now for something completely different

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Just because you're religious doesn't mean you're against gay marriage. Many of my Christian friends support it.

Christian for gay rights here.

Also, this thread is bringing the lulz with all the old tired arguments: bestiality, pedophilia, "you can still marry someone of the opposite sex," tradition, religion as law, blah blah blah... 🙄
 
TBH I feel as if I'm being discriminated against as I am a heterosexual male that wants to be able to be married to as many women at one time as I want. I don't think the state should be able to limit the number of female individuals I am allowed to enter a contractual union with at any given time. LEGALIZE POLYGYNY!

This can't work based on the logistics of what is brought in a legal sense by marriage. Health insurance policies can't support an unlimited number of spouses and green card marriages would be rampant.

Say you put your child for adoption. Do you have the right to choose a heterosexual couples for your child? If not, then is your right being infringed upon due to political correctness?

Say you sell your car to a used car dealer. Do you have the right to decide to whom they sell it? What are you talking about? If you cared what happened to the child (specifically), you wouldn't put it up for adoption.
 
Just because you're religious doesn't mean you're against gay marriage. Many of my Christian friends support it.

Again, I'm NOT against same sex marriage. Please don't put words in my mouth. Thank you very much. I am refuting the assertion that religion has nothing to do with the decision or political process in this country.

I already stated that I support equal right for same sex couples, just not calling apples oranges. If you want to legalize a new set up, then call it something new. We don't call burgerkings mcdonalds, girls boys. Are they equal, heck yeah, been that way, so why can't we do the same? Why must we call girls boys?
 
Christian for gay rights here.

Also, this thread is bringing the lulz with all the old tired arguments: bestiality, pedophilia, "you can still marry someone of the opposite sex," tradition, religion as law, blah blah blah... 🙄

My favorite is STATE'S RIGHTS!! Because it some states had their druthers, there would still be segregated school and restaurants
 
I think it's time for a marriage reality show battle of the preferences. Let's live track the divorce rates among gay men, gay women, and heterosexual couples. First one to fall more than 5% lower "till death do we part" success than the other two groups loses marriage rights.
 
Again, I'm NOT against same sex marriage. Please don't put words in my mouth. Thank you very much. I am refuting the assertion that religion has nothing to do with the decision or political process in this country.

I already stated that I support equal right for same sex couples, just not calling apples oranges. If you want to legalize a new set up, then call it something else. We don't call burgerkings mcdonalds, girls boys. Are they equal, heck yeah, been that way, so why can't we do the same? Why must we call girls boys?

If you're not against why must it be called something besides marriage? They easiest way to continue to discriminate against something is to prevent its integration. thought the country was past separate but equal
 
Again, I'm NOT against same sex marriage....If you want to legalize a new set up, then call it something new.

You contradict yourself. You are against same sex "marriage". You are for same sex "civil unionship" (or something). Why do you care so much what it's called?
 
I already stated that I support equal right for same sex couples, just not calling apples oranges. If you want to legalize a new set up, then call it something new. We don't call burgerkings mcdonalds, girls boys. Are they equal, heck yeah, been that way, so why can't we do the same? Why must we call girls boys?

You've made it clear enough with this "calling apples oranges" line that what really bothers you is changing the definition of marriage to include same-sex unions. But can you state a reason WHY redefining the word bothers you so much? Because if you really don't support discrimination based on sexual orientation, then why would making the term "marriage" less discriminatory bother you?

I think there may be a bigger issue than semantics going on here. Do you think your marriage would be devalued somehow if gay couples could use the same word for their relationships?
 
Also, this thread is bringing the lulz with all the old tired arguments: bestiality, pedophilia, "you can still marry someone of the opposite sex," tradition, religion as law, blah blah blah... 🙄

What's so funny? That's the reason gay marriage isn't protected by the 14th amendment.
 
I'm not arguing two different things, you're not understanding what I'm saying. Just because one group of people do not get access to certain types of things does not mean they are being deprived the right of equal protection. A man can have consensual sex with a man or a woman in this country. A man cannot have consensual sex with a 15 year old. Equal protection doesn't apply to the latter because consensual sex can still be an option, just with people of age. It's the same thing with marriage. A man can marry a woman and a woman can marry a man. Equal protection doesn't apply to a homosexual because they are not being deprived of the right to marriage.

