NPs can now do dermatology residencies

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Comparing us to law graduates and others is a little ridic. Anyone with half a brain going into that field realizes its over saturated and unless you go to a T5-10 you will have problems finding a job. This is a NEW development in the healthcare world (when I happen to be in school). Again, in teaching you realize that starting right now is 30-40K (going in), and it is often difficult to find a job (lets be real though, the teachers have unions to protect their interests and have to undergo much less schooling than physicians in terms of compensation comparison). The real point is that these changes in healthcare and medicine education happened to occur pretty unforseeably (yes, you can argue we could see things coming about DNP but hindsight is always 20/20).

P.S. Your argument of "you are not entitled to jack ****" is just a knee jerk reaction to when **** goes bad and when people complain. How about analyzing the situation and saying.... well, you made a smart investment... **** happens... and you deal with it. Sorry, its just your attitude that pisses me off.

Different professions, different situations, YES. Guarantees, entitlements, NO. The way it should be. My attitude, well that was a reflection of you claiming we're admitting dumb students just because they aren't bitching about things the way you are. Also, you make no mention of separating yourself from DNP's (if you even have to..) and going cash only or whatever other route you could go to prove to others your worth.

**I'd actually argue the teacher unions do nothing for the teachers, only the school districts which funnel the money to the administrators. If you bring up tenure, then yeah I'd agree with you on that one.

-Nevermind, I didn't see your entire post. The first paragraph you answered my question.
 
You make a big error in your logic, Zap. You assume that that our health care system is "free market". It hasn't been "free market" for quite some time, and is even less so now.

DNP's will be a cheap tool for the government to reduce costs if we're not politically active.

Please read this article, you'll see what kind of change we can expect to see in our future: http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/28/health-care-reform-obama-opinions-columnists-shikha-dalmia.html

Again, keep in mind that DNP's will be another way for the government to cut costs.
 
Call the AAD at 202-842-3555

leave a voicemail message expressing your grave concerns!

"This is __________ from _______. I am calling to express my concerns over the implementation of the Dermatology Residency Program for Nurse Practitioners down at USF run by "Dr." Debra Shelby. I strongly believe that this is something your organization should be made aware of and would also want to investigate further. Thank you."

You can use the above message as a transcript or rant on as you wish. Takes less than a minute of your time.
 
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You make a big error in your logic, Zap. You assume that that our health care system is "free market". It hasn't been "free market" for quite some time, and is even less so now.

DNP's will be a cheap tool for the government to reduce costs if we're not politically active.

Please read this article, you'll see what kind of change we can expect to see in our future: http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/28/health-care-reform-obama-opinions-columnists-shikha-dalmia.html

Again, keep in mind that DNP's will be another way for the government to cut costs.

No I know we don't operate in a free market. I thought my posts would have indicated that. Although DNP's could offer a free market system in the government world (that sounds ridiculous :laugh:). Cheaper services, even if the care sucks (government won't care). That's why I'm boggled that DNP's want equal reimbursement with physicians, makes no sense.

The one thing I'll say is that there still is a free market niche for physicians. There are some great articles out there about cash only primary care doctors who see like 5-10 patients a day and earn well over 200k. A lot of psych has gone cash only, and my sister told me that derms at her hospital (she's an RN at a major teaching hospital) have gone cash only and excelling. There still are ways to distinguish yourself.
 
Equal re-imbursment means them going up slightly and us coming down greatly.

And, cash-only physicians are only a good option so long as there are (a) not many of them and (b) no laws against it--I know it may sound silly, but there are quite literally countless people who would fight tooth and nail to make sure that people who have more / get treated better / etc will but cut down to size.

We shouldn't worry about distinguishing ourselves from our fellow physicians, but from the mid levels who should be working under us.
 
Equal re-imbursment means them going up slightly and us coming down greatly.

And, cash-only physicians are only a good option so long as there are (a) not many of them and (b) no laws against it--I know it may sound silly, but there are quite literally countless people who would fight tooth and nail to make sure that people who have more / get treated better / etc will but cut down to size.

We shouldn't worry about distinguishing ourselves from our fellow physicians, but from the mid levels who should be working under us.

Let's say your not a physician or future physician. What would be wrong about lowering medicare reimbursements (which is public money) to pay for DNP's who can provide an equal or better service than physicians (again, studies need to be conducted and proven, and if you argue they never will then I won't argue with that)? And what do you mean cash only physicians only work when there are not many (again from a physician stand point maybe, but society would greatly benefit b/c costs would lower: people buying catastrophic insurance, stop feeding the insurance beast, no "free" healthcare through medicare, etc.) For physicians, maybe all of this would not be ideal. But I can't be hypocritical and go against my principles just because it maintains the status quo for my career. I still think the big thing is student loans, they put us in this financial predicament.

As for government outlawing cash only practices, it is possible the way things are going. I can't disagree with you there. I sometimes think I was born in the wrong generation...
 
No I know we don't operate in a free market. I thought my posts would have indicated that. Although DNP's could offer a free market system in the government world (that sounds ridiculous :laugh:). Cheaper services, even if the care sucks (government won't care). That's why I'm boggled that DNP's want equal reimbursement with physicians, makes no sense.

The one thing I'll say is that there still is a free market niche for physicians. There are some great articles out there about cash only primary care doctors who see like 5-10 patients a day and earn well over 200k. A lot of psych has gone cash only, and my sister told me that derms at her hospital (she's an RN at a major teaching hospital) have gone cash only and excelling. There still are ways to distinguish yourself.

Gonna be hard when everyone is required to purchase HI or pay a fine...
 
Again, it can't be about us. It has to be about patients.



That's fine. That concerns what's best for patients, not what's best for doctors.



