Nothing But Mammals

[LJDHC05]

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I think the vegans who drink beer are technically beegans, but you're supposed to pronounce it with sort of a combination b/v so that it is hard to tell what is being said...

Beegans do not (because I know the question is coming) allow genetically engineered hops.

Also, the Clydesdales that pull the beegans kegs around can't live anywhere near a farm that is mass-producing meat of any type.

I think it takes a little more than sailing to make someone crazy enough to give that response!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SailCrazy]

I saw lindsay lohan eating chicken so she's doing the vegan thing for fun (Jacque Imo's in new orleans, about 3 blocks from Tulane, HIGHLY recommended by me, dont think they're vegan)

... and didn't Lindsay's publicist say that was just tofu shaped like chicken?

 

[SailCrazy]

I think it takes a little more than sailing to make someone crazy enough to give that response!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah yes, the joys of secondary essay season.

Never underestimate the powers of an inspired and desperate procrastinator! 👍

 

[LJDHC05]

... and didn't Lindsay's publicist say that was just tofu shaped like chicken?

Is that like a tofu turkey? cause one of my friends has one every thanksgiving and I just dont understand how you make soy-jello into the shape of a turkey...where's the drumsticks? And what do you use for gravy?

 

[Hoberto]

Would you eat something with an AFP in it, like a tomato? what if it didn't have the inherent regulatory mechanisms found in the systems which they are brought from? I mean how the hell does the organism regulate the concentration of AFP in its tissue, feedback inhibition/osmolarity??? what if you missed part of the regulatory mechanism and had AFP dried tomatoes...scary stuff? I take my organic home-grown tomatoes that dont taste like cardboard

Actually, I would never eat a tomato as they are nasty!

I am more interested in AFPs for their use as cryopreservation agents. The idea is to extend the shelf life of donor organs so we can use more of the very few that we get rather than having them die during shipping.

Those who are doing work with AFP and plants are probably modeling their work on the AFPs currently in plants such as some varieties of rye and wheat. My guess would be that they are trying to make the plants freeze-resistant rather than the fruit but I really don't know. A lot of the work in this area is pure speculation.

 

[LJDHC05]

Actually, I would never eat a tomato as they are nasty!

I am more interested in AFPs for their use as cryopreservation agents. The idea is to extend the shelf life of donor organs so we can use more of the very few that we get rather than having them die during shipping.

Those who are doing work with AFP and plants are probably modeling their work on the AFPs currently in plants such as some varieties of rye and wheat. My guess would be that they are trying to make the plants freeze-resistant rather than the fruit but I really don't know. A lot of the work in this area is pure speculation.

What about a tofu turkey? would you eat one of those?

 

[SailCrazy]

What about a tofu turkey? would you eat one of those?

I will answer your two part question, even though only one of the two parts was directed to me, and it was really two different queries.

Yes, I would eat a tofu turkey. Assuming that the gravy was made as is custom: by substituting refried beans that have been heated until almost totally liquid in consistency.

 

[Kitra101]

ug

 

[mastamark]

Soy is fine for women AFAIK, but there are numerous studies out there showing that too much soy for men (and if you're a vegan, chances are quite high that you're getting too much soy if you're male) wreaks havoc with hormone levels and such.

Well then I was screwed, since I am lactose intolerant. It is amazing how the Milk industry pushes 3 servings of dairy daily when the majority of the world is lactose intolerant.

I try to take a lot of those studies with a grain of salt. There is a war going on between the Dairy farmers and Soy manufacturers. If you look deep enough alot of those studies are funded and even initiated by the Dairy council.

There is also a study claiming that dairy may actually cause osteoporosis: The sulfer & phosphorous based proteins of dairy can cause a imbalanced PH in the body. The body's defense is to use calcium stores from the bone to buffer this condition. Let us remember that calcium is found in green leafy vegetables(especially kale), Cabage, ha yeah tofu(soy).

http://www.babyreference.com/MilkingYourBones.htm

http://www.cyberparent.com/nutrition/osteoporosiscausemilk.htm

http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm

http://www.roger.id.au/health/milk.php

I find it really weird that of that our country, having the highest rate of dairy consumption, also boasts the highest incidence of osteoporosis. Milk is also a big factor in Iron deficiencies too.

Too much soy causes hormonal imbalances? I wonder what too much fat laden beef and pork can cause. Hmm lets see: Heart disease, high blood pressure, impotence(yes impotence), diabetes, stroke, cancers(proven in grilled or overcooked meats).

