degree and license couldn't? For example, certain assessments are limited to doctoral degree holders but is that worth the additional time and effort required to get a PhD/PsyD, which will be significantly greater than a Masters degree? Like how much assessment would you want to do? Plus in many fields, there are ways for Masters level providers to do certain types of assessments/evaluations (but not others) so is the difference worth the added effort?

If you were to go down the PhD path and especially since you're geographically limited, you may need to work extra hard to boost your research background to stand out while also making sure you're a good fit for this limited # of programs. And the chances of not getting an offer significantly increase when we are geographically restricted.

Plus for funded programs, your ability to use the GI Bill might be seen as a plus but would probably not get you an offer over a more qualified student. Good luck!

 

[PsyDr]

I think it is important to define what you think forensic psychology is like. Many people who say that think about profiling and silence of the lambs… those characters are fbi agents, not psychologists.

If you’re looking for that job, the fbi recruits heavily from law schools and to a lesser extent law enforcement.

The incredible majority of forensic psychology is evaluating sex offenders, saying someone is competent (which takes almost zero education), annd if you’re reckless enough: doing child custody evals.

The fascinating stuff is relegated to a few individuals in the entire country. And 90% of the time, serial killers are super dumb, and uninteresting. Go watch interviews with the green river killer, or think about how infinitely d.u.m.b.. Mansons overall plan was (ie., hur dur, the African descendant fellers are gonna overthrow society but then they’re gonna need a white guy to lead them, because despite overtaking the most powerful military in history, they’ll lack leadership, and a failed musician turned dune buggy thief is exactly what they’ll be looking for).

Related areas include corrections psychology (ie treating people already in prison) and public psychology (treating cops and firefighters).

Every profession has its interesting bits and bread and butter. Just be sure that you don’t plan on being Dan Marino, when you’re really gonna be Justin Tucker.

 

[strange_alchemy]

I think it is important to define what you think forensic psychology is like. Many people who say that think about profiling and silence of the lambs… those characters are fbi agents, not psychologists.

If you’re looking for that job, the fbi recruits heavily from law schools and to a lesser extent law enforcement.

The incredible majority of forensic psychology is evaluating sex offenders, saying someone is competent (which takes almost zero education), annd if you’re reckless enough: doing child custody evals.

The fascinating stuff is relegated to a few individuals in the entire country. And 90% of the time, serial killers are super dumb, and uninteresting. Go watch interviews with the green river killer, or think about how infinitely d.u.m.b.. Mansons overall plan was (ie., hur dur, the African descendant fellers are gonna overthrow society but then they’re gonna need a white guy to lead them, because despite overtaking the most powerful military in history, they’ll lack leadership, and a failed musician turned dune buggy thief is exactly what they’ll be looking for).

Related areas include corrections psychology (ie treating people already in prison) and public psychology (treating cops and firefighters).

Every profession has its interesting bits and bread and butter. Just be sure that you don’t plan on being Dan Marino, when you’re really gonna be Justin Tucker.

Yeah, I do know what forensic psychology entails and that it's not the "romantic" stuff. I structured my undergrad around forensic psychology (I wanted to be able to evaluate offenders, potentially work in a corrections environment if the former proved unfulfilling), much of my law enforcement work was directly with sex offenders (I have friends who perform evals who were the ones who initially suggested the field for me), and the internship I'm waiting on is focused on human trafficking (particularly dealing with cp). The reason it was one of my backup ideas was because I felt like I could market myself in that arena the best. When I first had the idea, I wasn't thinking about what my actual dream job would be, just what I already had some degree of experience with.

Congrats on taking advantage of your benefits and trying to hit the ground running post medical retirement.

I think you could benefit from thinking more broadly about what you'd like to do day to day and then figuring out what program(s) might help you get there.

If you think your passion is daily clinical work, then the question becomes what type of clinical work (kids with autism, kids/adolescents more broadly, all adults, etc).

The vast majority of mental health clinicians in this country do not have a PhD. Instead, they have attend licensable MSW, LPC, MFT and MHC programs, do some postdoc hours to meet state licensure requirements and then practice independently. They can own their independent private practice or work in somebody else's, work for hospitals/state/federal entities, supervise trainees, and more.

Is there something about the PhD that is needed to open up career paths that a Masters level degree and license couldn't? For example, certain assessments are limited to doctoral degree holders but is that worth the additional time and effort required to get a PhD/PsyD, which will be significantly greater than a Masters degree? Like how much assessment would you want to do? Plus in many fields, there are ways for Masters level providers to do certain types of assessments/evaluations (but not others) so is the difference worth the added effort?

If you were to go down the PhD path and especially since you're geographically limited, you may need to work extra hard to boost your research background to stand out while also making sure you're a good fit for this limited # of programs. And the chances of not getting an offer significantly increase when we are geographically restricted.

Plus for funded programs, your ability to use the GI Bill might be seen as a plus but would probably not get you an offer over a more qualified student. Good luck!

