NP's required to have doctorates in 2012...anyone else see issues with this?

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roseglass6370

roseglass6370

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So I was talking to a nurse at work the other day who is working on getting her NP certification.

She told me that after 2012 all new NP's will be required to get a doctorate degree.

Anyone else see potential problems with a bunch of nurse practitioners walking around the hospital in white coats being called "Dr. Something-or-other?"

I see patients getting confused as well as other medical personnel getting mixed-up as well.

What's your take?
 
NP's or RN's or both? Also would they get a PhD, becasue if they did they wouldn't be walking around with white coats and such, unless it's Hawthorne.
 
So it is a required thing?

I know many NPs who have their DNPs or Ph.D.s, but in a clinical setting they are not called this, they are simply known as mid-level providers, same as with PAs with a doctorate degree.

I don't think they are allowed to use their "Doctor" title in clinical settings, but not too sure about this.
 
Not RNs, just NPs, and they'd be DNPs.

I know that there are already a good amount of DNPs out there, but all NPs?

I dunno, I just think it'd be a little unneccessary. And MexicanDr, I hope you're right that they wouldn't be referred to as Dr.
 
Who cares if they are referred to as "doctor". If they earned a doctorate than they are a doctor of their specific field.
 
ILikeDrugs said:
Who cares if they are referred to as "doctor". If they earned a doctorate than they are a doctor of their specific field.
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I just think it would cause some confusion for patients as to who can do what, who is in charge of what, etc.
 
roseglass6370 said:
I just think it would cause some confusion for patients as to who can do what, who is in charge of what, etc.
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I see your point, but in reality....who cares? I'm not concerned that I'm known as being in charge of stuff. How many doctors does a patient in the hospital see a day anyway, one more title isn't going to hurt them.
JMHO
 
7starmantis said:
I see your point, but in reality....who cares? I'm not concerned that I'm known as being in charge of stuff. How many doctors does a patient in the hospital see a day anyway, one more title isn't going to hurt them.
JMHO
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I feel like it will just confuse the patients. That's #1.
 
Here we go again...

Prediction; this is going to get ugly. There is a very long, and hostile thread on this down at the clinicians forum.
 
Shinobiz11 said:
NP's or RN's or both? Also would they get a PhD, becasue if they did they wouldn't be walking around with white coats and such, unless it's Hawthorne.
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RNs only have to have an associate's degree. They may have a bachelor's degree (BSN), but they only have to have an associate's degree.
 
I think the confusion already exists.

I volunteered in an ER over the summer where the MDs, NPs, and PAs all dressed pretty much the same. The hospital switched ER staff providers (or something...didn't really understand...but it meant new doctors, and NPs/PAs) mid summer and it was the same in both cases. The first bunch all wore identical scrubs and the second lab coats. It could get a little confusing, but so far as I could tell, it didn't have much affect on the patients' experiences.
 
I think the title "Doctor" is ambiguous to begin with with everybody from MDs to people with PhDs in cryptozoology (hunting Bigfoot) applying it to themselves. I feel that only physicians should be referred to as "Doctor" in a clinical setting, not as an ego-stroke for the physician but so that patients understand their clinician's qualifications and scope of practice. For example, Dr. Laura Schlessinger, the radio host who dispenses (questionable?) psychological advice goes by "Doctor" on her show, despite having earned her PhD in physiology. This could mislead callers as to her qualifications to provide psychological advice. If NPs are planning on calling themselves Dr. So and So, it could lead to patients misunderstanding their clinician's qualifications.

Aside from the labeling issues, it seems reasonable to expect NPs to hold a doctoral degree.
 
Do some research before posting ignorance. You are making a post on second hand information a nurse told you. Awesome. How hard is it to look up information before posting? Seriously? The date for this change is slated to be 2015, not 2012 and will not be reached. Even with this date it is just a proposal, not set in stone.

Also, the designation of "Doctor" in DNP is that of an acedemic terminal degree, not a clinical one. If you take issue with a nurse having a doctorate, please take the same issue up with PharmD's, dentists, and hell phd botanists too.

