I had been doing research, my first experience thus far and I am perplexed by the behavior of my lab mentor. Mind you, I am a senior philosophy major, with a bio minor who is just getting involved in research. He has disrespected me three times, the third of which I left the lab and explained that things were not working to which he apologized and said he understood. The first time revolved around a protocol he gave for restriction enzymes. He did not explain that endonucleases and buffers had to be put in at the same time. He emitted a loud f**k, slapped his head and had me start over. The second time, he explained 2 tools were used in inoculating cultures, one a loop and the other a needle. I asked him what the difference was, to which he replied, "well obviously, one is a needle shaped, and one is a loop". The third and last time he explained that "resediment" simply meant to centrifuge. Later he held that resediment meant to centrifuge, wash, and grind a pellet-to which I only centrifuged like he told me. He blew up once again. He does not look at me when I speak to him, and generally explains how to use the machines, but nothing on protocol. Is this normal behavior when working under a lab mentor? I must say that I am discouraged. I plan to try a different lab the next chance I get, but I am concerned that maybe science is all about sucking it up to which I am not willing to subject myself. I am just curious if I can look forward to more of this as I move up the ladder toward being a physician-scientist.
Normal lab advisor behavior?
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From what I read I personally think you may be overreacting a little bit, maybe he is just a little frustrated but still trying to help you. But if you really feel that he's not going to help you or let you make mistakes, then you should leave since you won't learn much and won't get a good project! Definitely none of my research experiences involved sucking up!
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It's time to move on to another lab that will assign someone more patient and who is used to teaching others. Anyone who has trained people will know that there's a learning curve, and that mistakes ALWAYS happen.
I assume that you are working for free-never put up with abusive conditions. There will be many other labs more than willing to take you.
Remember that when there's doubt-there's no doubt. Follow your instincts.
Goodluck!
I assume that you are working for free-never put up with abusive conditions. There will be many other labs more than willing to take you.
Remember that when there's doubt-there's no doubt. Follow your instincts.
Goodluck!
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3/5 PIs I've worked for have been far worse than that. Hard to sniff them out too because when you rotate or you just start, the PI tends to put on a good face. I'd say to get a thick skin, cause you'll get far worse than this in clinics too. You need to not take things personally if you're going to be a physician or a scientist.
I don't think I've ever once had a PI who will go over nitty gritty details of lab work with me. That's always left to a grad student or post-doc. Several profs I've worked for when I submit a manuscript with their name on it will give a cursory glance and hand it back to me. Even with glaring errors they tell me it's fine. Yet another prof I work for is very detail oriented, fixing every little grammar mistake and uncovering every tiny little mistake he thinks I've made. But when he annotates the paper, he tends to insult me. Guess who I'd rather work for?
But, if you really don't like this person, why not switch labs. That's up to you. You're an undergrad, you should explore.
I don't think I've ever once had a PI who will go over nitty gritty details of lab work with me. That's always left to a grad student or post-doc. Several profs I've worked for when I submit a manuscript with their name on it will give a cursory glance and hand it back to me. Even with glaring errors they tell me it's fine. Yet another prof I work for is very detail oriented, fixing every little grammar mistake and uncovering every tiny little mistake he thinks I've made. But when he annotates the paper, he tends to insult me. Guess who I'd rather work for?
But, if you really don't like this person, why not switch labs. That's up to you. You're an undergrad, you should explore.
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I agree with Neuronix to some extent. You definitely need to work on growing a thick skin in this career. The only difference is that in medical school and in residency, you don't get to pick those that train you. In your case, you do get to pick, and you should leave this lab asap and find one that is set up better to teach you. It's clear you're not comfortable where you are and it probably won't get better. In my experience, it's generally the nervous insecure type of PI that micromanages and over-reacts like this. If you're nervous or inexperienced, you'll make that worse. Best to move on.
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Move out of the lab- you're an undergrad and you still have this option. Is this the PI or a post doc/ grad student? Even if its the latter, that person will still create a toxic environment for you.
