Not to be a downer..but student loan debt?

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PhatHippo49

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I know this is probably the last thing anyone wants to think about while we are anxiously awaiting admissions decisions, but I've been in a bit of funk today dwelling on the issue of student loans.

From what I've been reading, it seems that the hope of paying back students loans while earning enough income to make a decent living is pretty bleak. I'm not looking to live a wealthy lifestyle, or even own a house, but I would like to know that investing my energy in veterinary school for four years while accumulating $200,000 in debt is going to be worth it. I love veterinary medicine, and I couldn't see myself doing anything else. But is this career choice going to put me in a position to be struggling too much to potentially start a family some day? I just don't see how paying back all that money is possible with the low income of veterinarians.

I know there are IBR (income based repayment) plans that allow you to pay 10% of your income for 10 or 25 years, and then the rest is forgiven. However, if you don't work a public service job, the forgiven amount is still taxable, so there's a huge tax bill with your name on it 25 years down the road (which could be well around $100,000).

Again, I'm not looking to make bank, nor do I think anyone choosing to be a veterinarian for the money is remotely a good idea. Hell, I'd be fine making minimum wage as a veterinarian, but I'm just wrestling with the fear that even a minimum wage paying job may be more financially comfortable.

Anyone else feel the same way? Or am I being too pessimistic?

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I'm pretty much in the same boat. Luckily I've managed to not accrue much debt from undergrad, but I am really dreading the debt from vet school, particularly as I've been rejected from my IS and am pretty much gearing up for a maximum amount of debt. Glad to hear you've started this thread, would love to hear from people who have graduated and are dealing with it or just others thoughts. I must say, I am definitely planning on NOT marrying another vet! :p I met a young vet couple once that were collectively in about half a million of debt, ouch.
 
I know this is probably the last thing anyone wants to think about while we are anxiously awaiting admissions decisions, but I've been in a bit of funk today dwelling on the issue of student loans.

From what I've been reading, it seems that the hope of paying back students loans while earning enough income to make a decent living is pretty bleak. I'm not looking to live a wealthy lifestyle, or even own a house, but I would like to know that investing my energy in veterinary school for four years while accumulating $200,000 in debt is going to be worth it. I love veterinary medicine, and I couldn't see myself doing anything else. But is this career choice going to put me in a position to be struggling too much to potentially start a family some day? I just don't see how paying back all that money is possible with the low income of veterinarians.

I know there are IBR (income based repayment) plans that allow you to pay 10% of your income for 10 or 25 years, and then the rest is forgiven. However, if you don't work a public service job, the forgiven amount is still taxable, so there's a huge tax bill with your name on it 25 years down the road (which could be well around $100,000).

Again, I'm not looking to make bank, nor do I think anyone choosing to be a veterinarian for the money is remotely a good idea. Hell, I'd be fine making minimum wage as a veterinarian, but I'm just wrestling with the fear that even a minimum wage paying job may be more financially comfortable.

Anyone else feel the same way? Or am I being too pessimistic?
That's definitely a major issue these days. Especially paying OOS or private tuition.

I accepted a job I'm not super happy with so I could be assured I would gave the income to pay off debt and not have it ganging over my head. The starting salary was above the national average and I'm pretty comfortable making payments. That said, I really dislike my job. I also fix my best during school to keep my debt at a minimum
 
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I think it's important to consider the geographic location and area of interest in vet med. for example, in nj the starting salary for vets going into sa private practice is much higher than the national average. Recent grads at the practice I am working at started at 70k base + commission. If you dedicate about a third of your salary towards loan repayment your first year, you are still left with roughly a 45k annual salary... Not glorious but certainly not bad and definitely live able. It's common practice here for your base to remain stagnant but commission to increase over time from say 10 to 15 to 20% of your total sales. I know this salary seems terrible compared to human medicine, and you aren't going to get rich but at least in NJ, I am confident that I will be able to live comfortably. Every state is different though... Obv you'll do better in metropolitan areas.
 
you might want to use the search function.... we have had some very good discussions on this issue in the past.

Searching pre-vet for debt returns ALL these...

  1. Is the debt manageable?
    ...so that would be 36k a year (144k) in addition to my undergrad debt leaves me with around 200k debt. I am eligible for FASFA and I know I can live...
    Thread by: livestockdream, Mar 1, 2013, 1 replies, in forum: Pre-Veterinary
  2. Veterinary student debt continues to climb
    vin.com
    Thread by: VET 2008, Feb 10, 2012, 91 replies, in forum: Pre-Veterinary
  3. Student debt relief option: Instant gain, distant pain
    LongLink @ forums.studentdoctor.net... vin.com http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/feb12/120201a.asp
    Thread by: VET 2008, Feb 10, 2012, 141 replies, in forum: Pre-Veterinary
  4. Debt deal screws grad students
    ...cutting all subsidized student loans for grad students in the recent debt deal, yet the Repubs refuse to make corporations (who are posting RECORD...
    Thread by: PocoCalypsoQH, Aug 2, 2011, 3 replies, in forum: Pre-Veterinary
  5. Vet school debt while newly married and newborn?
  6. Advice on Keeping Debt Low
  7. Average Veterinary Technician debt?
  8. Vet School Student Debt out of control?
 