The DNP is a mid level practitioner, nothing more. Those claiming it to be more are wrong, and those railing against it are ignorant. Why wouldn't we want NP's to recieve more education? We have enough issues with mid levels not recieving adequate education or preparation. An initiative is made to mandate both more education and preperation and people are against it? Why? Because of a title? This has been debated and argued against ad nauseum.

Please lock this.
 
Patients are already totally confused about who is who. In a big teaching hospital they're going to see several doctors in various stages of training, several nurses, phlebotomists, RT's, cardiac techs, echo techs, ultrasound techs, CT techs, X-ray techs, several CNA's or PCT's in an average day of running tests. They don't really care what your job title or degree is as long as they're getting listened to when they talk, getting proper care, and getting meals on time. Usually not in that order.
 
I don't have a problem with NPs being called "doctor". For everyone arguing that it's confusing to patients, would you agree that there's a pretty significant difference between an intern and an attending? I'd say there is (in experience and level of decision-making), and yet the patient is introduced to both as doctor with no distinction in title.

The only significant implication that this has is that NPs will have more training, it seems, and I see that as solely a good thing.
 
JonSwan said:
Aside from the labeling issues, it seems reasonable to expect NPs to hold a doctoral degree.
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Exactly. Why would we not want someone who can diagnose and prescribe in many states to have a doctorate.

I don't think that we should assume that just because a NP gets a doctorate that she/he is going to introduce him/herself as doctor blank.
There are already laws in place against this, and said RN would be breaking the law, and I'm sure they are aware of this.

(Duluth) Do some research before posting ignorance. You are making a post on second hand information a nurse told you. Awesome. How hard is it to look up information before posting? Seriously? The date for this change is slated to be 2015, not 2012 and will not be reached. Even with this date it is just a proposal, not set in stone.
Click to expand...
Yep, I have heard from a few that this is not really going to go down. Think about it, we are already short for health care providers. Is the government really going to make it worse (potentially)?

(Duluth)The DNP is a mid level practitioner, nothing more. Those claiming it to be more are wrong, and those railing against it are ignorant. Why wouldn't we want NP's to recieve more education?
Please lock this.
Click to expand...
Once again, FTW.

However, I would like to point out that the main reason I, and others, have a problem with the DNP is that there is no standard set for material, clinical hours, or experience necessary to get into the program. If the DNP idea wants to gain momentum these issues will need to be take care of.
 
The patients won't be any more confused then they already are when it comes to the different types of physicians and what they can do. Just the other day during my volunteer session at an internal medicine physician's office, the patient didn't understand why she had to go to a liver specialist, then to an internal medicine specialist, and then to hematologist. Patients are already confused. Every time some lay person asks me what I want to do, I tell them I want to become a radiologist. They then tell me that so-and-so went to university community college and got their degree in radiology too (rad tech). Most people don't even know that radiologist are medical doctors. Like I said, patients are already confused. What difference does it make if we throw one more type doctor at them. :laugh:

edit: i just noticed someone else wrote a similar response. oh well. 😳
 
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mvenus929 said:
RNs only have to have an associate's degree. They may have a bachelor's degree (BSN), but they only have to have an associate's degree.
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Nursing programs exist for masters and doctorate level already. I think this thread is confusing the level of the degree with the level of care.
Patients will care less and probably not notice. The only people that will have a problem is premeds that think doctorate degrees are reserved for physicians.
 
TheMightySmiter said:
I don't have a problem with NPs being called "doctor". For everyone arguing that it's confusing to patients, would you agree that there's a pretty significant difference between an intern and an attending? I'd say there is (in experience and level of decision-making), and yet the patient is introduced to both as doctor with no distinction in title.

The only significant implication that this has is that NPs will have more training, it seems, and I see that as solely a good thing.
Click to expand...

You are incorrect that a patient is introduced to an attending and an intern as "Dr" with no distinction. I introduce myself as Dr Beanbean, one of the residents on XZY service. My attending is introduced as Dr John Doe, the attending physician on XYZ service. While some pts may not know the difference, many do and it is important to introduce yourself and other physicians appropriately.

I do wish there was a more professional way to address the PA/NP to patients. Referring to yourself as Dr Beanbean and then introducing Bob, the PA can be a little strange. It doesn't sound quite right to say Mr Bob Smith, the PA either, but just using first names can be a bit too informal.
 
Some people obviously have some heated opinions here.

