NPs can now do dermatology residencies

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Not messing with you...lol...I generally like DO's. they seem pretty nice and they know what MD's know. I dont see the difference between a DO or an MD at all, except that DO's can do osteopathic manipulations and can go to a DO residency. There are even DO/MD residencies where they both do residency together, so what is the difference?

(Um well its scary because some people will be bred to think that NPs are real medical doctors, but people just need to remember and realize they don't go to the exact same residency as an MD or DO, so it is not the same thing)....i bet the person that developed that was having manic bipolar delusions, but what are we supposed to do now that it has come into play? it is dangerous to call them doctor as if they're a medical doctor because its not the same thing.

BTW I was a resident..trying to find residency again..I'm an MD but Im an IMG. I took all the USMLE's though. ;D

I think you confused OD which is an Optometrist with DO which is a physician/Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine. Ophthalmologists are MD or DOs who complete medical school and a full residency in Ophthalmology. DO =/= OD ... I think this may be where your confusion came in my post.

I wasn't talking at all about MD vs DO ... your assumptions concerning this issue seem right to me.

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This is a poor excuse to allow nurses to be practicing medicine/dermatology.

I've been following this DNP issue for over a year now. Many physicians predicted that once they are given independent rights, they will fight for equal pay. Once they get equal pay, they will infiltrate the high paying specialties. And that is EXACTLY what is happening now. Almost like clock work.

THEY MUST BE STOPPED.

I was only commenting on another poster's question about a derm shortage, I said nothing about this being a valid reason for the nurses. Calm yourself.
 
The main impetus for these so-called "residencies" is the fact that the standard NP curriculum is seriously lacking. They even admit as much.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6366/is_6_20/ai_n31152731/pg_3/?tag=content;col1

One deficiency in NP programs is dermatology education. There is no requirement for a standardized dermatology curriculum or practicum...Currently, there is minimal dedication toward dermatology training with respect to the clinical requirements of any advanced practice or nursing program. The Nurse Practitioner Primary Care Competencies in Adult, Family, Gerontological, Pediatric, and Women's Health by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (2002) do not specifically address the requirement for dermatologic curriculum and outcomes as a part of these specialty core competencies. In an earlier study that compared the ability of NPs to non-advanced practice dermatology and oncology nurses to detect melanoma and non-melanoma skin cancers, NPs had lower overall knowledge despite the higher level of formal education. The recognition of melanoma between the three groups was 54% to 68% sensitivity. Recognition of premalignant lesions and benign lesions scores were lower (Maguire-Eisen & Frost, 1994).
 
i like to give these folks the benefit of the doubt, but the reality is that they are nowhere in the universe of being able to practice independently. i often think that if we were to focus on just clinically relevant material that we could probably cut medical school down to 2-3 years and have similarly compentent physicians. i know several PAs that were very knowledgeable after their initially training and i think if we were to implement medical student standards we could really get it done without losing too much meaningful clinical knowledge (we don't really need to memorize amino acid structure or learn how iron interacts with bacteria, etc. to be good clincians).

with this said, though, even after a rigorous 4 years of medical school, medical school graduates are NOT ready for indepent practice. I'm sure if any of us residents reflects on this, we at some point believed we could do it, but as you progressed through residency, it is a humbling experience to realize how much you don't know or never learned in medical school. these NPs and other midlevels seeking independence are probably of a similar mindset because they are ignorant of just how many gaps in their knowledge exist. keeping in mind that most med students are usually much brighter individuals than most NP students (sorry, but it's true...) and that medical school curriculum is much more rigorous, I can't even begin to imagine how ignorant some of these individuals might be.

these NPs have the mindset of an overly confident medical student. and as absurd as it is to consider a recent medical school graduate running an indpendent practice, it's even more absurd to consider that an NP can do so.

as the saying goes, "he who doesn't know he doesn't know, is a fool."
 
The main impetus for these so-called "residencies" is the fact that the standard NP curriculum is seriously lacking. They even admit as much.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6366/is_6_20/ai_n31152731/pg_3/?tag=content;col1

that's because if they really wanted to be competent to practice independently, they'd need just as much training as a physician.

there is an actual, legitimate reason why physicians have to complete a residency. to any physician this is pretty obvious, but ignorance breeds false confidence.
 
I KNOW!!!!

I was just thinking the same thing myself.

Especially since DermPath Fellowship-trained Board Certified Dermatologists have a hard time calling some cases of melanoma gross and microscopically.

I guess they're just so un-smart.
That's what biopsies are for. Your argument is a red herring. The fact that nobody can diagnose melanoma definitely by looking at it with their naked eye is not pertinent to the discussion. Do you think learning about sodium and potassium channels is going to improve the likelihood of finding melanoma? How about all of those COPD and CHF exacerbations admitted during internship? I'm sure a dermatologist or dermpathologist are more likely to be better at picking out melanoma but not because they trained in medical school or internship, they are better because they see more melanomas. I don't see why a nurse practioner who specializes in melanomas and sees enough cases won't be able to spot melanomas as well as a dermatologist. I am sorry, but derm is not brain surgery. The clinically relevant pathophysiology of a melanoma is not that complex. Stop kidding yourself.
 
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If you think you're qualified to do a primary care docs job, and if you feel you should be paid equally for doing the same work, then why do RN's make less than BSN's? You answer that question and you'll see why you're completely wrong in thinking you deserve the same pay for havin a fraction of our education.
 
Originally Posted by Eta Carinae
I KNOW!!!!

I was just thinking the same thing myself.

Especially since DermPath Fellowship-trained Board Certified Dermatologists have a hard time calling some cases of melanoma gross and microscopically.

I guess they're just so un-smart.
That's what biopsies are for.

:eek:

Did you really go to med school?

Reread my post. And if you don't get it the second time around, you should rip your diploma- the one that says "MBBS"
 
That's what biopsies are for. Your argument is a red herring. The fact that nobody can diagnose melanoma definitely by looking at it with their naked eye is not pertinent to the discussion. Do you think learning about sodium and potassium channels is going to improve the likelihood of finding melanoma? How about all of those COPD and CHF exacerbations admitted during internship? I'm sure a dermatologist or dermpathologist are more likely to be better at picking out melanoma but not because they trained in medical school or internship, they are better because they see more melanomas. I don't see why a nurse practioner who specializes in melanomas and sees enough cases won't be able to spot melanomas as well as a dermatologist. I am sorry, but derm is not brain surgery. The clinically relevant pathophysiology of a melanoma is not that complex. Stop kidding yourself.

