Normal to fail 25% to half of class on exams during second year?

[libraryismyhome]

---

Members do not see this ad.

My school is a md, midtier school.

Is this normal or my school is taking it too far?
By the end of second year about 10 students have to repeat their second yr...


How about teaching drugs that are not going to be tested on step1? Not on FA book, lange pharm cards, picmonic, uworld and etc....

 

[WedgeDawg]

1. Pretty sure that's not normal

2. I think that's normal. You're trying to become a doctor, right? Step 1 isn't end-all-be-all for useful clinical knowledge.

 

[sloop]

It is not normal to fail that much of the class in a U.S. school. That would be highly abnormal.

Regarding testing esoteric drugs in pharm, it depends. It's fairly normal to test a few drugs that are less commonly known (but still may show up on step, just unlikely) in order to differentiate the people who really mastered the subject vs others (who gets honors, etc.) The vast majority should still be bread and butter though and this should not be a reason half the class fails.

 

[Mad Jack]

My school is a md, mistier school.

Is this normal or my school is taking it too far?
By the end of second year about 10 students have to repeat their second yr...


How about teaching drugs that are not going to be tested on step1? Not on FA book, lange pharm cards, picmonic, uworld and etc....

1- Not normal.
2- Normal.

 

[Goro]

This is not normal, and definitely says something about the faculty, NOT the students.

How do you know what's going to be on Step I????? First Aid is a terrible source, and is still riddled with errors. At best, it's the barest minimum you should know.

My school is a md, mistier school.

Is this normal or my school is taking it too far?
By the end of second year about 10 students have to repeat their second yr...


How about teaching drugs that are not going to be tested on step1? Not on FA book, lange pharm cards, picmonic, uworld and etc....

 

[Mad Jack]

This is not normal, and definitely says something about the faculty, NOT the students.

How do you know what's going to be on Step I????? First Aid is a terrible source, and is still riddled with errors. At best, it's the barest minimum you should know.

The combination of Lange, UWorld, and First Aid does cover most of the bases pharm-wise though. I wouldn't say FA is terrible- it's just not the best sole source of information.

 

[Goro]

True! Unfortunately, my own student tend to view FA as if it's the Revealed Word from the Almighty, which drives us faculty up the wall!

The combination of Lange, UWorld, and First Aid does cover most of the bases pharm-wise though. I wouldn't say FA is terrible- it's just not the best sole source of information.

 

[sinombre]

This is not normal, and definitely says something about the faculty, NOT the students.

How do you know what's going to be on Step I????? First Aid is a terrible source, and is still riddled with errors. At best, it's the barest minimum you should know.

As someone who took the test last June, I don't think FA is a terrible source for step 1 at all. FA and UWorld are probably the two best sources that exist. And there are errors in FA, but they publish corrections for free every year:

http://www.firstaidteam.com/wp-content/uploads/FAS12015ErrataToPublish0608152.pdf

 

[sinombre]

True! Unfortunately, my own student tend to view FA as if it's the Revealed Word from the Almighty, which drives us faculty up the wall!

I can see how this would be frustrating. Hopefully they understand it's not all-inclusive.

 

[Goro]

But the problem with FA is that they keep on publishing corrections! You'd think that they would have gotten it right by now. I have a higher opinion of Uworld and the Becker Step I review books.

As someone who took the test last June, I don't think FA is a terrible source for step 1 at all. FA and UWorld are probably the two best sources that exist. And there are errors in FA, but they publish corrections for free every year:

http://www.firstaidteam.com/wp-content/uploads/FAS12015ErrataToPublish0608152.pdf

 

[Psai]

FA is written by medical students who took step 1. If I recall correctly, it's different people every year. So of course there are going to be corrections to be made. It's a review book for students by students, not a textbook. I think it's an excellent resource

 

[asdf123g]

How do students have the time to read an entire review book (ex: FA) and then also cross study using another like Uworld?? thats absurd...

 

[Stagg737]

How do students have the time to read an entire review book (ex: FA) and then also cross study using another like Uworld?? thats absurd...

The amount of info you learn in med school as a whole is absurd, and residency is even more absurd. Welcome to the medical profession...

 

[libraryismyhome]

okay. so it's not normal.

How about 10 students failing and having to repeat second year each ear out of 120?

 

[medic86]

okay. so it's not normal.

How about 10 students failing and having to repeat second year each ear out of 120?

Sounds like you go to a ****ty school?

 

[futuremdforme]

okay. so it's not normal.

How about 10 students failing and having to repeat second year each ear out of 120?

That's insane and not normal.