Honestly, I would support a constitutional amendment prohibiting the state and federal government from recognizing any type of marriage. Strip benefits from everyone and start writing up individual business contracts.

And blacks weren't being denied the right to ride the bus, just the right to sit where they wanted. They can do something but just not the way they want to or the way that is fair. That's what your logic is.
 
This is a purely legal argument. So what? Are you concerned with what is legal, or what is right? Laws need to change to reflect valid ethics, not the other way around.

And laws need to change legally. I am concerned with what is right, but to accomplish what is right we need to do so legally while also respecting the rights of others. SSM is an issue of policy, people can disagree on taxes and someone can be right or wrong but ultimately it's up to the voters and the governing body to enact laws regarding tax policy. In a Democratic society and in states where they put up to popular vote the definition of marriage via state constitutional amendments it is completely legal and right for people to vote according to their beliefs and having an amendment added or not added.
Absolutely not. If the policy infringes on the rights of others who may not share the religious beliefs (as in this case), then it is unacceptable to use those religious beliefs as the basis for enacting such policy.

So do we need to start asking people in polling places if before they vote on an issue they formulated their opinion based on their faith? Would the guy that thinks homosexuality is "icky" and thus shouldn't be allowed in the definition of marriage have a more legally valid opinion than the person who's religious beliefs tell them that homosexuality is sinful and those relationships do not fit within God's plan for marriage? What about if someone supported SSM because their religious beliefs tell them it's not OK to judge others and that God allows for homosexual unions in marriage? Should their opinion be nullified because it comes from that person's religious beliefs?

If laws violate the Constitution they should be struck down. If SSM is a Constitutional right under the Federal Constitution then laws against it should be struck down in accordance with Constitutional law. However, under no circumstance should people be barred from voting or having their opinions made into law because they come from their religious beliefs. My opinion of the Constitution is that it's within a states' rights to uphold the traditional definition of marriage or to change the definition to include same sex relationships. It's the voters' Constitutional right to amend their state constitutions and have their opinions made into law regarding same sex relationships and marriage status. It would be a violation of free speech, the right to vote and religious freedom to say that because someone's opinions come from their faith that they cannot be made into law.
You're confusing your ethics with legality again. What do you mean when you say you think it's "acceptable"? You mean just because its currently lawful, you're ok with it regardless of whether it's right? The current law itself is unacceptable and needs to be changed. If that means we need a new constitutional amendment, so be it. I hope we get one.

That is what I mean. It's lawful and it's acceptable for a state to uphold traditional marriage or for another state to redefine marriage to include same sex relationships. I have my own views, but I also respect the views of others and their right to vote in their states. A state can make a law or amend their constitution to state that voters must present a valid government issued ID at the polling place before they can vote. Someone else may disagree and think it's a violation of rights and completely unethical. If the SCOTUS says it's a violation of Constitutional rights to require an ID then the law is ruled upon and discarded. If one side has a majority when put to vote then a law will be made reflective of the vote. One side can be right, the other side can be wrong (and that's purely up to personal beliefs). However, that doesn't mean that the law cannot be made and that it's unacceptable. If the law doesn't violate the Constitution (and I don't think traditional marriage violates the Constitution) and it is put to a vote then it becomes law regardless of if it's right or wrong and we all need to respect that although we have our beliefs and vote that others have them as well and we may lose political battles. Like I said before, I think that it is within the Constitution and within a states' rights to define marriage upholding the traditional definition or changing the dentition to include SSM. Someone can think it's unlawful discrimination or that it's completely wrong, but they still need to respect that others can disagree and vote and that the outcome may not be what they wanted. This goes for both sides of the issue. Unless the SCOTUS rules that SSM is a Constitutional right and that it's unlawful discrimination to uphold the traditional definition of marriage or unless a Constitutional amendment is added that makes SSM a Constitutional right that cannot be infringed upon then states and people can vote on the issue and bring about an outcome.
 
