now we scream about it, but what are we doing

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Janusdog said:
Why not? Just curious.

I could draw this out into a big answer but gist is this: I am not a good match for that career. I'm a better fit for other things. (if I go much further I risk being inflammatory without meaning to be) I have found that my psychology training puts me way ahead on patient interaction and "treatment compliance" issues during our time in the hospital.

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Anasazi23 said:
Hi Sasavan,
Interesting but impractical in the end. What this leaves out is the training that makes a psychiatrist just that - a physician with specialization in the specialty of psychiatry...the med school practicums, while invaluable, aren't enough. Experience as the responsible physician over medicine and surgical patients, ICU, CCU, ER, and neurology patients is essential for full understanding of the myriad masquerading syndromes you'll encounter as a psychiatrist. The model you propose gives no neurological or internal medicine training at the doctoral level which is standard in all psychiary residencies.

The MD/DO/Ph.D. is another possibility, but a Ph.D. in psychology would be strongly frowned upon, as this is almost universally assumed to be in a hard scientific discipline . You could conceivably do 8 years total (4 med school + 4 residency), and get a year of continuing ed in assessment totaling 9 years. Otherwise, you could (and some do) simply get assesment training as a psychitary attending at conferences in their free time, therefore totaling the same 8 years, excluding fellowship. Depending on the residency program, you get therapy training in multiple modalities througout the 4 years of residency...some more than others.

Hi Anasazi23,

RxP is something that I don't want to discuss with you because you know that it'll turn out like last time and we'll be arguing about who has the biggest APA...LOL :laugh:

Instead, I propose that if 10 yrs from now psychologists have RxP in 25 states that you'll buy me a drink, if not, its my treat; deal? :thumbup:

P.S. I have enjoyed your posts on your residency experience. I can honestly say that I've been impressed by how passionate and knowlegeable you are about psychiatry/medicine; I believe that you will probably make an exceptional physician. Very cool. I'm also impressed by your foresight in switching from psych PhD/PsyD to psych MD/DO. In some ways I wish I would have followed suit earlier on. Anyway, here's to that drink at the first APA convention we find each other at. :)

Peace.
 
Pterion said:
I am in the throes of the first semester of first year. My wife and I planned for almost four years before I applied. As for the specialty: all I can commit to at this point is that I will definitely NOT be going into psychiatry.

I knew where I wanted to go, so I only applied to state schools. The PsyD was well received by both. Keep me updated on your progress, I am sure you will do well.

CONGRATULATIONS.
That's awesome; hopefully, I'll be following in your footsteps in a couple of years, though, I will be pursuing psychiatry
Again, congratulations. :)
 
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This is from the American Psychological Assn Div 55 listserv, enjoy! :)

ASAP READER vol 3 #15 11-14-2004

Greetings ASAP Readers,

The virtual declaration of war against psychologists seeking prescriptive authority by Michelle Riba, President of the American Psychiatric Association, comes as no surprise. It should be a surprise only to those that have not been paying attention. My only surprise is the lack of a clear response from our colleagues. Sure, there were cries of outrage from some. There were conciliatory responses from others urging more educative efforts toward psychiatry. The educational response we should see is more psychologists signing up for training courses to document their expertise in psychopharmacology and the combined treatment of mental conditions with psychotherapy and psychotropics!

Riba?s establishment of a warchest was not about education (Psychiatric News Nov 5, 2004). It was about money and power?power to control the mental health market and incomes. If anyone missed this point, they need a refresher course in Business 101. It is time to restate basic health economics regarding the two conflicting trends: 1.) capturing more market share through increased specialization; 2.) reducing costs by treating health services as commodities by using evidence based treatment formulas that can be applied by masters level or even bachelor level technicians. Our academic psychological colleagues are the leaders of this latter thrust. Unless doctoral level psychologists can document they are mental health specialists, they will continue to compete with masters level therapists for the mental health market. Some of these masters and bachelor therapists can even prescribe medications e.g., mental health nurse practitioners and physician assistants.

The Academy of Medical Psychology offers a certificate as a Medical Psychologist to those who complete RxP training requirements and pass a national examination. The Academy is in process of creating a Board of Medical Psychology Examiners that will offer a Diplomate in Medical Psychology. For information go to Google and search Academy of Medical Psychology.

Many psychologists have held off obtaining training in psychopharmacology thinking they will wait until their state obtains prescriptive authority. This mistake is not being made in other professions. Physician Assistants and Nurse Practitioners, Optometrists, Podiatrists and other professions have sought the training first and then achieved the legal authority to prescribe. Presently, Nurse Practitioners, Clinical Nurse Specialists and Physician Assistants are consolidating their positions in the health and mental health markets as prescribing therapists for mental conditions. Psychologists are fiddling while other health professions are eating their lunch, their children?s college education and their retirement funding. It is time for psychologists to mobilize and become a full service diagnosing and treating profession.