You're a perfect example of what's wrong with doctors right now.

Going through this whole process with such blinders on, with such a naturally vicious and competitive attitude that when a real world, serious issue falls on the table, you see it as an opportunity to belittle DOs and Dermatology.

Jesus. I've been ranting the entire day, wondering why in the world docs wouldn't unite and fight this thing, but I guess I have my answer.

Don't bitch in two years with NPs are invading your realm.
 
:eek:

Did you really go to med school?

Reread my post. And if you don't get it the second time around, you should rip your diploma- the one that says "MBBS"

Oh so now you want to rip the IMG's apart and insult them for no reason? My dad had one of those and specialized in the USA. so did a bunch of others!
 
Oh so now you want to rip the IMG's apart and insult them for no reason? My dad had one of those and specialized in the USA. so did a bunch of others!

No offense to your dad or any other IMG/FMG. I was just kidding.

Although, it is difficult to imagine that anyone, having rotated through the system in this country in undergrad medical education and hence having an understanding of the role of DermPaths, would make such a statement as filter made.

Of course, it COULD still happen.

So I guess my response should have read MBBS or MD.

:oops:
 
This seems like a pretty silly complaint to me.

We live in a free market. The viability of a NP in Derm is regulated by their demand. Their demand is regulated by the utility of the service they provide.

If you do not like it, provide a better service with more utility.

Of course a Dermatologist has much more expertise than a NP in Derm. The question then arises, do they provide more utility for their cost?
 
I think if anyone wants to be equivalent to a medical doctor they should just go to med school and do residency. They should make an RN or NP track to MD so they can convert over. There is a PA to MD track. The NP residency is not equivalent to a medical doctors residency whatsoever no matter how easy anyone thinks the study of dermatology is. I wonder if filter is in derm? derm is very difficult. there are so many pathologies of skin conditions, and some are systemic, etc. i dont know if an NP is trained to understand those complexities like a medical doc would.
 
Why are you wasting your time making absurd comparisons between DOs vs DNPs, and not worrying that a bunch of nurses are about to do what your primary care colleagues (and specialists now) do with less training and the same pay?

They are basically saying your degree and your education are worth toilet paper b/c we can do what you do but better.

Medicine isn't rock science but it's also not easy and shouldn't be delivered by people who were not meant to be in medical school to begin with!


Two things need to be done.
1) Stop allowing ourselves to be considered equal in quality. Opt out of the system and stop taking insurance. Leave the scraps of crappy insurance payors for the less qualified.
2) We need start emphasizing that we are PHYSICIANS. Not just doctors, since everyone is a doctor. But few are PHYSICIANS. Some states do let DCs, homeopaths, podiatrists and natrupaths call themselves physicians though. Advertise this fact when and where you can. You are a physician, not just a doctor.
 
This seems like a pretty silly complaint to me.

We live in a free market. The viability of a NP in Derm is regulated by their demand. Their demand is regulated by the utility of the service they provide.

If you do not like it, provide a better service with more utility.

Of course a Dermatologist has much more expertise than a NP in Derm. The question then arises, do they provide more utility for their cost?

LOL.

1. It's not a free market. The 'market' is driven by Medicare. Medicare says what is what, and other companies follow. If Medicare pays these derm NP's, others will to. If these derm NPs accept a certain person's insurance, they will go to them. That isn't competition.

2. Calling it a 'demand' is asinine because there are obviously a lot of patients for a smaller number of dermatologists. Despite what the government wants you to think, taking optimal care for many and reducing it to ****ty care for more is not an effective strategy. Of course these people will be able to find patients ... this is their advertisement: Dr Nurse, Dermatologist - we accept x insurances. Again, that isn't a demand for this NP, nor is it even a fair representation of X vs Y ... or choice within the market. It's misleading and dangerous.

3. Let me give you another example ... we live in a free market, right?? Demand, ROI, quality of service drives it??? Okay ... so why don't I drive up to Las Vegas tonight and fight Mayweather??? It's a free country, and not only that ... I'm much, much cheaper than a paying for another professional fighter, AND the fight will be awesome because I'll be slaughtered. Shouldn't I be able to step up and give the people what they want???

No, absolutely not. I'm not trained, I don't have the experience, and there will be negative consequences for NUMEROUS parties if I step up and try to enter this arena simply because it's feasible and more cost effective.

Obviously a lot of hyperbole there ... but you get the point:

Letting NP's into this derm market isn't free competition, it isn't based on the services they provide, and all it will do is offer poorer care to a larger number of individuals (basing this strictly on a comparison of the residency training stats) and put SO much strain on real derms through insane referrals.

These NPs will be flooded with stuff that is way above their paygrade, and every single thing they can't handle will be pushed off to the derms who couldn't see the patient in the first place.

This is assuming that the derms don't get smart and refuse to see referrals from DNPs.
 
You're a perfect example of what's wrong with doctors right now.

Going through this whole process with such blinders on, with such a naturally vicious and competitive attitude that when a real world, serious issue falls on the table, you see it as an opportunity to belittle DOs and Dermatology.

Jesus. I've been ranting the entire day, wondering why in the world docs wouldn't unite and fight this thing, but I guess I have my answer.

Don't bitch in two years with NPs are invading your realm.
:thumbup:

I second this, Its only a matter of time until the nurses say filters specialty isnt hard we can do that too.

I dont know how anyone can go through all the training we do and think someone with probably less than half can do a better (or even just as good) a job.

Physicians should refuse to take referrals from DNPs, see how well their "advanced" training helps then.
 
Just a couple thoughts that come to mind.

First off, I don't see the point of this whole derm residency thing. My roommate first year went to a derm to get botox and was seen by a NP who did treatments for her a couple of times. She found out my roommate was a med student and proceeded to tell her what a better deal it was being a NP and that she makes $180k a year. Nice. Can't vouch for the truth in the number, I'm just repeating.

Second, I don't want to be the patient of a NP. I have been mostly unimpressed every time I have seen a midlevel. This was part of what led me to choose med school vs. being a PA. Sorry to anyone that offends, but one of my biggest fears as government exands its control over things is that we will be forced to see whoever is assigned to us via some stupid medical home or other such BS. If legal equivalency is reached there may be little a person can do to control who they see. No thanks.
 