The fact that I'm not wetting myself like some of you doesn't mean that I'm not doing anything. You'll just have to take my word for it. 😉

1. Doc, I don't know how many times I've said it ... patient safety is a huge, huge concern. HOWEVER, despite popular opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking out for one's own self interest. You act like it's a dirty thing to protect the physician's role in society. The two go hand in hand.

2. I guess I'll have to take your word for it ...
 
Gonna be hard when everyone is required to purchase HI or pay a fine...

Possibly, but if the majority of physicians were cash only then the mandatory HI wouldn't matter. I admit, I'm being very idealistic with that one though.
 
1. Doc, I don't know how many times I've said it ... patient safety is a huge, huge concern. HOWEVER, despite popular opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking out for one's own self interest. You act like it's a dirty thing to protect the physician's role in society. The two go hand in hand.

2. I guess I'll have to take your word for it ...

If you think about it, it is dirty to suppress the freedom of the DNP movement just to keep the status quo for physicians. That's like corporatism. Instead, you should be advocating a more free market system where they can compete with you, the eventual physician. This way there is true competition, and you, the more educated provider, can shine. A random example, Big Pharma is in bed with the FDA, thus eliminating the growth of smaller pharm. companies to compete and lower costs. I'm sure most physicians who share your sentiments towards the DNP movement would argue that the Big Pharma/FDA connection is wrong. How are the two different? Both suppress growth and innovation.
 
Let's say your not a physician or future physician. What would be wrong about lowering medicare reimbursements (which is public money) to pay for DNP's who can provide an equal or better service than physicians (again, studies need to be conducted and proven, and if you argue they never will then I won't argue with that)?
Hypothetical and therefore irrelevant in this particular debate (where the likelihood of achieving the hypothetical is essentially zero). They're incapable of providing better care due to limitations in training and knowledge. But, if they did--by some chance--have a magical training program that made them better, in less time, then sure... whatever, physicians would be useless.

And what do you mean cash only physicians only work when there are not many (again from a physician stand point maybe, but society would greatly benefit b/c costs would lower: people buying catastrophic insurance, stop feeding the insurance beast, no "free" healthcare through medicare, etc.)
Well, again, you've gone hypothetical. The reality is we just passed a massive socialist health care bill that gives the government much more power than it already had. It's not going away. So, the only people who will be paying cash for healthcare are the rich/wealthy, who want the best care and are willing/able to pay for it. That means, since the rich are very limited, the number of physicians able to treat them and operate on a cash-only basis are also very limited.

For physicians, maybe all of this would not be ideal. But I can't be hypocritical and go against my principles just because it maintains the status quo for my career. I still think the big thing is student loans, they put us in this financial predicament.
Student loans are not a big deal. People whine too much about them. What's $15k/yr when you make $200k/yr?

The big problem here is that a less qualified, less educated group of people is blurring the lines between themselves and a much more qualified group of people in one of the most important, and intimate interactions that people will ever have in their entire lives.

As for government outlawing cash only practices, it is possible the way things are going. I can't disagree with you there. I sometimes think I was born in the wrong generation...
We were definitely born in the wrong generation :laugh:
 
If you think about it, it is dirty to suppress the freedom of the DNP movement just to keep the status quo for physicians.

Well then, what do you have to say to the DNP's who are very effectively "false advertising"?

That's like corporatism. Instead, you should be advocating a more free market system where they can compete with you, the eventual physician. This way there is true competition, and you, the more educated provider, can shine. ...
 
Well then, what do you have to say to the DNP's who are very effectively "false advertising"?

That's like corporatism. Instead, you should be advocating a more free market system where they can compete with you, the eventual physician. This way there is true competition, and you, the more educated provider, can shine. ...

A few things:

I know I'm being hypothetical. But the situation kinda calls for that. DNP's have a lot to prove, I just believe they should be given the opportunity to prove their worth. 15k/yr, I want to go to your med school.

You may be confusing cash only (where prices are listed like a menu at a restaurant) with concierge medicine, which yes is predominantly for the wealthy. As for DNP's false advertising, I don't know. I still feel like the patient can inquire about their education and training and them make their own decision. Will government eventually limit this choice, well who knows but yeah probably.

Question for you and anyone who knows. What kind of HI is required? Any? What if a person only wants catastrophic, thus using out of pocket cash for routine care (or more). I don't know what's in the bill about the specific insurance requirement??
 
If you think about it, it is dirty to suppress the freedom of the DNP movement just to keep the status quo for physicians. That's like corporatism. Instead, you should be advocating a more free market system where they can compete with you, the eventual physician. This way there is true competition, and you, the more educated provider, can shine. A random example, Big Pharma is in bed with the FDA, thus eliminating the growth of smaller pharm. companies to compete and lower costs. I'm sure most physicians who share your sentiments towards the DNP movement would argue that the Big Pharma/FDA connection is wrong. How are the two different? Both suppress growth and innovation.

Because DNPs cannot provide the same services as physicians? Yea, they can take BP and prescribe antibiotics, but there is no substitute for a BC physician. If you do think someone with 1 year of training and 1000 clinical hours can do as well as a physician, why are you wasting time in med school?
 
Also I wouldn't equate more education with better care. Better care can mean a lot of things to patients: healthy outcomes, the length of the visit, the friendliness of the provider, whether the provider sends a christmas card, and most importantly the costs. But like I said, I don't think DNP's will cost less which is great for the physician community.
 
A few things:

I know I'm being hypothetical. But the situation kinda calls for that. DNP's have a lot to prove, I just believe they should be given the opportunity to prove their worth.
You were being hypothetical with regards to our health care system. You were making hypothetical statements about how things could work if our health care system were different than it actually is. That's what I was referring to.

15k/yr, I want to go to your med school.
$15k/yr is what most people will pay toward their student loans each year, not how much I'm paying for my tuition (unfortunately, lol).

You may be confusing cash only (where prices are listed like a menu at a restaurant) with concierge medicine, which yes is predominantly for the wealthy.
I'd need you to expand on this. I'm not sure why people with insurance--especially government insurance-- will (or even will be able to) shop around.