I apologize if I am coming off defensive.

 

[mastamark]

I saw lindsay lohan eating chicken so she's doing the vegan thing for fun (Jacque Imo's in new orleans, about 3 blocks from Tulane, HIGHLY recommended by me, dont think they're vegan)

Mastamark, can vegans drink beer?

I'm going to make a blanket statement that may offend many people:
If you cant drink beer, then something is seriously wrong with your dietary ideals!

I don't think there are any rules. I don't drink personally. I take that back I have drunk maybe one or two beers in the past eight years, but thats my own personal choice not a vegan choice. I try not to consume alcohol because I used to get outta hand with it. Being vegan is also a personal choice though. I don't follow some internationally sanctioned rule book. Some vegans eat honey, some don't. Again, I don't for personal reasons.

 

[mastamark]

I do hearing reseach with baby chickens, and that one makes me sad tigger 🙁. We are as humane as possible when we sacrifice the animals, oversedate them with a barbituate and they go to sleep. I still feel bad about it every time, but in my opinion it's worth it.

That sucks. 🙁

I wish there were other ways to do things. The one thing humans should do in my opinion is figure out other ways of doing research. I mean there are literally hundreds of ways to achieve any goal. Animal research and vivesection are only one.

I always pondered the animal research idea. Why is it more ethical to experiment on a creature that didn't give you permission to do so, opposed to a human that grants you permission(there are many that will). I mean apart from financial reasons. I mean many animal research projects come up short anyhow, because the same effects on these animals don't hold true for humans. I don't think many human experiments are right either. but hey thats only 2 ways to achieve a goal. And I don't think we will ever solve all of our problems as humans. Some of the problems we are trying to solve are a result of our own carelessness and cruelty.

That said, I am totally for science; in the most comapssionate way possible. I am glad I don't want to do research.

 

[tigress]

Well then I was screwed, since I am lactose intolerant. It is amazing how the Milk industry pushes 3 servings of dairy daily when the majority of the world is lactose intolerant.

hah, I wasn't going to get into the milk discussion, but now it looks like I am 😛. A disclaimer to begin with: I eat dairy foods, particularly cheese.

Humans are the only animals that consume milk past infancy, and the only animals that consume milk from a species other than our own. In certain racial groups, the vast majority of people are lactose intolerant. As mastamark says, this comes out to the majority of the people in the world (I'm not 100% sure on that stat, though). Even in racial groups/societies that have historically developed a lactose tolerance, a significant minority of members are actually lactose intolerant. So why exactly do we drink milk?

The above are some of the more philosophical/ideological arguments against human consumption of cow milk. Many anti-milk activists get into issues such as the pus content of commercial milk, the treatment of milk cows (make them pregnant, take away their babies, and then milk them continuously and in a somewhat painful manner to extract as much milk as possible before giving up on the cow and killing it). Then people get into pseudo-scientific stuff about milk causing autoimmune diseases, allergies, etc. And the newer research suggesting that too much milk may actually contribute to osteoporosis.

I'm not saying I buy any of this, although I do find the first argument (about humans being the only animals to consume milk in adulthood) compelling. I just can't give up my cheese, though 😛. Thankfully I'm not lactose intolerant. I AM very bothered by the dairy industry, which has convinced the entire country that tons of milk is ideal for our health. I simply don't believe this to be the case. It can also be (and has been) construed as racist, as the majority of black and hispanic people are lactose intolerant, whereas the majority of white people are not.

Okay, enough blabbing for tonight. It's bedtime 🙂

 

[gujuDoc]

I think I posted this already but don't recall and am lazy to look on the previous page.

but I'm vegetarian but could never be vegan. I'm vegetarian for religious reasons and no other reason other then that.

I could never give up milk, and I could never give up other dairy products. Some of the best Indian dishes require both of those things. Plus I prefer milk to soy milk with my serial.


On a side note, has anyone ever tasted vegan cookies??? they are actually quite interesting because they taste almost like the normal cookies. I found that interesting.

I like tofu by the way. But I still like variety in my meals and don't think I could survive off of tofu alone. But tofu with some seasoning, over black beans and rice. mmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmm good. 🙂

 

[tigress]

I always pondered the animal research idea. Why is it more ethical to experiment on a creature that didn't give you permission to do so, opposed to a human that grants you permission(there are many that will). I mean apart from financial reasons. I mean many animal research projects come up short anyhow, because the same effects on these animals don't hold true for humans. I don't think many human experiments are right either. but hey thats only 2 ways to achieve a goal. And I don't think we will ever solve all of our problems as humans. Some of the problems we are trying to solve are a result of our own carelessness and cruelty.