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And laws need to change legally. I am concerned with what is right, but to accomplish what is right we need to do so legally while also respecting the rights of others. SSM is an issue of policy, people can disagree on taxes and someone can be right or wrong but ultimately it's up to the voters and the governing body to enact laws regarding tax policy. In a Democratic society and in states where they put up to popular vote the definition of marriage via state constitutional amendments it is completely legal and right for people to vote according to their beliefs and having an amendment added or not added.


So do we need to start asking people in polling places if before they vote on an issue they formulated their opinion based on their faith? Would the guy that thinks homosexuality is "icky" and thus shouldn't be allowed in the definition of marriage have a more legally valid opinion than the person who's religious beliefs tell them that homosexuality is sinful and those relationships do not fit within God's plan for marriage? What about if someone supported SSM because their religious beliefs tell them it's not OK to judge others and that God allows for homosexual unions in marriage? Should their opinion be nullified because it comes from that person's religious beliefs?

If laws violate the Constitution they should be struck down. If SSM is a Constitutional right under the Federal Constitution then laws against it should be struck down in accordance with Constitutional law. However, under no circumstance should people be barred from voting or having their opinions made into law because they come from their religious beliefs. However, my opinion of the Constitution is that it's within a states' rights to uphold the traditional definition of marriage or to change the definition to include same sex relationships. It's the voters' Constitutional right to amend their state constitutions and have their opinions made into law regarding same sex relationships and marriage status. It would be a violation of free speech, the right to vote and religious freedom to say that because someone's opinions come from their faith that they cannot be made into law.


That is what I mean. It's lawful and it's acceptable for a state to uphold traditional marriage or for another state to redefine marriage to include same sex relationships. I have my own views, but I also respect the views of others and their right to vote in their states. A state can make a law or amend their constitution to state that voters must present a valid government issued ID at the polling place before they can vote. Someone else may disagree and think it's a violation of rights and completely unethical. If one side has a majority when put to vote then a law will be made reflective of the vote. One side can be right, the other side can be wrong. However, that doesn't mean that the law cannot be made and that it's unacceptable. If the law doesn't violate the Constitution (and I don't think traditional marriage violates the Constitution) and it is put to a vote then it becomes law regardless of it it's right or wrong and we all need to respect that although we have our beliefs and vote that others have them as well and we may lose political battles. Like I said before, I think that it is within the Constitution and within a states' rights to define marriage upholding the traditional definition or changing the dentition to include SSM. Someone can think it's unlawful discrimination or that it's completely wrong, but they still need to respect that others can disagree and vote and that the outcome may not be what they wanted. This goes for both sides of the issue. Unless the SCOTUS rules that SSM is a Constitutional right and that it's unlawful discrimination to uphold the traditional definition of marriage or unless a Constitutional amendment is added that makes SSM a Constitutional right that cannot be infringed upon then states and people can vote on the issue and bring about an outcome.

So we let people decide the rights of others? We should allow states to decide to desegregate schools or put it to a popular vote. That way we could make sure no minority is ever protected in this country.
 
And blacks weren't being denied the right to ride the bus, just the right to sit where they wanted. They can do something but just not the way they want to or the way that is fair. That's what your logic is.

Racial segregation is a COMPLETELY different topic from denying the right to gay marriage and it's absolutely pathetic that you would draw a parallel between a commerce clause violation and a false equal protection clause violation. That's not my logic at all.
 
Racial segregation is a COMPLETELY different topic from denying the right to gay marriage and it's absolutely pathetic that you would draw a parallel between a commerce clause violation and a false equal protection clause violation. That's not my logic at all.

At one point the rights of blacks weren't protected constitutionally. This issue follows that pattern. Tell me how this is SOOOO different.
 
So we let people decide the rights of others? We should allow states to decide to desegregate schools or put it to a popular vote. That way we could make sure no minority is ever protected in this country.

As I've said numerous times before. In my view I don't think that upholding the traditional definition of marriage violates a Constitutional right. Yes, the states can put it up to a vote and decide because it's not unconstitutional for a state to uphold traditional marriage or not and it is a policy issue. You can't discriminate based on race, that's clearly in the Constitution and legal racial discrimination was ended with Constitutional Amendments to force the Constitution to make such discrimination illegal.

It's a political issue, and as such one side can win and the other side can lose. We can believe and say that they are rights but that doesn't make it so. It's up to the SCOTUS now and to decide if it is a Constitutionally protected right or not or if it's unconstitutional for a state to uphold the traditional definition of marriage.
 
