NSU-COM versus LMU-DCOM

[ForeverDoc]

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Hi everyone,

I am a new poster to SDN (my first post!) but really needed some input in deciding where I should attend.

I was accepted at both NSU-COM and LMU-DCOM and feel very strongly about both schools. NSU-COM has a great reputation, great rotation sites, and a great location, but costs quite a bit more than LMU. On the other hand, I felt completely comfortable at LMU-DCOM, like I was part of of a family. I thought they had wonderful facilities, but wonder if because it is a newer school, I will be worse off come applying for residencies/will not receive enough training during clinical years. I am from a larger city, so while I loved how beautiful the campus was, I am slightly nervous about living in such a small town. I am not sure about specialization at this point, but am leaning towards primary care.

Students seem to be equally happy at both schools, and I was originally leaning towards NSU, but cannot get over the positive feeling I had on my interview at LMU. I want to make sure that I make the right decision for the long term, and not just because "something felt right."

Any response would be greatly appreciated!

 

[scotchtapetest]

Hi everyone,

I am a new poster to SDN (my first post!) but really needed some input in deciding where I should attend.

I was accepted at both NSU-COM and LMU-DCOM and feel very strongly about both schools. NSU-COM has a great reputation, great rotation sites, and a great location, but costs quite a bit more than LMU. On the other hand, I felt completely comfortable at LMU-DCOM, like I was part of of a family. I thought they had wonderful facilities, but wonder if because it is a newer school, I will be worse off come applying for residencies/will not receive enough training during clinical years. I am from a larger city, so while I loved how beautiful the campus was, I am slightly nervous about living in such a small town. I am not sure about specialization at this point, but am leaning towards primary care.

Students seem to be equally happy at both schools, and I was originally leaning towards NSU, but cannot get over the positive feeling I had on my interview at LMU. I want to make sure that I make the right decision for the long term, and not just because "something felt right."

Any response would be greatly appreciated!

Even if you hated Nova, go to Nova. LMU is a brand new school and although I'm sure they are just fine, a more established school always wins over a brand new school (IMHO)!

Cost is only an issue if you are paying for it out of pocket or when comparing two established or two new schools. I don't know about clinical training at either place BUT you will be much better off for residency at Nova. Also, Nova has a s***load of AOA residencies in competitive fields if that's something you are interested in and they would prefer Nova students to non-Nova students.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Yaaaay, always look forward to posting in these sort of threads 🙂

I always tell anyone to go with your gut. Beyond that....

Cost- the cost isn't that different. At least based on what I looked at on Nova's site. I think my tuition this year was something like $36k. Nova, out of state, is listed at $38.8k. That really isn't a big enough difference to worry about....$10k? Maybe, but not $3k.

Location- if you're not confident that you can handle rural areas for at least 2 years, I'd be nervous about committing to this. For 3rd and 4th year, you currently have the opportunity to rotate through Knoxville or Memphis for the stuff that is required, so a bigger city is feasible. I personally have opted to live in Knoxville for my 2nd year even because there's just a certain level of sanity it brings to me. A LOT of my classmates do the same....we just commute in as needed. Our lectures are recorded so I don't have to make the drive that often, maybe 2x a week.

Rotations- as stated above, the opportunity to rotate at Knoxville and Memphis exists. This next year those 2 sites offer spots for 32 students, but that can always change. That said, you have the chance to do a big teaching hospital if that's what you so desire. You sacrifice the first assist type opportunities though from what I understand because you're hiding behind UT students, residents, etc. I would much rather go to a site where I get to do things, but that's just my personal prefernce. Also, only 11 out of the 22 rotations we do are required to be in a certain location or area. Other than that, you are free to roam the country and rotate with any doc of your choosing, as long as their credentials get checked out and can be verified. My point is this....rotations becomes such a hot topic, but I hear nothing but great things for the most part from our upperclassmen. They've impressed one hospital so much (good pre-clinical training!) that they're hoping to open a residency program to attract students from our school there, according to one very reliable source. You won't be cheated.

Residency/connections- I'm a firm believer that the school's length of establishment isn't the only deciding factor here. We have some VERY established faculty at our school and I honestly believe they can get you where you need/want to go. They have worked all over with so many people. Also, there's something to be said about a newly graduated class....I'm fairly certain that any of our new grads in these first few years will do anything to help out a student from their alma mater. That may sound silly, but it truly is a family setting here and I firmly stand behind this. Either way, if you're that worried about it, then go to Nova. Some people will never rest easy knowing they could've gone to a more established "reputable" school....personally, I prefer to see the students come here that just don't care and are ready to create the reputation themselves. If you're interested in primary care, you will get an AMAZING education here and will likely be able to go anywhere you want to go in the country. Yeah yeah, I'm a 2nd year, what do I know? I know a lot more than most do at this point namely because I'm constantly researching, constantly talking to upperclassmen and faculty about things and am involved enough in this school to have a very good feel for what's going on and what's not going on.

Plus...we just hired a GME director if that gives you any idea of where things are headed.... 🙂

All in all, you just have to go with what feels right. I'll never tell anyone that going to a newer school isn't a risk. Of course it is. I would never also never tell someone to come to my school just because I'm having a great experience. It may not be the best fit for you. Each school will have its pros and cons, remember. No matter where you end up, you'll find flaws. So just decide which of the things you wrote about are the most important to you and see which school does you the best in those areas.

Good luck deciding! If you have any questions about DCOM feel free to shoot me a PM.. Also check out my blog...I started from orientation day 1 so it's thorough. I don't get paid or anything, so it's a raw attempt at showing people what my experiences have been. 🙂

 

[poopyhead]

Cost- the cost isn't that different. At least based on what I looked at on Nova's site. I think my tuition this year was something like $36k. Nova, out of state, is listed at $38.8k. That really isn't a big enough difference to worry about....$10k? Maybe, but not $3k.