In Arizona psychology ranks behind every major health profession in future demands for health services?behind Physician Assistants; Nurses; Mental Health and Substance Abuse Social Workers; Health and Diagnosing and Treating Practitioners, All Other; Psychiatrists; Mental Health Counselors; Rehabilitation Counselors. The anticipated growth for PAs is 78%, Nurses 58%, All other Health Diagnosing and treating professions 46%, Psychiatrists 39% and Psychologists 30%.

For documentation of market trends look at the projected job markets for various health professions. The US Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) annually forecasts the number people with specific training over the next 10 years for each state. Then the BLS summarizes this data on employment projections and publishes it as its Occupational Outlook Handbook. The data for 2003-2013 occupation projections are at www.workforce.az.gov. On the Arizona Workforce Informer home page at the bottom of the left hand column there is a ikon labeled "Related Sites." Click on it. The next page click on USMap Linked to All States LMI Websites (LMI= Labor Market Information). Click on the state of your choice and you will be able browse to see the projections of job opportunities in psychology in your state for the next 10 years. Some states even break this data down by counties. The Standard Occupational Classification System used by BLS lists psychologists under three different codes 19-3030 (psychologists), 19-3031 (clinical, counseling and school psychologists), and 19-3032 (industrial psychologists). Sadly, BLS does not consider psychology as a "diagnosing and treating" health profession. Psychology is classified as a social science instead.

APA?s efforts to have BLS change its classification of psychology to include its position as a "diagnosing and treating" health profession has fallen on deaf ears in BLS. [The Health Profession Classifications also includes "Technicians" and "Treating" categories in addition to "diagnosing and treating."] Perhaps we can prevail on one of our four psychologists Congressional Representatives to take this issue on with BLS. [Another side bar ? There are 8 Congressional Representatives with medical degrees and one Senator, Frist. Oklahoma elected Coburn who will join Frist in the Senate.]



For the past 15 years I have been advocating psychology attempt to determine what the market for psychological expertise is and refine our training programs to meet these societal needs. This was the theme of my APA Presidential address in 1992. The APA Board of Directors will be considering such a proposal at its December 2004 meeting according a response from Paul Nelson of the Educational Directorate.

In our personal communications, Pat De Leon brought to my attention how military personnel were being screened for mental health risks for duty in Iraq by pharmacy technicians. If the soldier is taking a psychotropic medication they are considered a risk. This just one example of the use of lesser-trained non-mental health personnel are used for mental health determinations. While this screening procedure makes sense, it should not be the only criterion for military assignments.

John Caccavale posted on this ASAP listserve (11-13-2004) an example of specialization encroachment of physicians on psychology. SCAN is an internet website for locating medical specialists in California. When you search SCAN for a psychologist you are referred to a list of non-psychiatric physicians. See the number of MDs listed as psychologists in Dr. Caccavale?s posting. Under California law physicians are not considered psychologists because they are not trained as such. Dr. Caccavale inquired about being put on the list of psychologists and was told they would be glad to put him on the list as soon as he affiliated with a medical group. This would be a restraint of trade requirement in my judgment.

The declaration of war on psychology by Riba opens up a myriad of opportunities for psychology to assert itself at the local state and national levels. Another example of an opportunity in California is that the state has never enforced its law giving psychologists staff privileges in state hospitals there. It is important that psychologist assert their professional expertise in every way we can. It is not just about prescriptive authority. We have become complacent in my ways. We must band together to eliminate barriers to our patient?s health care wherever we find artificial injustices. Forming local chapters of ASAP (Division 55) could be a first step in this process. By contacting your legislator in you our home district you will find these artificial barriers. When the legislator find he/she can help you as a constituent they will be more apt to try to help you in other ways as well. It only takes 5 members of Div 55 to form a local Chapter of the Division. Local Chapters can become the focal point to spearhead state initiatives in RxP and other issues.

Psychologists have forgotten that all politics is local. Political action must begin at home. This is why medicine relies heavily on county medical societies to form political alliances and be the backbone of its political clout for its state and national agendas. The success of the Practice Directorate has resulted in over-reliance on APA for solving local problems.