I think it's important to consider the geographic location and area of interest in vet med. for example, in nj the starting salary for vets going into sa private practice is much higher than the national average. Recent grads at the practice I am working at started at 70k base + commission. If you dedicate about a third of your salary towards loan repayment your first year, you are still left with roughly a 45k annual salary... Not glorious but certainly not bad and definitely live able. It's common practice here for your base to remain stagnant but commission to increase over time from say 10 to 15 to 20% of your total sales. I know this salary seems terrible compared to human medicine, and you aren't going to get rich but at least in NJ, I am confident that I will be able to live comfortably. Every state is different though... Obv you'll do better in metropolitan areas.
Don't forget taxes when you do this sort of thinking
 
Don't forget taxes when you do this sort of thinking
Yup, the loan payments come out before taxes and then you are left with a 45k "salary" without taxes taken out yet. That's live able - at least for me it is.
 
Yup, the loan payments come out before taxes and then you are left with a 45k "salary" without taxes taken out yet. That's live able - at least for me it is.
Just to clarify for others. Paying off loans is tax deductible to a degree. But don't forget that if you make 70k you are likely in a higher tax bracket too
 
I think it's important to consider the geographic location and area of interest in vet med. for example, in nj the starting salary for vets going into sa private practice is much higher than the national average. Recent grads at the practice I am working at started at 70k base + commission. If you dedicate about a third of your salary towards loan repayment your first year, you are still left with roughly a 45k annual salary... Not glorious but certainly not bad and definitely live able. It's common practice here for your base to remain stagnant but commission to increase over time from say 10 to 15 to 20% of your total sales. I know this salary seems terrible compared to human medicine, and you aren't going to get rich but at least in NJ, I am confident that I will be able to live comfortably. Every state is different though... Obv you'll do better in metropolitan areas.
Same thing here in the NYC area. We do, however, have a very high cost of living, so it kinda balances itself out. Here, the average 1 bedroom apt's rent will run you $1,200 or more. Factor in loan repayments, taxes, other bills, and savings/investments, and you're not looking at much leftover.

Most recent grads I've spoken to, in my area, say they're not that bad off, but have to live "within their means". Some even have two jobs. And most either live with their parents, or are married to someone who brings home most of the bacon. They make it work, which gives me hope.
 
I quite honestly wouldn't go into the field if I had to take on as much debt as the average student, as bad as that sounds. I'm lucky and have the GI bill covering 3/4 of my years of school, but even the debt from undergrad and that first year freaks me out a little bit - I absolutely DO NOT like the idea of being so much in the hole. Thank goodness for an SO who is willing to foot the bills for the first year or two out while I aggressively pay it down. It's a ridiculous situation in the US, to have to take so much debt out to get a degree that pays so little.
 
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The numbers are terrible. Job prospects aren't good. Banfield and VCA are taking over the world. And more vet schools keep opening, and more people keep applying to them.

If you want to pursue what you love and make money doing it, you're going to have to be a strong, creative, business-minded entrepreneur. That's the conclusion I've come to.

Or, take out your loans, get a decent job, and get used to living with a net gain of ~$3-4,000 take-home money a month. Keep in mind, that's $3-4,000 to pay mortgage, bills, insurance, food, etc. It's good enough for me since I've always lived low-middle income. But I know that this is beggar's money to some of my wealthier classmates. Marrying someone with decent income is a good strategy.
 
FWIW, I think the first 5-10 years will be the hardest part.... I don't think it is a life-long sentence.
These things are cyclical, and just when this group of vets is getting to their peak earnings years, things should probably start to turn around.
A fair amount of older vets will be moving out of the business, the corporate consolidations will probably end, a stronger economy will increase the pie.
So hang in there is my advice.

Vet med will be lagging the rest of the economy for a while, but there should be some payoff in the end.

So there you have it, the optimistic SOV.
 
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Keep in mind, that's $3-4,000 to pay mortgage, bills, insurance, food, etc. It's good enough for me since I've always lived low-middle income. But I know that this is beggar's money to some of my wealthier classmates.

This is like an insane amount of money to me... considering I was living off a vet tech salary before.... this is going to make me feel like I struck it rich (even though I know it is a very low amount of money). Also, I won't do a mortgage for the first few years out.... apartments or rent a house, helps to save some money.
 
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This is like an insane amount of money to me... considering I was living off a vet tech salary before.... this is going to make me feel like I struck it rich (even though I know it is a very low amount of money). Also, I won't do a mortgage for the first few years out.... apartments or rent a house, helps to save some money.
yes and no. mortgage in my area is much cheaper than renting in my area (at least when I bought). The payments are about ~$400 less per month and a much more reasonable interest rate than student loans.
 
I think we all worry about the debt load on different levels - I doubt anyone really doesn't care unless their expenses are completely covered by an outside source.