In the future though, the buffer needs to go in before the enzyme (not necessarily the same time, you just need the buffer in your mixture before the enzyme) so your enzyme does not denature. For the loop and needle (I've just been using a pipet + pipet tip and mixing with sterile beads whenever I do some type of innoc), I think the needle is just for more finer work, but they basically do the same thing: pick up colonies and used for spreading- so your mentor is actually right in that one is loop-shaped and one is a needle. Just in case these things come up again 🙂
In the future though, the buffer needs to go in before the enzyme (not necessarily the same time, you just need the buffer in your mixture before the enzyme) so your enzyme does not denature. For the loop and needle (I've just been using a pipet + pipet tip and mixing with sterile beads whenever I do some type of innoc), I think the needle is just for more finer work, but they basically do the same thing: pick up colonies and used for spreading- so your mentor is actually right in that one is loop-shaped and one is a needle. Just in case these things come up again 🙂
Thanks for the insight guys. I let him know that I wouldn't be attending his lab anymore, and he wrote me a fairly nice letter explaining that he was sorry he disrespected me and was hopeful that I learned something. I did. I was assigned to this guy after letting my department know I would be interested in a certain type of research. I am going to switch labs, but I just wanted some input about how PI's were in general. To be honest this experience has left a bad taste in my mouth as far as scientists go, but I would hate to jump to conclusions. I was wondering if this is how a majority were. As demanding as science and medicine are, I don't think anyone should have to put up with disrespectful behavior. This is reminiscent of the bad PR that science sometimes gets because some lack the people skills to explain fully what they mean. The so called "Ivory tower" effect. I am over it at this point, but I just wanted some insight to what I'm getting into.Thanks.
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Even outside of the Ivory Tower sort of institution, you are definitely going to be disrespected again in medicine and in science by those with equal, more, or less experience than you. In science and medicine you will bump egos frequently, and there's no getting past that.
In your case, you're an undergraduate who is looking for basic experience, and so this is probably the only time you'll get to walk for your own benefit and without consequence. Best learn how to deal with this type of personality soon. You will definitely see this again; they may have a different name and a different face, but it's essentially the same person. You can learn from anyone.
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Lol, sounds like my first research experience when I was in UG. Sounds like my first year of graduate schoo, too...*sigh* Yeah, if you want to get into research, you're going to need a thick skin. I really, really thick one. They don't tell you that in UG.
There are so many personalities/egos in science. If your personality and your PI's personality don't mix, your relationship will suck. If the dynamic of your relationship sucks...the research will suffer. I know students who would thrive off being belittled and challenged. I know students who would prolly be real assertive with a PI like that. I also know students who'd probably run off and cry somewhere. So, get in where you fit in. Every PI isn't like that, but just gotta hunt for the one who'll understand your working habits and know when to push you as well as how hard to push you.
There are so many personalities/egos in science. If your personality and your PI's personality don't mix, your relationship will suck. If the dynamic of your relationship sucks...the research will suffer. I know students who would thrive off being belittled and challenged. I know students who would prolly be real assertive with a PI like that. I also know students who'd probably run off and cry somewhere. So, get in where you fit in. Every PI isn't like that, but just gotta hunt for the one who'll understand your working habits and know when to push you as well as how hard to push you.
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So true...smh.
I'm going to try out some more labs, which is a shame because I did like the research, however I won't bicker every day about techniques that were incorrectly explained. I am a bit ambivalent now, this type of personality seems a bit counterproductive. It seems that some get off on acting in a way that requires a 'thick skin' initiation, at least that's the feeling I get. It also seems that people are missing my point. I am not really complaining but trying to evaluate how prevalent these sorts are. I do take it lightly and laughed bit which probably didn't help.
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Every PI is different. There are many eccentric personalities in the sciences. Having said that, all of my PIs have been very nice normal guys. Just gotta find someone who works for you!
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every PI i've been in contact with has been courteous, understanding and very friendly. When I read how your PI talked to you I was pretty shocked... There's no way I'd stand for that. Not only is it vulgar, but it's unprofessional too. Some here will tell you to get over it but frankly I think that particular PI (and others like him) need a reality check.