50 years from now the issue of gay marriage will seem exactly like the issue of interracial marriage seems to me now. Our kids (or maybe theirs) wont understand why there was ever a controversy. Anyone not on the side of equal rights for all are always going to be on the losing side of history.

owle out
 
Racial segregation is a COMPLETELY different topic from denying the right to gay marriage and it's absolutely pathetic that you would draw a parallel between a commerce clause violation and a false equal protection clause violation. That's not my logic at all.

The only thing that's a bit pathetic here is your lack of understanding of Con Law.
 
50 years from now the issue of gay marriage will seem exactly like the issue of interracial marriage seems to me now. Our kids (or maybe theirs) wont understand why there was ever a controversy. Anyone not on the side of equal rights for all are always going to be on the losing side of history.

owle out

👍👍
 
As I've said numerous times before. In my view I don't think that upholding the traditional definition of marriage violates a Constitutional right. Yes, the states can put it up to a vote and decide because it's not unconstitutional for a state to uphold traditional marriage or not and it is a policy issue. You can't discriminate based on race, that's clearly in the Constitution and legal racial discrimination was ended with Constitutional Amendments to force the Constitution to make such discrimination illegal.

It's a political issue,and as such one side can win and the other side can lose. We can believe and say that they are rights but that doesn't make it so. It's up to the SCOTUS now and to decide if it is a constitutionally protected right or not or if it's unconstitutional for a state to uphold the traditional definition of marriage.

The whole "it's not unconstitutional" argument is not valid. A lot of things that we see as backward now would once be defensible under that argument. Remember when slavery wasn't unconstitutional? Remember when denying women the right to vote wasn't unconstitutional? Really, all you're saying is "it's not unconstitutional, yet". How is sexual orientation any more different than race or gender or physical abilities?

We may end up with another Plessy v Feguson with everyone saying "see it's ok to have gay people have civil unions or complete denial of marriage". Separate but somewhat equal is fine. Eventually there will be a gay Brown and we can be done with this stupid argument. Just because the SCOTUS rules one way does not mean that it is right or won't be overturned in the future. Hopefully our current justices will learn from history and avoid being associated with Plessy 2.0.
 
If you're not against why must it be called something besides marriage? They easiest way to continue to discriminate against something is to prevent its integration. thought the country was past separate but equal

same logic apply to you, why must apples be called oranges? Actually since apples and oranges exist previously before as separate entities, I have more of the right to question why it now must be insisted to be called one and the same?
 
It's a political issue, and as such one side can win and the other side can lose. We can believe and say that they are rights but that doesn't make it so. It's up to the SCOTUS now and to decide if it is a Constitutionally protected right or not or if it's unconstitutional for a state to uphold the traditional definition of marriage.

Yes, but what do you want the SCOTUS ruling to be? When you had posted earlier that
I think SSM is and should remain a states' rights issue.
I interpreted that to mean you thought that the SCOTUS should not interfere. I'm saying that I think they should interfere and prevent discrimination, because a majority should not be allowed to deny the civil rights of a minority.
 
The whole "it's not unconstitutional" argument is not valid. A lot of things that we see as backward now would once be defensible under that argument. Remember when slavery wasn't unconstitutional? Remember when denying women the right to vote wasn't unconstitutional? Really, all you're saying is "it's not unconstitutional, yet". How is sexual orientation any more different than race or gender or physical abilities?

We may end up with another Plessy v Feguson with everyone saying "see it's ok to have gay people have civil unions or complete denial of marriage". Separate but somewhat equal is fine. Eventually there will be a gay Brown and we can be done with this stupid argument. Just because the SCOTUS rules one way does not mean that it is right or won't be overturned in the future.

The majority of states have laws or amendments defining marriage and excluding SSM from their definition. It has been this way for years. I don't know how you can rationally say that the "it's not unconstitutional argument" is not valid when clearly states have been doing it for years with no problems and currently it is not unconstitutional for states to do so. I'll concede my opinion that it's not unconstitutional for a state to legally uphold traditional marriage, but until the SCOTUS rules on that and if they chose to strike down a states' ability to uphold traditional marriage it is a valid argument to make.