NSU's OOS tuition is actually 45.5K Add to that the increased cost of living there, and the total COA difference between the two schools is quite substantial over the entire four years.

That said, NSU's campus is very nice (best I've ever seen, almost like a resort), and the surrounding location is awesome. NSU is also much more established, have better rotations, more GMEs, and more dual-degree options (i.e. DO/DMD, which I believe is the only DO school offering this combination).

 

[Total180]

Yaaaay, always look forward to posting in these sort of threads 🙂

I always tell anyone to go with your gut. Beyond that....

Cost- the cost isn't that different. At least based on what I looked at on Nova's site. I think my tuition this year was something like $36k. Nova, out of state, is listed at $38.8k. That really isn't a big enough difference to worry about....$10k? Maybe, but not $3k.

Location- if you're not confident that you can handle rural areas for at least 2 years, I'd be nervous about committing to this. For 3rd and 4th year, you currently have the opportunity to rotate through Knoxville or Memphis for the stuff that is required, so a bigger city is feasible. I personally have opted to live in Knoxville for my 2nd year even because there's just a certain level of sanity it brings to me. A LOT of my classmates do the same....we just commute in as needed. Our lectures are recorded so I don't have to make the drive that often, maybe 2x a week.

Rotations- as stated above, the opportunity to rotate at Knoxville and Memphis exists. This next year those 2 sites offer spots for 32 students, but that can always change. That said, you have the chance to do a big teaching hospital if that's what you so desire. You sacrifice the first assist type opportunities though from what I understand because you're hiding behind UT students, residents, etc. I would much rather go to a site where I get to do things, but that's just my personal prefernce. Also, only 11 out of the 22 rotations we do are required to be in a certain location or area. Other than that, you are free to roam the country and rotate with any doc of your choosing, as long as their credentials get checked out and can be verified. My point is this....rotations becomes such a hot topic, but I hear nothing but great things for the most part from our upperclassmen. They've impressed one hospital so much (good pre-clinical training!) that they're hoping to open a residency program to attract students from our school there, according to one very reliable source. You won't be cheated.

Residency/connections- I'm a firm believer that the school's length of establishment isn't the only deciding factor here. We have some VERY established faculty at our school and I honestly believe they can get you where you need/want to go. They have worked all over with so many people. Also, there's something to be said about a newly graduated class....I'm fairly certain that any of our new grads in these first few years will do anything to help out a student from their alma mater. That may sound silly, but it truly is a family setting here and I firmly stand behind this. Either way, if you're that worried about it, then go to Nova. Some people will never rest easy knowing they could've gone to a more established "reputable" school....personally, I prefer to see the students come here that just don't care and are ready to create the reputation themselves. If you're interested in primary care, you will get an AMAZING education here and will likely be able to go anywhere you want to go in the country. Yeah yeah, I'm a 2nd year, what do I know? I know a lot more than most do at this point namely because I'm constantly researching, constantly talking to upperclassmen and faculty about things and am involved enough in this school to have a very good feel for what's going on and what's not going on.

Plus...we just hired a GME director if that gives you any idea of where things are headed.... 🙂

All in all, you just have to go with what feels right. I'll never tell anyone that going to a newer school isn't a risk. Of course it is. I would never also never tell someone to come to my school just because I'm having a great experience. It may not be the best fit for you. Each school will have its pros and cons, remember. No matter where you end up, you'll find flaws. So just decide which of the things you wrote about are the most important to you and see which school does you the best in those areas.

Good luck deciding! If you have any questions about DCOM feel free to shoot me a PM.. Also check out my blog...I started from orientation day 1 so it's thorough. I don't get paid or anything, so it's a raw attempt at showing people what my experiences have been. 🙂

I second all of this. Especially that she knows her stuff.....she is probably one of the most informed/involved people at the school. Now, I must go study so that I don't get a negative grade on this MONSTROSITY that is going to happen on Friday.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

NSU's OOS tuition is actually 45.5K Add to that the increased cost of living there, and the total COA difference between the two schools is quite substantial over the entire four years.

That said, NSU's campus is very nice (best I've ever seen, almost like a resort), and the surrounding location is awesome. NSU is also much more established, have better rotations, more GMEs, and more dual-degree options (i.e. DO/DMD, which I believe is the only DO school offering this combination).

Wow...I have to say I didn't pay that much attention to the "2009-2010" heading over these tuition prices: http://medicine.nova.edu/do/admissions/tuition_fees.html
They seriously need to update that lol. That's impressive to go up that much that quickly....

Location? All depends on what you're looking for. I like my baby mountains over the resort feel honestly.

More established? See the previous post and decide for yourself if that's your main priority.

Better rotations? Until you've gone to both schools, I'm not sure you can rightfully say that, but again, if you believe more years = guaranteed better rotations, I'm not here to argue with you since I also have not attended both programs.

More GMEs? Again, see previous post with mention of hiring a GME director. You don't pay someone to just sit and twiddle their thumbs....and by 2016, I see great things happening 🙂

More dual degree options? Uhhh, ok? I mean, if you're looking to really do a dual degree then I guess that's necessary, but the OP never mentioned anything like that. We do offer a DO/MBA and you don't necessarily have to start it the summer before your first year....you can think on it and start it the next year (at least you could before and I believe that's still the case). As to why someone would want to do DO/DMD, I have no idea lol....but to each his own. I guess if you were thinking ENT or something?? I don't know. I had never heard of that one before today 🙂

I second all of this. Especially that she knows her stuff.....she is probably one of the most informed/involved people at the school. Now, I must go study so that I don't get a negative grade on this MONSTROSITY that is going to happen on Friday.

Lol, like how I cited you as a reliable source? 😀 Funny you stumbled on it so quickly...