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Unfortunately, there are no prevalence data on malignant personalities in the sciences. In my experience, these types of people have been in the minority. Most people I encountered were generally polite, professional, and helpful. There were certainly some that I learned to avoid.
A sign of a poor teacher is when the individual cannot assess and teach to the understanding of the learner. You will unfortunately see many poor examples of teaching in science (and medicine). However, there are good scientific teachers out there, though those people may be few and far between.
From what I observed during my PhD years, there is a somewhat self-driven learner philosophy among scientists. My advice for you going forward is try to read ahead on what you will be doing so that you have at least a rough idea of the procedure prior to doing it. Always start with background reading on whatever you are doing. Make sure you understand the steps. If not, then ask questions. There are certainly many people who can help you--it is your job to seek them out. Post-docs and technicians in the lab are a good first resource. People from other labs with expertise in the procedure you are doing can help. Generally, I have found that PIs (particularly the more senior ones) are often less helpful on the specific day-to-day operations of the lab, but much more helpful on "big picture" type questions, experimental design and analysis, and figuring out what the next step should be. Therefore, it is important to seek out the "right" person to answer your given question.
Hope this helps and good luck in finding a new lab! 🙂
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I noticed this when I was looking at the profs at my institute. With better personalities there was a tendency for more undergraduates/graduates students working in the PIs lab.
OMG that is SO TRUE!! And shame on you for not posting this 3 years ago - it might have clued me in that if it was just the PI and me (as a first semester freshman!) it might not have been the most promising lab to be in!
One of my more cynical professors recently said (basically) that most people will treat you like crap until you have an MD or a PhD or both and you just have to smile and deal with it until you, too, have a union card and can start treating people like crap. On some level I think that's true - though fortunately I have also been very lucky to get really good PI's also.
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Welcome to life as a med student. And as a resident.
A lot of attendings that you'll encounter in med school are much ruder and much more brusque than that lab advisor was. It's quite common to have attendings walk away from you while you're talking, talk to you as if you're a child, and (even in this day and age) physically assault med students and residents. This is to say nothing of the nurses that you'll be working with!
Thick skin is quite necessary, and now is as good a time as any to learn it.
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I'm glad to hear someone else say this. The op seems to make it sound like the related offenses are limited to just academics or researchers. Rude/condescending behavior is absolutely not restricted to academics, research, or PhD. I think the stories related so far are very mild and minor compared to what I have personally experienced in both the research and clinical realms.
I'm AMAZED this person received a letter of apology or indeed any apology at all. IMO, that is actually a really nice PI or attending who would apologize for that sort of behavior. Most would say they had done nothing wrong and chastize you in return. I would absolutely never report an attending (in med school or residency) for these behaviors unless you want your grades to suffer or be kicked out of residency.
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True beyond words. I think the best type of mentors that I've had are those who are either too busy to worry about what I'm doing at all or who assign me to a grad/post-doc and never hear back from them again. One of the best ways to sniff out a bad mentor is by listening to him talk about others. If he bad-mouths his colleagues or his own grad students/post-docs - then get out while you can.... Also look up the mentor's profile to see who else he/she has mentored. If there is a rash of people who worked for him/her but left after a year or so without having completed a project, then it may be that the mentor is not very supportive.
In the end, there's really no way to deal with these people than by having a thick skin. Enjoy your undergrad years while you can since you can switch labs easily. Once you go through school and become a resident/fellow/post-doc, you're pretty much going to be stuck with them. If it's any consolation - those who act like your mentor are probably insecure and about to get the boot themselves, therefore, they are abusive and take out their frustrations on others.
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Yep, that sounds about right. Medicine in general is not a laid back profession and unfortunately, there are going to be people who are under a lot of pressure to perform and prove themselves. You're PI's attitude, although not encouraging, isn't actually that bad compared to what you'll have to deal with once you graduate and work or become a resident. The key is to be able to maintain your calm and composure no matter how obnoxiously other behave. I think that's one of the most important interpersonal skills that you can learn.
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Would that were true. I have both degrees and in 2 weeks will have completed the bulk (>90%) of my clinical training and still get routinely treated like crap. I'm pretty much over it though and am able to write it up to insecure d-bags at all levels. I get crap from interns on other services (as a fellow), all the way up to division/dept chiefs. It's just the way of the world.