I'm fortunate to not have any other debt, but my tuition is a lot higher than most schools OOS. Fortunately, my husband has a solid job in a field with good prospects, makes decent money and has no debt of his own. We've agreed that he'll carry the financial burden of cost-of-living (mortgage, bills, etc) in the early years and I'll contribute by making the groceries into something edible, etc ;) Once I start making a decent salary, I'll be able to chip in more. Not going to lie: I'd be a lot more nervous about it if I didn't have him beside me. Either way, I'll be looking to minimize my spending (which I try to do while in school) in the earlier years until I get a bit more paid down.
 
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yes and no. mortgage in my area is much cheaper than renting in my area (at least when I bought). The payments are about ~$400 less per month and a much more reasonable interest rate than student loans.

Yeah, it really does depend on where you live. In AZ (where I will hopefully be), renting can be cheaper, same as or more expensive than mortgage. Usually renting is a bit cheaper and you don't have to worry about repairing things that break, but if you can get a good interest rate on a mortgage that could end up being similar in cost to renting or a little bit cheaper. So it just depends. I will just look for the cheapest option when that time comes.
 
Same thing here in the NYC area. We do, however, have a very high cost of living, so it kinda balances itself out. Here, the average 1 bedroom apt's rent will run you $1,200 or more. Factor in loan repayments, taxes, other bills, and savings/investments, and you're not looking at much leftover.

Most recent grads I've spoken to, in my area, say they're not that bad off, but have to live "within their means". Some even have two jobs. And most either live with their parents, or are married to someone who brings home most of the bacon. They make it work, which gives me hope.

A friend of mine was offered an internship in NYC years ago. They offered her 25k. To live in NYC.

This just strikes me as sad. We shouldn't have to be doing that at our age. I feel sorry for the parents.
 
A friend of mine was offered an internship in NYC years ago. They offered her 25k. To live in NYC.

This just strikes me as sad. We shouldn't have to be doing that at our age. I feel sorry for the parents.

Wow. With roommates, and low expectations, she can make it work, but that's not a lot to live and play on around here.

And yes, it is sad. One of my single vet friends owns a home in an affluent town, but she works two jobs and has very little student loan debt because her parents were able to be generous. Most of us don't have this luxury :(
 
Wow. With roommates, and low expectations, she can make it work, but that's not a lot to live and play on around here.
(

Recently I was pretty depressed wondering when I would ever be able to afford living without roommates (Nevermind owning my own place)... Only way to ever do that for me and live comfortably is to live with an SO and have a second income. That's pretty sad :( I don't need to be rich or anything, but it would be nice to have my own kitchen and bathroom one day, and not have to worry about keeping up with a revolving door of strangers to live with. Don't get me wrong, I've met some lifelong friends this way, but it's not how I want to spend the prime of my life. Well, here's to hoping it works out with my current SO.
 
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This is like an insane amount of money to me... considering I was living off a vet tech salary before.... this is going to make me feel like I struck it rich (even though I know it is a very low amount of money). Also, I won't do a mortgage for the first few years out.... apartments or rent a house, helps to save some money.
Agreed - this is an insane amount of money to me as well ever since I quit my job in a different field 3 yrs ago and started working as a vet tech while taking classes. I can't imagine having $3 to 4k a month. Even at my old job I wasn't taking home that much working in back office on Wall Street and I made it work easily living with one roommate in manhattan... I think it must all be relative to what you're accustomed to!
 
I make half of the 3-4k a month for living expenses... I have no idea what I would do with even another $500, let alone double. I would actually be able to pay off hospital bills. And save. Wow.

ETA: off topic, sorry guys. I'm drugged d/t the pneumonia and was fantasizing :)
 
Where do you all live?? $36,000 - $48,000/year is beggar's money for a typical person living in a metropolitan area, which is where a large number of professionals live (because it tends to be one of the few places that can sustain vet medicine) and which is the general trend of human migration:
- Let's say you live in a typical metro area where your own basic studio or 1bed/1bath will cost at least $1000. Since $1200 was quoted above and the market has changed since I last looked, let's say $1200. So, take that out, and you've got $1800-$2800/month.
- You have the basic living expenses that must be paid: gas, electric, internet, water, trash = let's say it averages $200-300/month (these are figures I remember from renting in a metro area).
- Now, let's say it costs about $150-200/person for food.
- Now, let's say you pump a full tank twice a month; with a metro area avg of gas at ~ $3.60/gallon for a typical sedan of about 13 gallons = $90-100/month. Keep in mind, I'm assuming you already have a car lol.
- ^because you have said car, you need insurance: ~$200-300/month
- and, of course, you have animals. Let's say you're being relatively thrifty and only have one dog or two cats or whatever. Typically, I find that people spend about $50/month on their animals.
Taking the low end of my estimates, I come out with a net balance of $1,110-2,110.

Now, these are numbers for just the bare bones "I just need to live and sustain myself here in the present" conditions. What happens if there's an emergency? We are all very aware that an emergency for our beloved pets can easily dip into the $1000s. Heck, what about your health insurance?? How about investing? You need to invest. But how much are you going to invest and in what? Ideally, I'd like to invest in real estate in major metro areas... uh, yeah, that ain't happenin' with a net takehome of $1-2K. PFFT. What if you decide to have children? What about buying things that you've always enjoyed but wanted to "wait until you made money"? From my estimates and assuming you're a diligent person putting your money into investing, you're probably going to have to "wait" a little more. Or be really really good about saving up.

