Now I'm getting worried....

[pastelist]

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I'm wondering what you guys think about the following--
I was talking to a school dean, who told me that small programs like rad onc usually already have their own internal candidates already, and oftentimes interviewing is just a formality. In other words, he alluded I could get interviews at outside programs I had not rotated through, but getting in would be a different matter altogether 😕 , since schools prefer to be "safe" and pick students they already know-- to avoid choosing malignant personalities.
I thought about it, and realized that all the former med students that matched in rad onc from my med school either a. matched at my school or b. matched at a school where they had rotated.
I'm hoping someone knows of an example to the contrary, because now I'm starting to get worried about this whole process! I realize rotations give you an advantage, but I would like to think there is still hope left in the interview process!!

 

[Gfunk6]

Don't worry! What your Dean said has some truth in it, but it is by no means true all (or even most) of the time. I can name many applicants I know who matched into RadOnc departments that they saw for the first time during their interview.

As you say, rotations do carry some weight, but programs do not ignore applicants who do not rotate with them (rare exceptions exist).

 

[CNphair]

Don't worry...taking internal applicants is an overall trend, but I think most applicants match at programs they see for the first time on interviews. I did...and so did almost all of the friends I made on the interview trail. No need to panic!

 

[deleted4401]

Dr. McDreamy? Seriously? 🙂

Anyway, it's pretty common for people to take their own or people who have rotated b/c you spend all day with your residents. If they are a known quantity, they aren't gambling on whether or not they are going to be able to deal with that person for four years.

I'd say the better the program, the more likely they won't favor the internal candidates. The middle and lower tier programs seem to go with internal candidates. That's how it seems the last few years, at least. I'm sure that this year's match will prove that I don't know what I'm talking about.

-S

 

[CNphair]

Dr. McDreamy? Seriously? 🙂

Yep...it really pisses off my husband. 😉

I could go back to Maureen Dowd, but that just got people in the General Residency forum all riled up...

 

[stephew]

Remember, most places wont take only people who've rotated through. A good candidate that rotated through does have that advantage (and not so good ones make life easy for the commitee) but most places aren't filled with folks who've rotated. At harvard, we have more than enough harvard folks to fill a class, as well as folks from other schools rotating through. of course we take outside folks who haven't rotated through though.
the dean's comment has a kernal of truth in it but its hardly the whole picture. apply.

 

[deleted4401]

This is a list of schools that took their own ... come on! For the other programs, I'd say another 1/3 of the people rotated where they matched (i.e. Kaiser and USC both took people from LA schools).

Harvard
1. M.D./Ph.D., Washington University
2. M.D., HMS
3. M.D./Ph.D., Northwestern
4. M.D., HMS
5. M.D., HMS
6. M.D./Ph.D., HMS
7. M.D./Ph.D., HMS

U Penn
1. MD/PhD, U Penn
2. MD, U Michigan
3. MD, U Penn
4. MD/PhD, Penn State

Thomas Jefferson
1. MD, Jefferson
2. MD, HMS

U Florida
1. MD, U Florida
2. MD, Medical College of Wisconsin

University of Miami, Jackson Memorial
1. MD, University of Miami School of Medicine

Baylor
1. MD, Tulane
2. MD, Baylor

Washington University St Louis
1. MD, WashU
2. MD, Indiana

U Michigan
1. MD, U Michigan
2. MD/PhD Bowman Grey
3. MD/PhD, Albert Einstein

Loyola
1. MD, U Tennessee
2. MD, Loyola

U Cincinnati
1. MD, Medical College of Wisconsin
2. MD, U Cincinnati

Stanford
1. MD/PhD, U Chicago
2. MD, Stanford
3. MD, Stanford

 

[stephew]

youre right simul, its more than i think i realized, but in any event, the bottom line answer is still the same. if youre a good candidate, apply. youre not going to be thrown in the shredder just because you didnt rotate there and many who match have not.

 

[eidolon]

there is definitely a kernel of truth to what your dean said. it seems that the big names such as harvard and stanford did fill most of their spots with internal candidates last year, although i'm not how much of this was intentional. consider this, if your school has a strong rad onc program, why wouldn't you try to stay (especially if it's located in the gorgeous bay area)? rad onc is such a small field. unless you have a strong incentive to go elsewhere, your home institution probably offers the best chance of matching. i'm guessing that most applicants end up ranking their home institutions pretty highly on the list. that being said, if you are interested in a program other than your own, expressing a strong interest such as doing an away rotation or having a faculty lobbying on your behalf never hurt.

 

[stephew]

i can tell you at harvard it wasn't intentional. the optimal senario pre-rank was felt to be no more than half harvard. however ultimately they rank whoever they feel is best.

 

[deleted4401]

Regardless of what the results of past matches are, ideally you should apply to as many programs as you can and interview at as many as you can. The cost isn't high compared to the price of our education, and the benefit at being at a desirable program. You can't score if you don't shoot, you know?