 

[hamstergang]

okay. so it's not normal.

How about 10 students failing and having to repeat second year each ear out of 120?

Didn't you just acknowledge that many told you it was abnormal already? What are you asking now?

 

[Entadus]

okay. so it's not normal.

How about 10 students failing and having to repeat second year each ear out of 120?

That's crazy. How many students (M4's) at your school fail to match in a given year?

 

[libraryismyhome]

That's crazy. How many students (M4's) at your school fail to match in a given year?

1 or 2
surprisingly my school's match list is quiet solid for a midtier.

Plenty of Ivy primary cares, handful of top tier middle level programs (gen surgery in chicago, EM in stanford), ROADs, Rad oncs in Yale, Plastics
almost zero community residencies, (if fam med --> washington, california, MGH, our school's program) which is good for the bottom dwellers as well

 

[Redpancreas]

I am sorry you are frustrated by your curriculum and while the complaints you listed don't seem to be very common at all, I think all schools have students complain about lack of correlations to step 1 and nitpicky details. At my school, we learn a lot of the "latest" stuff that's not on step one yet and a lot of clinical pearls that may not be tested on step 1.


For the 25% failing an exam, we regularly have something similar occur for a notoriously difficult exam every year and then we had it happen again for a recently introduced exam covering a lot of information clinical medicine that we had to go do an official computer exam for (previously it was a take home with a due date). Besides that, we have not come close to those kinds of numbers refularly. When this situation did occur for the notoriously difficult exam the guaranteed pass at our school is 75% and the average was like a 71% so a majority of our class failed to hit a guaranteed pass and a significant number failed to hit the "buffer pass" which was a 70%

What they did was an analysis on the questions, found the ones the highest scorers had the highest variability on (some gunners answered A others B, others C) and used other methods to throw certain questions out. After this, everyone's scores increased and the average was a 79 which equated to a normally difficult exam. Everyone I know is still in med school with me but we have a big class. I am on curriculum committee at my school and at one meeting it was reported that approximately 6-10 students failed anatomy out of 300. From there on, I would assume that the failure rate would be much lower.


As for 91.7% pass rate for first year that you are reporting...I don't know...doesn't seem disastrous but still seems kind of low. In our class, we have a lower. rate and one factor is using a program called student "modification".

In this system, administration seeks out students who are at a high risk of failing their anatomy or histology (first series of classes) midway through the courses. (Example is if they scored 50% on their 1st of 4 equally weighted exams). They ask them them why they are failing and if they'd be interested in avoiding a failure on their transcript. If it's because of the burden and students say they'd do a lot better if they could focus on one course, they then are given the option to modify by taking two years to complete the first year curriculum and then take one course at a time. I initially thought that it seemed like a short term fix because what happens to the students when they get to second year material and have to do even more work? However, according to the data at our school, a majority of students who modify evolve and avoid future academic failures. Some even get better at it and many of those who modified did so for family or personal reasons, not academic ones so they were actually good student s in the firsT place.


So, as a long answer to your question, neither of those are normal and I suggest you first speak with your curriculum committee reps and then student senate. Curriculum committee reps will then bring up the issues with whoever is the associate dean of your basic sciences curriculum. He or she will then address it at the next curriculum committee meeting and hopefully they'll start realizing the need to change things. Honestly though, the course director is normally required to report course performance statistics (% honor, fail, etc.). However, it's still important to get student support because any wise medical school knows that an unhappy student body can be catastrophic to admissions.

What may help is holding a public forum on this issue or finding some way to gather secure (so no one can vote 10000x) quantative feedback before you make these moves.

Lastly, I am pretty sure the LCME takes student satisfaction very seriously and this sort of thing will not sit well with them at your next inspection so it is in the best interest of your school to do what is necessary sooner than later.


Hope this gets resolved!!

 

[Redpancreas]

1 or 2
surprisingly my school's match list is quiet solid for a midtier.

Plenty of Ivy primary cares, handful of top tier middle level programs (gen surgery in chicago, EM in stanford), ROADs, Rad oncs in Yale, Plastics
almost zero community residencies, (if fam med --> washington, california, MGH, our school's program) which is good for the bottom dwellers as well

Well then rest assured that students powered through and that your program is effective.
ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS find a mentor at your school who is older who you can rely on to guide you through the process. Ask them what resources are best. They can tell you which resources complement the school curriculum the best and are most realistic to use in your given time frame...something no one else on SDN can do.


Good luck!

 

[Redpancreas]

How do students have the time to read an entire review book (ex: FA) and then also cross study using another like Uworld?? thats absurd...