And you're going to be FINE! Remember that rockin grade you pulled last block? Meditate on that before you press "Begin" on that exam 🙂

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I haven't seen either campus, didn't even apply to LMU, but I have heard great things about the campus. It sounds very nice. And I am sure they are a great school. On the interview, did you feel closer to either one or like you would be even slightly happier? Did the people seem as cool? Were the faculty nice? If there is even a slight feeling toward one, choose it. If the two really are equal and both left the exact same feeling to you, I would choose NSU simply for the name recognition. NSU-DO was established in 1979 whereas LMU-DO is fromv 2006. It doesn't mean that it is bad by any means, but more programs will have seen NSU grads.

However, this is if they were equal in your eyes. If you are leaning towards LMU in any way, forget what i said and definitely go there. And don't use my info as the grail, as I don't know enough about either. Just my input.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

I haven't seen either campus, didn't even apply to LMU, but I have heard great things about the campus. It sounds very nice. And I am sure they are a great school. On the interview, did you feel closer to either one or like you would be even slightly happier? Did the people seem as cool? Were the faculty nice? If there is even a slight feeling toward one, choose it. If the two really are equal and both left the exact same feeling to you, I would choose NSU simply for the name recognition. NSU-DO was established in 1979 whereas LMU-DO is fromv 2006. It doesn't mean that it is bad by any means, but more programs will have seen NSU grads.

However, this is if they were equal in your eyes. If you are leaning towards LMU in any way, forget what i said and definitely go there. And don't use my info as the grail, as I don't know enough about either. Just my input.

Going with your gut seriously is key. You will be happy if you do that and that is pivotal to success academically speaking.

 

[Total180]

Lol, like how I cited you as a reliable source? 😀 Funny you stumbled on it so quickly...

And you're going to be FINE! Remember that rockin grade you pulled last block? Meditate on that before you press "Begin" on that exam 🙂

My Spidey senses were tingling 🙂

 

[corpsman33]

I think you will be getting a good education at either school. But for me personally, cost was a huge factor. I set the limit at 40k per year (tuition) and any school that exceeded that was off-limits.

 

[MrNovember]

Nova from what I know is more established, more recognized, and has a better reputation. I would choose Nova almost solely because of how unimpressed I was by LMU (this is without even seeing Nova). Aspects of LMU's curriculum didn't make much sense, which was an issue brought up by current LMU students themselves at our pizza night. According to one student, there was a class covering basics of patient care in the first year that further medical knowledge to fully understand. He said he was annoyed by this class.

I went on to find out that the first-time board pass rate last year at LMU was "83.6%" as quoted BY MY INTERVIEWER. I have interviewed at 7 DO schools and this was by far the lowest board pass rate I have heard of. While this is sometimes argued to be a reflection on the students, it is more likely resulting from the interaction of the students performance and the quality of the education provided at the school.

As for area, I think Florida wins this as well. It's warm and you can go to the beach. As for TN, some people may like rural areas, but they are not for me. I was told by another current student that only 8% of Harrogate residents have a Bachelor's degree or higher. And only 60% graduate from high school. Like the student who told me this I am not judging; I am just pointing out the environment in which LMU is located.

Like you I did like the "family" feel of LMU, but it was not enough to overcome the other aspects of the school. I withdrew my application from LMU after interviewing. For every post I make about LMU there are going to be 5 glowing reviews of LMU, but again I believe in order to make the most informed decision, all aspects of a school have to be considered. I am doing the same thing as you - deciding between two schools.

Whichever you choose, good luck to you. I am very clearly biased against LMU, but I am sure there are going to be great docs coming out of that school.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Nova from what I know is more established, more recognized, and has a better reputation. I would choose Nova almost solely because of how unimpressed I was by LMU (this is without even seeing Nova). Aspects of LMU's curriculum didn't make much sense, which was an issue brought up by current LMU students themselves at our pizza night. According to one student, there was a class covering basics of patient care in the first year that further medical knowledge to fully understand. He said he was annoyed by this class.

I went on to find out that the first-time board pass rate last year at LMU was "83.6%" as quoted BY MY INTERVIEWER. I have interviewed at 7 DO schools and this was by far the lowest board pass rate I have heard of. While this is sometimes argued to be a reflection on the students, it is more likely resulting from the interaction of the students performance and the quality of the education provided at the school.

As for area, I think Florida wins this as well. It's warm and you can go to the beach. As for TN, some people may like rural areas, but they are not for me. I was told by another current student that only 8% of Harrogate residents have a Bachelor's degree or higher. And only 60% graduate from high school. Like the student who told me this I am not judging; I am just pointing out the environment in which LMU is located.

Like you I did like the "family" feel of LMU, but it was not enough to overcome the other aspects of the school. I withdrew my application from LMU after interviewing. For every post I make about LMU there are going to be 5 glowing reviews of LMU, but again I believe in order to make the most informed decision, all aspects of a school have to be considered. I am doing the same thing as you - deciding between two schools.

Whichever you choose, good luck to you. I am very clearly biased against LMU, but I am sure there are going to be great docs coming out of that school.

It is true that the first year clinical skills couse pushes you to know more than is really reasonable at that point and I did, at times, find that frustrating. You are learning all the details of the physical exam before having nay of the major systems information. However, you have anatomy simultaneously and it's taught as much in sync as possible. No one can deny that the first year of medical school is a TREMENDOUS learning curve, so I guess I feel like no matter how you do the curriculum, there will be those sorts of frustration. And if that's the only curriculum issue in the first few years, I'd say we're doing ok.

The national average for first time pass rate is around 90% right? Was the number you were quoted for all the classes so far or the first year? Just curious. Those numbers are so impossible to come across that I'd be curious who would be spouting them off at interviews, especially if this is something that isn't considered good. If it were for the very first class, I honestly wouldn't be that surprised with it being a brand new program. I have my own opinions on that that some people aren't that fond of though, so we'll leave it at that. They've worked a lot of kinks out in the curriculum already and I anticipate my class average of passing will be greater than that.