As for DNP's false advertising, I don't know. I still feel like the patient can inquire about their education and training and them make their own decision. Will government eventually limit this choice, well who knows but yeah probably.
Advertising doesn't require inquiry. Advertising is Dr. Noctor, Board Certified in Dermatology" <-- VERY misleading.

Question for you and anyone who knows. What kind of HI is required? Any? What if a person only wants catastrophic, thus using out of pocket cash for routine care (or more). I don't know what's in the bill about the specific insurance requirement??
I don't know for personal, but I know businesses have to meet certain standards. Good question.
 
Also I wouldn't equate more education with better care. Better care can mean a lot of things to patients: healthy outcomes, the length of the visit, the friendliness of the provider, whether the provider sends a christmas card, and most importantly the costs. But like I said, I don't think DNP's will cost less which is great for the physician community.

How does more education not equal better care? Anybody who thinks you can know "too much" about the human body is an idiot (not directed at you, just saying).
 
Because DNPs cannot provide the same services as physicians? Yea, they can take BP and prescribe antibiotics, but there is no substitute for a BC physician. If you do think someone with 1 year of training and 1000 clinical hours can do as well as a physician, why are you wasting time in med school?

I don't think they can do as well as physicians. I just think they should be given the opportunity to try and prove themselves. If you counter with, "well what about safety?" There is that famous statement from Jefferson about giving up liberties for safety...If I want my grandma to treat my lung cancer than that is my choice of freedom (albeit *****ic). It just seems very un-American (well not today's America) to deny them the chance. I just want the patients to decide. Example, I would never see anyone except a physician in whatever the specialty is. I would want the best of the best. That's just how I think. I have family members who think otherwise, they would have no problem TRYING OUT a NP, DNP, or PA for routine care. Switching later if needed.
 
How does more education not equal better care? Anybody who thinks you can know "too much" about the human body is an idiot (not directed at you, just saying).

In my mind, longer, more strenuous education does equal better care. But to each their own. Some people see Naturopathic docs for their "primary care." Hey I'm all for it, let people decide and deal with whatever the consequences (good or bad).
 
I don't think they can do as well as physicians. I just think they should be given the opportunity to try and prove themselves. If you counter with, "well what about safety?" There is that famous statement from Jefferson about giving up liberties for safety...If I want my grandma to treat my lung cancer than that is my choice of freedom (albeit *****ic). It just seems very un-American (well not today's America) to deny them the chance. I just want the patients to decide. Example, I would never see anyone except a physician in whatever the specialty is. I would want the best of the best. That's just how I think. I have family members who think otherwise, they would have no problem TRYING OUT a NP, DNP, or PA for routine care. Switching later if needed.
Fair, but they shouldn't be allowed to false advertise. E.g. you can't have them pretending to be physicians. They need to clearly state that they are nurse practitioners.
 
In my mind, longer, more strenuous education does equal better care. But to each their own. Some people see Naturopathic docs for their "primary care." Hey I'm all for it, let people decide and deal with whatever the consequences (good or bad).
While I agree that people should see whomever they choose to see, people should represent themselves accurately.

And, as an aside, I prefer the scientific test of "good". E.g. high "n", lots of controls, high statistical power, and some good 'ol numbers.
 
I am being hypothetical with healthcare, and very idealistic. I admit it.

As for why people would get involved with cash only when they have insurance. Again, this goes back to my question about the type of insurance that is mandatory. If extremely low premium, high catastrophic is accepted, then lots of studies (I'm too lazy to find these right now :laugh:) show patients (relatively healthy) can save tons of money going down this path (it's like extreme health savings accounts). But if government requires only typical "feed the insurance beast" high monthly premium insurance, then yeah cash only could dwindle.

As for Dr. Noctor (which is a funny way of saying it), I just blame this on the stupidity of people. Again, I will only see a physician for my health care. I see my Fam Physician twice a year? I know what age he went to med school, where he went, where he did his residency, what his favorite clinical rotations were in school, what areas of medicine does he research and love to practice in his career, etc. Do people really not ask questions about their provider?
 
I don't think they can do as well as physicians. I just think they should be given the opportunity to try and prove themselves. If you counter with, "well what about safety?" There is that famous statement from Jefferson about giving up liberties for safety...If I want my grandma to treat my lung cancer than that is my choice of freedom (albeit *****ic). It just seems very un-American (well not today's America) to deny them the chance. I just want the patients to decide. Example, I would never see anyone except a physician in whatever the specialty is. I would want the best of the best. That's just how I think. I have family members who think otherwise, they would have no problem TRYING OUT a NP, DNP, or PA for routine care. Switching later if needed.
The world is headed in another direction.

There is a cynical battle between interests going on in society between all clusters of interest.

No group is directly served best by libertarianism, libertarianism is something all groups would agree upon if the dynamics allowed for it, but decisions are made by voting, and when voting, I have bear no negative consequences trying to minimize the liberty of nurses.

Everything is f0cked up, that is just how life is. It is rational to be a fascist.
 
If you think about it, it is dirty to suppress the freedom of the DNP movement just to keep the status quo for physicians. That's like corporatism. Instead, you should be advocating a more free market system where they can compete with you, the eventual physician. This way there is true competition, and you, the more educated provider, can shine. A random example, Big Pharma is in bed with the FDA, thus eliminating the growth of smaller pharm. companies to compete and lower costs. I'm sure most physicians who share your sentiments towards the DNP movement would argue that the Big Pharma/FDA connection is wrong. How are the two different? Both suppress growth and innovation.