At our school we have a program called Step Prep where this Chief Resident works hard to prepare weekly sessions that cover high yield step material in first aid. She then also created that annotated Uworld into first aid so it becomes easier for us. for myself, my classes correlate with first aid but just in a different order. Therefore I take notes in first aid and whenim done i read the first aid print as well as my notes.

 

[sliceofbread136]

This is not normal, and definitely says something about the faculty, NOT the students.

How do you know what's going to be on Step I????? First Aid is a terrible source, and is still riddled with errors. At best, it's the barest minimum you should know.

Incorrect. FA is by far the best step 1 source there is and by simply memorizing this one source you are likely to score above 245 atleast

 

[Kaustikos]

How do students have the time to read an entire review book (ex: FA) and then also cross study using another like Uworld?? thats absurd...

You must be joking. Uworld and FA isn't "difficult" to go through. If your school has nbme shelf exams, you'll find the material way easier to manage.
But seriously: If you study early enough, you'll be fine.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

 

[ortnakas]

Our faculty sent out a we-are-very-concerned email when ~5% of my second-year class failed the last block exam. 25-50% seems problematic.

 

[asdf123g]

You must be joking. Uworld and FA isn't "difficult" to go through. If your school has nbme shelf exams, you'll find the material way easier to manage.
But seriously: If you study early enough, you'll be fine.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

now im basing this solely off of my MCAT prep. It took me FOREVER to read all of the books and learn it all. I cant imagine doing that in like a month with harder material and more volume. (I know its probably longer than a month but its difficult to study when you're also gotta study for your classes/not fail). Again, just relating this back to my mcat experience.

 

[67552931811]

now im basing this solely off of my MCAT prep. It took me FOREVER to read all of the books and learn it all. I cant imagine doing that in like a month with harder material and more volume. (I know its probably longer than a month but its difficult to study when you're also gotta study for your classes/not fail). Again, just relating this back to my mcat experience.

Don't stress dude. You'll be fine. The first week is hell but you adjust quickly

 

[moisne]

end of second year about 10 students have to repeat their second yr.

we had about 1.5% of our class repeat first year. probably about 1% second year.

FA as if it's the Revealed Word from the Almighty, which drives us faculty up the wall!

FA is Step 1 Bible... lol

How do students have the time to read an entire review book (ex: FA) and then also cross study using another like Uworld?? thats absurd...

ROFL - If ONLY that was ALL I needed to do. It's more like FA, UWORLD, +/- other Qbanks (Kaplan, Firecracker, Rx), pathoma, Goljan, BRS... etc etc. I have a bunch of resources but don't have time to use them all.

 

[Kaustikos]

now im basing this solely off of my MCAT prep. It took me FOREVER to read all of the books and learn it all. I cant imagine doing that in like a month with harder material and more volume. (I know its probably longer than a month but its difficult to study when you're also gotta study for your classes/not fail). Again, just relating this back to my mcat experience.

Well, once you get into second year, you'll see. It may seem impossible but your first two years do help.

we had about 1.5% of our class repeat first year. probably about 1% second year.


FA is Step 1 Bible... lol

ROFL - If ONLY that was ALL I needed to do. It's more like FA, UWORLD, +/- other Qbanks (Kaplan, Firecracker, Rx), pathoma, Goljan, BRS... etc etc. I have a bunch of resources but don't have time to use them all.

Pathoma definitely helped. And Microbiology Made Simple. In the end, I was prepared for the exam after my second year finals.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

 

[asdf123g]

we had about 1.5% of our class repeat first year. probably about 1% second year.


FA is Step 1 Bible... lol

ROFL - If ONLY that was ALL I needed to do. It's more like FA, UWORLD, +/- other Qbanks (Kaplan, Firecracker, Rx), pathoma, Goljan, BRS... etc etc. I have a bunch of resources but don't have time to use them all.

How does one decide between all of these study resources??

 

[repititionition]

1 or 2
surprisingly my school's match list is quiet solid for a midtier.

Plenty of Ivy primary cares, handful of top tier middle level programs (gen surgery in chicago, EM in stanford), ROADs, Rad oncs in Yale, Plastics
almost zero community residencies, (if fam med --> washington, california, MGH, our school's program) which is good for the bottom dwellers as well

MGH *famously* does not have a family medicine program.

 

[moisne]

How does one decide between all of these study resources??

Now I think you are just being sarcastic lol.

 

[asdf123g]

Now I think you are just being sarcastic lol.

No im serious. Do you just stick to one or two and just go with it? For me its like going to a restaurant and given a 20 page menu. For the MCAT I tried using berkleys review and examkrackers but that was a massive fail. Ended up just picking ONE resource and managing much better.

