Not hearing from program

[peerie]

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I had a quick question about not hearing back from a program you are interested in. I know everyone is super busy and all, but if a program sends out lots of cards and emails and the residents send cards and whatever, should you assume that they "like" you?

What if you specifically tell the program 'I like you' and would like to ask some questions, but then you never hear back from people you email?

I sent several emails and heard back from one person. That person said to keep in touch. Well, I am trying! I would assume that there isn't much interest in me from this program since residents have not responded to my inquiries. Oh well, I tried.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I tried to express my interest and have basically gotten no meaningful response. 🙁

 

[Law2Doc]

I had a quick question about not hearing back from a program you are interested in. I know everyone is super busy and all, but if a program sends out lots of cards and emails and the residents send cards and whatever, should you assume that they "like" you?

What if you specifically tell the program 'I like you' and would like to ask some questions, but then you never hear back from people you email?

I sent several emails and heard back from one person. That person said to keep in touch. Well, I am trying! I would assume that there isn't much interest in me from this program since residents have not responded to my inquiries. Oh well, I tried.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I tried to express my interest and have basically gotten no meaningful response. 🙁

I would chill out. There are communication rules in place that make some programs limit what they say and do, despite the fact that what you are suggesting wouldn't be against the rules. So many programs will remain mute. Most programs want to hear that you are interested, but aren't going to reciprocate -- you will send an email and never hear back -- that is really the norm. Go on a second look if you want to talk to someone about specific issues at a program as well as demonstrate your interest further. But don't hold your breath for "meaningful responses". The rules prevent meaningful responses, just fluff.

 

[Ludicolo]

Peerie,

Every year residency hopefuls send their cards and letters and emails and phone calls of intent to programs stating that they will rank them #1, or rank them highly. If a program hears back from 10 applicants that they will rank them #1, it makes them feel warm and fuzzy and secure. But it doesn’t mean that they will rank these applicants 1-10.

Reverse the situation. You have interviewed at multiple programs. You have learned what you like, what environments you would thrive in. If you hear back favorably from a program that really impressed you, you feel good and it reinforces your decision to rank them highly. Which you would have done anyway. If you hear back from a program that, for you, was mediocre at best, and they tell you that they plan on ranking you highly, is it really going to influence your decision that much? And realize, for the reasons Law2Doc mentioned, most programs are not going to send you anything.

That being said - if you are asking a program a reasonable, specific question about their program, and they don't respond, this might be an indication of how receptive they will be to your concerns during residency. I would take that into consideration and rank them accordingly. But in rereading your post, it appears you simply asked them in a general way if you could ask some questions. You can address this with a second look, or perhaps if you just asked the questions directly you would get a response.

I fully understand this is a stressful time. Serenity now!

 

[Law2Doc]

...But in rereading your post, it appears you simply asked them in a general way if you could ask some questions. You can address this with a second look, or perhaps if you just asked the questions directly you would get a response....

Also if you simply have questions and are less concerned about showing interest to the PD, I would shoot an email to a resident -- an alumnus from your school, the person who gave you the tour, someone you met at the "talk to the residents" section of the interview day or pre-interview dinner. They will more likely be regular users of email and will often give you a quick answer. But the fact that you made an inquiry might not get back to the PD.

 

[Doowai]

I had a quick question about not hearing back from a program you are interested in. I know everyone is super busy and all, but if a program sends out lots of cards and emails and the residents send cards and whatever, should you assume that they "like" you?

What if you specifically tell the program 'I like you' and would like to ask some questions, but then you never hear back from people you email?

I sent several emails and heard back from one person. That person said to keep in touch. Well, I am trying! I would assume that there isn't much interest in me from this program since residents have not responded to my inquiries. Oh well, I tried.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I tried to express my interest and have basically gotten no meaningful response. 🙁

Last year when I prematched I had several programs (PD's included) who regularly corresponded with me - sometimes in excess of 10 emails back and forth on all sorts of topics. This year, as I go through the match again, I have had much less correspondance and responses.