The idea of the education not being good is just...ridiculous. I suggest not drawing such extreme conclusions until you actually attend school and even then, unless you attend multiple programs or have experience with many, it's not really realistic to make such statements and have them be justified. A couple of disgruntled students and/or numbers that may or may not be accurate or respresentative of recent classes is just not enough.

As for the comments about the population of people living in the area....while it may not be your cup of tea, some people have a passion for providing healthcare for a population like that. It provides a unique opportunity for health care that you don't see in a lot of other places.

But you're right....every student must choose for themselves. I still stand by going with your gut....it seems to work for most people that I've talked to in these situations time and time again.

 

[Total180]

It is true that the first year clinical skills couse pushes you to know more than is really reasonable at that point and I did, at times, find that frustrating. You are learning all the details of the physical exam before having nay of the major systems information. However, you have anatomy simultaneously and it's taught as much in sync as possible. No one can deny that the first year of medical school is a TREMENDOUS learning curve, so I guess I feel like no matter how you do the curriculum, there will be those sorts of frustration. And if that's the only curriculum issue in the first few years, I'd say we're doing ok.

The national average for first time pass rate is around 90% right? Was the number you were quoted for all the classes so far or the first year? Just curious. Those numbers are so impossible to come across that I'd be curious who would be spouting them off at interviews, especially if this is something that isn't considered good. If it were for the very first class, I honestly wouldn't be that surprised with it being a brand new program. I have my own opinions on that that some people aren't that fond of though, so we'll leave it at that. They've worked a lot of kinks out in the curriculum already and I anticipate my class average of passing will be greater than that.

The idea of the education not being good is just...ridiculous. I suggest not drawing such extreme conclusions until you actually attend school and even then, unless you attend multiple programs or have experience with many, it's not really realistic to make such statements and have them be justified. A couple of disgruntled students and/or numbers that may or may not be accurate or respresentative of recent classes is just not enough.

As for the comments about the population of people living in the area....while it may not be your cup of tea, some people have a passion for providing healthcare for a population like that. It provides a unique opportunity for health care that you don't see in a lot of other places.

But you're right....every student must choose for themselves. I still stand by going with your gut....it seems to work for most people that I've talked to in these situations time and time again.

I was so hoping you would come back and make things right. I wish there was a "like" button for SDN.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

I was so hoping you would come back and make things right. I wish there was a "like" button for SDN.

I'm a lover not a fighter, so I hate responding to negative posts. It was rounded out fine (acknowledging that quality docs can still come out of the school), but still....this whole constant comparison of quality drives me nuts. I guess I just feel like we're all in this together at this point....we're all going to be physicians. Rather than split hairs over minute details in quality differences, I just wish we could just all go where we're happy, get our educations, each with some flaw or another and move on. I know people are so worried about finding the perfect school, but it's just not out there. Even an established, respected program has flaws....ultimately it's not really going to matter.

The post I responded to really wasn't that extreme....I need to point that out. I chose to come to a new school and I should expect such statements to be made. And I know certains ones are probably true. However, it should be fun to see how things pan out....I am fairly confident that DCOM will be one of the most desired schools for osteopathic education in the next years 🙂

 

[physcigirl27]

I'm a lover not a fighter, so I hate responding to negative posts. It was rounded out fine (acknowledging that quality docs can still come out of the school), but still....this whole constant comparison of quality drives me nuts. I guess I just feel like we're all in this together at this point....we're all going to be physicians. Rather than split hairs over minute details in quality differences, I just wish we could just all go where we're happy, get our educations, each with some flaw or another and move on. I know people are so worried about finding the perfect school, but it's just not out there. Even an established, respected program has flaws....ultimately it's not really going to matter.

The post I responded to really wasn't that extreme....I need to point that out. I chose to come to a new school and I should expect such statements to be made. And I know certains ones are probably true. However, it should be fun to see how things pan out....I am fairly confident that DCOM will be one of the most desired schools for osteopathic education in the next years 🙂

not aimed at the op and the person who responded to them but I agree. It's so crazy because when I talk with these physicians that I've been working with for a few years now, they ask about where I'm at in the app process and whatnot. Never once has anyone made any negative comments about DO (OR caribbean for that matter)...every physician I work with has examples of classmates that went DO/Carribean in various specialties. Heck, one of the board of directors at one of the hospitals is from Ross. It's always interesting (and frightening/disconcerting) to come on SDN and read threads where people keep saying that going to a DO school or a certain school will make you unsuccessful in life. The mindset of all the physicians (save ONE resident at an "elite" teaching school I was at--mind you, this person was a tool anyways) has the mindset "go where you'll be happy for the next 4 years--if you have the chance to choose schools, that is"

 

[DocEspana]

Just my $0.02.

go to Nova and never ever ever ever look back. There is a very legitimate argument that nova is a top 5 (I'd put them even higher) DO school. LMU is doing a lot of stuff right, but no matter how much stuff you do right, you cant really crack the top half of the rankings for years and years because of how much reputation and pre-existing residents in programs really does matter.

Add into all of this that the tuition argument is silly. Unless you are deathly afraid of any debt at all, you intend to do charity work for years and years, or you fear you might drop out half way through.... there is no reason to let 45K scare you. Thats nothing. In the end +$200,000 is the norm. Some go way over it, some go a bit under it. But once you hit that level of debt it becomes something you pay off "in 10 years" and doesnt change your lifestyle at all as youre left with about the same amount of earnings (and that a lot of earnings after debt repayment) with 7 years of primary care payments towards your debt or 5-4 years of surgery payments towards your debt (thats with interest-only payments for 3 years of primarycare and 5-6 years of interest-only for surgery)

If you're gonna be done with your debt by 2026 regardless of how much you accrue, 30ishK vs 45K may seem like 50% more, but it wont actually feel like it when youre able to pay it back on physician salary.

 

[willen101383]

I interviewed at both and actually should have been 2013 at LMU if my damn retina didnt detach and force me to defer! But I would 100% go to NSU. The school really blew me away. The campus is sick, that recc center was sick, the library was sick. The weather is beautiful obviously. The school has been around for a long time and is well known.