 

[moisne]

No im serious. Do you just stick to one or two and just go with it? For me its like going to a restaurant and given a 20 page menu. For the MCAT I tried using berkleys review and examkrackers but that was a massive fail. Ended up just picking ONE resource and managing much better.

Think of it as an international Buffet. You go to India station for .... lamb (I don't know), America for cheesecake, China for wontons, etc.

Different resources are better for certain things than other. You just try a bit and hope for the best - because everyone is different. You WILL figure it out - sink or swim :/

 

[asdf123g]

Think of it as an international Buffet. You go to India station for .... lamb (I don't know), America for cheesecake, China for wontons, etc.

Different resources are better for certain things than other. You just try a bit and hope for the best - because everyone is different. You WILL figure it out - sink or swim :/

well crap. Is that something im supposed to find out on my own thru trial and error, research heavily on SDN (where there will be a million different opinions), or rely on upperclassmen?

 

[moisne]

Worry about it after you get in. What is the rate? 97-98% passing rate? chances are you will figure it out then.

well crap. Is that something im supposed to find out on my own thru trial and error, research heavily on SDN (where there will be a million different opinions), or rely on upperclassmen?

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

First Aid is a terrible source, and is still riddled with errors. At best, it's the barest minimum you should know.

FA is definitely a review book, not a teaching book, but I would not go as far to say it is a terrible source.

In my experience people who say FA is a terrible source are either a medical genius or a gunner, and the former is much less common.

 

[libraryismyhome]

MGH *famously* does not have a family medicine program.

oh my bad. must be bwh or beth israel then.

 

[Stagg737]

Our faculty sent out a we-are-very-concerned email when ~5% of my second-year class failed the last block exam. 25-50% seems problematic.

Our school is different. I'd say a good percentage of people fail each exam before the curve. Our current tests are also pretty ridiculous in comparison to other schools from what people at other schools I've talked to have said though. So I think it depends far more on what the tests are actually like and not so much the class average.

well crap. Is that something im supposed to find out on my own thru trial and error, research heavily on SDN (where there will be a million different opinions), or rely on upperclassmen?

Things I've generally heard/will be using:

Overall notes: FA
Physio: BRS physio
Anatomy: Cadaver lab (idk what else, I'm solid here).
Path: Pathoma + Robbins review book
Micro: Clinical Micro Made Ridiculously Easy + Sketchy
Pharm: Sketchy + Brosencephalon's deck (+ something else, still need to research this though, I'm open to suggestions)
QBanks: Kaplan + UWorld (+ USMLERx if I have time)

 

[asdf123g]

@Stagg737 is this what one would use to study for step I/comlex or what one would use thruought their 1st two years?

 

[masaraksh]

Things I've generally heard/will be using:

Overall notes: FA
Physio: BRS physio
Anatomy: Cadaver lab (idk what else, I'm solid here).
Path: Pathoma + Robbins review book
Micro: Clinical Micro Made Ridiculously Easy + Sketchy
Pharm: Sketchy + Brosencephalon's deck (+ something else, still need to research this though, I'm open to suggestions)
QBanks: Kaplan + UWorld (+ USMLERx if I have time)

Damn, that looks strong. I have some of the same sources, but overall a little less intensive. I'm ideally hoping to break 240. Interested in IM (with a strong hope of matcing at academic centers, big city), if I end up liking surgery on rotations, then ortho is up there, and radiology (again ideally on the coasts).

My plan is:
- also to use FA, its just a good comprehensive review. i do hate the interspersed BS forced mnemonics
- been going through some of the brosencephalon deck with classes, it basically like reviewing first aid, but it forces you to recall shyt instead of flipping pages and saying 'yeah, i knmow that'
- Pathoma plus maybe skimming Rapid Review
- Not planning on using a book for physio
- Microbio - sketchy micro & FA chapter
- Pharm - first aid and potentially the becker pharm book I have.
- Qbanks - Uworld and as much of USMLERx as I can get through during classes.

I also got some Lange biochem and genetics flashcards which I'll skim over winter break to see if I want to use them for review during dedicated study.

 

[W19]

True! Unfortunately, my own student tend to view FA as if it's the Revealed Word from the Almighty, which drives us faculty up the wall!

It is dude... FA along with Lippincott's Q&A and Pretest (yeah freaking pretest) are getting me A and B in med school....

 

[masaraksh]

@W19 I've never even heard of Lippincott's Q&A. Guess we can't all be as smart and good with patients as nurses

 

[Stagg737]

@Stagg737 is this what one would use to study for step I/comlex or what one would use thruought their 1st two years?

