Not doing a residency?

[Shredder]

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Is anyone contemplating the notion of not doing a residency? If anybody can fathom that, what are you thinking of doing instead? Or even if you're not contemplating it, have you heard of ppl who haven't, and what they have done? It's assumed that graduating med students will go on to residency, but you're not required to. Since I'm pondering not doing one, I'm wondering how much match lists matter.

Flameshield: ON

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Why go to medical school? What are your future plans?

 

[CTSballer11]

Is anyone contemplating the notion of not doing a residency? If anybody can fathom that, what are you thinking of doing instead? Or even if you're not contemplating it, have you heard of ppl who haven't, and what they have done? It's assumed that graduating med students will go on to residency, but you're not required to. Since I'm pondering not doing one, I'm wondering how much match lists matter.

Flameshield: ON

Before I came here on SDN I was looking to follow my family's path and go into medicine (in my family a surgical specialty is a must). I am keeping the notion of not doing a residency in the back of my head thanks to you. I am interested in finding an answer to your question about people who have passed up residency and went into the business aspect of medicine. As far as match lists go; a few of the docs in my family have told me that great schools do not produce great match lists. There students produce those match lists. Usually the brightest attend Harvard, Johns Hopkins, etc, and they most likely will do well on there boards, and ace their rotations, thus they tend to match into more of the competetive specialties. If you look at the schools that are below the top 20, there match lists are very similiar. The point I am trying to make is that medical school is what you make of it. if you do well on your boards etc, you will match into your field of choice. Harvard and Johns Hopkins are not the only schools producing derms or plastic surgeons. What specialty are you interested in?

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Why would someone hire an unlicensed MD over a person with a Master's of Business Administration or a Master's of Health Services Management to handle the business aspects of medicine? The MD degree prepares you for clinical medicine not business or administration. Medical school will not give you any experience in the business side of medicine. It seems you would be disadvantaged for a number of positions -- or are you looking to follow your MD up with one of these business related master's degrees? I'm curious as to where you see yourself going with the MD in business when you're fresh out of medical school. Seems to me the options would be limited.

 

[SOUNDMAN]

You can still be licensed. However I believe you must do atleast an internship year, and you'd just be a GP. There are a few in my town here, I don't know how good a docs they are, but none the less. Sometimes it may be difficult to get credentials in a hospital though.

 

[Sundarban1]

I know a few MDs working in pharmaceutical companies who are not licensed, but make BIG CHIPs and never have to see a patient.

 

[jbrice1639]

Why would someone hire an unlicensed MD over a person with a Master's of Business Administration or a Master's of Health Services Management to handle the business aspects of medicine? The MD degree prepares you for clinical medicine not business or administration. Medical school will not give you any experience in the business side of medicine. It seems you would be disadvantaged for a number of positions -- or are you looking to follow your MD up with one of these business related master's degrees? I'm curious as to where you see yourself going with the MD in business when you're fresh out of medical school. Seems to me the options would be limited.

i believe we're talking about people doing the MD/MBA programs and then going straight into the administrative side of medicine rather than going through a few years of residency and postponing a hospital administration career even further.

 

[keitaiKT]

I know one non-trad who didn't do a residency after finishing medical school. She went on to work for a non-profit doing health policy.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I know a few MDs working in pharmaceutical companies who are not licensed, but make BIG CHIPs and never have to see a patient.

Are these MDs doing research?

 

[Sundarban1]

Are these MDs doing research?

One works for Bristol-Myers in global drug marketing, clinical trials development, etc. and her husband works for pfizer in drug development. So yes, they are involved in research in some respect. However, they obviously are not PI's putting patients on trials, etc. There are so many avenues in the pharmceutical arena. I disagree with what another poster said about having limited options if you do not do a residency. If you have ever worked for or with a pharmaceutical company you will see a lot of doctors who dont see patients involved in some kind of research. All depends on what you want to do.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

i would say that this is definitely not something to bring up with adcoms. 🙂 as for going to medical school and not doing a residency, i'm just wondering if there is some easier, cheaper, less time consuming path to get to where you want to be. i do know people who didn't do residencies and do other things, but that was never their plan for the outset. generally, these are people who discovered they hated medical school and didn't want to be doctors.

talk to people who work on the business side of pharmaceutical and health care companies and see if that md is really worth the time and money, or if you would be better suited getting some work experience and then going for a prestigious mba in a few years.

 

[beponychick]

Yes Shredder, Im considering not doing a residency program as well. Im planning on doing an MD/JD and im not certain which route I will eventually end up going. I know several people who have MDs and did not complete residencies. Its not that uncommon.