LMU had a nice brand new building devoted to the med school. The labs and lecture halls etc were really nice (obviously being brand new). Being a outdoorsy guy LMU's view and setting was beautiful. However, you are fairly far from any large population centers which could be either great or bad. I went to undergrad in the middle of nowhere and a similar distance from any "realness"....and had a great time and hunted and fished all the time. The school is also brand new, doesnt have a large alumni base, isnt well known yet. Being in such a rural area the rotation sites are likely going to be iffy...although im sure some are great sites. I am in a city of like 1.6 million and I still have a few rotations at small hole in the wall hospitals in the middle of nowhere. Although LMU seemed like a great school, LMU completely blew my mind in comparison.

 

[se20001984]

Both schools are good...

i recommend what ever your heard tells you

 

[ParacrineAgent]

I find it funny that mere months ago we were all saying, "I just hope I get in somewhere!" Then we get a couple of acceptances and suddenly we are medical school snobs saying, "Well, the sun does rise 2.5 degrees higher into the sky if you are in Florida. But Tennessee has more trees. What ever shall I do?!"

Honestly, pick a school that is right for YOU (not one that you think will impress your peers the most) and be happy that you get to be a doctor in 4 years. That's all that really needs to be said.

 

[ForeverDoc]

Thank you everyone for giving me lots to think about! I appreciate how supportive this environment is, especially given this is such a hard decision for me.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Here is my opinion which is limited to my knowledge:

Both schools will give you a very similar education...very similar knowledge...very similar professors...very similar board prep....

Their OPTI's are what will differ IMMENSELY
Therefore the opportunities available to you at each school differ.

NSU OPTI is very very well-developed...
It houses the following programs

Dermatology (3 separate programs)
Internal Medicine (6 separate programs; it also houses some Endocrinology/Cardiology/GI/Interventional Cardio/Geriatrics fellowships)
Orthopedic Surgery (2 separate programs)
Pediatrics (3 separate programs)
General Surgery
Anesthesiology (2 separate programs)
Psychiatry (2 separate programs)
Emergency Medicine (2 separate programs)
Opthalmology
Neurology
Diagnostic Radiology
Family Practice (I know no one cares how many....but there are 7 programs...lol)


LMU-DCOM OPTI is a neonate and it will take them a decade or two to develop

It houses

Family Practice (1 or 2 programs)
Orthopedic Surgery


Thus....I would choose NSU-COM

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Also, I remember that NSU is planning on starting even more residencies since their affiliated hospitals just got the money for expanding GME.

"U.S. Senator Bill Nelson (D-FL) successfully passed legislation to provide Florida with an additional 325 medical residency spots to be distributed at hospitals throughout the state. Thanks to Nelson, Florida received more residency positions than any other state.
Four of the 16 hospitals in Florida received more residency spots are Broward General Medical Center in Ft. Lauderdale, Palmetto General Hospital in Hialeah, Miami Children’s Hospital in Miami, and Mt. Sinai Medical Hospital. Those are some of the hospitals where COM has affiliated medical residency programs.
Palmetto General received an additional 57 funded residency positions, and Broward General received 46 more spots, Miami Children’s received 14 spots, and Mt. Sinai Medical Center received one spot."

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Source:
http://nsunews.nova.edu/nova-southe...approval-medical-residency-training-programs/

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

btw the "go where you'll be happy for the next 4 years" is so silly....and so short-sighted that it always makes me smile...
Perhaps they should say, "go where you'll be happy for the next 4 years REALIZING that your choice has a significant role to play in what you will be doing for the remainder of your career after those 4 years"

 

[fiznat]

...LMU is doing a lot of stuff right, but no matter how much stuff you do right, you cant really crack the top half of the rankings for years and years because of how much reputation and pre-existing residents in programs really does matter.

...the tuition argument is silly... there is no reason to let 45K scare you. Thats nothing. In the end +$200,000 is the norm. Some go way over it, some go a bit under it. But once you hit that level of debt it becomes something you pay off "in 10 years" and doesnt change your lifestyle at all as youre left with about the same amount of earnings (and that a lot of earnings after debt repayment) with 7 years of primary care payments towards your debt or 5-4 years of surgery payments towards your debt (thats with interest-only payments for 3 years of primarycare and 5-6 years of interest-only for surgery)

If you're gonna be done with your debt by 2026 regardless of how much you accrue, 30ishK vs 45K may seem like 50% more, but it wont actually feel like it when youre able to pay it back on physician salary.

Hey DE,

I usually agree with the things you say here on SDN, but this time not so much.

Fist, where are these osteopathic school rankings you are talking about? I realize there is something to be said for the age and general reputation of a school, but this isn't the allopathic world. There is no US News report, no official ranking whatsoever. Given that, I'm not sure how you (or anyone) can make any judgement at all about where LMU stands, or will stand, in these imaginary rankings over undetermined periods of time. True, LMU is a new school and probably has some years to go before it builds a reputation-- but I'm not so sure about drawing any hard lines as far as school rank goes in the osteopathic world. The keys to residency still are (and likely always will be) board scores and LORs.

Second, I think it is silly to say that money isn't a factor. A 25% difference in cost - $45,000 - is nothing to sneeze at no matter how you slice it. Sure, there are federal programs in place that limit payments and offer varying degrees of loan forgiveness for certain fields, but is that something you would really suggest people rely on? In this political and economic climate? I think cost is absolutely something any applicant should consider. Money is money, and there are no guarantees.

As far as what other posters have said about OPTI networks/clerkship opportunities, I can't argue. I'm just a first year so I have no direct experience, but I think it is probably true that LMU has some ground to make up before it matches the establishment in rotation opportunities. I don't doubt that you can get some good training here, but I do think it is something applicants should be thinking about. That said-- LMU seems to be working diligently to build new relationships every year, so who knows what it will be like when current applicants reach that phase.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Here is my opinion which is limited to my knowledge:

Both schools will give you a very similar education...very similar knowledge...very similar professors...very similar board prep....