You could live outside a metro area and not have as such high estimates. But your monthly takehome is probably going to drop significantly to about $2000-3000. These are just based on the numbers I've seen in recent job ads. So, take what you will. That's how I've worked out the logic in my head. Maybe some of my numbers are wrong, but the overall picture is pretty grim for new vet grads.

Edit: Mortgage v. renting. As far as I've learned from financial gurus, it is almost always preferable to buy a home. And from what I've seen in terms of monthly mortgage v. rent in my areas, it is almost always cheaper to buy a home and pay mortgage. So why do so many people rent? Because nobody has enough money to pay the down payment, haha. SIGH. Money...
 
Where do you all live?? $36,000 - $48,000/year is beggar's money for a typical person living in a metropolitan area, which is where a large number of professionals live (because it tends to be one of the few places that can sustain vet medicine) and which is the general trend of human migration:
- Let's say you live in a typical metro area where your own basic studio or 1bed/1bath will cost at least $1000. Since $1200 was quoted above and the market has changed since I last looked, let's say $1200. So, take that out, and you've got $1800-$2800/month.
- You have the basic living expenses that must be paid: gas, electric, internet, water, trash = let's say it averages $200-300/month (these are figures I remember from renting in a metro area).
- Now, let's say it costs about $150-200/person for food.
- Now, let's say you pump a full tank twice a month; with a metro area avg of gas at ~ $3.60/gallon for a typical sedan of about 13 gallons = $90-100/month. Keep in mind, I'm assuming you already have a car lol.
- ^because you have said car, you need insurance: ~$200-300/month
- and, of course, you have animals. Let's say you're being relatively thrifty and only have one dog or two cats or whatever. Typically, I find that people spend about $50/month on their animals.
Taking the low end of my estimates, I come out with a net balance of $1,110-2,110.

Now, these are numbers for just the bare bones "I just need to live and sustain myself here in the present" conditions. What happens if there's an emergency? We are all very aware that an emergency for our beloved pets can easily dip into the $1000s. Heck, what about your health insurance?? How about investing? You need to invest. But how much are you going to invest and in what? Ideally, I'd like to invest in real estate in major metro areas... uh, yeah, that ain't happenin' with a net takehome of $1-2K. PFFT. What if you decide to have children? What about buying things that you've always enjoyed but wanted to "wait until you made money"? From my estimates and assuming you're a diligent person putting your money into investing, you're probably going to have to "wait" a little more. Or be really really good about saving up.

You could live outside a metro area and not have as such high estimates. But your monthly takehome is probably going to drop significantly to about $2000-3000. These are just based on the numbers I've seen in recent job ads. So, take what you will. That's how I've worked out the logic in my head. Maybe some of my numbers are wrong, but the overall picture is pretty grim for new vet grads.
I don't see student loan payments in this either. If you're making that kind of money, you can guarantee you're looking at probably $1000-2500/month in student loans depending on the repayment plan
 
I was being hopeful and thinking that the $3-4,000 is your takehome after taxes and student loans :) I'm an optimist, I swear. I think that estimate might actually be too high lol.
 
I was being hopeful and thinking that the $3-4,000 is your takehome after taxes and student loans :) I'm an optimist, I swear. I think that estimate might actually be too high lol.
It certainly is higher than I make after student loans. And I live in a metro area.
 
That was sort of my fear. Yikes.. Maybe I should readjust: Take-home of ~$2500-3500/mo in a metro area and maybe $1-2K in a non-metro area? The optimist in me has died a little.
 
Where do you all live?? $36,000 - $48,000/year is beggar's money for a typical person living in a metropolitan area, which is where a large number of professionals live (because it tends to be one of the few places that can sustain vet medicine) and which is the general trend of human migration:
- Let's say you live in a typical metro area where your own basic studio or 1bed/1bath will cost at least $1000. Since $1200 was quoted above and the market has changed since I last looked, let's say $1200. So, take that out, and you've got $1800-$2800/month.
- You have the basic living expenses that must be paid: gas, electric, internet, water, trash = let's say it averages $200-300/month (these are figures I remember from renting in a metro area).
- Now, let's say it costs about $150-200/person for food.
- Now, let's say you pump a full tank twice a month; with a metro area avg of gas at ~ $3.60/gallon for a typical sedan of about 13 gallons = $90-100/month. Keep in mind, I'm assuming you already have a car lol.
- ^because you have said car, you need insurance: ~$200-300/month
- and, of course, you have animals. Let's say you're being relatively thrifty and only have one dog or two cats or whatever. Typically, I find that people spend about $50/month on their animals.
Taking the low end of my estimates, I come out with a net balance of $1,110-2,110.

Now, these are numbers for just the bare bones "I just need to live and sustain myself here in the present" conditions. What happens if there's an emergency? We are all very aware that an emergency for our beloved pets can easily dip into the $1000s. Heck, what about your health insurance?? How about investing? You need to invest. But how much are you going to invest and in what? Ideally, I'd like to invest in real estate in major metro areas... uh, yeah, that ain't happenin' with a net takehome of $1-2K. PFFT. What if you decide to have children? What about buying things that you've always enjoyed but wanted to "wait until you made money"? From my estimates and assuming you're a diligent person putting your money into investing, you're probably going to have to "wait" a little more. Or be really really good about saving up.