That's what biopsies are for. Your argument is a red herring. The fact that nobody can diagnose melanoma definitely by looking at it with their naked eye is not pertinent to the discussion. Do you think learning about sodium and potassium channels is going to improve the likelihood of finding melanoma? How about all of those COPD and CHF exacerbations admitted during internship? I'm sure a dermatologist or dermpathologist are more likely to be better at picking out melanoma but not because they trained in medical school or internship, they are better because they see more melanomas. I don't see why a nurse practioner who specializes in melanomas and sees enough cases won't be able to spot melanomas as well as a dermatologist. I am sorry, but derm is not brain surgery. The clinically relevant pathophysiology of a melanoma is not that complex. Stop kidding yourself.

I don't think you have ever spent time at a dermatology clinic, with a real dermatologist, or even at an American hospital (!), because your post was completely ignorant and oblivious for numerous reasons.

By the way, the "microscopic" part of "gross + microscopic" is the biopsy mentioned, the one that dermpath-trained fellows argue about - you completely missed the point. Anyone can find melanoma. Hello, ABCD screening campaigns. Even grandma can find melanoma these days. The reason doctors get paid the big bucks is because of vast clinical experience and scaffolds of clinical knowledge. There are many cutaneous manifestations of systemic disease, and many more being published these days, not to mention new monoclonal antibodies that didn't even exist when you or I studied pharmacology, targeting inflammatory pathways and receptors that no nurse practitioner has even dreamed about. The fact is, we have biological matrices on which to say "give them a TNF blocker", predict its side effects based on mechanism, know what it means to see lymphocytes on a slide, or know about basement membrane invasion and metastasis to predict behaviors. We may not remember all of that in great detail, but it only takes a few seconds to jog those cells when required, and is useful especially with zebras. That is the difference between a doctor and a mid level. Just examples, but I hope you decide to think more abstractly. When you think about good outcomes in terms of "number of melanomas spotted", I'm sure some computer scientist could come up with an algorithm that beats us all. It's not about that. Hospitals are charting outcomes these days based on stupid things like "time to first antibiotic dose" - you know how clinically irrelevant (and potentially lethal) that is, when that time-pressured intern just created super-VRE.

When the public pays for a doctor, it pays for a clinical gestalt, not an automaton programmed to do 3mm punch biopsies at command. NP's, esp with this "residency" are the clinical equivalent of the computer readout on an EKG. Probably have seen many more EKG's than you have, but your knowledge is still vital. How many more lives can they save? Who knows unless it's yours, right?
 
Let me get this straight. Thousands of medical students who would sell their left kidney to prescribe topical steroids and inject botox for a living can't. Yet some NP can waltz right in and open her own cush derm practice on the upper east side. Seriously?:eek:

When I started this glorious path on becoming a physician ten years ago, I never would've conceived of "NP's doing derm residencies". Come to think of it, this is the most nauseating thread I've come across on SDN yet.:barf::barf::barf:
 
Let me get this straight. Thousands of medical students who would sell their left kidney to prescribe topical steroids and inject botox for a living can't. Yet some NP can waltz right in and open her own cush derm practice on the upper east side. Seriously?:eek:

When I started this glorious path on becoming a physician ten years ago, I never would've conceived of "NP's doing derm residencies". Come to think of it, this is the most nauseating thread I've come across on SDN yet.:barf::barf::barf:

Yup ... this has been the worst thing I've seen on SDN as well.
 
For the safety and well-being of our patients, it is imperative that dermatology NPs receive formal academic training and demonstrate competency through board certification. In time, the Florida Board of Medicine's perceptions of nurse practitioner practice may improve when future studies show that the development of these formal dermatology educational programs improves diagnostic and treatment skills and positive patient outcomes.

The above is from the OP. It appears the board of medicine of Florida doesn't approve just yet as they say it needs to improve their perceptions of NP practice.

hmmm....that means DNP dermatologists are not standard just yet........
 
You're a perfect example of what's wrong with doctors right now.

Going through this whole process with such blinders on, with such a naturally vicious and competitive attitude that when a real world, serious issue falls on the table, you see it as an opportunity to belittle DOs and Dermatology.

Jesus. I've been ranting the entire day, wondering why in the world docs wouldn't unite and fight this thing, but I guess I have my answer.

Don't bitch in two years with NPs are invading your realm.

Pay no attention to filter07. In another thread, he was trying to convince people that we should cut out the first year of medical school, including basic physiology because it has nothing to do with the practice of medicine (he said tyrosine kinases/second msger pathways and heat shock proteins have no value when practicing medicine and didn't see the clinical significance of such topics). Apparently anything that is not related directly to his field of study is a waste of time in medicine...talk about missing the big picture.
 
The above is from the OP. It appears the board of medicine of Florida doesn't approve just yet as they say it needs to improve their perceptions of NP practice.

hmmm....that means DNP dermatologists are not standard just yet........

That doesnt mean physicians as a group can just sit back and not do anything about it.

Theyre already in primary care and anesthesia, its only a matter of time (or letter after their name) till they start pushing into other specialties.
 
LOL.

1. It's not a free market. The 'market' is driven by Medicare. Medicare says what is what, and other companies follow. If Medicare pays these derm NP's, others will to. If these derm NPs accept a certain person's insurance, they will go to them. That isn't competition.

Someone with medicare has a choice in who will provide them service. If they are not treated well by the NP, they will seek service elsewhere. If word of mouth spreads that someone recived poor care at the NP, or that the NP was unable to treat their problem the demand for the NP is going to fall. Consumers have a right to choose.

2. Calling it a 'demand' is asinine because there are obviously a lot of patients for a smaller number of dermatologists. Despite what the government wants you to think, taking optimal care for many and reducing it to ****ty care for more is not an effective strategy. Of course these people will be able to find patients ... this is their advertisement: Dr Nurse, Dermatologist - we accept x insurances. Again, that isn't a demand for this NP, nor is it even a fair representation of X vs Y ... or choice within the market. It's misleading and dangerous.
People have a right to make poor choices. The market determines the viability of the provider to continue providing sub par car. For example, litigation is going to obviously play a large role for NP Derm providers who are fractionally as skilled as a Dermatologist. How viable will these practices be when the first round of litigation for inaccurate diagnosis and mistreatment comes? How many people will chose to go to the NP if there is terrible word of mouth about the practice?