Their OPTI's are what will differ IMMENSELY
Therefore the opportunities available to you at each school differ.

NSU OPTI is very very well-developed...
It houses the following programs

Dermatology (3 separate programs)
Internal Medicine (6 separate programs; it also houses some Endocrinology/Cardiology/GI/Interventional Cardio/Geriatrics fellowships)
Orthopedic Surgery (2 separate programs)
Pediatrics (3 separate programs)
General Surgery
Anesthesiology (2 separate programs)
Psychiatry (2 separate programs)
Emergency Medicine (2 separate programs)
Opthalmology
Neurology
Diagnostic Radiology
Family Practice (I know no one cares how many....but there are 7 programs...lol)


LMU-DCOM OPTI is a neonate and it will take them a decade or two to develop

It houses

Family Practice (1 or 2 programs)
Orthopedic Surgery


Thus....I would choose NSU-COM

Ok, I get this, but I don't. That may just be me being still a greenie in all this residency stuff though. Why does your school having lots of affiliated residency programs mean it's a better pick? I'm not trying to be obnoxioius I swear....I am just unaware of the real benefits.

Also, for the 757th time, we hired a GME director. Wink wink, hint hint, nudge nudge....by 2016, the OP's planned graduation year, I anticipate things for that list will be VERY different for us. They spouted off numbers to us at our last Dean's hour, but until things really start moving, I'd hesitate to spread that information. I'm not saying this changes things for someone who is so very focused on having an already established program....it's simply to point out that we're already on the ball in that area. It's not like the OP would need all these residency programs established by their graduation year necessarily right? The idea is not there are residencies with your schools name on them to apply to right? Again, I'm just confused I guess so any clarification would be greatly appreciated 🙂

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Ok, I get this, but I don't. That may just be me being still a greenie in all this residency stuff though. Why does your school having lots of affiliated residency programs mean it's a better pick? I'm not trying to be obnoxioius I swear....I am just unaware of the real benefits.

Also, for the 757th time, we hired a GME director. Wink wink, hint hint, nudge nudge....by 2016, the OP's planned graduation year, I anticipate things for that list will be VERY different for us. They spouted off numbers to us at our last Dean's hour, but until things really start moving, I'd hesitate to spread that information. I'm not saying this changes things for someone who is so very focused on having an already established program....it's simply to point out that we're already on the ball in that area. It's not like the OP would need all these residency programs established by their graduation year necessarily right? The idea is not there are residencies with your schools name on them to apply to right? Again, I'm just confused I guess so any clarification would be greatly appreciated 🙂

and I am confused on why you think every post that supports NSU is a personal attack on LMU. Seriously, whenever someone posts about NSU, you make it a personal goal to rebut their post. We all understand that you are excited about LMU, and you have that right. We are all excited for you. But this thread is for people giving their personal opinions, not, "Let's attack LMU." You have done a great job showing your support for LMU. You have done a great job showing how happy you are you chose LMU. That is way awesome. I would choose NSU as I stated above, but that doesn't mean I hope LMU fails.

And any school, whether admittedly or subconsciously, will show preference to their own graduates. So NSU having all of those is a gigantic benefit.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Here is my opinion which is limited to my knowledge:

Both schools will give you a very similar education...very similar knowledge...very similar professors...very similar board prep....

Their OPTI's are what will differ IMMENSELY
Therefore the opportunities available to you at each school differ.

NSU OPTI is very very well-developed...
It houses the following programs

Dermatology (3 separate programs)
Internal Medicine (6 separate programs; it also houses some Endocrinology/Cardiology/GI/Interventional Cardio/Geriatrics fellowships)
Orthopedic Surgery (2 separate programs)
Pediatrics (3 separate programs)
General Surgery
Anesthesiology (2 separate programs)
Psychiatry (2 separate programs)
Emergency Medicine (2 separate programs)
Opthalmology
Neurology
Diagnostic Radiology
Family Practice (I know no one cares how many....but there are 7 programs...lol)


LMU-DCOM OPTI is a neonate and it will take them a decade or two to develop

It houses

Family Practice (1 or 2 programs)
Orthopedic Surgery


Thus....I would choose NSU-COM

Damn. That makes me wish I went to NSU. not really, but that is a lot of programs. That is awesome.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Ok, I get this, but I don't. That may just be me being still a greenie in all this residency stuff though. Why does your school having lots of affiliated residency programs mean it's a better pick? I'm not trying to be obnoxioius I swear....I am just unaware of the real benefits.

Also, for the 757th time, we hired a GME director. Wink wink, hint hint, nudge nudge....by 2016, the OP's planned graduation year, I anticipate things for that list will be VERY different for us. They spouted off numbers to us at our last Dean's hour, but until things really start moving, I'd hesitate to spread that information. I'm not saying this changes things for someone who is so very focused on having an already established program....it's simply to point out that we're already on the ball in that area. It's not like the OP would need all these residency programs established by their graduation year necessarily right? The idea is not there are residencies with your schools name on them to apply to right? Again, I'm just confused I guess so any clarification would be greatly appreciated 🙂

All OPTI's show a clear preference for their own graduates.
NYCOMEC (NYCOM OPTI) is the only one (to the best of my knowledge) that boldly and openly stated it that they give preference to NYCOM graduates.

"Also, for the 757th time, we hired a GME director"

I will believe it when I "see it"
RVU had claimed in a press release (which has disappeared from the internet now--hint hint...wink wink) shortly after recruiting its first class that they will have 15-20 residency programs up and running by 2012 (graduation time for their inaugural class), and will have the ability to accomodate many many of thier graduates....up to a 100.....probably even more....

Guess how many programs they got up and running as of now (2012; time for inaugural class's graduation)?