I am not sure lack of correspondance is a bad thing but it certainly is not a good thing

 

[peerie]

"Serenity now!" That is so awesome, thank you. 👍

Well, I did have specific questions that I asked a few residents about. I was careful to ask clear and simple things about the program in my emails. These were people I had met the day I visited and so they 'knew' me I guess.

The thing that most concerns me is that their lack of response might be indicating a deeper lack of cohesion in the program. In general, this program has been slow to respond to emails even with the PC. I would like to rank this program highly but this lack of response to emails concerns me. It's really ok if they didn't like me and don't want to rank me, but I guess I felt confused because they kept telling to me email and call with questions, and yet when I did didn't heard back.

Oh, well. 🙁

 

[Cholinergic]

Also if you simply have questions and are less concerned about showing interest to the PD, I would shoot an email to a resident -- an alumnus from your school, the person who gave you the tour, someone you met at the "talk to the residents" section of the interview day or pre-interview dinner. They will more likely be regular users of email and will often give you a quick answer. But the fact that you made an inquiry might not get back to the PD.

I could not even get a response from the alumnus from my school at one place. 🙄 I know I've said this before, but programs don't realize that the interest level of the residents is important too.

I e-mailed a letter of interest to one program and also asked about a 2nd look. Didn't hear back from them. Of course, I'm assuming the worst, but I still plan to rank them where I want them because you never know. I am NOT ranking based on romancing from program directors.

 

[MrBling]

The thing that most concerns me is that their lack of response might be indicating a deeper lack of cohesion in the program. In general, this program has been slow to respond to emails even with the PC. I would like to rank this program highly but this lack of response to emails concerns me. It's really ok if they didn't like me and don't want to rank me, but I guess I felt confused because they kept telling to me email and call with questions, and yet when I did didn't heard back.

Oh, well. 🙁

Is it me, or are the dynamics and insecurities inherent with the match processes awfully similar to dating?

 

[Law2Doc]

Is it me, or are the dynamics and insecurities inherent with the match processes awfully similar to dating?

Seriously. Pre-teen dating at that. Folks are practically getting their friends to pass notes during homeroom to find out if program XYZ likes them.

Just pick the programs you like the best and rank them highest. Not hearing back from them that the feeling is mutual is the norm. No reason to worry about it. If they don't want you, there are a lot of other fish in the sea. 🙂 They're just not that into you.

 

[peerie]

I am thinking I want to lower this program on my list because basically, if the residents can't be bothered to reply to simple emails - what does that say about my working relationship with them in the future? And, is it them or is it something in the program?

Do I want to be somewhere where this is ok? That's all I'm saying.

And yes, it sure is like dating. But not in a good way. 😉

 

[peerie]

ok, so here's another thing:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=367836

I looked through the threads googled onto the bottom of the page and this one is perfect! Perfect I tell you. It is like I wrote it myself - only two years ago. Awesome! I feel better and will keep the silent program where it is. Or, maybe I will move it ...

 

[Babycatcher2B]

Do programs worry as much as not hearing back from an applicant as much as applicants worry about not hearing back from programs?

 

[Ludicolo]

Do programs worry as much as not hearing back from an applicant as much as applicants worry about not hearing back from programs?

Can't speak for all programs, but we don't lose any sleep over it.

 

[Law2Doc]

Do programs worry as much as not hearing back from an applicant as much as applicants worry about not hearing back from programs?

You have to keep in mind the numbers involved. You probably are going to rank a dozen programs and have your heart set on 1. The programs are perhaps going to interview several hundred applicants, and have their heart set on 6, but would be fine with the next 50. So no, they probably aren't stressing as much as the applicants.

 

[dragonfly99]

You have to keep in mind the numbers involved. You probably are going to rank a dozen programs and have your heart set on 1. The programs are perhaps going to interview several hundred applicants, and have their heart set on 6, but would be fine with the next 50. So no, they probably aren't stressing as much as the applicants.