I think it would be difficult to breed thousands of research humans, knock out specific genes in them, inject them with research drugs, etc., and then kill them and dissect them to see the results. The point is, there really aren't better ways of doing basic science research than by using animal models. We have to start in animals before we move to humans. What justifies it, in my mind, is the end goal of helping people. I do believe that a human life is more valuable than an animal life. I suppose that is where I diverge from PETA 😛. In the long run we want to help humans. If research animals must die in the process, so be it.

The other issue, which is also an issue with using animals for food, is that these animals have been bred by humans and would not necessarily exist without human intervention. Many people believe this does not justify killing them or using them for our purposes. But I like to point to Temple Grandin, who designed the modern methods of slaughtering cattle. She absolutely loves cows, relates to them more than she relates to humans (she's autistic; I've heard her express this sentiment on the radio). So people ask her why she designs methods of killing the animals she loves. She generally responds by pointing out that modern cattle would not exist if it were not for humans. If we did not breed them and farm them for use as meat and for milk, the species would probably die out; it certainly would never be what it is today if we had not used them historically. I can understand why people think this does not justify killing them for food, but I see Grandin's point. She feels like cows are a human creation, and should we stop using them as such, they simply wouldn't be. And at the same time, her work revolves around making the killing process as absolutely humane as possible.

I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this. Just thought I'd throw it out there. As far as research animals, having been in a variety of labs, I saw first hand how difficult/impossible it is to do research without animal models; one lab I was in was specifically NOT an animal lab and did not use mice, but at one point the PI wanted to delve into a specific topic and realized that she had no choice but to go to a mouse model.

 

[Hoya11]

For whatever reason I have become a vegetarian(or whatever) after gross anatomy/dissection.

I used to be the biggest whopper/bigmac eating guy ever, but no meat for about 1 year now and I have to say I feel great. I have lost weight and I eat more regularly and dont feel the huge ups and downs of hunger and binging as I did with meat.

I guess I couldnt stop thinking about the guy out there who killed what I ate. I thought, would I kill this cow to eat it? Prob not, I would probably just eat strawberrys and take a nap. But yeah if some crazy dude is going to kill a million cows and all I have to do is eat it, they are already dead right whats the big deal? Then I realized that that kind of thinking was wrong, and someone actually WAS out there killing a cow for me. And that dude is nuts.

Since then I have taken the ethic of, would I do this? Would I milk a cow? Yeah, so Id drink milk. Would I take a chickens eggs and cook them, probably. So Ill eat eggs. Would I kill this cow? Would I kill this pig? Hell no. I cant kill anything.

 

[Will Hunting]

I tend to agree with you on the substituting. I just don't know how much that would entice some people. Like grand theft auto for example(why?). As for the B-12, you can get B-12 in pretty much any animal product because it is stored in flesh, milk, hair(eww) etc. It is speculated that humans once had this intrinsic factor with the bacteria in our guts(i dunno what happened, maybe the dependence on animal products killed it). The funny thing is that non vegans get above and beyond the B-12 neccessary for good health. It is also a fat soluble vitamin so it is stored for a long time. Me, I get along well with fortified soymilks and tofu. Fortified foods are ok for me I guess, not natural but more humane in my mind at least.

By the way tofu isn't bad at all . Just had to put that out there before people start bashing it. And soymilk is yummy. 😍

haha. That's all my mom buys. I hate it.

 

[gujuDoc]

Ok I was going to stay away from the discussions, but I do agree with all that Tigress pointed out above. I just had to throw that in there.

I don't mind use of animals in research. My only gripe with the animals in the lab, where I used to do undergrad research, is that they wouldn't change the cages so these rats would be living in their own piss and crap. It was really disgusting. You'd think the least they'd do is change the cages, etc.

Sorry that was just a pet peeve from where I used to work.

But you all have to realize there is only so much we can do with computer generated models, etc. There are limitations that can only be overcome through living animal models.

Second off, in regards to the last point Tigress made..........

I too think many of the animals would die off if they weren't taken care of by humans, because they have become too domesticated now that they have lost much of their natural instincts.