I don't doubt that in the future SSM will be accepted in all states via policy change. More and more people are of the opinion that homosexuals should be allowed to marry and I share that opinion. However, unless we have a Constitutional Amendment saying so I don't think it's unreasonable or illegal for a state to uphold traditional marriage. Women were not allowed to vote until the 19th Amendment was ratified which then made it unconstitutional for a state to ban someone from voting based on sex. A change in the Constitution happened to make that unconstitutional. As the Constitution is now I don't think it's unconstitutional for people to have the right to vote on SSM or for states to define it either which way they want.

Yes, but what do you want the SCOTUS ruling to be? When you had posted earlier that I interpreted that to mean you thought that the SCOTUS should not interfere. I'm saying that I think they should interfere and prevent discrimination, because a majority should not be allowed to deny the civil rights of a minority.

Personally, I want the SCOTUS to uphold the right of voters and the states to uphold traditional marriage or for a state to redefine marriage to allow for same sex couples. I want them to rule DOMA unconstitutional because it violates a states ability to define marriage and denies legally wed homosexual couples in some states federal benefits. I think marriage needs to either be federalized where the fed takes that from the states or the individual states need to legally recognize same sex marriages via changing their sate constitutions that currently uphold traditional marriage and do not include same sex couples. I think that voters who disagree with my view on SSM have the right to vote and have their opinion made into law as well. I view SSM as an issue of policy and legal definitions of the term marriage, not an equal rights violation as it was with discrimination based on race or women being allowed to vote. I think the equal rights violation would occur in stripping away the rights of those who disagree with me and saying that they cannot vote or enact policy to define marriage and uphold the traditional definition. I think DOMA is unconstitutional because it violates this in preventing states from extending full legal benefits to legally wed same sex couples and because marriage is not a federal issue since it's a state issue. They are interfering with a states ability to enact laws within their jurisdiction and the federal government is overstepping their boundary with DOMA.
 
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The whole "it's not unconstitutional" argument is not valid. A lot of things that we see as backward now would once be defensible under that argument. Remember when slavery wasn't unconstitutional? Remember when denying women the right to vote wasn't unconstitutional? Really, all you're saying is "it's not unconstitutional, yet".

Exactly.
 
same logic apply to you, why must apples be called oranges? Actually since apples and oranges exist previously before as separate entities, I have more of the right to question why it now must be insisted to be called one and the same?

Apples and oranges are different. The point is that gays marrying and straights marrying should be the same thing.
 
Apples and oranges are different. The point is that gays marrying and straights marrying should be the same thing.

Exactly. They are not functionally different. Even the "procreation" argument doesn't hold water because same sex couples can adopt/conceive biological children and not all heterosexual couples can or want to have children.
 
At one point the rights of blacks weren't protected constitutionally. This issue follows that pattern. Tell me how this is SOOOO different.

You're comparing the enslavement of blacks to prohibiting same sex marriage? LOL

The only thing that's a bit pathetic here is your lack of understanding of Con Law.

I'm using precedent, you're using opinion. You sure about that?
 
You've made it clear enough with this "calling apples oranges" line that what really bothers you is changing the definition of marriage to include same-sex unions. But can you state a reason WHY redefining the word bothers you so much? Because if you really don't support discrimination based on sexual orientation, then why would making the term "marriage" less discriminatory bother you?

I think there may be a bigger issue than semantics going on here. Do you think your marriage would be devalued somehow if gay couples could use the same word for their relationships?

you insist it's discriminatory, when I see it as insisting calling apples oranges.

Why do I have a problem? That's a part of my marriage and identity. How would you like it if all the sudden people has to ask if you got a woman or man as a wife? Sorry, go get a new name of your own. There is plenty of chairs around, but this one's taken.
 
same logic apply to you, why must apples be called oranges? Actually since apples and oranges exist previously before as separate entities, I have more of the right to question why it now must be insisted to be called one and the same?

Because when pirates eat oranges, they prevent scurvy. When pirates eat apples, they don't.

When two people of different genders get married, ___________. When two of the same gender get married, ________.

Fill in those blanks and maybe I can understand.
 
you insist it's discriminatory, when I see it as insisting calling apples oranges.