For the past few years we have focused on getting issues put on the agendas of state psychological associations and then have the state representative to APA Council place the issues on the APA Board and Committee agendas. This advocacy formula is cumbersome and takes an inordinate amount of time for an issue to become an actionable item on APA?s agenda. Even when the item is passed and funded it takes time to recruit the special staff to develop and implement the action plan. Often, the action plan requires active participation by the state association and we have come full circle. In the meanwhile our members

become disgruntled waiting for APA to act and disaffect from our organizations. They do not realize that they are failing themselves and blaming others instead.

If this push of agendas up to APA is the only means of producing change, then I fear for our profession. We must ardently support local psychologists banding together to deal with the issues that face them as a profession. When we have local action, it stimulates the excitement that draws members into the organization. This is where Division Chapters have a place in shaping professional trends in psychology.
 
sasevan said:
Hi Anasazi23,

RxP is something that I don't want to discuss with you because you know that it'll turn out like last time and we'll be arguing about who has the biggest APA...LOL :laugh:

Instead, I propose that if 10 yrs from now psychologists have RxP in 25 states that you'll buy me a drink, if not, its my treat; deal? :thumbup:

P.S. I have enjoyed your posts on your residency experience. I can honestly say that I've been impressed by how passionate and knowlegeable you are about psychiatry/medicine; I believe that you will probably make an exceptional physician. Very cool. I'm also impressed by your foresight in switching from psych PhD/PsyD to psych MD/DO. In some ways I wish I would have followed suit earlier on. Anyway, here's to that drink at the first APA convention we find each other at. :)

Peace.

I'm never one to turn down a beer. :thumbup:
Thanks for the nice comments regarding my still-at-present infantile knowledge/passion for psychiatry. Even though I've been in the field at least some time now (including grad school), I can honestly say that the more I see psychiatric patients in various settings, the more I realize I have so much more to learn; certainly much, much more before I will ever feel I am giving them the competent, comprehensive medical and psychiatric care they deserve.
 
I'd like to represent the side of the evil psychiatrists as devil's advocate, since I'm on that side....for debate purposes of course. :)

The listserv comment states....

edieb said:
.... If anyone missed this point, they need a refresher course in Business 101. It is time to restate basic health economics regarding the two conflicting trends: 1.) capturing more market share through increased specialization; 2.) reducing costs by treating health services as commodities by using evidence based treatment formulas that can be applied by masters level or even bachelor level technicians.

A few paragraphs later,
Psychologists are fiddling while other health professions are eating their lunch, their children?s college education and their retirement funding.

Sounds like economic interests to me..... :confused:

The Academy of Medical Psychology offers a certificate as a Medical Psychologist to those who complete RxP training requirements and pass a national examination. The Academy is in process of creating a Board of Medical Psychology Examiners that will offer a Diplomate in Medical Psychology. For information go to Google and search Academy of Medical Psychology.
Is the creation of a certificate a guarantee of acceptance of a subspecialty? What peer review board has approved this? What research has been done demonstrating the need? I'm hoping an outside agancy creates the pharmacology exams so as to be unbiased. What will the passing scores be? Why should simple training in psychopharm make one a "medical" psychologist? There are myriad other medical issues in which one should have competence in order to consider oneself "medical" anything - besides psychopharm. Seems awfully rushed to me in an attempt to appear more legit to legislators when the time comes.

Many psychologists have held off obtaining training in psychopharmacology thinking they will wait until their state obtains prescriptive authority. This mistake is not being made in other professions. Physician Assistants and Nurse Practitioners, Optometrists, Podiatrists and other professions have sought the training first and then achieved the legal authority to prescribe. Presently, Nurse Practitioners, Clinical Nurse Specialists and Physician Assistants are consolidating their positions in the health and mental health markets as prescribing therapists for mental conditions...
I wondered about this point earlier. I find it actually sort of arrogant that psychologists would just enter psychopharm programs that are created BEFORE it has been established that such a state would invoke these privilages. And what if the state legislators deem the attended coursework to be inadequate? It's an awfully big assumption that the training course created, which already greatly vary in quality, will be acceptable to their state's standards, no?
In Arizona psychology ranks behind every major health profession in future demands for health services?behind Physician Assistants; Nurses; Mental Health and Substance Abuse Social Workers; Health and Diagnosing and Treating Practitioners, All Other; Psychiatrists; Mental Health Counselors; Rehabilitation Counselors. The anticipated growth for PAs is 78%, Nurses 58%, All other Health Diagnosing and treating professions 46%, Psychiatrists 39% and Psychologists 30%.
At least there is a projected increase for psychology at all! This may not even be true in every state. Psychiatry has a less than 10% anticipated growth rate compared to psychology. Should psychiatrists be worried?
For documentation of market trends look at the projected job markets for various health professions. ..... Sadly, BLS does not consider psychology as a "diagnosing and treating" health profession. Psychology is classified as a social science instead.
Which technically it is. You are assuming that all psychologists a clinical practitioners. While it does seem unfair that psychologists, through implication are not practitioners, it does have elements of truth. Social psychologists and I/O psychologists may work in these fields and never see a patient. Further, many are academicians. They are therefore not "diagnosing and treating" health professionals.
APA?s efforts to have BLS change its classification of psychology to include its position as a "diagnosing and treating" health profession has fallen on deaf ears in BLS. [The Health Profession Classifications also includes "Technicians" and "Treating" categories in addition to "diagnosing and treating."] Perhaps we can prevail on one of our four psychologists Congressional Representatives to take this issue on with BLS. [Another side bar ? There are 8 Congressional Representatives with medical degrees and one Senator, Frist. Oklahoma elected Coburn who will join Frist in the Senate.]
The implication here is that physicians in the House and Senate is detrimental to psychologists? It was a physician that thwarted their own in the LA prescribing push allowing psychologists with no training in pediatric medicine or residency + fellowship (required of child psychiatrists) to prescribe to children, falsely stating that because he could do it as a family practitioner, so should psychologists.