On the other hand, if little Suzie has an acne problem and wants to see a Derm NP, that is her choice. Should the Dermatologist want little Suzie's business it is up to them to demonstrate greater utility and earn that share of the market. If they can't, tough.

3. Let me give you another example ... we live in a free market, right?? Demand, ROI, quality of service drives it??? Okay ... so why don't I drive up to Las Vegas tonight and fight Mayweather??? It's a free country, and not only that ... I'm much, much cheaper than a paying for another professional fighter, AND the fight will be awesome because I'll be slaughtered. Shouldn't I be able to step up and give the people what they want???
While I'm sure there is some morbid market to see you get your brains beat out, I'm not sure that I or many others would tune in. The market for a Mayweather fight is based on the fans willing to pay a price to see two highly skilled fighters go at it. What would the market be to see you get your brains bashed in? I'm not sure there is one, but if you want to try to sell this poor product, you go for it! The market will determine its viability.

Letting NP's into this derm market isn't free competition, it isn't based on the services they provide, and all it will do is offer poorer care to a larger number of individuals (basing this strictly on a comparison of the residency training stats) and put SO much strain on real derms through insane referrals.
You hit the nail on the head as to why we should allow the market to decide this issue. Physicians who enter Derm are arguably among the cream of the crop. A simple glance to Derm residency step 1 averages demonstrates this. The consumer will have to decide between seeing an incredible able physician and a NP with much less knowledge and skill. We can expect that there will be worse outcomes for patients who see the provider who has much less skill. This is exactly why patients will make a choice to seek the Dermatologist over the NP. It may cost more, but there is obviously more demonstrated utility.

These NPs will be flooded with stuff that is way above their paygrade, and every single thing they can't handle will be pushed off to the derms who couldn't see the patient in the first place.

This is assuming that the derms don't get smart and refuse to see referrals from DNPs.
You make another excellent argument for allowing choice and the market to dictate this matter. The derm NP will have a much smaller professional knowledge base to work from. They will be unable to handle much of what they see. With less skill they will be poor practitioners and patients will seek care elsewhere. Should people decide to seek poorer quality of care we have to let them. Maybe this can be a start to improving our gene pool since ED's have been making it so shallow

I cannot see there being a large market for Derm NP's. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to try and fail.
 
That doesnt mean physicians as a group can just sit back and not do anything about it.

Theyre already in primary care and anesthesia, its only a matter of time (or letter after their name) till they start pushing into other specialties.

I don't see NP's with futures in surgical specialties, radiology, a few others... Woohoo!
 
Someone with medicare has a choice in who will provide them service. If they are not treated well by the NP, they will seek service elsewhere. If word of mouth spreads that someone recived poor care at the NP, or that the NP was unable to treat their problem the demand for the NP is going to fall. Consumers have a right to choose.

People have a right to make poor choices. The market determines the viability of the provider to continue providing sub par car. For example, litigation is going to obviously play a large role for NP Derm providers who are fractionally as skilled as a Dermatologist. How viable will these practices be when the first round of litigation for inaccurate diagnosis and mistreatment comes? How many people will chose to go to the NP if there is terrible word of mouth about the practice?

I'm a huge libertarian proponent of the free market, too.

BUT

You totally missed what Jagger was saying.

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A FREE MARKET COUNTRY.

Read that again. Seriously. I'll type it again for you:

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A FREE MARKET HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

Who you can see is dictated- What providers get paid is (95% of the time) dictated- Who can practice is dictated- all by the government. Doctors cannot simply demonstrate more utility and thus either drive down DNP costs or raise their costs because there is no actual market response.

If we (well, not me, but most of ya'll in this thread) were practicing medicine in a free market, your suggestions would be valid.

Until/unless competition is revived in the 'states, Doctors need to stand up and lobby the friggin' stupid legislators to FIX this crap.
 
I'm a huge libertarian proponent of the free market, too.

BUT

You totally missed what Jagger was saying.

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A FREE MARKET COUNTRY.

Read that again. Seriously. I'll type it again for you:

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A FREE MARKET HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

Who you can see is dictated- What providers get paid is (95% of the time) dictated- Who can practice is dictated- all by the government. Doctors cannot simply demonstrate more utility and thus either drive down DNP costs or raise their costs because there is no actual market response.

If we (well, not me, but most of ya'll in this thread) were practicing medicine in a free market, your suggestions would be valid.

Until/unless competition is revived in the 'states, Doctors need to stand up and lobby the friggin' stupid legislators to FIX this crap.


You have already stated the remedy, lobby to change the system of reimbursement, not to shut someone out of the market. PA's are in Derm. I don't see a reason to keep the NP out. I know that when I have skin problems I will see my Dermatologist. That doesn't mean I should make this same decision for everyone.
 
The biggest issue we face as physicians against (not the right choice of words, b/c it shouldn't be a conflict) non-physicians is that physicians (and/or other providers) have not routinely established metrics for quality and performance. We aren't developing them, and in fact, many physicians are fighting them. If we don't quantify the quality of the work we do, somebody else will. There are certain people (very quiet voices in the wilderness) that are doing this work, but nobody listens to them or knows their names.

The point of this is that many of you scream at the top of the lungs "HOW CAN YOU LET NON-PHYSICIANS DO PHYSICIAN WORK AND PAY THEM PHYSICIAN SALARIES??" At the same time, if you are not doing your part in establishing what makes your work better than their work, or at least setting up benchmarks/quality indicators that are able to be validated/compared to indicate either higher quality or lower cost, then even I am not sympathetic.

I've said it on these boards before. It's up to physicians to produce benchmarks and outcomes data that prove what we do is better. If what we do is, in fact, not better, then the NPs/PAs have won. It's part of ACGME requirements to do a quality improvement project during your residency, so do it. Attempt to set up validated quality benchmarks, see how your department does, and let that be the number that NPs have to reach (be it cost, quality, a combination of both, whatever) to be allowed to practice independently. It's a start.

Yelling and screaming and pontificating won't help. We need evidence on our side. People are frustrated at the low quality and high cost of medical care. We need to show that we can provide the best medical care on the planet at a reasonable cost. If we can't, let the market decide who can.

-S
 
I predict the end of medicine been practiced only by physicians in any specialty to be in 15 years. And I will only be 40 something and very far from retirement!!! DAMN!!!