1. A free market doesn't exist in the US health services system. Doctors are paid by insurance companies. Certain companies (i.e. Medicare) run the market more than others. If these providers are paid equal rates by Medicare for services ... then they basically have the same job. It doesn't matter if you offer the best, coolest care in the world, if you're 20 miles away from a patient and accept Medicare and a DNP is 1 mile away from the patient and accepts Medicare ... game over. Plus, your time is static. You can't work 24 hours a day, and there are more than enough patients for you and the DNP down the street ... this isn't competition in a free market until the services aren't necessary and the compensation isn't based on equal rates. You both will have patients, you both will get paid the same for seeing the patients, and you can both only work so many hours a day - if you can't see a patient, he/she will say forget it, and see if they can get in with the DNP next door. Not a free market, not competition, etc.

2. Competition doesn't exist for yet ANOTHER reason in this situation ... patient safety. MD/DOs and DNPs aren't Coke and Pepsi. If you see two commercials, one for coke and one for pepsi, and coke looks awesome ... you buy a coke next time you're at 7-11. You don't die by making the wrong decision. You don't drink a coke and have a stoke two weeks later that pepsi would have prevented. Get my drift??? If this was true free market competition, my auto mechanic should be able to open a clinic. My party animal, loser college roommate should be able to advertise himself as a cardiologist. I mean, he can read a few books about it, right??? Study an EKG???

Insane, right??? There's no way. There has to be SET, STANDARD rules that says who can do stuff and who can't ... otherwise, anyone who THINKS, they can should be able to try it. Technically, I'm allowed to start up my own soda company tomorrow and compete with coke and pepsi and set up a stand on the corner. BUT, I couldn't wake up in the morning and advertise myself as a surgeon, and set up a clinic on the corner.

3. I can't believe I even have to defend myself to a group of medical students, residents, and attending physicians ... but there is absolutely, and I repeat, ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with defending your livelihood, your profession, and your future. Altruism doesn't exist in nature.
 
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Zap ... I'm sorry, but I just have to throw something out there ...

We can't argue. Think about how insane that is ... you're a medical student, I'm starting medical school in August - we're on the same team here. This internal bickering, weird competition, and constant need for intellectual 'one-uping' will get us absolutely no where, and, frankly, it's the attitudes that get docs stuck in this BS in the first place.

I blame pre-med education ... I seriously do. We're taught to viciously compete against each other from day one, and then I sit here and wonder why med students who want to go into surgery come into threads and LOL at their classmates who want to go into derm because they don't think they will be affected. Is that not just crazy at the core??? It's the 'cutting off your nose to spite your face' mentality, and I just don't want to participate in it. Frankly, I don't care if you see this differently on a philosophical level, or think that I'm being hypocritical.

Trying to stop this kind of unnecessary expansion is something that helps both physicians and patients. You are going to be a physician and your job is to help patients. It seems pretty straightforward to me ... let's all get on board.
 
This topic is about DNP with dermatology residency. It showed that as a profession, physician, we failed again. We failed to stand together and fight for our rights. Let's do something about this. I called. I emailed PD and med school.

I would not call DNPs as "physicians". They disguised between degree name and title. Their degrees are called Doctor of Nurse Practicing but their tiles are Nurse Practitioner, or mid-level. Similarly, DPT are physical therapists, and PharmDs are pharmacists. We are called by titles, not degree names.

I hope someone will change AMA. They did nothing to protect (not even promote) the profession.
I contacted AMA


CALL (800) 621-8335

or write to
https://extapps.ama-assn.org/contactus/contactusMain.do
 
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Qft

i hereby declare that we are officially under attack by np's. I would equate that disturbing video detailing the start of a "derm residency program" to the storming of the bastille or the attack on pearl harbor. There are now nearly 300 np programs open or in the planning stages (versus 125 med schools). Furthermore, np's have been pushing their realm of practice into fields that would have been inconceivable just five years ago. Physicians once and for all need to come together and assert themselves against this hijacking of our profession that we all worked so hard for! Call and write your legislators. Email your state health dept and medical societies. Send a link to this thread to all your classmates and coresidents. Tweet, blog, make a video, start a facebook group....be proactive and get the word out. I, too, fully endorse drafting a letter and would strongly recommend making it a sticky since this issue has struck such a nerve among so many of us here on sdn this week. We can look at this letter as our "declaration of independence" from any further encroachment and decay in the medical field.
 
1. Doc, I don't know how many times I've said it ... patient safety is a huge, huge concern. HOWEVER, despite popular opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking out for one's own self interest. You act like it's a dirty thing to protect the physician's role in society. The two go hand in hand.

2. I guess I'll have to take your word for it ...

You're not paying attention.

I never said that we shouldn't look out for our own interests. However, you cannot use that as the platform for your arguments. You will lose. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to shed a single tear for us greedy, overpaid doctors. You're going to need to argue your points from the standpoint of what's best for the public and for patients. It's also what the opposition will do, if they're smart. When they make some of the ridiculous statements that were quoted in the article, it doesn't help their case.
 
Technically, I'm allowed to start up my own soda company tomorrow and compete with coke and pepsi and set up a stand on the corner. BUT, I couldn't wake up in the morning and advertise myself as a surgeon, and set up a clinic on the corner.

Legally (at least in some states), you could. My Virginia license allows me to practice "medicine and surgery" in the Commonwealth. However, getting credentialed with payers and facilities and covered for malpractice would likely prove difficult (read: impossible), and for good reason.

Similarly, these so-called nursing "residencies" don't legally permit them to do anything that they couldn't do already. Scope expansion requires legislation, not just training.
 
I don't think they can do as well as physicians. I just think they should be given the opportunity to try and prove themselves. If you counter with, "well what about safety?" There is that famous statement from Jefferson about giving up liberties for safety.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

This was actually Ben Franklin's comment, later quoted by Jefferson. It had NOTHING to do with what you're talking about.
 
... There are no guarantees for law graduates, who have debt just as high, if not higher than medical students. ...