Why do I have a problem? That's a part of my marriage and identity. How would you like it if all the sudden people has to ask if you got a woman or man as a wife? Sorry, go get a new name of your own. There is plenty of chairs around, but this one's taken.

You're biggest worry is that people are going to ask if you're gay? Seriously? How do you deal with people asking if you have a "real" doctorate since you're not an MD (I'm assuming you have a Pharm.D.)? Do you have a problem with people asking if you're wife is black or white?

The terms husband and wife still apply here. So a man saying he has a wife is implied to be straight. A man saying he has a husband is implying that he's gay.
 
You're comparing the enslavement of blacks to prohibiting same sex marriage? LOL



I'm using precedent, you're using opinion. You sure about that?

I'm using the previous denial of a right to a portion of our population as a comparison to the denial of a right to a portion of our population as an example. I'm using precedent.
 
you insist it's discriminatory, when I see it as insisting calling apples oranges.

Why do I have a problem? That's a part of my marriage and identity. How would you like it if all the sudden people has to ask if you got a woman or man as a wife? Sorry, go get a new name of your own. There is plenty of chairs around, but this one's taken.

Why do you have a problem with telling someone you have a wife? A part of your identity is that you're married to a woman, but you don't think you'd like if someone asks if you're married to a woman?

I have no problem answering that question, I imagine there are plenty of people who would just say they're married to a wonderful man/woman. Would you also be mad if a man called another man his spouse, because that's 'our' word? This just sounds so petty that I almost want to laugh.
 
I view SSM as an issue of policy and legal definitions of the term marriage, not an equal rights violation as it was with discrimination based on race or women being allowed to vote.

Why? Why is discrimination based on sexual orientation any better than discrimination based on race or gender?
 
You're biggest worry is that people are going to ask if you're gay? Seriously? How do you deal with people asking if you have a "real" doctorate since you're not an MD (I'm assuming you have a Pharm.D.)? Do you have a problem with people asking if you're wife is black or white?

The terms husband and wife still apply here. So a man saying he has a wife is implied to be straight. A man saying he has a husband is implying that he's gay.

Again, who said I care about if people think gay or not? Do you have an identity? Are you different than john doe over there? Does a bachelors in biology the same as BA in communications? If everyone is called a doctor, is your title worth anything? I got married, it means a man and a woman before God when we did. Sorry if I don't want to share or change into something else. Sorry, but this name's taken. There are plenty of other things you can call it, so don't butt into mine please.
 
Why? Why is discrimination based on sexual orientation any better than discrimination based on race or gender?

No. It's just as wrong to make someone sit in the back of the bus because they are a homosexual as it would be because someone is black. It's just as wrong to deny someone the ability to vote because they are homosexual as it would be if someone is a woman.

However, SSM is in regards to changing the definition of marriage. By and large traditionally and for hundreds of years in this country the common and accepted definition of marriage has been the union between one man and one woman. Love it or hate it, that's just the definition of the word here and the fact behind it. Definitions can be changed, and the definition of marriage can be legally changed to include same sex couples.

Is it discrimination that men are forced to sign up for selective service but not women? Is it discrimination that only men can be drafted but women are exempt? Is it discrimination that married people have increased benefits when compared to single people? Is it discrimination to have scholarship funds that are extended to people and denied to people based on race? Is it discrimination that in some states a person can marry their first cousin but they couldn't in another? Is it discrimination to have bathrooms that bar someone from the other gender from entering? Is it discrimination for some clubs to offer free entry to women but not men?

Where do we draw the line? Which acts of discrimination should be legal or illegal? That's where the Constitution plays its role. Yes, the traditional definition of marriage in the US discriminates against homosexuals and polygamists. Is that unlawful discrimination? That's for the SCOTUS to decide right now. Personally, I don't think it's unlawful even though I think banning SSM is wrong.
 
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Again, who said I care about if people think gay or not? Do you have an identity? Are you different than john doe over there? Does a bachelors in biology the same as BA in communications? If everyone is called a doctor, is your title worth anything? I got married, it means a man and a woman before God when we did. Sorry if I don't want to share or change into something else. Sorry, but this name's taken. There are plenty of other things you can call it, but don't butt into mine.