You could live outside a metro area and not have as such high estimates. But your monthly takehome is probably going to drop significantly to about $2000-3000. These are just based on the numbers I've seen in recent job ads. So, take what you will. That's how I've worked out the logic in my head. Maybe some of my numbers are wrong, but the overall picture is pretty grim for new vet grads.

Edit: Mortgage v. renting. As far as I've learned from financial gurus, it is almost always preferable to buy a home. And from what I've seen in terms of monthly mortgage v. rent in my areas, it is almost always cheaper to buy a home and pay mortgage. So why do so many people rent? Because nobody has enough money to pay the down payment, haha. SIGH. Money...


1 bed apartments around here are more around $800/month (you could also probably rent a house around this too if you look around some).
I have never paid over $150/month for car insurance
The gas is fair for some areas, is still a bit high around where I am thinking I will live (of course it could be that high by the time I graduate)
I don't want children
I am a money saver, I have very few things that I have wanted to buy but have to "wait until I have the money"
You also forget you can still work in a "metro" area and live outside that area.... that will increase you gas spending but could decrease your living expenses significantly.
Also $150-200/per month on food for each person is a bit absurd (at least for me). I rarely ever spend more than $100/month on food.

Yes, it is going to be hard and a struggle (I don't disagree with that), but if my parents could raise 4 kids, live in a "metro" area, pay all their bills (owning two cars and a 4 bed/2 bath house) and have a combined income similar that is equal to the $36,000-$48,000 stated above; I think I can manage, probably because I have grown up knowing to live conservatively with money. Even when I was 17 with my first job, I didn't spend the money I saved it for 5 years and then bought me a car. Yeah, it "sucks" to live like that, but I don't know any different.
 
Just want to add to the recent grads...

You really SHOULD start savings to build up money to pay the tax bill for loan forgiveness AS SOON AS POSSIBLE... The less you make, the less your loan repayments will be, and the higher the tax bill will be. It is easy to think you can start savings later in your career when you are making more, but I guarantee you will find your lifestyle expenses will increase as well.

The biggest thing about saving money is to START EARLY.

Be disciplined, and put the money away and leave it, however you choose to invest.

Of course that goes for retirement savings as well, which I doubt any of you have ever contributed to, but now that you have "real" jobs, you need to start early. IRAs are simple and lower your tax burden, so I would recommend you open one and contribute to it every year.

If you have basic questions about finance, I can try to help... but you have to stop thinking like a student/young'un and start thinking like an adult now. (excuse the condescension.... just trying to make a point).
 
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1 bed apartments around here are more around $800/month (you could also probably rent a house around this too if you look around some).
I have never paid over $150/month for car insurance
The gas is fair for some areas, is still a bit high around where I am thinking I will live (of course it could be that high by the time I graduate)
I don't want children
I am a money saver, I have very few things that I have wanted to buy but have to "wait until I have the money"
You also forget you can still work in a "metro" area and live outside that area.... that will increase you gas spending but could decrease your living expenses significantly.
Also $150-200/per month on food for each person is a bit absurd (at least for me). I rarely ever spend more than $100/month on food.

Yes, it is going to be hard and a struggle (I don't disagree with that), but if my parents could raise 4 kids, live in a "metro" area, pay all their bills (owning two cars and a 4 bed/2 bath house) and have a combined income similar that is equal to the $36,000-$48,000 stated above; I think I can manage, probably because I have grown up knowing to live conservatively with money. Even when I was 17 with my first job, I didn't spend the money I saved it for 5 years and then bought me a car. Yeah, it "sucks" to live like that, but I don't know any different.
I don't really want to belabor the point, but you're still missing some important things in there. Association dues (because vet med is all about networking) and not all places pay that, licensing fees, CE fees. Taxes differ in different areas too. I luckily live in a state with no income tax but there are only a few states with that. You also may be bringing home a certain amount but are taxed in the highest bracket so that does change thing from how your parents may have handled things. Just some things to consider. I'm only mentioning it because I thought I would be happy with the amount I'm making. Until you start to add everything up and see how much you really have at the end of the month, you don't really know.
 
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I don't really want to belabor the point, but you're still missing some important things in there. Association dues (because vet med is all about networking) and not all places pay that, licensing fees, CE fees. Taxes differ in different areas too. I luckily live in a state with no income tax but there are only a few states with that. You also may be bringing home a certain amount but are taxed in the highest bracket so that does change thing from how your parents may have handled things. Just some things to consider. I'm only mentioning it because I thought I would be happy with the amount I'm making. Until you start to add everything up and see how much you really have at the end of the month, you don't really know.
This...


Although location will really affect what is left over for discretionary spending. Arizona is probably one of the better places for wage:living cost. So you are both right!.
 