It depends on the curriculum. My school is systems based and hits every system focusing on anatomy and physio hard first year. Then we do every system again second year focusing on path and pharm along with clinical applications. First year is foundation, so I used BRS phys a lot along with a little bit of FA. Our path textbook is big Robbins, so I watch the relevant pathoma vids, read those chapters, then use Robbins review for questions.

I'm not starting real board studying until after winter break, and will start true 'dedicated' time in April, since our school basically ends at the end of April for boards studying (I'll take them either end of June or mid-July).

As for the rest of the materials, I plan on going through all of them second semester of second year. BRS and FA just for the review, video resources to solidify/build the foundation up again for path and Pharm, then purely Qbanks for dedicated study time. I'd like to do around 7,500 questions by the time I take boards, so spring will be rough, lol.

 

[W19]

View attachment 197991

@W19 I've never even heard of Lippincott's Q&A. Guess we can't all be as smart and good with patients as nurses

Lol... There are Lippincott's Q&A in most subjects... The pathology and pharm are good IMO...

 

[masaraksh]

Lol... There are Lippincott's Q&A in most subjects... The pathology and pharm are good IMO... My class have them on dropbox

surprised you can just keep copyrighted material like that on a class dropbox

 

[masaraksh]

It depends on the curriculum. My school is systems based and hits every system focusing on anatomy and physio hard first year. Then we do every system again second year focusing on path and pharm along with clinical applications. First year is foundation, so I used BRS phys a lot along with a little bit of FA. Our path textbook is big Robbins, so I watch the relevant pathoma vids, read those chapters, then use Robbins review for questions.

I'm not starting real board studying until after winter break, and will start true 'dedicated' time in April, since our school basically ends at the end of April for boards studying (I'll take them either end of June or mid-July).

As for the rest of the materials, I plan on going through all of them second semester of second year. BRS and FA just for the review, video resources to solidify/build the foundation up again for path and Pharm, then purely Qbanks for dedicated study time. I'd like to do around 7,500 questions by the time I take boards, so spring will be rough, lol.

Damn, you're still a good bit away. Basically 6 months out! And damn, you get 2mo for dedicated, Our school only gives 6wks. I was seeing someone this summer and she said her school has to take boards around April of M2. The schools with 1.5yr curriculum have even less time. I think you should be sitting pretty if you get through 7,500qs.


With UWORLD, which I read is approx 2000qs, I think I can get through it in 2.5wks doing about 150q per day + reviewing questions. Then hope to do a 2nd pass on questions I marked or got wrong.

 

[Stagg737]

Damn, you're still a good bit away. Basically 6 months out! And damn, you get 2mo for dedicated, Our school only gives 6wks. I was seeing someone this summer and she said her school has to take boards around April of M2. The schools with 1.5yr curriculum have even less time. I think you should be sitting pretty if you get through 7,500qs.


With UWORLD, which I read is approx 2000qs, I think I can get through it in 2.5wks doing about 150q per day + reviewing questions. Then hope to do a 2nd pass on questions I marked or got wrong.

Yea, our class is the first one with a new curriculum and it focuses really heavily on boards, so hopefully ours will be really solid. Admin also doesn't see a reason for us to take boards earlier when we can just use the extra couple weeks for dedicated time, which is nice. I really don't see us doing poorly, but we'll have to wait and see.

Between Kaplan (free for us) and UWorld I'll have access to around 5,500-6,000 questions, so I'm not sure if I want to buy USMLERX or just make a second pass on my weak points. At this point though I'm just trying to get foundations of path down so I have an actual strategy going into next semester.

 

[masaraksh]

Yea, our class is the first one with a new curriculum and it focuses really heavily on boards, so hopefully ours will be really solid. Admin also doesn't see a reason for us to take boards earlier when we can just use the extra couple weeks for dedicated time, which is nice. I really don't see us doing poorly, but we'll have to wait and see.

Between Kaplan (free for us) and UWorld I'll have access to around 5,500-6,000 questions, so I'm not sure if I want to buy USMLERX or just make a second pass on my weak points. At this point though I'm just trying to get foundations of path down so I have an actual strategy going into next semester.

That sounds like a good plan. Is your goal basically as high a score as possible?

 

[Stagg737]

That sounds like a good plan. Is your goal basically as high a score as possible?

Pretty much. My goals are 240+ USMLE and 600+ COMLEX, though I'd be happy with a 230+ and 540+, and satisfied being above average. I'm fairly interested in several areas, so I'd just like to keep my options open as much as possible.