Also, if we were to let all the animals loose etc, there would be one of two things happening...........either they would all not survive well because they've been too domesticated, or they'd multiply too much and cause severe crowding and overpopulation issues.

While I've given up meat for personal religiocultural reasons, I can see why many do eat it. God created all animals and humans to live off of each other. No I don't agree in the sport of hunting just for the sake of doing it. However, I do see the need to create proper food for our diets. Besides many of the countries where meat is a major staple are countries where warm climates to grow exotic plant substitutes did not exist in the olden days.

For instance, in India we are able to survive on our vegetarian beliefs because we have vegetables that are not even found in America (unless you go to an Asian grocery store) such as the moong bean.

Many of the vegetables that grow in my home land, as well as in other asian countries like China and Viet Nam, are things that provide the necessary nutrients and protein values that meat normally provides. In the olden days, however, many of these things were not available in the northern areas where the climate was too cold. People who hunted in the ancient days were people who needed to do so out of necessity for various reasons, food being one of them. Prior to creation of cotton, etc, I'm sure using the skin of animals to survive in the cold, was also necessary.

But that's just my two cents. I wasn't going to get in this debate, but I had to comment to that last thing I read.

 

[gujuDoc]

For whatever reason I have become a vegetarian(or whatever) after gross anatomy/dissection.

I used to be the biggest whopper/bigmac eating guy ever, but no meat for about 1 year now and I have to say I feel great. I have lost weight and I eat more regularly and dont feel the huge ups and downs of hunger and binging as I did with meat.

I guess I couldnt stop thinking about the guy out there who killed what I ate. I thought, would I kill this cow to eat it? Prob not, I would probably just eat strawberrys and take a nap. But yeah if some crazy dude is going to kill a million cows and all I have to do is eat it, they are already dead right whats the big deal? Then I realized that that kind of thinking was wrong, and someone actually WAS out there killing a cow for me. And that dude is nuts.

Since then I have taken the ethic of, would I do this? Would I milk a cow? Yeah, so Id drink milk. Would I take a chickens eggs and cook them, probably. So Ill eat eggs. Would I kill this cow? Would I kill this pig? Hell no. I cant kill anything.

I think you and I must be secretly related. 😉 😛 😀
J/K

But in all seriousness........

I also eat eggs and dairy products, but don't eat much else outside of that. And even though I gave it up because of religiocultural reasons, I have not missed it one bit and often feel the same way. Many months ago when I was at a party over Christmas break, people were making comments on what goes on in a meat processing plant or something like that, and I was just sitting there thinking that boy was I glad to have given it up. When I heard what they were saying, it just grossed me out so much.

But that said, I don't have an issue with those who do eat meat. I just choose not to do so myself for the reasons I've stated too many times in the past few posts.

 

[gujuDoc]

haha. That's all my mom buys. I hate it.

Tofu is good but only in small doses. I couldn't eat tofu 24/7. I'd go crazy. But in smaller doses its good.

Actually if you are vegetarian, I recommend you trying to eat the different Indian vegetables that you can get from any Indian grocery store and looking up recipes and ways to cook them. Plus they are healthy.

 

[mastamark]

Tofu is good but only in small doses. I couldn't eat tofu 24/7. I'd go crazy. But in smaller doses its good.

Actually if you are vegetarian, I recommend you trying to eat the different Indian vegetables that you can get from any Indian grocery store and looking up recipes and ways to cook them. Plus they are healthy.

Indian food owns. I luv chana masala and aaloo ghobi(hope i said it right). Mind you as a vegan I have to find a resaturant that doesn't use the dairy and eggs or prepare these dishes myself.

I totally agree with your prior statement. I originally was a vegetarian that ate eggs. I then stopped eating the eggs and went totally vegan(why not). The conditions that those eggs were obtained in are horrible.
I don't knock meat eaters at all. And yes vegetarianism is relativly new to the western world, but doable. Once this wasn't possible. I totally understand the use of animal skins and meat for survival, and thats the key word. I just feel like we live in a society where we don't need this to survive, and might just fare better either health wise or just the sake of compassion. But being used to old customs I don't judge anyone specifically or collectively. In my little ideal world, people would just do things or not do things after making a conscientious decision and stick to it even if there is a sacrifice involved.


But all in all you rock..... 😀

Also, do you know where I could find some good vegetarian indian recipes online? I don't mind if they are not vegan, I could substitute pretty much any dairy or egg ingredient with vegan margerine, soymilk, or corn starch for eggs.