I don't really want to belabor the point, but you're still missing some important things in there. Association dues (because vet med is all about networking) and not all places pay that, licensing fees, CE fees. Taxes differ in different areas too. I luckily live in a state with no income tax but there are only a few states with that. You also may be bringing home a certain amount but are taxed in the highest bracket so that does change thing from how your parents may have handled things. Just some things to consider. I'm only mentioning it because I thought I would be happy with the amount I'm making. Until you start to add everything up and see how much you really have at the end of the month, you don't really know.
This is so true. I think we as people tend to think that we can all just cross that bridge when we get there. But what happens when you're on that bridge making do, just getting by, when you encounter a health problem and have insufficient health insurance or are approaching retirement and realize that you didn't plan ahead when you were young?

I think a major point that we "young'uns" are missing is that things were very different for our parents in terms of political and financial climates. The economics of our society have changed quite a bit, and our parents never had to deal with the amount of debt that we have just as new graduates. The only time they probably ever took out 100-200K in loans was when they already had steady jobs, already had a strong down payment, and were married w/ tax benefits. A lot of us are still single and either lack a job or are looking to start with a middling income ... but most of us already have, essentially, a house under our name. That's insane. That's not something our parents had to work with. I think it's fine if you're moving to a state/area where, perhaps, you can work off your debt and live reasonably well. But we can't all do that. So what are the rest of us supposed to do? I don't know.

As for food, I've obsessed over it and calculated it over and over again. If the goal is to eat healthily with ~3-4lbs of vegetables + 1-2 lb of sustainably raised meat and fish + grains/eggs/yogurt, etc., your bill per week will reach into ~$30. That's not including pantry staples like spices, sauces, etc. Or coffee... or the occasional treat like a freakin' cookie...Even if you're vegetarian, you'll probably bump the meat costs into buying heartier vegetables or tofu or cheese... I also exercise a lot, so I need to eat a lot. That could be a reason why my food bill is higher, too.
 
Also, SOV, could you actually explain a bit more about investment and saving as it pertains to new vet grads? I know just the bare basics about roth IRAs and stuff, but it's just stupid things I memorized verbatim from so-called "experts" who are probably speaking to folks working in the corporate world, not vet med. Really looking forward to hearing about what we CAN do given our circumstances. I know that I'll be investing ASAP, but I'm not quite sure in what capacity. Still wish I could invest in metro real estate, but I'm learning to defer that dream :)
 
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Also, SOV, could you actually explain a bit more about investment and saving as it pertains to new vet grads? I know just the bare basics about roth IRAs and stuff, but it's just stupid things I memorized verbatim from so-called "experts" who are probably speaking to folks working in the corporate world, not vet med. Really looking forward to hearing about what we CAN do given our circumstances. I know that I'll be investing ASAP, but I'm not quite sure in what capacity. Still wish I could invest in metro real estate, but I'm learning to defer that dream :)
Without getting in details...

The easiest thing to do is to figure out how much you can set aside each month. Ideally you want to try to target the IRA contribution limit of $5,500 a year. You can choose traditional IRA (which lowers your taxes now, but gets taxed when you withdraw) or Roth (which is using after tax dollars, but is tax-free on withdrawal).

I recommend young'uns put their money in the market each year. Forget about market timing etc, there is no way you are going to do better than random. Mutual funds are probably best in my opinion. You can take a company like Vanguard, low fees, no charges, you just buy whatever kind of fund you want (you can do bond funds, real estate funds, gold)... whatever you do try to spread it out.

Also, figure out when your your loan forgiveness occurs vs your age. If you are going to have to pay before retirement age (around 60 I believe), then you need to find another way to save, as their is a 10% penalty for early withdrawal.

That is just some of the basics.

Just remember... diversify diversify diversify. Diversification is the single most important thing to do as an individual investor. It lowers risk considerably.

And make regular investments each year..
 
I don't really want to belabor the point, but you're still missing some important things in there. Association dues (because vet med is all about networking) and not all places pay that, licensing fees, CE fees. Taxes differ in different areas too. I luckily live in a state with no income tax but there are only a few states with that. You also may be bringing home a certain amount but are taxed in the highest bracket so that does change thing from how your parents may have handled things. Just some things to consider. I'm only mentioning it because I thought I would be happy with the amount I'm making. Until you start to add everything up and see how much you really have at the end of the month, you don't really know.

Yeah this is all true. I realized there were some things that were missing from the estimations. I think the point is that people go into get a degree expecting to come out and be able to do/buy the things they have always "wanted". I don't expect that; I don't really have any of those "things I have always wanted". I am very used to cutting costs, budgeting and living within my means. It doesn't bother me that I won't be able to buy the nicer car, a house, or whatever. I am ok with that; I am used to that. The only thing that would make me unhappy is if I can not afford all of my bills, that scares me. I can live without the "wants" but I don't like not being able to pay bills, which could happen but I am going to hope that it doesn't.
 
SOV, you should be a financial counselor for vets and vet students. Just sayin. I am and always will be an old fart, so I really like and appreciate when people talk about planning for retirement. Feel free to sprinkle in more details, too! Didn't know the distinctions between the two IRAs, so I'm glad you explained that! Makes sense.