 

[obgyny]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm looking forward to residency. Who needs sleep anyway? 🙂

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Yes Shredder, Im considering not doing a residency program as well. Im planning on doing an MD/JD and im not certain which route I will eventually end up going. I know several people who have MDs and did not complete residencies. Its not that uncommon.

does that md do anything for you in the md/jd situation, though? i had a professor in law school who had an md and didn't do a residency, and he did do medical litigation work. but, i really doubt the md was that helpful to him. i also knew a few md's in law school, and yeah, the md was sort of a plus in their job search, but again, it probably wasn't a big enough plus to merit the four years and $100k+ expenses of medical school. in fact, the rn i knew in law school interviewed for and got similar jobs to the md's.

i guess the big issue is how you're paying for the md. if your parents are fudning it, then it doesn't have to be as valuable than it would be if you were funding it through loans.

 

[Sundarban1]

generally, these are people who discovered they hated medical school and didn't want to be doctors.

I don't think this is true for the general population of those who do not do residencies. To say most of the people who don't do residencies hated medical school is just untrue. You learn that there are other options and go from there.

 

[Nakhrewali]

As a health management grad student who wishes she could dabble in every aspect of medicine--academics, research, health education/prevention/outreach, hospital management--I think it's probably a good idea to perhaps do a residency. It may not be that common for those folks who join the pharmaceutical arena but I think it's important for hospital management. How would you be able to understand the logistics of patient care without ever caring for a patient? If you ever attend a meeting of hospital admins it's interesting to see how the practicing physicians clash with the MBAs who are all about pinching pennies left and right. I think a MD/MBA or MD/MHA or MD/MPH is absolutely essential if you want to have a comprehensive outlook on hospital administration. I think the same could be said for health care consulting as well. I've come in contact with several CEOs of hospitals in the NY area through ACHE (American College of Healthcare Executives), and they all highlight the importance of doing a residency. They got to where they are because of their experiences.

Shredder, I thought of not doing a residency and going into something business-related, but the course of my studies have taught me that physicians are usually concerned with patient care. Something that is learned first-hand through direct patient contact. As for possible careers without residencies--the opportunities are endless...

I agree with the above posters though--if you don't want to do the residency, be sure not to tell the Ad Coms. 😉

 

[Shredder]

wow thanks for the input guys, i wasnt sure if it would draw any commentary. good to see im not totally alone. im not strongly opposed to doing a residency, but as an aspiring md/mba, i dont see myself in an eventual position where practicing medicine is the primary focus of my career, if at all. its just not the best use of a dual degree, same with md/jds and md/phds. sure, one could simply lead two professional lives and split the time, but that doesnt exactly embody the concept of synergy. its almost like with a dual degree, any practicing you do comes at a high cost since the same could be done by any other doc, no? i guess that is the crux of my argument here. the opportunity cost of residency and practicing. if one is not planning on combining any degrees, then the situation gets muddled.

i do plan on completing a year of internship for a license, bc i hear without that youre not much of a doc--very little patient experience and cant even prescribe! im interested in big pharma, biotech, and VC as possible career options, entrepreneurship and intl biz even. but i do frequently wonder if med is the best route to take. i find med interesting, and im good at it, plus im not cut out for a phd. the debt is irrelevant; im confident i promptly will make up for it. 4 years of med school isnt too worrisome either, as most other career tracks also require some down payment. but 7-10 yrs with residency? thats a decent chunk of life, in prime years too. i wish adcoms would be more open minded about the prospects of non-residential(?) docs.

 

[gujuDoc]

I know one non-trad who didn't do a residency after finishing medical school. She went on to work for a non-profit doing health policy.

I'd like to point out that some MD's, in particular those who do MD/JDs are sometimes people not getting their MD for the purposes of practicing clinical medicine but to gain a better understanding of healthcare and things of that nature for when they have things like malpractice cases and what not. There are quite a few people like that out there. There are also people who get the MD for better understanding of healthcare, so they can have better understanding in political affairs if they choose to do something like healthpolicy.

That said, irregardless of what your future plans are, you might not want to make obvious to any adcom that you are contemplating not doing clinical medicine, because that might hurt your chances a tons.

 

[Shredder]

thanks to you.