Well, there is one key guarantee for law grads -- that only lawyers get to practice law. They have a ton of competition within the field, but none from midlevels or other fields. Paralegals, accountants, realtors all took their turns at trying to grab the ability to do certain paperwork and services as part of their own practice, and each was sued and lobbied against relentlessly as trying to engage in the unauthorized practice of law. So guess what -- even today anybody other than a lawyer or working under a lawyer who helps you with your will, your reorg, your real estate closing, etc is breaking the law and subject to lawsuit. Medicine should actually use law as a model. Law came under very similar attacks when eg a group of paralegals in NJ decided they could provide the same services without their boss, a lawyer, so they tried to open up shop. They were sued into oblivion. Realtors decided closings would be a lot faster and cheaper if they just helped their clients with the paperwork without a lawyer mucking up the deal. Another big series of successful lawsuits. And so on. I have no idea why medicine isn't taking this kind of step. The things lawyers seem to do better than medicine is (1) make it really clear what they consider the practice of law and never turn a blind eye when someone steps over that line, (2) significant lobbying efforts, (3) sending a lot of their ilk to higher office, and (4) most importantly, they have strong organizations which collect a lot of money from their membership. Few physicians pay a grand or two to various organizations as "membership fees", while almost all lawyers do. And guess what -- this money is used to protect the organizations and its members interests.

You can write all the letters and make all the phone calls you want. The real defense of the profession starts when a lobbyist or lawyer is paid to get this taken care of.
 
I have no idea why medicine isn't taking this kind of step.

Because the AMA got its ass handed to it back in the 1960's when they tried to squelch chiropractic.

Lawyers will always retain the advantage when it comes to protecting their interests through the force of law. After all, they have an unlimited supply of ammunition.

You can write all the letters and make all the phone calls you want. The real defense of the profession starts when a lobbyist or lawyer is paid to get this taken care of.

Support your PACs, folks.

👍
 
I am being hypothetical with healthcare, and very idealistic. I admit it.

As for why people would get involved with cash only when they have insurance. Again, this goes back to my question about the type of insurance that is mandatory. If extremely low premium, high catastrophic is accepted, then lots of studies (I'm too lazy to find these right now :laugh:) show patients (relatively healthy) can save tons of money going down this path (it's like extreme health savings accounts). But if government requires only typical "feed the insurance beast" high monthly premium insurance, then yeah cash only could dwindle.

As for Dr. Noctor (which is a funny way of saying it), I just blame this on the stupidity of people. Again, I will only see a physician for my health care. I see my Fam Physician twice a year? I know what age he went to med school, where he went, where he did his residency, what his favorite clinical rotations were in school, what areas of medicine does he research and love to practice in his career, etc. Do people really not ask questions about their provider?

First, consumer protection laws exist precisely because consumers are allowed to assume things in our society, and if things aren't what they seem people are duped. When you buy a product, you are allowed to assume it will work for the purpose it is sold. You don't have to know if a knife is made of stainless steel vs tin to be allowed to assume that when you buy a knife it will function as a good quality knife. It's not really any different here. When someone comes into the room and introduces themselves as Doctor X, and is wearing a white coat, and says they are board certified in dermatology, you are allowed to assume that this is a physician who has completed a dermatology residency. It's not your job to say, where did you go to med school, where did you do your residency, what organization boarded you? It's great if you are that inquisitive, but it's not expected of you, nor is it required of you as a consumer. You are allowed to rely on the reasonable expectations one would have when a care-provider makes those statements. So yes, this is false advertising.

As for "free market" taking care of this issue, the problem is that free market works a lot better with goods than services. Laws like consumer protection, false advertising, etc exist because a non-expert can't always tell if they are being duped when the "product" being sold is someone's expertise. There have always been charlatan doctors in medicine, so called "snake oil salesmen" who sell useless products and customers rely on their expertise as physicians. There are even a couple of infomercials on late night TV that fit this description. That's illegal. But a free market doesn't correct for this because the consumer doesn't know any better, often until it's too late.

The real problem with letting the free market gauge the DNP, is that for, say, 80% of the office visits, the patient's complaint is not so significant, and someone with DNP training probably will handle the issue as well as a physician. What the physician really brings to the table is the ability to recognize and treat that other 20%. You think horses, not zebras, but you had better be able to quickly recognize those few zebras. So in theory a physician could go through a career never really needing a lot of their medical training, and an NP could go through a career never catching one of those 20%. And the free market would say, "hey, this NP provides equal service at a fraction of the price, this person is "better"). But that isn't true for that 20% who die because they didn't get physician care. This was the kind of argument that wasn't effectively made a few decades ago when physicians fought the chiropractic industry in court, calling them "quacks". I think most of us have come across a patient who ended up with a death sentence because they sought chiropractic care instead of physician care, and got manipulation when they really needed chemo. The same will hold true of the 20% who go to the NPs. You learn a lot in a longer schooling and residency. 1000 hours doesn't do what 15000 hours does in terms of preparing you for what you may have to deal with. It gives you a decent ability to handle the routine, which is what a lot of patients need, but it does a big disservice for the smaller group that actually don't have a routine problem. Now there may be a need to ration medical care, and to this extent an NP handling routine issues may be fine, much like a non-MD person working as a medic in wartime. But nobody should kid themselves that this is comparable care because even when they are doing the same tasks, the physician brings a heck of a lot more training to the table, able to recognize the not-so-routine things. But for the free market to factor this in, the public has to understand this, and they don't. They just see someone in a white coat who is introducing them as a doctor, accepting their insurance, and able to see them on shorter notice.

So NPs win in the free market -- shorter waits, cheaper, but provide significantly worse care on the X% of things their much shorter training neglects. Plain and simple. Do you want someone who can handle the routine but be lethal for the non-routine, or do you expect your "doctor" to be able to recognize when there's a problem. If the question is posed this way, most of the public will say they want their doctor to recognize problems. But nobody is phrasing the question this way, and, looking at the article, there is a lot of propoganda about how the NP is doing the exact same job as the doctor, and even calling their short derm bootcamp a "residency" as if it has anything to do with the grueling 3-5 years physicians go through.
 