 

[mastamark]

I think it would be difficult to breed thousands of research humans, knock out specific genes in them, inject them with research drugs, etc., and then kill them and dissect them to see the results. The point is, there really aren't better ways of doing basic science research than by using animal models. We have to start in animals before we move to humans. What justifies it, in my mind, is the end goal of helping people. I do believe that a human life is more valuable than an animal life. I suppose that is where I diverge from PETA 😛. In the long run we want to help humans. If research animals must die in the process, so be it.

The other issue, which is also an issue with using animals for food, is that these animals have been bred by humans and would not necessarily exist without human intervention. Many people believe this does not justify killing them or using them for our purposes. But I like to point to Temple Grandin, who designed the modern methods of slaughtering cattle. She absolutely loves cows, relates to them more than she relates to humans (she's autistic; I've heard her express this sentiment on the radio). So people ask her why she designs methods of killing the animals she loves. She generally responds by pointing out that modern cattle would not exist if it were not for humans. If we did not breed them and farm them for use as meat and for milk, the species would probably die out; it certainly would never be what it is today if we had not used them historically. I can understand why people think this does not justify killing them for food, but I see Grandin's point. She feels like cows are a human creation, and should we stop using them as such, they simply wouldn't be. And at the same time, her work revolves around making the killing process as absolutely humane as possible.

I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this. Just thought I'd throw it out there. As far as research animals, having been in a variety of labs, I saw first hand how difficult/impossible it is to do research without animal models; one lab I was in was specifically NOT an animal lab and did not use mice, but at one point the PI wanted to delve into a specific topic and realized that she had no choice but to go to a mouse model.

You know what? I can't even argue with you on that subject. I personally don't think we should use animals for cruel research purposes, but I understand the mindset that would. It is not always done with cruelty on the mind, but the greater good of man. There are however instances where animal experimentation is done for selfish gain. Take IAMS(dog food) for example. This company does a cruel protein experiment on chicks, I don't kow the specifics on what is done, but it leaves the little guys blind, deaf, and stunts there growth. This experiment is done to help produce cheaper to manufacture proteins to help turn a greater profit. This experiment might be published and used to help people as well, but that wasn't the intended reason for it.

Or in asia(not sure if japan or china), scientist are trying to clone cows that are immune to Mad Cow disease. Why not just stop eating beef? That is the more humane, cheapest, and healthiest thing to do. I don't know about any of you, but even if I did eat beef I don't think I would eat a genetically engineered one. It's bad enough that the cows are fed growth hormones, now they will be engineered. Who knows what new problems that can bring.

Again I am a firm believer of cause and effect. Nothing Good will cause bad and vice versa(I sound like a broken record.) These inhumane things will eventually hurt us more than help us. Global warming is happening much sooner than we expected because of factory farming. It wasn't good enough for the small farmer to produce the meat, milk, eggs...It is large corporations over-doing it to turn a large profit. Greed steps in(bad thing) and brings other bad things(global warming).

I don't belong to any specific religion, but I do believe in this you reap what you sow. Heck, you can be an athiest to see this as an evident phenomenon.

You think religions spout orders to be good to others, don't steal, cheat, kill, lie just because they sound good. It's more like a bunch of people figured it out. Each may have come to these conclusions differently, hence buddhism, christianity, Islam, Judaism, Jainism, Sikhism, Hinduism; but they all have discovered some truth that should be taken seriously. The bad thing is that we miss these truths in everyday life because we want to hold onto something that is contradictary to them, or we slip up without seeing the bannana peel, step on landmines(metaphor). We think that the things we are doing are right somehow because we don't want to hear the truth if our pleasure or our vanities are at stake.

I think we should really evaluate some of the things we do...really evaluate. Are we helping...is anyone gonna be hurt in the process. If so it isn't worth the damage that will be done. Because even if you do have the ideal of helping people in mind it will indirectly hurt them or all of us in the long run. I mean all of the bad things that go on in the world, they don't just happen they are from some cause. Sometime this cause is unknown because we think we did everything right.

Now before anyone answers I am not saying that animal experimentation caused the 9/11 bombings or anything like that; but you would be amazed if you were all knowing and could see the dynamics of how things do happen. I guess it's like the butterfly in peru flapping it's wings causes a rainbow in london(I know that's not how it goes, please work with me here).