Thank you for all this information.

Honestly, I thought you needed a PhD/PsyD to open up a practice, and that is what I've been finding myself most drawn toward... down the road, obviously, since that would require money. I think my hesitation with getting another master's is just the fear that it would be a waste of the GI bill that could've been used on a doctorate degree, but if I can accomplish what I would like to accomplish with less education, then it would be silly to earmark the bill for anything else.

It seems my next step is to research the different licenses available at the masters level. I still don't think there are any terminal psychology masters in Ohio, but I didn't look too hard, so I should probably double-check.

 

[Dazen]

I think it is important to define what you think forensic psychology is like. Many people who say that think about profiling and silence of the lambs… those characters are fbi agents, not psychologists.

If you’re looking for that job, the fbi recruits heavily from law schools and to a lesser extent law enforcement.

The incredible majority of forensic psychology is evaluating sex offenders, saying someone is competent (which takes almost zero education), annd if you’re reckless enough: doing child custody evals.

The fascinating stuff is relegated to a few individuals in the entire country. And 90% of the time, serial killers are super dumb, and uninteresting. Go watch interviews with the green river killer, or think about how infinitely d.u.m.b.. Mansons overall plan was (ie., hur dur, the African descendant fellers are gonna overthrow society but then they’re gonna need a white guy to lead them, because despite overtaking the most powerful military in history, they’ll lack leadership, and a failed musician turned dune buggy thief is exactly what they’ll be looking for).

Related areas include corrections psychology (ie treating people already in prison) and public psychology (treating cops and firefighters).

Every profession has its interesting bits and bread and butter. Just be sure that you don’t plan on being Dan Marino, when you’re really gonna be Justin Tucker.

I'd much rather be Justin Tucker then, for example, Daniel Jones...

 

[summerbabe]

Honestly, I thought you needed a PhD/PsyD to open up a practice, and that is what I've been finding myself most drawn toward... down the road, obviously, since that would require money. I think my hesitation with getting another master's is just the fear that it would be a waste of the GI bill that could've been used on a doctorate degree, but if I can accomplish what I would like to accomplish with less education, then it would be silly to earmark the bill for anything else.

It seems my next step is to research the different licenses available at the masters level. I still don't think there are any terminal psychology masters in Ohio, but I didn't look too hard, so I should probably double-check.

I would look into getting some informal mentoring if possible. Maybe somebody at your current work place? Or join some local Ohio clinician Facebook groups? There may also be local/regional psychological/social work/etc associations which may offer student memberships. Their listserv and opportunities to be paired up with a mentor to pick their brain could be helpful.

A solo practitioner private practice is as easy to establish as a) having a license in your jurisdiction b) setting up a webpage or contracting with insurance companies c) figuring out if you need any business or taxation paperwork/licenses d) see patients e) get paid. Things get more complex if you want to employ others but these complexities are not degree dependent.

Lastly, many state schools in Ohio should have at least 1 if not multiple licensable clinical masters programs (ignore terminal psychology masters programs - they are more for building research CVs or wayward students who don't want to enter the real world).

My quick googling says OSU has social work, couple and family therapy and counselor education programs. Think of these programs like teacher education programs since public universities are supposed to serve the public good, which includes training clinicians who then work in local Ohio communities. Or they can just revolve around trying to beat Michigan at football. Good luck!

 

[PsyDr]

I'd much rather be Justin Tucker then, for example, Daniel Jones...

We both know I had to look that up!

Yeah, I do know what forensic psychology entails and that it's not the "romantic" stuff. I structured my undergrad around forensic psychology (I wanted to be able to evaluate offenders, potentially work in a corrections environment if the former proved unfulfilling), much of my law enforcement work was directly with sex offenders (I have friends who perform evals who were the ones who initially suggested the field for me), and the internship I'm waiting on is focused on human trafficking (particularly dealing with cp). …

It seems my next step is to research the different licenses available at the masters level. I still don't think there are any terminal psychology masters in Ohio, but I didn't look too hard, so I should probably double-check.

You can get a MA in counseling and get a job in a “prison town”, with limited effort. It’s like 3 years, with the last year being paid. You’d be at the bottom of barrel in terms of respect in the profession. But it’s an important job, on a societal basis.

 

[The Cinnabon]

I think it is important to define what you think forensic psychology is like. Many people who say that think about profiling and silence of the lambs… those characters are fbi agents, not psychologists.

If you’re looking for that job, the fbi recruits heavily from law schools and to a lesser extent law enforcement.

The incredible majority of forensic psychology is evaluating sex offenders, saying someone is competent (which takes almost zero education), annd if you’re reckless enough: doing child custody evals.