Because the AMA got its ass handed to it back in the 1960's when they tried to squelch chiropractic.

Lawyers will always retain the advantage when it comes to protecting their interests through the force of law. After all, they have an unlimited supply of ammunition.

I see this as a cop out. Bwaaaa Bwaaa Bwaaaa, the lawyers have it easier, we can't do a good job at this so we shouldn't even try.

We lost a lawsuit 40 years ago because we didn't do a good job of explaining an issue to the lay public and somehow thought the public would rally around us when we played the role of bully calling all chiropractors "quacks" (yes, this term was raised in the lawsuit). The doctors got cocky, expected everyone to see the issue the same way they did, and ended up losing to a jury who couldn't tell one set of "doctors" from another.

If at first you don't succeed, you don't give up forever, you try try again. And next time you use bigger guns (the media) to help your effort and make the public understand what they are losing when they can't even trust their doctor to actually be a doctor. There have to be horror stories of folks who didn't fair well after being cared for by a DNP. Those people should be paraded out as the face of medicine in the near future. I have no idea why the field isn't doing this. The time is now. We should be taking steps to work with the Obama administration to service the additional patients with the help of midlevels working under physicians, not allowing non-physicians to use it as a free for all to grab their share of the pie. Each doctor should double their capacity with the help of PAs and NPs working under them, not shrug their shoulders as an DNP sets up across the street to run a competing dermatology practice. No good can come of the laxity with which the profession is approaching this issue. The professions are at war and we have decided to be Poland in WWII -- happy to let our neighbors encroach into our territory as much as they want without much fight.
 
I see this as a cop out. Bwaaaa Bwaaa Bwaaaa, the lawyers have it easier, we can't do a good job at this so we shouldn't even try.

It's not that simple. This is a battlefield with fifty fronts. NP scope of practice issues are dealt with on a state-by-state basis. What the AMA did 40 years ago with chiropractic was try try to stomp out an entire profession. Even if they dusted themselves off and decided to try that again, it's not the same thing. Doctors have been employing mid-level providers for decades. They can't all of a sudden turn around and say that they suck. Sure, they can argue against independent practice, but that cat's been out of the bag for a long time in many states. There is still plenty of work to be done, and it's entirely dishonest to suggest that physicians aren't "doing anything" about it. They may not be rioting in the streets, but that's not how these things get done, anyway.

This is a legal battle, and you of all people should know that. It's not a jury trial, and it won't be won or lost in the court of public opinion. What we need are for legislators to take our side, and that takes lobbying, which takes money. Our PACs are underfunded compared to the Nurses' PACs, and that shouldn't be so.
 
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I posted this on the derm forum.

My analysis and predictions are coming true. Hint, read my signature. Damn, if this was the stock market, I would be a freakin' billionaire.

Let me give you guys some more analysis.

The nurses didn't create the DNP and now the nursing derm residency to compete head-on with the physicians in knowledge. There's no comparison and they understand that.

What do they want then? They want to cherry-pick the easiest work for themselves and increase their salaries. They will leave the "physician specialists" with the complicated, time-consuming, zebras. They'll take the horses and line their pockets that way, thank you very much.

What is the goal of the DNP and the nursing residency? To be able to introduce themselves as "Hello, my name is Dr. xxx. I'm a board-certified dermatologist" Which board (that's the catch)? "The nursing boards of course". Is the term "dermatologist" a protected term? If not, the nurses will usurp it for themselves. Even if it is a protected term, the nurses will call themselves something like "dermatology nurse specialist" or whatever. The vast majority of patients won't know the difference or care about these terms. It's all medical word salad to patients. You see, that's what the nurses are counting on. Over the years, they've come to understand that most patients are not that sophisticated or care about degrees. If you are certified by some group and allowed legally to do it, then patients have the impression that everything is fine. The nurses' goal is to make the public and politicians think that a dermatology residency trained DNP = dermatologist.

Like I've been saying, 80% of derm can be handled by FP and most cases are not life-threatening. A useful question to ask is what part of dermatology will the nurses go after? They will go after the easiest, lowest risk, highest paid areas. Cosmetics including acne are the likeliest areas. DO NOT THINK FOR A SECOND THAT THESE NURSES WILL ACCEPT ONLY MEDICARE AND INSURANCE. THEY WILL GO AFTER THE SAME CASH-PAYING PATIENTS AS YOU.

Anyways, I wish I had more time to put down more thoughts. Busy with residency. Also house hunting. Not much time.​

Bottom line, get politically active. Donate to your groups.

DO NOT HIRE OR TRAIN DNP/NP'S. Educate your patients about the differences. If you see malpractice by a DNP/NP, point it out to your patients. Encourage them to pursue lawsuits for malpractice.

The only thing that will stop the nurses in their tracks is LAWSUITS.
 
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My analysis and predictions are coming true. Hint, read my signature. Damn, if this was the stock market, I would be a freakin' billionaire.

All of those nuts with the signs saying "the end is near" will eventually be right, too. 😉

Bottom line, get politically active. Donate to your groups.

👍
 
First, consumer protection laws exist precisely because consumers are allowed to assume things in our society, and if things aren't what they seem people are duped. When you buy a product, you are allowed to assume it will work for the purpose it is sold. You don't have to know if a knife is made of stainless steel vs tin to be allowed to assume that when you buy a knife it will function as a good quality knife. It's not really any different here. When someone comes into the room and introduces themselves as Doctor X, and is wearing a white coat, and says they are board certified in dermatology, you are allowed to assume that this is a physician who has completed a dermatology residency.
This could still be in a free market situation. There is no counter argument here.