Now before anyone gets testy and respond, understand that I am not accusing anyone of anything nor am I challenging your personal morals. Like I mentioned earlier I have my own problems(addicted to no limit texas hold'em, I actually think the back scratcher is the greatest invention of all time 0 I am just pondering what could be wrong in our whole world.


I am so sorry for going off into this, but its like 3 am, I am really wordy when I am sleepy. nite all....catch the responses in the moring...or afternoon 😴

 

[gujuDoc]

Indian food owns. I luv chana masala and aaloo ghobi(hope i said it right). Mind you as a vegan I have to find a resaturant that doesn't use the dairy and eggs or prepare these dishes myself.

I totally agree with your prior statement. I originally was a vegetarian that ate eggs. I then stopped eating the eggs and went totally vegan(why not). The conditions that those eggs were obtained in are horrible.
I don't knock meat eaters at all. And yes vegetarianism is relativly new to the western world, but doable. Once this wasn't possible. I totally understand the use of animal skins and meat for survival, and thats the key word. I just feel like we live in a society where we don't need this to survive, and might just fare better either health wise or just the sake of compassion. But being used to old customs I don't judge anyone specifically or collectively. In my little ideal world, people would just do things or not do things after making a conscientious decision and stick to it even if there is a sacrifice involved.


But all in all you rock..... 😀

Also, do you know where I could find some good vegetarian indian recipes online? I don't mind if they are not vegan, I could substitute pretty much any dairy or egg ingredient with vegan margerine, soymilk, or corn starch for eggs.

Online, I'm not sure. But a lot of book stores have decent Indian cookbooks. However, I'm sure if you did a search for different recipes online, something would come up.

For something like Paneer, you could always use the tofu in place of ricotta cheese. And there are plenty of Indian dishes that can be cooked without eggs, so in that sense you are good. Of course for any thing requiring yogurt or milk, there's always soy substitutes. So again, I think it is easily doable.

 

[bwells46]

Seriously, I watched a show once that seriously made the claim that dinosaur fossils are planted by disbelievers....

Sounds like those creation "science", young earth, mature earth, pseudo-spiritual wackos.

 

[redclover]

Tigress...many Asians living in Asia do not drink milk...and many are lactose intolerant. They eat a lot of soy products and have very low levels of breast cancer. Coincidence? I doubt it.
I can't remember the name of the book that talks about this...but I'll pass it along to you when I ask my mom. She is big on this milk stuff.

 

[tigress]

I've gotten some good Indian recipes from allrecipes.com. The best vegan cookbook is Vegan Planet. I think it has some Indian recipes. The other day I made a delicious chickpea curry (I forget what the real name of it was...maybe cholay?) from a recipe on allrecipes.com (I think)

 

[gujuDoc]

I've gotten some good Indian recipes from allrecipes.com. The best vegan cookbook is Vegan Planet. I think it has some Indian recipes. The other day I made a delicious chickpea curry (I forget what the real name of it was...maybe cholay?) from a recipe on allrecipes.com (I think)

Yup yup, cholay is right, although I'm not sure of the actual spelling of the word.

😀

 

[kylahs]

Tigress...many Asians living in Asia do not drink milk...and many are lactose intolerant. They eat a lot of soy products and have very low levels of breast cancer. Coincidence? I doubt it.
I can't remember the name of the book that talks about this...but I'll pass it along to you when I ask my mom. She is big on this milk stuff.

Many Americans do not drink milk (children by far consume most of our milk---adults much less). so how can we try to link milk consumption to breast cancer? Unless you're looking at the (adverse) developmental effects of milk on children. But there's little evidence for that.

 

[tigress]

Many Americans do not drink milk (children by far consume most of our milk---adults much less). so how can we try to link milk consumption to breast cancer? Unless you're looking at the (adverse) developmental effects of milk on children. But there's little evidence for that.

Nobody was linking milk consumption to breast cancer. One person brought up research that suggested a link between milk and osteoporosis. Another brought up the suggestion of a link between soy and breast cancer, which I also brought up, though I refuted it. Then redclover seemed to be linking high levels of soy in the diet to very low levels of breast cancer (in response to that, it may very well be a factor, but you also must consider genetics). It is possible that high levels of soy may be bad for you; on the other hand, there is a lot of research showing that soy is very good for you. Pick your research and go with it, I guess 😛

Also, American adults consume plenty of milk -- in cereal, coffee, ice cream, cheese, etc.