3

2 Family Practice....1 Internal Medicine....wow...hint hint...wink wink... 🙂

 

[GraceEuphoria]

All OPTI's show a clear preference for their own graduates.
NYCOMEC (NYCOM OPTI) is the only one (to the best of my knowledge) that boldly and openly stated it that they give preference to NYCOM graduates.

"Also, for the 757th time, we hired a GME director"

I will believe it when I "see it"
RVU had claimed in a press release (which has disappeared from the internet now--hint hint...wink wink) shortly after recruiting its first class that they will have 15-20 residency programs up and running by 2012 (graduation time for their inaugural class), and will have the ability to accomodate many many of thier graduates....up to a 100.....probably even more....

Guess how many programs they got up and running as of now (2012; time for inaugural class's graduation)?

3

2 IM....1 FP....wow...hint hint...wink wink... 🙂

Gotcha...I guess the whole some programs having a preference for me doesn't really have a lot of appeal to me personally, but I can see why it's a pro for some.

It's fine to have doubts that the GME director thing won't pan out to much....it's reasonable. They're talking BIG....that's all I'm saying. So even if they fall short, it will be decent I think.

But when it's all said and done, unless someone offers more details I'm missing, a large OPTI really isn't a plus to me. So I suppose it's all up to the applicant what their preferences are in a school.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

I guess in looking at the list, it makes sense if you're looking for something competitive and near impossible to match into allopathic wise as a DO (aka ophtho for ex)....since I'm not planning to go that route, it doesn't stand out to me. But I see that pro for those that are.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Gotcha...I guess the whole some programs having a preference for me doesn't really have a lot of appeal to me personally, but I can see why it's a pro for some.

It's fine to have doubts that the GME director thing won't pan out to much....it's reasonable. They're talking BIG....that's all I'm saying. So even if they fall short, it will be decent I think.

But when it's all said and done, unless someone offers more details I'm missing, a large OPTI really isn't a plus to me. So I suppose it's all up to the applicant what their preferences are in a school.

I've been following OGME growth news for years now....as frantically as the baseball loving New Yorker follows Yankee games...and trust me...there is too much "big talk".......lots of OPTI's "talk big"....that's it...that's all they do...at the end of the day...it's all talk and no show.......and yes, if you want Family Practice, Pediatrics or even Internal Med.....go anywhere (in the US..allopathic or osteopathic) for medical school.....don't even bother reading anything about GME or OGME...you will get a slot... 🙂

 

[MossPoh]

I interviewed at both back in the day. Out of full disclosure, I paid the deposit at Nova, but did not go there for school. Also, excuse autocorrect typos since I'm on my phone.

I liked LMU. The people were nice. The building and facilities were nice. It was a very friendly and inviting atmosphere. What makes it that way is that the students that went there were committed and bought into the school. I reflected on it and just didn't feel much energy or excitement from the area. I wouldn't dare say the rotations are weak, but I did feel there was a bigger question mark and more chance for variation. Take the board pass rate with a grain of salt. There is no context to the scores. With small classes, 2 or 3 people having bad days can skew the average even if they were only a couple questions from passing.

I chose Nova because, at the time, it was cheaper for me (still expensive, especially with housing costs). I also liked potential research opportunities, interactions with other health professions, more residency programs in the state and immediate area to network with, more established (not necessarily better) rotation sites, alumni network, chance to pursue a masters in a field of personal interest, great gym (yes, that was a serious factor for me), variation in study locales and libraries and just feeling like it was an established product.

I viewed it as a purchase. One can go with something that can turn out filling every dream and be cheaper while doing it, but it could also turn out as a dud for me. I preferred to play it safe and get the dependable and reliable product where I may not get all the customization, but I knew it would afford me the chance of getting me where I wanted to go.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

If it's of any difference to you...NSU has 1 Family Med program that is partnered with Duke University...Yes...DUKE!! 🙂

 

[corpsman33]

and I am confused on why you think every post that supports NSU is a personal attack on LMU. Seriously, whenever someone posts about NSU, you make it a personal goal to rebut their post. We all understand that you are excited about LMU, and you have that right. We are all excited for you. But this thread is for people giving their personal opinions, not, "Let's attack LMU." You have done a great job showing your support for LMU. You have done a great job showing how happy you are you chose LMU. That is way awesome. I would choose NSU as I stated above, but that doesn't mean I hope LMU fails.

And any school, whether admittedly or subconsciously, will show preference to their own graduates. So NSU having all of those is a gigantic benefit.

OHHHH CMON FrkyBgStok......typically I support your posts and I think you have pretty good common sense. But what about if someone had posted something biased against DMU....I think we all could have guessed the outcome of that situation. I have never seen someone jump in so quickly to show their devotion, and to defend a school, as much as you have for DMU.

We all support our respective schools because we have pride in where we will attend. That being said I think GraceEuphoria does a terrific job of presenting both sides to every situation. While she obviously supports LMU, she presents very truthful posts with absolutely no malicious intent. It is obvious from every one of her posts that she simply wants students to make well informed decisions. Her posts do nothing more than inform the OP of the options available to him/her.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

OHHHH CMON FrkyBgStok......typically I support your posts and I think you have pretty good common sense. But what about if someone had posted something biased against DMU....I think we all could have guessed the outcome of that situation. I have never seen someone jump in so quickly to show their devotion, and to defend a school, as much as you have for DMU.

We all support our respective schools because we have pride in where we will attend. That being said I think GraceEuphoria does a terrific job of presenting both sides to every situation. While she obviously supports LMU, she presents very truthful posts with absolutely no malicious intent. It is obvious from every one of her posts that she simply wants students to make well informed decisions. Her posts do nothing more than inform the OP of the options available to him/her.