It's not your job to say, where did you go to med school, where did you do your residency, what organization boarded you? It's great if you are that inquisitive, but it's not expected of you, nor is it required of you as a consumer.
Yet this is required when you buy your car, your safety equipment as a mountain climber, a mountain bike, etc.

You are allowed to rely on the reasonable expectations one would have when a care-provider makes those statements. So yes, this is false advertising.
When an NP introduces himself/herself as an NP, and not as a doctor, and has not faked any credentials, we are NOT talking false advertising.

As for "free market" taking care of this issue, the problem is that free market works a lot better with goods than services. Laws like consumer protection, false advertising, etc exist because a non-expert can't always tell if they are being duped when the "product" being sold is someone's expertise. There have always been charlatan doctors in medicine, so called "snake oil salesmen" who sell useless products and customers rely on their expertise as physicians. There are even a couple of infomercials on late night TV that fit this description. That's illegal. But a free market doesn't correct for this because the consumer doesn't know any better, often until it's too late.
True.

The real problem with letting the free market gauge the DNP, is that for, say, 80% of the office visits, the patient's complaint is not so significant, and someone with DNP training probably will handle the issue as well as a physician. What the physician really brings to the table is the ability to recognize and treat that other 20%. You think horses, not zebras, but you had better be able to quickly recognize those few zebras. So in theory a physician could go through a career never really needing a lot of their medical training, and an NP could go through a career never catching one of those 20%. And the free market would say, "hey, this NP provides equal service at a fraction of the price, this person is "better"). But that isn't true for that 20% who die because they didn't get physician care.
Still not an argument against the free market, because people would still be able to judge for themselves whether you want to pay extra to get the zebra-insurance.

This was the kind of argument that wasn't effectively made a few decades ago when physicians fought the chiropractic industry in court, calling them "quacks". I think most of us have come across a patient who ended up with a death sentence because they sought chiropractic care instead of physician care, and got manipulation when they really needed chemo.
You don't have to be a chiro to f*ck up. I know of doctors who never did the correct workup for what proved to be carcinoma.

But for the free market to factor this in, the public has to understand this, and they don't. They just see someone in a white coat who is introducing them as a doctor, accepting their insurance, and able to see them on shorter notice.
Some fit this description. Some don't.

So NPs win in the free market -- shorter waits, cheaper, but provide significantly worse care on the X% of things their much shorter training neglects. Plain and simple.
Then it is ok. Let them win.

Do you want someone who can handle the routine but be lethal for the non-routine, or do you expect your "doctor" to be able to recognize when there's a problem. If the question is posed this way, most of the public will say they want their doctor to recognize problems.
The question is, how much are you willing to pay for the extra service, and do you want to be able to have the choice?

Free up the market!!!!!!!
 
It's not that simple. This is a battlefield with fifty fronts. NP scope of practice issues are dealt with on a state-by-state basis. What the AMA did 40 years with chiropractic was try try to stomp out an entire profession. Even if they dusted themselves off and decided to try that again, it's not the same thing. Doctors have been employing mid-level providers for decades. They can't all of a sudden turn around and say that they suck. Sure, they can argue against independent practice, but that cat's been out of the bag for a long time in many states. There is still plenty of work to be done, and it's entirely dishonest to suggest that physicians aren't "doing anything" about it. They may not be rioting in the streets, but that's not how these things get done, anyway.

This is a legal battle, and you of all people should know that. It's not a jury trial, and it won't be won or lost in the court of public opinion. What we need are for legislators to take our side, and that takes lobbying, which takes money. Our PACs are underfunded compared to the Nurses' PACs, and that shouldn't be so.

It's actually VERY simple, and yes it's a legal battle, and one that ought to be fought in a court, with a jury. It's virtually identical to the case where paralegals (the equivalent midlevels in the legal profession) wanted to go off and start their own shops without any supervisors. Lawyers didn't bash the paralegals or say "they suck", they simply drew a distinction as to what constituted the practice of law and what didn't. And these folks were trying to engage in the unauthorized practice of law without a license. Plain and simple. Quick and clean -- you aren't legally allowed to do this, so you can't do this. Now go back to your old job, until you can save enough for law school.
Guess what -- the practice of law is licensed on a state by state basis, just like medicine is licensed on a state by state basis, and that doesn't make the analysis or the approach different. And yes, it's easier than the chiropractic suit because we aren't trying to eliminate an entire profession, just to protect the boundaries of what constitutes the practice of medicine. NPs can work under doctors til the cows come home, and perhaps there are a finite number of tasks we are prepared to carve out for them which we don't consider the practice of medicine, but when they open their own shop without supervision and hold themselves out as doctors (or board certified dermatologists, no less), is when we (and the public, really) should be calling foul. That's the suit we should be filing, and that's the one that's not only winnable, but there's a perfect road map for us in the legal profession. To say we lost a suit 40 years ago, so we should just stick our head into the sand and hope they leave us with a job is ludicrous. And all legal/quasi-political battles can be won/lost in the world of public opinion. If the public is uncomfortable with folks calling themselves doctors who aren't, someone looking for votes will jump on that band wagon. This can become a party issue. Heck it could be a nice FOX News "travesty of the Obama health plan" if someone spun it this way (not that I'm a fan of non-objective media outlets). Throw O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Hannity or Beck a bone and let them run with it. Kind of like selling your soul to the devil (but then again I'm already advocating getting lawyers involved too, so it's really just another WMD.)

One other thought -- it might pay to make some noise to the insurance industry here. One could argue that these DNPs ought to be paying the same kind of premiums that an insurance company would charge a physician with a mere 1000 hours of residency training (ie 3 months) who set up shop. And to the legal industry, who ought to be gearing up for malpractice suits -- doctors ought to offer themselves up as experts gratis to testify regularly that this or that DNP wasn't practicing with a reasonable standard of care of a physician in that field whenever that argument can be made with a straight face. The point I'm trying to make is that there are a ton of ways to skin this cat, but so far medicine has taken the "let's leave the cat alone and hope it goes away" approach. It's ponderous.
 