On a serious note, this is tragic/scary/and a complete joke to the physician profession. Until when are we going to let ANA tell the USA gov. what they can do and not do.
 
This seems like a pretty silly complaint to me.

We live in a free market. The viability of a NP in Derm is regulated by their demand. Their demand is regulated by the utility of the service they provide.

If you do not like it, provide a better service with more utility.

Of course a Dermatologist has much more expertise than a NP in Derm. The question then arises, do they provide more utility for their cost?

It should be fairly obvious that not just anyone can practice medicine. There is a reason you are required to be licensed before you walk around dealing with issues that have potential to cause morbidity and mortality.

For the same reason that a beautician can't hang a shingle and practice dermatology, an NP shouldn't be allowed to present him/herself as a board certified dermatologist.

And just to reiterate, the NP degree is a joke. I would love for the USMLE to open up the boards to them just to reiterate this point. The individual licensure boards should also open up to the and tell them to put up or shut up. I am 100% confident that not a single NP would pass these boards. It takes medical students and residents years to be able to gain the knowledge required to pass all 3 steps and the board certification of their given specialty. There is no way some former ICU nurse is going to take some online courses and be able to even compete with the dumbest of doctors.
 
I'm a huge libertarian proponent of the free market, too.

BUT

You totally missed what Jagger was saying.

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A FREE MARKET COUNTRY.

Read that again. Seriously. I'll type it again for you:

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A FREE MARKET HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

Who you can see is dictated- What providers get paid is (95% of the time) dictated- Who can practice is dictated- all by the government. Doctors cannot simply demonstrate more utility and thus either drive down DNP costs or raise their costs because there is no actual market response.

If we (well, not me, but most of ya'll in this thread) were practicing medicine in a free market, your suggestions would be valid.

Until/unless competition is revived in the 'states, Doctors need to stand up and lobby the friggin' stupid legislators to FIX this crap.

Agreed. As long as you accept insurance ... we don't participate in a free market with regards to the US health service system.
 
It should be fairly obvious that not just anyone can practice medicine. There is a reason you are required to be licensed before you walk around dealing with issues that have potential to cause morbidity and mortality.

For the same reason that a beautician can't hang a shingle and practice dermatology, an NP shouldn't be allowed to present him/herself as a board certified dermatologist.

And just to reiterate, the NP degree is a joke. I would love for the USMLE to open up the boards to them just to reiterate this point. The individual licensure boards should also open up to the and tell them to put up or shut up. I am 100% confident that not a single NP would pass these boards. It takes medical students and residents years to be able to gain the knowledge required to pass all 3 steps and the board certification of their given specialty. There is no way some former ICU nurse is going to take some online courses and be able to even compete with the dumbest of doctors.

Instatewaiter posted a story earlier where a watered down version of Step III was given to a big sample of NPs, and 50% failed (95% of interns passed the real version).
 
I was only commenting on another poster's question about a derm shortage, I said nothing about this being a valid reason for the nurses. Calm yourself.


Someone (sarcastically) mentioned that they weren't aware of a shortage of dermatological care, thus question the utility of DNP Dermatologists.

You replied: have you tried getting an appointment with one?

How did your post contribute anything to the message the OP was trying to get across?

Here's a clue: IT DIDN'T.

If anything, your comment can interpreted as you saying -- since it's difficult to get an appt with a dermatologist, maybe this whole DNP derm thing is not a bad idea.

Which wouldn't surprise me actually, considering you stood up for Optometrists in the OD forum when I was arguing with them about their efforts to be allowed to do eye procedures/surgery. :thumbdown:
 
I predict the end of medicine been practiced only by physicians in any specialty to be in 15 years. And I will only be 40 something and very far from retirement!!! DAMN!!!

On a serious note, this is tragic/scary/and a complete joke to the physician profession. Until when are we going to let ANA tell the USA gov. what they can do and not do.

Don't buy into it. A physician's training is far superior to anything that these clowns would like us to believe. All doctors have to do is stop overseeing the midlevels and the house of cards comes crumbling down. Many midlevels are very good, but this shouldn't be confused with ability to practice indepedently. When you remove the safety net, you'll see that these practitioners aren't infallible.
 
Instatewaiter posted a story earlier where a watered down version of Step III was given to a big sample of NPs, and 50% failed (95% of interns passed the real version).

This is what you'd expect. Your average medical student is a much better intellect than your average NP. On top of that, medical students study longer hours and for a longer duration of time. There is not a single possibility that these NP have anywhere near the fund of knolwedge required to safely practice family medicine, dermatology, or any other specialty. It's simply not possible... if you took medical students and gave them the same curriculum, they too would crash and burn.

GIGO... garbage in, garbage out
 
I don't think you have ever spent time at a dermatology clinic, with a real dermatologist, or even at an American hospital (!), because your post was completely ignorant and oblivious for numerous reasons.

By the way, the "microscopic" part of "gross + microscopic" is the biopsy mentioned, the one that dermpath-trained fellows argue about - you completely missed the point. Anyone can find melanoma. Hello, ABCD screening campaigns. Even grandma can find melanoma these days. The reason doctors get paid the big bucks is because of vast clinical experience and scaffolds of clinical knowledge. There are many cutaneous manifestations of systemic disease, and many more being published these days, not to mention new monoclonal antibodies that didn't even exist when you or I studied pharmacology, targeting inflammatory pathways and receptors that no nurse practitioner has even dreamed about. The fact is, we have biological matrices on which to say "give them a TNF blocker", predict its side effects based on mechanism, know what it means to see lymphocytes on a slide, or know about basement membrane invasion and metastasis to predict behaviors. We may not remember all of that in great detail, but it only takes a few seconds to jog those cells when required, and is useful especially with zebras. That is the difference between a doctor and a mid level. Just examples, but I hope you decide to think more abstractly. When you think about good outcomes in terms of "number of melanomas spotted", I'm sure some computer scientist could come up with an algorithm that beats us all. It's not about that. Hospitals are charting outcomes these days based on stupid things like "time to first antibiotic dose" - you know how clinically irrelevant (and potentially lethal) that is, when that time-pressured intern just created super-VRE.

When the public pays for a doctor, it pays for a clinical gestalt, not an automaton programmed to do 3mm punch biopsies at command. NP's, esp with this "residency" are the clinical equivalent of the computer readout on an EKG. Probably have seen many more EKG's than you have, but your knowledge is still vital. How many more lives can they save? Who knows unless it's yours, right?