Ego, in my opinion is not the issue. I just honestly think it will cause some confusion. I also think that the number of NPs will go down if they are required to get a doctorate.

I also apologize for my "ignorance," in assuming that a nurse who is currently in an NP program knew what she was talking about when saying NPs would soon be required to get a doctorate.
 
beanbean said:
I do wish there was a more professional way to address the PA/NP to patients. Referring to yourself as Dr Beanbean and then introducing Bob, the PA can be a little strange. It doesn't sound quite right to say Mr Bob Smith, the PA either, but just using first names can be a bit too informal.
Click to expand...

I have heard some docs say "Hi, this is my PA xxxx;" and I've heard other PAs introduce themselves as "PA Smith," but I know plenty of PAs who prefer to be called by just their first name.
 
AMH0505 said:
I think the confusion already exists.

I volunteered in an ER over the summer where the MDs, NPs, and PAs all dressed pretty much the same. The hospital switched ER staff providers (or something...didn't really understand...but it meant new doctors, and NPs/PAs) mid summer and it was the same in both cases. The first bunch all wore identical scrubs and the second lab coats. It could get a little confusing, but so far as I could tell, it didn't have much affect on the patients' experiences.
Click to expand...

I agree, at the hospital I volunteer at the RN's wear white coats too. Hell, the janitor even wears a white coat /facepalm.
 
beanbean said:
You are incorrect that a patient is introduced to an attending and an intern as "Dr" with no distinction. I introduce myself as Dr Beanbean, one of the residents on XZY service. My attending is introduced as Dr John Doe, the attending physician on XYZ service. While some pts may not know the difference, many do and it is important to introduce yourself and other physicians appropriately.
Click to expand...

This isn't necessarily true everywhere. Every hospital has a slightly different system of distinguishing between the different ranks and professions, as has been exemplified by statements in this thread. You're right that many patients do know the difference between a resident and an attending, but many do not know and many just don't care. Regardless of whether you introduce yourself as a resident or as an attending or whatever, the patient still knows you as "Dr. Beanbean" and will probably think of you that way rather than "Dr. Beanbean the resident not the attending" (although there certainly are patients who would know the importance of that distinction). You and the attending both have the same title. My point is, "the patients might be confused" is not a valid reason to argue that NPs shouldn't be allowed to use the title "doctor".
 
greatnt249 said:
There is nothing "technical" about his/her statement; radiologists are doctors (MD or DO).
Click to expand...

I was waiting for that. They did, after all, make it through med-school.
 
Yeah, from the little bit I've read about the NP-->DNP issue, nobody is really analyzing if this transition is necessary. It's very easy for us to assume that more education means more qualified workers means better outcomes for patients. But the NPs opposed to the transition question whether the time and money commitment of ~1 year of nursing courses actually yield significant benefit. We really do live in a world of scarce resources, and accordingly we should question whether expenditures are worth it.

Small Tangent: I recently ran across an article from some physician who argued that medical school should be reduced to 3 years, and the 4th year rolled into the normal intern year. Just something to think about.

But as to the original question about usage of the term "doctor": Super trivial.
 
beanbean said:
I do wish there was a more professional way to address the PA/NP to patients. Referring to yourself as Dr Beanbean and then introducing Bob, the PA can be a little strange. It doesn't sound quite right to say Mr Bob Smith, the PA either, but just using first names can be a bit too informal.
Click to expand...

It seems a little odd to me, too, that in a medical setting you seem to right from the very formal 'Dr. Lastname' for MDs/DOs to the quite informal 'Firstname' for everyone else. I think it's an interesting from a cultural perspective, and I wonder if part of it is that NP and PA are relatively new jobs so we haven't quite figured out how to categorize them in that way.


And, on a tangential note about the non-specificity of the title 'Doctor,' technically lawyers holding a JD can call themselves 'Doctor,' but most don't unless they're in an academic profession.
 
CoolWhipp said:
http://www.utmem.edu/nursing/academic programs/DNP/index.php

Get your online doctorate today! You too will be called a doctor in all clinical settings for your expertise in medical ethics. You badass, you. Sign up now!
Click to expand...