I say I'm fine with the income I'll likely be making. But I have goals of wanting to use my money to enrich my community in big ways. I want to create some type of community center. I want to start my own community programs. And that's a big investment that I need to plan out, and I'll need a decent income to fulfill it. I care not one iota about "new" anything, but, if I want that big center where kids can come and learn about science and vet medicine and community empowerment, then I need the income to allow that. If I want to be able to sustain myself in retirement, then I need the income to allow that. If I want kids, and yeah I do, then I need the income to allow that. With the current state of affairs? I'm not so sure if our incomes will allow for that. The current debt:income situation that we face is pretty grim, and I think pre-vets/vet students should be very aware of it. Or, maybe, it can only go up from here. Who knows ...
 
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If
Where do you all live?? $36,000 - $48,000/year is beggar's money for a typical person living in a metropolitan area, which is where a large number of professionals live (because it tends to be one of the few places that can sustain vet medicine) and which is the general trend of human migration:
- Let's say you live in a typical metro area where your own basic studio or 1bed/1bath will cost at least $1000. Since $1200 was quoted above and the market has changed since I last looked, let's say $1200. So, take that out, and you've got $1800-$2800/month.
- You have the basic living expenses that must be paid: gas, electric, internet, water, trash = let's say it averages $200-300/month (these are figures I remember from renting in a metro area).
- Now, let's say it costs about $150-200/person for food.
- Now, let's say you pump a full tank twice a month; with a metro area avg of gas at ~ $3.60/gallon for a typical sedan of about 13 gallons = $90-100/month. Keep in mind, I'm assuming you already have a car lol.
- ^because you have said car, you need insurance: ~$200-300/month
- and, of course, you have animals. Let's say you're being relatively thrifty and only have one dog or two cats or whatever. Typically, I find that people spend about $50/month on their animals.
Taking the low end of my estimates, I come out with a net balance of $1,110-2,110.

Now, these are numbers for just the bare bones "I just need to live and sustain myself here in the present" conditions. What happens if there's an emergency? We are all very aware that an emergency for our beloved pets can easily dip into the $1000s. Heck, what about your health insurance?? How about investing? You need to invest. But how much are you going to invest and in what? Ideally, I'd like to invest in real estate in major metro areas... uh, yeah, that ain't happenin' with a net takehome of $1-2K. PFFT. What if you decide to have children? What about buying things that you've always enjoyed but wanted to "wait until you made money"? From my estimates and assuming you're a diligent person putting your money into investing, you're probably going to have to "wait" a little more. Or be really really good about saving up.

You could live outside a metro area and not have as such high estimates. But your monthly takehome is probably going to drop significantly to about $2000-3000. These are just based on the numbers I've seen in recent job ads. So, take what you will. That's how I've worked out the logic in my head. Maybe some of my numbers are wrong, but the overall picture is pretty grim for new vet grads.

Edit: Mortgage v. renting. As far as I've learned from financial gurus, it is almost always preferable to buy a home. And from what I've seen in terms of monthly mortgage v. rent in my areas, it is almost always cheaper to buy a home and pay mortgage. So why do so many people rent? Because nobody has enough money to pay the down payment, haha. SIGH. Money...
I live in NJ 45 minutes outside of NYC. Right now I take home less than half of 3000 - I live on a strict budget and I am only able to save aside $75 a month so having 1K leftover to save each month sounds glorious to me. When you are so used to breaking completely even or being in the deficit for years, the ability to save any money at all is very appealing even though to others it may not seem like very much. In the long term, luckily my SO's career will be taking off so we will be able to raise kids. Oh and I definitely spend closer to 200 - 300 bucks on food each month too - I'm a vegetarian but the meats are swapped for pricey produce, especially in the winter months... But I also eat about 3x my body weight in food so I realize this $ may not be the norm.
 
Recently I was pretty depressed wondering when I would ever be able to afford living without roommates (Nevermind owning my own place)... Only way to ever do that for me and live comfortably is to live with an SO and have a second income. That's pretty sad :( I don't need to be rich or anything, but it would be nice to have my own kitchen and bathroom one day, and not have to worry about keeping up with a revolving door of strangers to live with. Don't get me wrong, I've met some lifelong friends this way, but it's not how I want to spend the prime of my life. Well, here's to hoping it works out with my current SO.

A teehee, what a coinkidink. My SO emailed me out of the blue last night with a one liner saying we should live together if I can find a job in the area. I feel like 2014 might be a good year for once :)
 
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As for food, I've obsessed over it and calculated it over and over again. If the goal is to eat healthily with ~3-4lbs of vegetables + 1-2 lb of sustainably raised meat and fish + grains/eggs/yogurt, etc., your bill per week will reach into ~$30. That's not including pantry staples like spices, sauces, etc. Or coffee... or the occasional treat like a freakin' cookie...Even if you're vegetarian, you'll probably bump the meat costs into buying heartier vegetables or tofu or cheese... I also exercise a lot, so I need to eat a lot. That could be a reason why my food bill is higher, too.

I have to disagree with you there. It would be nearly impossible to eat a relatively healthy diet for less than $50 a week, and that might even be pushing it (especially if you're getting more expensive, sustainably raised meat). I know the $20 difference seems small, but I thought I'd just point that out...
 