You're right I don't know much about derm. I have flawless skin so I never had use for one. So I was wrong to spout off on a specialty I'm pretty ignorant about. Mea culpa. I also take your point about cutaneous symptoms of systemic disease. That is a good point...

I am reading the rest of this thread with some interest, my missteps in not giving proper respect to my dermatologist colleagues aside. I see two arguments, one saying that NPs are more dangerous in the long run. That might be true, but if that's the case then what are people really afraid of? If you get the NP get training and practice independently, and they are as bad as we claim, then they will get sued more, their malpractice insurance will be higher, and it will be financially less viable for them to continue.

The other argument is that they haven't jumped through as many hoops as we have, so they don't deserve to make as much. The underlying fear in this argument is that maybe some of the ridiculous hoops we've jumped through don't make us better doctors. Could it be that in some cases, some very lucrative cases, it makes no difference how many hours you studied organic chemistry? There are many aspects of medicine that are both lucrative and also don't require that much training. Even in the hallowed halls of the OR, there are PAs harvesting the saphenous vein and opening up the chest. There are people doing botox. A lot of the very lucrative procedures that doctors do are learned in a weekend CME conference. All I'm saying is that there are things that doctors are able to do, not because are the best at it, but because society, the state medical board, or whoever it is, grants us the privilege of doing them. I can understand that many people would be upset that they had to jump through a bunch of hoops for the privilege while others found back doors. I know this all too well... like every time I'm discharging a patient while the PA is in the OR helping out in a CABG.

I personally don't want any midlevels encroaching on my turf and cherry picking all the fun and lucrative things I worked hard to be able to do. But I don't pretend to know more about harvesting the saphenous than the PA who's done it hundreds of times just because I took anatomy in medical school. It is one thing to say they are more dangerous, and another to say they don't deserve the privilege. If medicine is going to defend itself, it has to figure out what the real argument is...
 
Someone (sarcastically) mentioned that they weren't aware of a shortage of dermatological care, thus question the utility of DNP Dermatologists.

You replied: have you tried getting an appointment with one?

How did your post contribute anything to the message the OP was trying to get across?

Here's a clue: IT DIDN'T.

If anything, your comment can interpreted as you saying -- since it's difficult to get an appt with a dermatologist, maybe this whole DNP derm thing is not a bad idea.

Which wouldn't surprise me actually, considering you stood up for Optometrists in the OD forum when I was arguing with them about their efforts to be allowed to do eye procedures/surgery. :thumbdown:

Aww, you remembered from the OD/MD battles.

At any rate, if that post was sarcastic then I guess my comment wasn't worth anything. Given what I've read of this thread though, I doubt it.

Most anyone who encroaches on what has, historically, been under the supervision of the medical boards takes 2 approaches. 1. There's a sizable demand that isn't being met by MDs (OK ODs used that quite well). 2. Their training is sufficient to do whatever they're asking for (this is the usual approach: CRNAs, primary care NPs). My comment was directed towards the first one, answering the poster's question :What is the DNP's excuse this time?

As to what my comment can be interpreted as saying: what is it with people on this particular branch of the forums. I just had a nice little snapping fest with someone else who read too much into what I say. It says exactly what it says, and nothing more. If I want it to mean something else, I'm say something else. I truly don't get what is so complicated about this idea.
 
Pay no attention to filter07. In another thread, he was trying to convince people that we should cut out the first year of medical school, including basic physiology because it has nothing to do with the practice of medicine (he said tyrosine kinases/second msger pathways and heat shock proteins have no value when practicing medicine and didn't see the clinical significance of such topics). Apparently anything that is not related directly to his field of study is a waste of time in medicine...talk about missing the big picture.

QFT

:thumbup: Will do.
 
There is a PA to MD track. .

um, no there isn't. and I would know because I would be in it.. there are no legitimate md/do programs in the united states that will give a PA advanced standing unless they have another adv. degree(say a pharmd or phd in anatomy).

to the poster who mentioned pa's work in derm remember that they all must by definition work for a physician. there are not (and never will be) independent derm pa's. there are derm pa residencies(and have been for yrs see www.appap.org for links to all pa residencies, many of which have been around for 30+ yrs...) but all the grads in derm and other fields work for md's and when they discover something significant that requires major intervention they consult with their physician supervisors.
 
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Aww, you remembered from the OD/MD battles.

At any rate, if that post was sarcastic then I guess my comment wasn't worth anything. Given what I've read of this thread though, I doubt it.

Most anyone who encroaches on what has, historically, been under the supervision of the medical boards takes 2 approaches. 1. There's a sizable demand that isn't being met by MDs (OK ODs used that quite well). 2. Their training is sufficient to do whatever they're asking for (this is the usual approach: CRNAs, primary care NPs). My comment was directed towards the first one, answering the poster's question :What is the DNP's excuse this time?

As to what my comment can be interpreted as saying: what is it with people on this particular branch of the forums. I just had a nice little snapping fest with someone else who read too much into what I say. It says exactly what it says, and nothing more. If I want it to mean something else, I'm say something else. I truly don't get what is so complicated about this idea.

Yes, I remembered. I don't forget sell outs.

Why don't you share with the rest of us how you really feel about this DNP issue. :D
 
That's what biopsies are for. Your argument is a red herring. The fact that nobody can diagnose melanoma definitely by looking at it with their naked eye is not pertinent to the discussion. Do you think learning about sodium and potassium channels is going to improve the likelihood of finding melanoma? How about all of those COPD and CHF exacerbations admitted during internship? I'm sure a dermatologist or dermpathologist are more likely to be better at picking out melanoma but not because they trained in medical school or internship, they are better because they see more melanomas. I don't see why a nurse practioner who specializes in melanomas and sees enough cases won't be able to spot melanomas as well as a dermatologist. I am sorry, but derm is not brain surgery. The clinically relevant pathophysiology of a melanoma is not that complex. Stop kidding yourself.