 

[LJDHC05]

Just a little side note that breast cancer, like most other cancers, is a combination of many factors and not something as easy as drinking milk. On Long Island there's an increased risk of getting breast cancer that can be attributed to the "suburban lifestyle" or to the presence of PCB's and persistent organic chemicals in the well water (LI's water is completely from wells). In Utah there is an increased level of breast cancer in Mormon women, a segment of the population that is historically at a low cancer risk (no smoking/drinking), that can be partially blamed on atomic testing that took place in the deserts outside of populous areas through the 70's. Two specific examples, different causes.

It has been postulated that there may be an elevated risk of breast cancer in american milk drinking women because of the hormones used to boost milk production in the dairy industry are incorporated into the milk we drink, thereby messing with the milk producing glands of women whose lactation is hormonally regulated. (make sense?)

I look at it this way: I will probably get cancer at some point in my life and die so I'll do my part not to let anything else get me in the meantime, I'll do what I enjoy and I'll help as many people as I can. 😀

 

[kylahs]

Nobody was linking milk consumption to breast cancer. One person brought up research that suggested a link between milk and osteoporosis. Another brought up the suggestion of a link between soy and breast cancer, which I also brought up, though I refuted it. Then redclover seemed to be linking high levels of soy in the diet to very low levels of breast cancer (in response to that, it may very well be a factor, but you also must consider genetics). It is possible that high levels of soy may be bad for you; on the other hand, there is a lot of research showing that soy is very good for you. Pick your research and go with it, I guess 😛

The post I replied to could very well have been an attempt at linking milk consumption to breast cancer. Here's the post:

Tigress...many Asians living in Asia do not drink milk...and many are lactose intolerant. They eat a lot of soy products and have very low levels of breast cancer. Coincidence? I doubt it.

Now that I reread it, it looks like the poster wants to raise the the possibility that 1. milk consumption is linked to breast cancer, 2. soy consumption is linked to reduced breast cancer rates, or 3. both.

I admit i jumped the gun by assuming #1. But again, the poster could very well have meant #1.

Also, American adults consume plenty of milk -- in cereal, coffee, ice cream, cheese, etc.

'plenty' is a strong word. Children are by far the primary cereal consumers. Coffee is mixed with only several teaspoons of milk (and non-dairy creamers (aka garbage) are used in many households). ice cream? maybe once a week? cheese? a few ounces a week?

 

[redclover]

yes im linking breast cancer to milk! think about all the hormones they pump into cows.

 

[gujuDoc]

Tigress...many Asians living in Asia do not drink milk...and many are lactose intolerant. They eat a lot of soy products and have very low levels of breast cancer. Coincidence? I doubt it.
I can't remember the name of the book that talks about this...but I'll pass it along to you when I ask my mom. She is big on this milk stuff.

This depends on the country. If you are talking on of the East Asian countries like Viet Nam, China, or Japan(although this is technically an island off of Asia), then you have a point.

If you are talking Indians, we generally consume a lot of milk or use milk products or milk itself.

We use cheese, yogurt, and milk for many dishes. i.e. paneer, rus malay, etc.

This brings me to another question.........

In all our discussions about how healthy milk is, are we taking into accounts differences between skim milk, 1% milk, 2% milk, whole milk, etc???

Generally speaking, skim or 1% = healthier then whole milk. So if you were to drink that, I doubt it would have as big of an adverse effect as drinking 3 cups of whole milk a day, for the rest of your life.

But let's hear y'all opinion on differences between skim vs. whole, etc. etc.

 

[kylahs]

Generally speaking, skim or 1% = healthier then whole milk. So if you were to drink that, I doubt it would have as big of an adverse effect as drinking 3 cups of whole milk a day, for the rest of your life.

But let's hear y'all opinion on differences between skim vs. whole, etc. etc.

I'd agree that if evidence indicates that the consumption of milk can bring adverse effects, then skim milk would bring the least of these effects (when compared to whole and 2%).

But I believe such evidence is lacking. And the claim that skim milk is healthier than whole milk is BS. Skim milk is effectively diluted whole milk. And what's wrong with whole milk? Show me the evidence.
Don't show me cancer. Or Alzheimer's disease, or any other adulthood diseases. American adults simply do not drink that much milk. In fact, there is a slight stigma associated with ordering milk at a restaurant, especially when you're among grown friends. You're 'supposed' to order alcohol or soda. You might get away with juice or iced tea. But milk?

 

[jhugti]

This is a myth propagated by unmarried people.

😀 😀 😀