To say we lost a suit 40 years ago, so we should just stick our head into the sand and hope they leave us with a job is ludicrous.

I agree. Good thing nobody said that.

And all legal/quasi-political battles can be won/lost in the world of public opinion.

That clearly wasn't the case with the recent healthcare bill.

it might pay to make some noise to the insurance industry here. One could argue that these DNPs ought to be paying the same kind of premiums that an insurance company would charge a physician with a mere 1000 hours of residency training (ie 3 months) who set up shop. And to the legal industry, who ought to be gearing up for malpractice suits -- doctors ought to offer themselves up as experts gratis to testify regularly that this or that DNP wasn't practicing with a reasonable standard of care of a physician in that field whenever that argument can be made with a straight face.

None of that would matter unless things had already happened. What we need to be doing at this point is prevent it from happening.

so far medicine has taken the "let's leave the cat alone and hope it goes away" approach. It's ponderous.

It's also inaccurate.
 
...
That clearly wasn't the case with the recent healthcare bill.
...

It's also inaccurate.

Disagree with both these statements. First, the healthcare bill exists because the majority of this country expected the Obama administration to address healthcare, this was one of the hot button issues that got him elected. The physicians pretty much stayed out of the healthcare planning stage to their detriment. The conservative media is trying to make a stink that somehow this healthcare bill was created in a dark room and thrust down the nation's throat without the public even being for healthcare reform, but that simply isn't the case. Now I think there's an absurd amount of ignorance about what this bill entails beyond creating inexpensive insurance that you are forced to buy, but that doesn't mean that public opinion for Obama and the Democratic congress to "get something, anything, done already" didn't push this forward.

Disagree with your notion that medicine isn't sitting on their hands with the midlevel DNP issue to date. They are. I keep reading articles in various medical journals suggesting physicians run for office or get more involved, but it's one thing to write and article and another for someone to actually pony up. Physicians want to just focus in on their practice and ignore these external concerns. After the Obama bill passed I heard numerous physicians say something to the effect of, "now that it's passed, I guess I'd better read it and see what it says". You can't ignore your professional interests in this way.
 
The conservative media is trying to make a stink that somehow this healthcare bill was created in a dark room and thrust down the nation's throat without the public even being for healthcare reform, but that simply isn't the case.

We'll know in November.

After the Obama bill passed I heard numerous physicians say something to the effect of, "now that it's passed, I guess I'd better read it and see what it says". You can't ignore your professional interests in this way.

Some of us were quite actively involved, and continue to be. I do agree with you that most doctors lack the time, expertise, and/or inclination to do anything on the political front. However, there's nothing stopping them from donating to their PACs to support those who can.
 
It's actually VERY simple, and yes it's a legal battle, and one that ought to be fought in a court, with a jury. It's virtually identical to the case where paralegals (the equivalent midlevels in the legal profession) wanted to go off and start their own shops without any supervisors. Lawyers didn't bash the paralegals or say "they suck", they simply drew a distinction as to what constituted the practice of law and what didn't. And these folks were trying to engage in the unauthorized practice of law without a license. Plain and simple. Quick and clean -- you aren't legally allowed to do this, so you can't do this. Now go back to your old job, until you can save enough for law school.
Guess what -- the practice of law is licensed on a state by state basis, just like medicine is licensed on a state by state basis, and that doesn't make the analysis or the approach different. And yes, it's easier than the chiropractic suit because we aren't trying to eliminate an entire profession, just to protect the boundaries of what constitutes the practice of medicine. NPs can work under doctors til the cows come home, and perhaps there are a finite number of tasks we are prepared to carve out for them which we don't consider the practice of medicine, but when they open their own shop without supervision and hold themselves out as doctors (or board certified dermatologists, no less), is when we (and the public, really) should be calling foul. That's the suit we should be filing, and that's the one that's not only winnable, but there's a perfect road map for us in the legal profession.

Great post Law2Doc.

Are there any articles or books offering a summation of the proceedings taken by lawyers against paralegals? Under what jurisdiction were these suits filed? I'm curious to see how lawyers framed the initial arguments to get the ball-rolling in their legal battle. Great precedence as you said for our own future fight.
 
Again, the trouble with that strategy is that NPs already have independent practice authority in several states. You can't put the genie back into the bottle.
 
I guess all of us are going to have to go into surgery or surgical subspecialties then haha.
 
I guess all of us are going to have to go into surgery or surgical subspecialties then haha.

I don't know about that. I've seen PA's close up a patient at the end of surgery, and I've seen NPs put in central lines and other quasi surgical procedures. I think it's a mistake to assume the encroachment will stop at primary care and derm. You have people in white coats calling themselves doctors, working cheap, and deciding on their own what they are competent to perform. It's foolish to shrug your shoulders and think you can find some subspecialty to retreat into.
 
It's foolish to shrug your shoulders and think you can find some subspecialty to retreat into.

Correct. NPs are already doing colonoscopies unsupervised in Alaska. It's much easier to learn a procedure than it is to learn the entire scope of primary care, and potentially much more lucrative. No procedural field is safe.
 
Again, the trouble with that strategy is that NPs already have independent practice authority in several states. You can't put the genie back into the bottle.

No, but you can at least confine the cup into which the bottle pours out. If they can independently practice but you define X, Y and Z as the line where they cross over into the practice of medicine, you confine them to a very limited scope, and that still wins the war. So give them the ability to do chemical peels, but say they can't diagnose skin disorders without a medical license. Or something like that.
 
...Under what jurisdiction were these suits filed? I'm curious to see how lawyers framed the initial arguments to get the ball-rolling in their legal battle. Great precedence as you said for our own future fight.

I'm pretty sure some of these cases were in NJ. All court documents tend to become public record so I wouldn't be surprised if you can find a lot of the stuff someplace on the web.
 
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