Steph matched at Hopkins from a foreign school, and there are others (in the minority) that matched at places that they didn't rotate at. It can only happen if you interview there and rank it.

-Simul

 

[stephew]

also remember: the observation that people match where they rotate is also a measure of student ranking in part. that is folks will rank where they rotated very high/number one very often. many of these students likely would match elsewhere if they didnt do this. so you just dont "get the chance" to see this phenomenon.

 

[pastelist]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I was in an uncomfortable situation where my home institution wanted to know where I was hoping to match, and I didn't want to hurt my chances of matching at home by saying I wished to leave or stay. (I don't know whether I would like to stay or leave, anyway, without seeing other programs out there). If I had said I wanted to stay at home rad onc, it would have helped my chances-- but it wouldn't have been fully honest on my part. Have any of you have been in a similar situation? Even though I know the difficulty of matching in rad onc, I was hoping to see the different programs out there (hopefully if I get interviews), meet other candidates, and create a match list based on my impressions-- and then cross my fingers and hope for the best.

 

[eidolon]

i can tell you at harvard it wasn't intentional. the optimal senario pre-rank was felt to be no more than half harvard. however ultimately they rank whoever they feel is best.

man, that must have been tough. i remember meeting so many impressive people, harvard or not. if i were on the committee, i might as well pick names out of a hat.

 

[eidolon]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I was in an uncomfortable situation where my home institution wanted to know where I was hoping to match, and I didn't want to hurt my chances of matching at home by saying I wished to leave or stay. (I don't know whether I would like to stay or leave, anyway, without seeing other programs out there). If I had said I wanted to stay at home rad onc, it would have helped my chances-- but it wouldn't have been fully honest on my part. Have any of you have been in a similar situation? Even though I know the difficulty of matching in rad onc, I was hoping to see the different programs out there (hopefully if I get interviews), meet other candidates, and create a match list based on my impressions-- and then cross my fingers and hope for the best.

They really shouldn't be asking you those questions, especially this early in the process. I would reiterate your interest in your home program. If it's the only program you have seen upclose, then you probably do have a strong interest in it. Then after the interviews, if it remains your top choice, you can offer to tell them at that point.

 

[miamiradonc]

you forgot Miami on the list of schools that took their own🙂

 

[miamiradonc]

oops no u didn't😳

 

[stephew]

sometimes it feels like that but usually it comes down to personalities. there are a lot of impressive cv's out there. really the interview selection is the hardest. how do you decide to invite when so many are outstanding. once you meet them often there is a lot of self-filtering. some who may have been lower on the list from cv alone rise to the top. some who are strongest on paper sink like a stone at interivew. we've had this discussion on the boards before and i remain amazed how resistent students are to the notion but there it is and its the truth. you can discuss until the end of time the merits of an interview in distilling out character but while imperfect, it is effective. I know the rank list looks much different that it would if we went by cv alone.

man, that must have been tough. i remember meeting so many impressive people, harvard or not. if i were on the committee, i might as well pick names out of a hat.

 

[Pewl]

Just wondering, does anyone do two away rad onc rotations? There are two schools in mind that I'd like to do rotations at. Is this commonly done?

Thanks!

 

[CNphair]

Just wondering, does anyone do two away rad onc rotations? There are two schools in mind that I'd like to do rotations at. Is this commonly done?

Thanks!

Definitely. Some people even do three outside rotations...but two is very common. If your schedule allows, go for it.

 

[napoleondynamite]

I did 4. I felt that by doing as many away rotations as possible, I would optimize my match chances. We'll see if my strategy pans out in a few more months 😎

 

[stephew]

most certainly. good luck.

Just wondering, does anyone do two away rad onc rotations? There are two schools in mind that I'd like to do rotations at. Is this commonly done?

Thanks!

 

[Pewl]

Ugh, will it look really bad to rad onc residencies if you don't have any Honors in your first two years? I swear I always miss honors by like 1% or 2%. It's ridiculous. 🙁

 

[Adawaal]

I don't think it's all that pervasive that programs take mainly their own. My program has 6 residents, and only 2 went to school here. I think at most one of the other even did a rotation here prior to matching. Include last year's chief resident and our incoming resident for July 2007, and only 2 of 8 went to med school here.

 

[radonc]

it depends on the number and strength of the med students at the home institution...if there are many applying, i would think the PD would feel obligated to take at least one of their own (if they were as strong as outside applicants)...

 

[stephew]

Programs dont take candidates out of obligation. They may weight it if the candidate doesnt cut it, they dont make it. too much is at stake.

 

[radonc]

i think that a med student from a home institution with similar stats who is a known entity (and is well liked, etc) would have a higher probability of matching at his institution than an outside applicant who probably didnt rotate at that program...

 

[radonc]

and yes, i do think PD's feel 'obligated' to take their own med students if they are competitive...not only in radonc, but also in IM, surgery, FP, peds, and any other specialty.

 

[stephew]

that's a different senario.