Are you serious? I agree derm is not brain surgery, but if you are a brain surgeon and you devolop psoriasis that looks like this do you want someone who has a whole 1000 hours of training to attempt to treat you? I dont..........


psoriasisofthehands.jpg
















Anyway........have you ever took the time open a dermatology/dermpath text or spent time in a dermatology clinic? If so, you would have seen patients with very complex pathology that to be honest we don't even completely understand yet. Patients with such severe diseases such as erythrodermic psoriasis or pemphigus vulgaris that they cannot function or live normal lives. Yeah, derm is nice and the average dermatologist treats alot of acne and warts, but they truly know alot. There are approx 2500 dermatological diagnoses, and while you may only see 20-30 in your office on a regular basis the derm boards don't care.

Take a look at Bolognia or Weedon the next time you are in a medical library.
 
um, no there isn't. and I would know because I would be in it.. there are no legitimate md/do programs in the united states that will give a PA advanced standing unless they have another adv. degree(say a pharmd or phd in anatomy).

to the poster who mentioned pa's work in derm remember that they all must by definition work for a physician. there are not (and never will be) independent derm pa's. there are derm pa residencies(and have been for yrs see www.appap.org for links to all pa residencies, many of which have been around for 30+ yrs...) but all the grads in derm and other fields work for md's and when they discover something significant that requires major intervention they consult with their physician supervisors.

I tried looking the PA-MD med school up and don't see them existing anymore. There used to be one in the caribbean. it was university health sciences antigua, but they don't take PA's for advanced standing anymore, but they do accept them.

On the other hand I found an interesting website about it: http://www.physicianassistantforum....634-A-new-twist-on-PA-MD-DO-bridge-fast-track I didn't read all of it.

but yes of course it is best to just go through complete med school. What's the difference if you're completing a PHD. That takes 3-4 years or sometimes more plus the years of residency to specialize. Might as well go to med school if that's your ultimate dream--to work as a physician.

I'm wondering when any attendings are going to chime in on this. Im curious to know what they think of all this. It's mostly residents, medical students or other health professionals.
 
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Honestly I am on the fence about this. I was an Internist for a year before subspecializing in GI. So I get wanting to protect one's turf. If a DNP can do the basic job for less pay, there goes one's job security. However, I don't know if I buy the whole patient care argument in not allowing DNP to move in on primary care.

Procedural specialties (surgery, cards, GI, gyn, etc) take not just medical knowledge but time spent getting proficient in said procedures.

The type of consults I get from IM, FP, NP, or PAs sometimes show a lack of thought. IM/FP probably have more knowledge base and initiate better work ups. What I've seen is that if a patient is not routine they'll get a specialty consultation because a PCP just doesn't have the time nor the incentive to go over a patient's laundry list of problems. There's no reason a PCP should refer a patient with DM to an endocrinologist or a patient with IBS to a gastroenterologist. However, it happens regularly. Many PCP practices are mills where a patient has about 5-10 mins with the doc.

It doesn't take rocket science to follow the JNC-7 guidelines for preventative care. The caveat is that there occasionally comes a very complex patient who an astute and well trained PCP can either manage or properly refer for specialty care without having to get the shot-gun blast of unnecessary labs/imaging studies.

Midlevels should not be looked as a replacement for MDs but supplements. When the **** hits the fan, most patients would want to be seen by a medical doctor. In the rural parts of town, if MDs aren't willing to practice there, then midlevels are a viable option.
 
Honestly I am on the fence about this. I was an Internist for a year before subspecializing in GI. So I get wanting to protect one's turf. If a DNP can do the basic job for less pay, there goes one's job security. However, I don't know if I buy the whole patient care argument in not allowing DNP to move in on primary care.
Procedural specialties (surgery, cards, GI, gyn, etc) take not just medical knowledge but time spent getting proficient in said procedures.

The type of consults I get from IM, FP, NP, or PAs sometimes show a lack of thought. IM/FP probably have more knowledge base and initiate better work ups. What I've seen is that if a patient is not routine they'll get a specialty consultation because a PCP just doesn't have the time nor the incentive to go over a patient's laundry list of problems. There's no reason a PCP should refer a patient with DM to an endocrinologist or a patient with IBS to a gastroenterologist. However, it happens regularly. Many PCP practices are mills where a patient has about 5-10 mins with the doc.

It doesn't take rocket science to follow the JNC-7 guidelines for preventative care. The caveat is that there occasionally comes a very complex patient who an astute and well trained PCP can either manage or properly refer for specialty care without having to get the shot-gun blast of unnecessary labs/imaging studies.

Midlevels should not be looked as a replacement for MDs but supplements. When the **** hits the fan, most patients would want to be seen by a medical doctor. In the rural parts of town, if MDs aren't willing to practice there, then midlevels are a viable option.

Okay if you think its okay for NPs to move in on primary care (I don't think it is okay BTW) then what about NPs doing GI?
For example:
Claudia Christensen is a nurse practitioner and she performs screening colonoscopies. "As far as I know, I am the only one doing them. It is not common at all," she says -- and she is right.

You see, Claudia Christensen, FNP, CGRN, nurse endoscopist and colorectal screening coordinator in the surgery services department of the Alaska Native Medical Center, has in fact performed more than 1,200 screening colonoscopies over the past three years; prior to which she (also for three years) performed flexible sigmoidoscopies
.

After the training she received from the general surgeons at her facility and the hands-on training she received at the National Procedures Institute, Christensen did not undergo any further schooling or instrumentation. She did, however, have to complete 50 unsupervised colonoscopies before she could be credentialed to fly solo.

Currently, she performs the colonoscopies alone, but with a physician available within the hospital. On the average case, to assist her, she has a nurse who administers conscious sedation and an assistant or tech in the room during the procedure.
"There certainly is a licensing issue; I think there probably is a philosophical issue right now as well. Although I do think as the changing landscape of GI continues to evolve, that phenomenon may occur. It's already clearly occurred in the practice, where mid-levels are used as physician extenders for the up-front evaluation as to whether or not a patient needs the procedure done.

"Clearly, the role of the GI proceduralist physician will continue to evolve over time and it certainly wouldn't be unforeseen that mid-level providers may at some point be used in an ambulatory surgery center (ASC) to do routine cases. That's clearly not the norm today, but as they continue to have reimbursement pressures and a variety of other factors impacting the GI physicians, there will be multiple pathways they will pursue to continue to evolve with the market," Poisson concludes.

Christensen says that the evolution of her involvement into the realm of performing screening colonoscopies began as a reaction to the increased findings of polyps and the influx of referrals for so many people to get the whole exam (colonoscopy as well as the flexible sigmoidoscopies). "The surgeons asked if I would just go ahead and train to do colonoscopies and that's how that happened," she explains.