Meanings evolve. Times change.

Marriage used to be a man and a woman from the same race. Then it was a man and a woman period. When interracial marriage was legalized why didn't interracial couples have to call themselves something else? Very soon, it will mean 2 adults coming together in a common vow.
 
Meanings evolve. Times change.

Marriage used to be a man and a woman from the same race. Then it was a man and a woman period. When interracial marriage was legalized why didn't interracial couples have to call themselves something else? Very soon, it will mean 2 adults coming together in a common vow.

Correction, some definitions change. Marriage between races was not illegal during the majority of human history. Trying to use a few to justify the many is a fallacy. Marriage has been between man and woman as a constant tradition by far. Sorry, I see no reason or benefit to change that definition now.
 
Correction, some definitions change. Marriage between races was not illegal during the majority of human history. Trying to use a few to justify the many is a fallacy. Marriage has been between man and woman as a constant tradition by far. Sorry, there is no reason or major benefit to change that definition now.

I thought we're arguing the legal meaning of marriage in this country to which my post is perfectly valid. As a culture, we've done away with what's been OK for most of human history in terms of marriage. Several wives? That was traditionally OK but we've scrapped it. Marriages to very young women against their wills? Used to be OK but not anymore. Marriages to cousins? Mostly not OK anymore. The historical definition of this term has already changed so don't act like it's only ever meant just a consenting man and woman.
 
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Correction, some definitions change. Marriage between races was not illegal during the majority of human history. Trying to use a few to justify the many is a fallacy. Marriage has been between man and woman as a constant tradition by far. Sorry, I see no reason or benefit to change that definition now.

Why not? What valid reason is there behind not allowing same sex couples the ability to marry and have marriage benefits?
 
Definition of marriage has existed before the US and has been adopted/accepted by this country like everybody else. Sure you can argue that this country has sovereignty and can do whatever it wants within its own borders. But I think we both agree that when comes to an universal, religious and historical definition of something like marriage, we don't live in a vacuum.
 
Definition of marriage has existed before the US and has been adopted/accepted by this country like everybody else. Sure you can argue that this country has sovereignty and can do whatever it wants within its own borders. But I think we both agree that when comes to an universal, religious and historical definition of something like marriage, we don't live in a vacuum.

But what is the harm of allowing same sex couples to marry? What negative effect will it have on you or your marriage?
 
Definition of marriage has existed before the US and has been adopted/accepted by this country like everybody else. Sure you can argue that this country has sovereignty and can do whatever it wants within its own borders. But I think we both agree that when comes to an universal, religious and historical definition of something like marriage, we don't live in a vacuum.

That's the problem. Marriage's definition and qualifications are fluid. Marriage between two different religions used to not be tolerated by some churches. Now its OK. Same with race. We keep changing the qualifications to what is an acceptable marriage. The allowing gays to marry is just the next step in that fluidity of the term.
 
Why not? What valid reason is there behind not allowing same sex couples the ability to marry and have marriage benefits?

Another fallacy. The burden of proof is on the late comers to convince the established stakeholders "why yes", not "why not".
 
Another fallacy. The burden of proof is on the late comers to convince the established stakeholders "why yes", not "why not".

Ok, why yes? Because it's the morally and legally right thing to do.
 
Another fallacy. The burden of proof is on the late comers to convince the established stakeholders "why yes", not "why not".

I think a rational reason should still be given when it comes to defending the definition of traditional marriage. I think that homosexuals have convinced the established stakeholders as to why there is proof behind allowing them to wed. They feel love and are capable of making the same commitment as a heterosexual couple. Currently they have legal issues barring them from benefits that heterosexual couples may take advantage of with their legally recognized romantic partner. I think the case for allowing homosexuals to marry has been presented, but I don't think the opposition has provided a rational counter to the issue. I still think that the opposition has every right to believe what they want and vote however they want and that right should not be taken away, but when it comes to debate and reason behind that thinking I don't see why homosexuals should be barred from getting legally married.
 
See above.

The same faulty logic could have been applied to any expansion of civil rights in the past. It is not imperative on the minority to prove that allowing them equal rights benefits the majority in some way. If it was, we might still have segregation, no women's suffrage, bans on interracial marriage, etc.
 
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