Besides the questionable need for extra education (often 30 or so credit hours of "nursing theory"), this is the biggest problem w/ DNP programs, i.e. lack of a standardized education. Some programs are very good, and as you can see, others not so good.
 
i think the "technically" thing was a joke.. you know.. because they don't really ever see patients...
 
bleargh said:
i think the "technically" thing was a joke.. you know.. because they don't really ever see patients...
Click to expand...

Neither does House, but nobody questions him being a doctor. :meanie:

I know, I know, refer to bleargh's avatar
 
i guess it was lost on a few... oh well.

no disrespect intended. i'm fully aware it's legit...

but funny story- i once watched a ER doc and an IM hospitalist talking about medical shenanigans and a Radiologist was present. it looked like he had absolutely no idea what the other two were talking about.
 
I don't see a problem with it as long as they introduce themselves as nurse practitioners and not as actual medical doctors.
 
vividvirgo said:
I don't see a problem with it as long as they introduce themselves as nurse practitioners and not as actual medical doctors.
Click to expand...

perhaps you will when they start billing with same Medicare rate as MD PCP's. BTW, this is something already in the works... read the clinician forums.
 
devilpup said:
perhaps you will when they start billing with same Medicare rate as MD PCP's. BTW, this is something already in the works... read the clinician forums.
Click to expand...

I know I am going to regret this; but why does it matter when there is more than enough work to go around in primary care? Maybe if more doctors would go into primary care NP's would not get away with charging the same amount. This is where you say, "because the pay is not good enough for MD's to go into primary care." So perfect, let the NP's take the jobs doctors don't want.


EDIT: And as you say, it is "in the works," who knows if it will become reality or not.
 
I am pre-nursing right now. I am working towards my DNP degree. I will be practicing in AZ where DNPs have complete autonomy with no legal requirement for MD oversight. I will be working in my own practice as a general practician. In my state I would be considered a Dr. (hence the doctorate) and can/must refer to my self as a Dr and DNP. Both set of letters must be in my title. I know this makes a lot of MD's pre-MD's nervous and upset but you have to understand that physicians are a dying breed do to the Political/economic environment. DNP's are only filling a medical void. Not creating one.
 
windsblow said:
I am pre-nursing right now. I am working towards my DNP degree. I will be practicing in AZ where DNPs have complete autonomy with no legal requirement for MD oversight. I will be working in my own practice as a general practician. In my state I would be considered a Dr. (hence the doctorate) and can/must refer to my self as a Dr and DNP. Both set of letters must be in my title. I know this makes a lot of MD's pre-MD's nervous and upset but you have to understand that physicians are a dying breed do to the Political/economic environment. DNP's are only filling a medical void. Not creating one.
Click to expand...
So you created an account just to write this? Stirring up the pot... excellent.
 
I have only had interactions with an NP once... and she certainly needed to go through more education. This is not a reflection on all NP's, but the one I saw was incompetent and unprofessional. I don't care who I have to call Doctor, as long as they know what they're doing.
 
pooghe said:
So you created an account just to write this? Stirring up the pot... excellent.
Click to expand...

She wasn't 'stirring the pot' so much as she was pointing out how things work in her state. Well, at least if you ignore the ridiculous/unsubstantiated "physicians are a dying breed" claim... :laugh:

Seriously, though, who cares what Nurse Practicioners call themselves? Frankly, I think it would be easier if they went by 'Dr'. There are nurse practicioners at the clinic where I volunteer, and I never know what to call them... :laugh: Seriously, just calling them Dr. Smith would be so much easier.
 
windsblow said:
I am pre-nursing right now. I am working towards my DNP degree. I will be practicing in AZ where DNPs have complete autonomy with no legal requirement for MD oversight. I will be working in my own practice as a general practician. In my state I would be considered a Dr. (hence the doctorate) and can/must refer to my self as a Dr and DNP. Both set of letters must be in my title. I know this makes a lot of MD's pre-MD's nervous and upset but you have to understand that physicians are a dying breed do to the Political/economic environment. DNP's are only filling a medical void. Not creating one.
Click to expand...

Does an autonomous DNP have to have the same malpractice as a physician?
 
At the hospital I work at, all the PAs in the ED, residents and students regard them as "Dr" because of their vast experiences, especially the ones that have been in the field for >20 years.
 
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