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SOV, you should be a financial counselor for vets and vet students. Just sayin. I am and always will be an old fart, so I really like and appreciate when people talk about planning for retirement. Feel free to sprinkle in more details, too! Didn't know the distinctions between the two IRAs, so I'm glad you explained that! Makes sense.

I say I'm fine with the income I'll likely be making. But I have goals of wanting to use my money to enrich my community in big ways. I want to create some type of community center. I want to start my own community programs. And that's a big investment that I need to plan out, and I'll need a decent income to fulfill it. I care not one iota about "new" anything, but, if I want that big center where kids can come and learn about science and vet medicine and community empowerment, then I need the income to allow that. If I want to be able to sustain myself in retirement, then I need the income to allow that. If I want kids, and yeah I do, then I need the income to allow that. With the current state of affairs? I'm not so sure if our incomes will allow for that. The current debt:income situation that we face is pretty grim, and I think pre-vets/vet students should be very aware of it. Or, maybe, it can only go up from here. Who knows ...
Still the best way to make money in vet med is to become a practice owner. The negative is you have to take o an enormous debt load to do so. The positive is, lenders still consider vet practices low risk and are still making loans. I have heard anecdotally that some practices have defaulted on their loans for really the first time, so this might change a little.

The thing is you have to be comfortable with a huge personal guarantee on these loans, but it is the best way. Buying old or setting up new...either way works.

Just saying ....if you want more dough, that is the way to go.
 
Still the best way to make money in vet med is to become a practice owner. The negative is you have to take o an enormous debt load to do so. The positive is, lenders still consider vet practices low risk and are still making loans. I have heard anecdotally that some practices have defaulted on their loans for really the first time, so this might change a little.

The thing is you have to be comfortable with a huge personal guarantee on these loans, but it is the best way. Buying old or setting up new...either way works.

Just saying ....if you want more dough, that is the way to go.
I have heard that it is becoming hard to get financing...
 
I agree. But I just don't understand how anyone would consider shelling out that big of a loan to a vet with ~100-150K in student loans and only making 60-80K a year. Like.. who in their right mind would loan you more money to buy a practice? I wouldn't! I need to find myself a venture capitalist Or, yknow, marry rich.

And, man, yall are poking at my numbers but I'm just trying to be optimistic here! :p I think I'm too optimistic in some regards and too pessimistic in others.
 
Wow a $100/month on groceries!!! I wish that was my grocery bill. I usually have to spend almost that amount per week. Though it is for me, spouse and toddler. I can't get out of the store with just milk, bread, some fruits and veggies for less than $30. Must be big regional differences? Or maybe I'm a really bad shopper :p
 
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I agree. But I just don't understand how anyone would consider shelling out that big of a loan to a vet with ~100-150K in student loans and only making 60-80K a year. Like.. who in their right mind would loan you more money to buy a practice? I wouldn't! I need to find myself a venture capitalist Or, yknow, marry rich.

And, man, yall are poking at my numbers but I'm just trying to be optimistic here! :p I think I'm too optimistic in some regards and too pessimistic in others.
There are banks that specialize in vet practices. I can dig up the names if necessary. Basically, till the last 2 years at least, vets had the lowest default rate on loans. Your debt is really irrelevant. All that matters to the lender is if you will have sufficient coverage of your payments. The more you borrow ironically, the more likely you are going to have a practice that covers its payments...so they were just as willing to lend $1mm as 100k.
 
I know this is probably the last thing anyone wants to think about while we are anxiously awaiting admissions decisions, but I've been in a bit of funk today dwelling on the issue of student loans.


Anyone else feel the same way? Or am I being too pessimistic?


Hey, you are not alone by any means. This is one of the MAJOR reasons why I have become really hesitant about this career . Like you, I LOVE this field, all the science that goes into it and helping the animals. But that can get old real fast when you are miserable at your job. Money may not be a major issue in your 20s b/c you can get by with less. However, as you enter your 30s and 40s, comfort and balance become important. I am not talking wealthy, I am just talking about not having to constantly struggle financially. Many students, including myself, do not realize the consequences of this financial part. Sickness/health , retirement, responsibilities, balance, stress, etc. become more and more important in your life. Unfortunately the vet salaries are not high enough to keep up with the debt. I worked as a professional in my field and made decent money. I still lived pay check to pay check in a large city. I couldn't afford to buy a home, not even a small one. Renting was not easy either, b/c its sooo expensive. So when people say salaries are 80K in big cities, don't forget that rent for a small 1BDR is $2000/month, a very average house is $700+K + car+ food+ commute+ insurance +..... When you add that all up, 80K after taxes doesn't go far. I know! Now add the 160k in debt, and you are literally left with nothing at the end of the month. I am not going to even mention that recent reports indicate a surplus of recent graduates and veterinary professional. That's another story.I am not a fan of the word " downer". If I choose to bury my head in the sand and ignore realities, that's just naive. Its smart you are thinking about this now. This damn debt is going to be hanging off of our necks like an albatross. That would mean you may be pressured to take a job you don't like or possibly practice less than ideal medicine ( I have heard from vets how they had to cut " corners" so I am not making this up) . If you decide to go for it , despite all of this, then at least you have made an informed decision and know about the consequences.
 
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