One of the reasons why the program is so successful in Alaska is because nurse practitioners have prescriptive authority "and so it is within our scope of practice to do them," Christensen says.

Currently, the medical center Christensen works at serves the entire state of Alaska. The state, she says, has a high rate of colorectal cancer -- "about twice that of any other ethnic group in the world," she notes. She says the overall screening rate for the state has typically remained very poor and cites its landscape of primarily small and very rural areas as the reason for this. Of course, this couples with the fact that the Alaskan system has no actual GI docs and only general surgeons.

So, Christensen herself performs nearly 600 colonoscopies a year - and this is in addition to the ones the surgeons do. "We're doing better with screening rates," she says cheerfully, adding that the facility still operates a flex-sig program done by nurses in the primary care clinic.
In Christensen's Anchorage system, the screening rates have increased from 15 percent to 50 percent in the three years since she and her colleagues first implemented the program -- and 20 percent of that increase can be directly applied to her newfound capability.

"We were able to really increase screening rates here," she affirms. "We've made a big impact in this area." She explains that she also travels to other regional hospitals throughout the state and performs the colonoscopies "independently, without a physician on-site."

"I think this needs to be published because this is a safe, effective, extremely cost-effective alternative to physician providers. I think some people in the GI community would agree that to really get a handle on the backlog for the underinsured and uninsured, that this is really an excellent thing to do."

She continues, "The quality needs to be maintained. I think our system is an ideal setting to do it, and we have general surgeons available at all times."

Her advice? "Find a supportive group of physicians. They are out there; people that are willing to admit that our being in the system is helping to increase screening and not really decreasing their bottom line or business at all. Actually, it is probably helping to find more - more polyps, more cancers, etc."

Christensen says that in order to move down this path in the rest of the United States, nurses must take action to ensure that their state nursing boards make the scope of practice for mid-levels broad enough that they can do this type of procedure. "There are many states in which this is far from happening because this is not within the scope of practice yet for a mid-level provider, to prescribe or give sedation or do these kinds of things to begin with. In many states, this is the beginning stumbling block," Christensen explains.

Varying levels of nurse-led programs have shown high successes rates. Australia established the practice of nurse practitioner- led colorectal screenings, according to a journal article in the 2005 January/February issue of Gastroenterology Nursing.1

In response to the staggering colorectal cancer rates in the southern Australian area, a teaching hospital launched this nurse practitioner-led colorectal screening service. The service provided fecal occult blood testing and flexible sigmoidoscopy, and was accompanied with health education and patient counseling, as well as referrals. Establishment of this clinic required "advanced and extended theoretical and clinical preparation for the nurse practitioner, as well as development of interdisciplinary relationships, referral processes, clinical infrastructure, and a marketing strategy," the article reads.

According to an internal audit of the first 100 flexible sigmoidoscopy patients in the program, the service revealed outcomes that compared favorably with other colorectal screening services, "as well as a high level of patient satisfaction," the researchers wrote. It is also interesting to note in this case that flexible sigmoidoscopy had not been a commonly used screening tool in Australia due to the lack of resources.

Over the last three years that Christensen has performed screening colonoscopies, she has found 13 cancers. "And those, you know, were cancers that would have been found late," she points out.

As for adverse events, "I have had some," she admits, "but not above the average for that procedure. I have had one bleed, two perforations … no anesthesia problems, no other adverse events at all."

She further explains that all of those patients did well. For example, in one of the perforations, Christensen says the area sealed itself off and the patient didn't have to have anything done. The other was actually caused by air in the small bowel and it had an obstruction. "Nothing over the average for that procedure," she notes.

"I think that what this is really all about is prevention," Christensen says. "It's not about diagnosing. It's not about doing something that isn't within the realm of prevention and screening, and I think patients and physicians need to know that what my job is as a nurse practitioner is not to be a 'mini doctor' or an extension of them, but to identify or prevent a disease that is absolutely preventable before it starts.

"It's screening. It's not diagnostic, and with the proper training and education and experience, especially experience doing these types of things; it is a very, very doable and valuable addition to our healthcare system."
http://www.endonurse.com/cms/welcom...tp://www.endonurse.com/articles/6c1feat3.html
 
I am reading the rest of this thread with some interest, my missteps in not giving proper respect to my dermatologist colleagues aside. I see two arguments, one saying that NPs are more dangerous in the long run. That might be true, but if that's the case then what are people really afraid of? If you get the NP get training and practice independently, and they are as bad as we claim, then they will get sued more, their malpractice insurance will be higher, and it will be financially less viable for them to continue.
Spot on. :thumbup:

The other argument is that they haven't jumped through as many hoops as we have, so they don't deserve to make as much.
Yeah, there is a God-sent rule from heaven, that you have to make yourself deserve a job in order to make a living doing what you want in the U.S. Did I hear *cough* socialist rhetorics? Society OWNs all the jobs, and you have to BEG to work?

I personally don't want any midlevels encroaching on my turf and cherry picking all the fun and lucrative things I worked hard to be able to do. But I don't pretend to know more about harvesting the saphenous than the PA who's done it hundreds of times just because I took anatomy in medical school. It is one thing to say they are more dangerous, and another to say they don't deserve the privilege. If medicine is going to defend itself, it has to figure out what the real argument is...
I understand why people are slinging ad hominems in your direction, as this intellectual honesty you are displaying goes against the egotistical interests of the doctors in this thread, barring those practicing surgery, as some turfs are less likely to be invaded by NPs anytime soon :D
 
exPCM: great post, it shows how costs could be cut drastically if nurses were allowed to do all the scoping.

In Germany, nurses do all the sonos of the carotids and vertebral arteries. In Scandinavian countries, nurses monitor anesthesia, after the anesthesiologist has intubated and initiated anesthesia.

This will only increase. I realize that you all hate this, and that you are willing to jump on those non-fossils that actually greet the move towards working according to ability and not status.

This actually proves that you don't need to know nothing about janus kinases and hormone receptors, or any other areas of intracellular or extracellular signaling, to practice in certain areas of medicine, and I sure as h3ll didn't need it. You don't even need undergrad to go into medicine, but you all want to keep it the way things are because 1) you are SNOBS and 2) you have economic interest in doing so. :whistle:
 
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