I agree with this. Most programs know they will fill. Applicants, on the other hand, don't know that they will get a program that they actually like (unless they are competitive applicants to noncompetitive specialties). Programs that tend to actively recruit are fp/Im/psych/peds, especially the middle or lower tier places. The only phone call I got from a PD was during IM residency application, and it was at a place I'd interviewed, had a geographic connection to, and it was an OK residency but certainly wouldn't have been high on my list. The PD just left me a voicemail basically telling me how much they would like to have me there, etc. He didn't say where they would rank me b/c that would be an NRMP violation but he basically was laying it on pretty thick, to the point that I strongly suspected I could definitely get in there. But this is for IM and they need maybe 30 people/year at a lot of programs, and for places like that (i.e. not a cushy hospital and was U program but more of an inner city place) they need to recruit to fill well. If you are going for a more competitive specialty and/or the hospital has just decided it doesn't communicate heavily with applicants, it wouldn't be uncommon not to get a lot of correspondence or calls (or any, even).

 

[smq123]

The PD just left me a voicemail basically telling me how much they would like to have me there, etc. He didn't say where they would rank me b/c that would be an NRMP violation but he basically was laying it on pretty thick, to the point that I strongly suspected I could definitely get in there.

That IS an NRMP violation? There was a brief discussion about that in the OB forum, and the consensus was that they can TELL you where they are going to rank you, you just can't ASK them to tell you. But programs telling you where they will rank you is also a Match violation?

 

[mcl]

That IS an NRMP violation? There was a brief discussion about that in the OB forum, and the consensus was that they can TELL you where they are going to rank you, you just can't ASK them to tell you. But programs telling you where they will rank you is also a Match violation?

Either side can volunteer information, which may or may not be believed by the recipient. Programs cannot ask where they fall on an applicant's ROL and cannot offer a quid-pro-quo agreement (we will rank you to match if you rank us first). It's a slippery slope and most programs are conservative in their communications with applicants so as not to imply a promise.

 

[BobA]

Either side can volunteer information, which may or may not be believed by the recipient. Programs cannot ask where they fall on an applicant's ROL and cannot offer a quid-pro-quo agreement (we will rank you to match if you rank us first). It's a slippery slope and most programs are conservative in their communications with applicants so as not to imply a promise.

Really? Almost every program asked me about this in at least a round-a-bout sort of way. After I told them how much I liked their program they would say "where else are you looking?"

I only bother posting about it because it was totally annoying. As though they were asking me to lie to them. I didn't really have a ROL while I was interviewing - I waited until I was done to do that. It was tempting to say "There's no where else I'm seriously considering" - that was the position I felt put it. But I couldn't do that. I hate this game. For any PD's who are reading this - I automatically disliked PD's when they asked me this question because I felt put in an untenable situation.

 

[Law2Doc]

Really? Almost every program asked me about this in at least a round-a-bout sort of way. After I told them how much I liked their program they would say "where else are you looking?"

I only bother posting about it because it was totally annoying. As though they were asking me to lie to them. I didn't really have a ROL while I was interviewing - I waited until I was done to do that. It was tempting to say "There's no where else I'm seriously considering" - that was the position I felt put it. But I couldn't do that. I hate this game. For any PD's who are reading this - I automatically disliked PD's when they asked me this question because I felt put in an untenable situation.

Assuming we are talking the allo match: They can ask you where else you are looking, and that is not a violation. That is actually quite common -- to ask folks on interview day where else they interviewed. They just can't ask you where you are ranking them with respect to other programs or vice versa. They can voluntarilly tell you they are ranking you highly and you are allowed to do the same, but there cannot be any arrangement to do this. Most programs will play it closer to the vest and simply say fluff about how much they liked meeting you, etc.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Really? Almost every program asked me about this in at least a round-a-bout sort of way. After I told them how much I liked their program they would say "where else are you looking?"

I only bother posting about it because it was totally annoying. As though they were asking me to lie to them. I didn't really have a ROL while I was interviewing - I waited until I was done to do that. It was tempting to say "There's no where else I'm seriously considering" - that was the position I felt put it. But I couldn't do that. I hate this game. For any PD's who are reading this - I automatically disliked PD's when they asked me this question because I felt put in an untenable situation.