On the upside, those experiences are the minority and my post-doc research mentor, division chief, PD and research collaborators (including surgeons, pathologists and radiologists) are all respectful of my knowledge/experience.
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being in a small liberal arts college, i haven't seen too many (actually only one) PI's with this kind of unpleasant attitude. mine, for instance, didn't even yell at me when i accidentally discarded half of the extract from plant roots which gave essentally less than 0.02% yield. however, on the downside, he never goes over specific procedures with me while expects me to research about protocols, propose to him, and even order the stuff i need.
i think my philosophy is you're probably ok if 1) you are not kicked out of their lab, 2) you can potentially have your name on publication, 3) your PI has enough funding, 4) you are actually LEARNING the science.
i think my philosophy is you're probably ok if 1) you are not kicked out of their lab, 2) you can potentially have your name on publication, 3) your PI has enough funding, 4) you are actually LEARNING the science.
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This post by Vader is something you should DEFINITELY stick to.
Reading up on procedures and experiments beforehand will give you some background knowledge, which can help you make sense of the explanations.
Lab technicians / grad students often (not always but often) have a longer fuse (is that the term?) and don't get annoyed as fast if you have questions / need help wit the procedures (they can still remember their undergrad times).
As most have said before, get used to not being treated gently by colleagues, superiors, PIs and so on. Your previous PI may have not been nice, but there are nicer PIs out there (it's just not alwys easy to find them), but also worse PIs (nothing's more awkward than a PI's rage that results in them throwing lab equipment at you).
Get a thick skin and you'll come to enjoy research! 🙂
I have come to beleive that I do operate in real life, and people do not generally act this way. Therefore I can scratch this notion that perhaps I just am over-reacting. In retrospect, this guy did pretty much everything wrong that I can see short of throwing things (temper tantrums, swearing up and down, ignoring my questions, not even in the lab half the time, ect...). My learning was not proportional to my thick-skin earning points. If it had been I probably would have stayed.In truth what I was looking for from this post was a signal that this is generally how all PI's operate. If so then I needed to recheck if I wanted to be part of that world. Thankfully this has not been the case, and I'm thankful for the variety in the responses. Very cool.
R
Red Leader
What I want to know is what PI actually freaking teaches you the techniques him/herself?????? I have never witnessed this. Actually to be fair, I witnessed this ONCE and that was when the PI brought her son in to do a simple high school experiment then left. That's the ONLY TIME I'VE SEEN THIS PI IN LAB TO DO AN EXPERIMENT LOL.
Other times were to give lab tours to company execs and what not, but seriously, if your PI has time to teach you techniques he's got too much time to spare.
Back on topic, dude some people are just that way. Maybe he had bad days or didn't get a grant or something. Although not excuses to treat you like crap, I guess its up to you to either (a) take it or (b) change labs. Best of luck.
Other times were to give lab tours to company execs and what not, but seriously, if your PI has time to teach you techniques he's got too much time to spare.
Back on topic, dude some people are just that way. Maybe he had bad days or didn't get a grant or something. Although not excuses to treat you like crap, I guess its up to you to either (a) take it or (b) change labs. Best of luck.
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both my PIs to date have been patient enough to sit down and teach me techniques... and re-teach. both were also understanding enough when experiments didn't work the first two or three times and its not like their labs were brand new or they were just bored. i think this "thick skin" business is kind of bologna - if a PI treats you like crap, well, go find another lab... especially if you're free labor 🙂 There are plenty of great labs and great PIs out there.
maybe in medicine it will be a little different, and its more understandable since more is at stake, but you should never have to deal with 4+ years of taking bs from a guy you work for - especially since you're helping advance his lab's standing by publishing papers and the like.
R
Red Leader
You know what? I will probably thank you for this in the future if I am lucky enough to be accepted into MD-PhD programs. I was just kind of planning to sit there and take the beatings gritting my teeth through 4 years, but I can always choose a better PI. My current PI is a saint...I just need to find another one.