The fascinating stuff is relegated to a few individuals in the entire country. And 90% of the time, serial killers are super dumb, and uninteresting. Go watch interviews with the green river killer, or think about how infinitely d.u.m.b.. Mansons overall plan was (ie., hur dur, the African descendant fellers are gonna overthrow society but then they’re gonna need a white guy to lead them, because despite overtaking the most powerful military in history, they’ll lack leadership, and a failed musician turned dune buggy thief is exactly what they’ll be looking for).

Related areas include corrections psychology (ie treating people already in prison) and public psychology (treating cops and firefighters).

Every profession has its interesting bits and bread and butter. Just be sure that you don’t plan on being Dan Marino, when you’re really gonna be Justin Tucker.

Hijacking the thread for a second, but am I to assume that child custody evals are quite dangerous to do? I know family law has a crazy high violence rate, but one of the programs I'm interviewing at soon does have pretty close connections to its law school. Forensics really isn't my intended interest ... but I'm also not going to say no to dipping my toes in the water if a program produces solid forensic psychologists and I child custody evals seemed like something my completely uneducated self may be interested in.

 

[Sanman]

Hijacking the thread for a second, but am I to assume that child custody evals are quite dangerous to do? I know family law has a crazy high violence rate, but one of the programs I'm interviewing at soon does have pretty close connections to its law school. Forensics really isn't my intended interest ... but I'm also not going to say no to dipping my toes in the water if a program produces solid forensic psychologists and I child custody evals seemed like something my completely uneducated self may be interested in.

A high violence rate and, iirc, the highest rate of malpractice suits in the field. Turns out taking kids away from parents is a good way to piss people off.

 

[PsychSupreme]

You may find this to be informative:

Careers in Mental Health (Omnibus v. 2)

docs.google.com

 

[Doctor Eliza]

OSU has an excellent MSW program!

 

[The Cinnabon]

A high violence rate and, iirc, the highest rate of malpractice suits in the field. Turns out taking kids away from parents is a good way to piss people off.

Is the pay at least comparable to typical expert witness work (good)?


Sorry for the hijack. Last question I promise lol.

 

[PsyDr]

Hijacking the thread for a second, but am I to assume that child custody evals are quite dangerous to do? I know family law has a crazy high violence rate, but one of the programs I'm interviewing at soon does have pretty close connections to its law school. Forensics really isn't my intended interest ... but I'm also not going to say no to dipping my toes in the water if a program produces solid forensic psychologists and I child custody evals seemed like something my completely uneducated self may be interested in.

The pay is incredible. But 100% of the time, 50% of the people are going to be mad at you. Your chances of getting a board complaint and/or being sued are high. Those types of expenses can drastically eat into your bottom line (I.e., if you made $60k on a case, but then had to spend $40k in legal defenses and another 80hrs of free work to defend yourself, you’ve lost money).

I’m not an outdoors person, and even I know you never get between an animal and its cubs. If you look at the stats, the majority of kidnappings are perpetrated by a non-custodial parent. These fools are so blinded by emotion, that they are committing a crime where there is almost zero chance of getting away. That should tell you something about your chances of a person coming to your office and causing a scene.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Is the pay at least comparable to typical expert witness work (good)?


Sorry for the hijack. Last question I promise lol.

Also not to thread hijack with my my response, but as the OP has gotten (and hopefully will continue to get) quality responses: yes, the pay (from what I hear) is very good. I respect people who choose to perform those evals, and admire those who do them well. I would never want to get near one myself. If I did, I'd be darn sure my office were ideally in a larger building with good security at the main door, and I'd be double sure none of my private information were online. I'd probably also carry some good life and own occupation disability insurance.

In the mean time, I'll stick with possibly 50% of attorneys being mad at me.

 

[summerbabe]

Hijacking the thread for a second…..Forensics really isn't my intended interest ... but I'm also not going to say no to dipping my toes in the water if a program produces solid forensic psychologists and I child custody evals seemed like something my completely uneducated self may be interested in.

And if you’re qualified to get admitted into a PhD, you’re almost certainly competent enough to do anything within psychology with the requisite learning and training. And you’ll have plenty of opportunities to get experience in plenty of subareas. In fact, more than what one could ever take on.

So a more important question to ask yourself might be ‘what do I actually want to do with my career’? Stay interested in lots of things now but also choose wisely where you put in time (if/when you have choices in grad school).

I would never do this kind of work because we ultimately get a lot of say in the types of patient populations and environments we want to be in professionally.

And choosing correctly will help us hopefully be happier and sustain ourselves against professional burnout.

I know people who do neuro or gero because they had family members impacted by dementia and they find it rewarding to do accurate evals and provide feedback in a compassionate fashion. Some are fascinated by trauma and find that work rewarding and stimulating to help patient retrain trauma informed beliefs and behaviors. Or you find something that fits your salary requirements and enjoy whatever benefits this provides.

But I’ve never thought to myself….hmmm let me constantly throw myself into the middle of acrimonious divorces where emotions are running high and resentment has likely been building for a long time & where my personal liability is through the roof.