I would not have considered that question a "round-about way" of asking you how you were ranking them.

Asking where else you're looking is valuable information - if you are looking at all Southern programs and you interview at my snowy NE program, I might wonder what's the draw? If your interview list is filled with top tier, high falutin' places, I might wonder why my little hospital?

So perhaps in a round-about way we are looking into what's important to you, but IMHO they aren't trying to get you to discuss how you're ranking places, just what sort of programs you're looking at. And sometimes the question is even just a conversation "filler". I think you're reading too much into it.

 

[mcl]

Really? Almost every program asked me about this in at least a round-a-bout sort of way. After I told them how much I liked their program they would say "where else are you looking?"

"Where else are you looking?" during an interview is not the same as "Where are you placing our program on your ROL?" I suppose that applicants who aren't prepared for the first question might feel somewhat taken aback or annoyed, but it's really harmless. The answers will often direct the course of the conversation--for example, if the programs you mention are known for their research, the interviewer might ask if this is an area of interest for you and (if so) start talking about research potential at their program.

 

[dragonfly99]

"Where else are you looking?" during an interview is not the same as "Where are you placing our program on your ROL?" I suppose that applicants who aren't prepared for the first question might feel somewhat taken aback or annoyed, but it's really harmless. The answers will often direct the course of the conversation--for example, if the programs you mention are known for their research, the interviewer might ask if this is an area of interest for you and (if so) start talking about research potential at their program.

I agree that "Where else are you looking?" is not a Match violation by the programs, but I found that was not asked much on IM interviews. Perhaps it was asked occasionally in passing, but a vague general response seemed to satisfy them (i.e. academic programs in the South). For cards interviews, it was asked at all but the most competitive places (they seemed not to care as much). The interviewer was often taking down notes and repeatedly asking, "OK. What other programs?" until he felt he had gotten the complete list. Given this, I think that it was definitely an attempt to guess where they might rank on my list, and compare/contrast the competitiveness of all the other places I was interviewing vs. their program, and probably to assess how competitive a candidate I was. I found this line of questioning to be much more common at the weaker programs, and found it annoying. They should have been spending the time asking about my accomplishments, what I could add to their program, and what I was looking for in a program, rather than giving me the 3rd degree and asking how many interviews I was going on, and asking for a list of those other programs...very WEAK IMHO.
Not coincidentally, I chose to rank #1 one of the few programs that seemed interested in me, and interested in selling their program rather than trying to "game" the Match or manipulate the candidates.

 

[predodoc]

I agree that "Where else are you looking?" is not a Match violation by the programs, but I found that was not asked much on IM interviews. Perhaps it was asked occasionally in passing, but a vague general response seemed to satisfy them (i.e. academic programs in the South). For cards interviews, it was asked at all but the most competitive places (they seemed not to care as much). The interviewer was often taking down notes and repeatedly asking, "OK. What other programs?" until he felt he had gotten the complete list. Given this, I think that it was definitely an attempt to guess where they might rank on my list, and compare/contrast the competitiveness of all the other places I was interviewing vs. their program, and probably to assess how competitive a candidate I was. I found this line of questioning to be much more common at the weaker programs, and found it annoying. They should have been spending the time asking about my accomplishments, what I could add to their program, and what I was looking for in a program, rather than giving me the 3rd degree and asking how many interviews I was going on, and asking for a list of those other programs...very WEAK IMHO.
Not coincidentally, I chose to rank #1 one of the few programs that seemed interested in me, and interested in selling their program rather than trying to "game" the Match or manipulate the candidates.

A few programs also asked me these questions. It sometimes make me think they have some kind of communication with eachother about you.

 

[umass rower]

I agree that "Where else are you looking?" is not a Match violation by the programs, but I found that was not asked much on IM interviews.

I only got asked the question once in applying to Peds. It was at my home institution, and it was because the program director was legitimately curious. He has a standing offer to all students here to call up PDs at our top choices if we want him to.