...In our personal communications, Pat De Leon brought to my attention how military personnel were being screened for mental health risks for duty in Iraq by pharmacy technicians. If the soldier is taking a psychotropic medication they are considered a risk. This just one example of the use of lesser-trained non-mental health personnel are used for mental health determinations. While this screening procedure makes sense, it should not be the only criterion for military assignments.
While I agree that this practice, if true, raises my eyebrows, I think it's pretty damn ballsy for psychologists, who currently do not, and may never have universal acceptance as competent prescribers already begin picking on "lesser-trained" practitioners performing mental health-related duties.
John Caccavale posted on this ASAP listserve (11-13-2004) an example of specialization encroachment of physicians on psychology. SCAN is an internet website for locating medical specialists in California. When you search SCAN for a psychologist you are referred to a list of non-psychiatric physicians. See the number of MDs listed as psychologists in Dr. Caccavale?s posting. Under California law physicians are not considered psychologists because they are not trained as such. Dr. Caccavale inquired about being put on the list of psychologists and was told they would be glad to put him on the list as soon as he affiliated with a medical group. This would be a restraint of trade requirement in my judgment.
Most healthcare practitioners have been adversely affected by the classification and reimbursement system of managed care and governmental payee influence.
The declaration of war on psychology by Riba opens up a myriad of opportunities for psychology to assert itself at the local state and national levels. Another example of an opportunity in California is that the state has never enforced its law giving psychologists staff privileges in state hospitals there. It is important that psychologist assert their professional expertise in every way we can. It is not just about prescriptive authority. We have become complacent in my ways. We must band together to eliminate barriers to our patient?s health care wherever we find artificial injustices. Forming local chapters of ASAP (Division 55) could be a first step in this process. By contacting your legislator in you our home district you will find these artificial barriers. When the legislator find he/she can help you as a constituent they will be more apt to try to help you in other ways as well. It only takes 5 members of Div 55 to form a local Chapter of the Division. Local Chapters can become the focal point to spearhead state initiatives in RxP and other issues.
Oh, so now it's about "eliminating barriers to our patient's health care" again? What happened to "eating your lunch" and planning for retirement funding? Glad to see you've come back around to the wholesome fight. Tit-for-tat battles now in the states? Exerting hospital privilages? Sounds exciting. If a psychologist admits a psychiatric patient, is the attending psychiatrist then expected to care for that patient? Be careful who's hand you bite. If you're so concerned about removing barriers to your patients' care, remember who will be actually taking care of your patients in the hospital.
Psychologists have forgotten that all politics is local. Political action must begin at home. This is why medicine relies heavily on county medical societies to form political alliances and be the backbone of its political clout for its state and national agendas. The success of the Practice Directorate has resulted in over-reliance on APA for solving local problems.

....

If this push of agendas up to APA is the only means of producing change, then I fear for our profession. We must ardently support local psychologists banding together to deal with the issues that face them as a profession. When we have local action, it stimulates the excitement that draws members into the organization. This is where Division Chapters have a place in shaping professional trends in psychology.
I think the psychologists have a good scam running with the "we'll run to provide prescribing practitioners in the most desolate areas of the underserved deserts and swamplands" tenant. No governor wants to be dubbed the "bureaucrat that voted to cut critical health care access to the mentally ill."
 
I have to agree with Anasazi that that article was pretty craptastic.
 
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