What specialty are you interested in?

ah, dont put this responsibility on my shoulders!

ha...im thinking about pathology, if anything. seems interesting to me, and it might have more applications in pharma or biotech

 

[Shredder]

That said, irregardless of what your future plans are, you might not want to make obvious to any adcom that you are contemplating not doing clinical medicine, because that might hurt your chances a tons.

yeah, thats really unfortunate. i think they should respect other perspectives on medicine. it would make it much less burdensome for dual degree candidates especially. its at least a little silly having to say, "im going to do this and this, and this, AND maintain a bustling clinical practice on the side"

haha...best example of non residential doc. harvard med, baby. now this, i suspect, wouldnt fly with the harvard adcom

 

[CTSballer11]

ah, dont put this responsibility on my shoulders!

ha...im thinking about pathology, if anything. seems interesting to me, and it might have more applications in pharma or biotech

LOL, I just always thought that one had to pursue a specialty after medical school. Now I know better. 😎

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I'd like to point out that some MD's, in particular those who do MD/JDs are sometimes people not getting their MD for the purposes of practicing clinical medicine but to gain a better understanding of healthcare and things of that nature for when they have things like malpractice cases and what not. There are quite a few people like that out there. There are also people who get the MD for better understanding of healthcare, so they can have better understanding in political affairs if they choose to do something like healthpolicy.

That said, irregardless of what your future plans are, you might not want to make obvious to any adcom that you are contemplating not doing clinical medicine, because that might hurt your chances a tons.

i guess i'm still confused because i wonder how necessary an md is to understand healthcare from a policy, business or legal perspective. as a person who has a jd that i'm not using in the traditional sense, i can say that a jd is not a necessary prerequisite for having a good understanding of legal/policy/whatever issues. i just can't see how an md would be that different. i can see it for research but for policy or business work, i think it would be superfluous, unless, of course, you need it just to get hired or promoted. i guess i'm not a big fan of credentialism for its own sake.

even if debt is not an issue, you've got to consider the opportunity cost from both an economic and personal perspective of devoting four years of your life to something that could possibly be only marginally important in your career. also, yeah, if a residency is necessary, there goes another 3+ years.

i don't know. the best sources of info are people who are doing what you want to do, which probably isn't anybody at sdn. all i can say is that from my personal experience, it doesn't generally make sense to intend to take an indirect path somewhere -- it might happen, but i wouldn't make it my goal

 

[Faust]

Fear and a deep personal insecurity guides the decision to pursue an MD knowing that one is not going to finish it. Stop overachieving and trying to compensate.

Go to a business school that has a flexible program that allows you to branch out into health policy, health administration, and health law (all you need is one good class in all these disciplines and the rest is up to your ability to see what others do not see). To excell in the medical business field you need to understand the relationship between medicine, business, health policy, economics, and health law. Medicine will not teach you that. BEing versed in scientific language and having a keen understanding of human nature will suffice. Human nature as it relates to competitive behavior, greed, and success, not human nature as it relates to suffering and disease.

Good luck. Take some time off bro you seem really lost and confused and starting to sound very irrational...

 

[shantster]

Is anyone contemplating the notion of not doing a residency? If anybody can fathom that, what are you thinking of doing instead? Or even if you're not contemplating it, have you heard of ppl who haven't, and what they have done? It's assumed that graduating med students will go on to residency, but you're not required to. Since I'm pondering not doing one, I'm wondering how much match lists matter.

Flameshield: ON

The PI of the lab that I worked at this summer did an MD/PhD but did not complete residency.

 

[Shredder]

http://www.gene.com/gene/careers/medicaldirector.pdf
Genentech--something to check out for those who are thinking, "biotech? what, not full time clinical medicine?"

Fear and a deep personal insecurity guides the decision to pursue an MD knowing that one is not going to finish it. Stop overachieving and trying to compensate.

who says "finishing" an md means completing a residency? is one not an md upon graduating from medical school?

speaking of michael crichton, what would you have to say about this contention: the guy, in spite of his non traditional use of his medical education, has done more for medicine through the show ER than anybody else from his graduating class. he has inspired millions of premeds and enlightened millions more laymen about the day to day goings on of medicine. thoughts? he also inspired many cop offs: chicago hope, greys anatomy, house md

 

[skypilot]

There is a large subset of docs that never complete a residency and the ADCOMS are very interested in. The MD PhDs! Personally I wouldn't want to add an extra 5 years onto my MD though. 🙂

I think you will change your mind about residency once you are in med school. You can always do a shorter residency with less heavy lifting like Psychiatry. Then you would have a great background for any health policy or business and still have street credibility.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

There is a large subset of docs that never complete a residency and the ADCOMS are very interested in. The MD PhDs! Personally I wouldn't want to add an extra 5 years onto my MD though. 🙂

Most MD PhDs complete residencies. Also, it takes an additional 3-4 years on average. It took me 7.5 years to get an MD-PhD.