This is exactly what is going on in the following link:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12097058#post12097058

 

[Iliketoytles]

This is exactly what is going on in the following link:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12097058#post12097058

Way to make things... "personal". 🙄

 

[corpsman33]

This is exactly what is going on in the following link:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12097058#post12097058

I love the motivation/devotion FrkyBgStok has for DMU.. Its contagious and makes me excited to begin med school...but I just wanted to point out that he was being a little hypocritical in his last post. 🙂

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Way to make things... "personal". 🙄

lol...consider me even with this dude...he started it...I ended it...now if he makes it personal again...I too will make it personal once again 🙂

lol

 

[corpsman33]

This is exactly what is going on in the following link:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12097058#post12097058

And also....LOL for helping me make my point.

 

[Iliketoytles]

lol...consider me even with this dude...he started it...I ended it...now if he makes it personal again...I too will make it personal once again 🙂

lol

Not trying to defend him... but it didn't seem anything was "personal" until you posted the link to that thread here. 😉

ANYWAYY.... moving on. 😎

 

[corpsman33]

Not trying to defend him... but it didn't seem anything was "personal" until you posted the link to that thread here. 😉

ANYWAYY.... moving on. 😎

Toytles.. He was just re-iterating my past post. Nothing personal.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

but that dude said "your argument to choose based on OPTI alone is stupid" in the other thread

calling someone's argument "stupid" makes things personal....right?

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Lol. I do support DMU, but if someone says "I wouldn't choose DMU because of their location (for example)" I am not going to jump all over and say "BS, Des Moines is amazing." If someone says their clinical rotations aren't the best, I wouldn't jump all over and say, "DMU said they were going to get better so stfu." I am not saying DMU is perfect for everyone nor am I saying LMU is bad, but I am not going to defend why DMU is better when someone prefers another.

And the other thread wasn't a defense of DMU at all or making anything personal. I was using an example that I am familiar with. I could have said KCUMB, KCOM, or any other school, but DMU works for me. That has nothing to do with defense. And I don't think I was being hypocritical. It is one thing to be excited for a school which I clearly am for DMU. DMU has less OPTIs than MSU. Being hypocritical would be saying, "screw off, DMU is a better school will prepare everyone better." But instead I say, "bummer. looks like DMU students have to be better to get positions at those residencies."

This is getting out of hand. Everyone needs to calm down, take a breathe, admit FrkyBgStok is always right cause he is ridiculously awesome, and move on.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

but that dude said "your argument to choose based on OPTI alone is stupid" in the other thread

calling someone's argument "stupid" makes things personal....right?

sorry i called your argument stupid. I should have said, "i think your argument is stupid." not personal. sorry.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

sorry i called your argument stupid. I should have said, "i think your argument is stupid." not personal. sorry.

Apology accepted. But we are even.

You called my argument stupid....I ratted your DMU defense out.

So, I am sorry for ratting you out.

 

[Iliketoytles]

We have bigger problems to worry about:

 

[corpsman33]

Lol. I do support DMU, but if someone says "I wouldn't choose DMU because of their location (for example)" I am not going to jump all over and say "BS, Des Moines is amazing." If someone says their clinical rotations aren't the best, I wouldn't jump all over and say, "DMU said they were going to get better so stfu." I am not saying DMU is perfect for everyone nor am I saying LMU is bad, but I am not going to defend why DMU is better when someone prefers another.

And the other thread wasn't a defense of DMU at all or making anything personal. I was using an example that I am familiar with. I could have said KCUMB, KCOM, or any other school, but DMU works for me. That has nothing to do with defense. And I don't think I was being hypocritical. It is one thing to be excited for a school which I clearly am for DMU. DMU has less OPTIs than MSU. Being hypocritical would be saying, "screw off, DMU is a better school will prepare everyone better." But instead I say, "bummer. looks like DMU students have to be better to get positions at those residencies."

This is getting out of hand. Everyone needs to calm down, take a breathe, admit FrkyBgStok is always right cause he is ridiculously awesome, and move on.

LOL....you made up for it all in this last statement!

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Apology accepted. But we are even.

You called my argument stupid....I ratted your DMU defense out.

So, I am sorry for ratting you out.

i forgive you. 😍

 

[DocEspana]

Hey DE,

I usually agree with the things you say here on SDN, but this time not so much.

Fist, where are these osteopathic school rankings you are talking about? I realize there is something to be said for the age and general reputation of a school, but this isn't the allopathic world. There is no US News report, no official ranking whatsoever. Given that, I'm not sure how you (or anyone) can make any judgement at all about where LMU stands, or will stand, in these imaginary rankings over undetermined periods of time. True, LMU is a new school and probably has some years to go before it builds a reputation-- but I'm not so sure about drawing any hard lines as far as school rank goes in the osteopathic world. The keys to residency still are (and likely always will be) board scores and LORs.

Correct. There is no US World New and Report List. For that very reason, your reputation and how many residents you have placed in notable hospitals and desired rotations is EXACTLY what makes your worth. Literally, the worth of a DO school (unless its f***ing something else up somewhere) should be measured solely in extant resident classes (So the last 3-7 years) and the ability to have those extant classes aid the current ones. Saying board scores and LORs are everything to residency is like saying oxygenation and glycolysis is everything to life. It is what is required at the bare minimum to stay alive. It is not going to give you any sort of life worth living, more than 50% of the time, in a vacuum.

Second, I think it is silly to say that money isn't a factor. A 25% difference in cost - $45,000 - is nothing to sneeze at no matter how you slice it. Sure, there are federal programs in place that limit payments and offer varying degrees of loan forgiveness for certain fields, but is that something you would really suggest people rely on? In this political and economic climate? I think cost is absolutely something any applicant should consider. Money is money, and there are no guarantees.

There are enough people who agree with me, and plenty who strongly disagree. If you sit down and do the math on this, 200,000 is as easy to pay off as 300,000 as is 100,000. Yes... it sounds absurd. It really really does. But sit down and do the math on a 10-12 year repayment. If youre in IM you're covering your interest for 3 years and then taking a cut out of ~140,000 per year for 7 years. That would *leave* you with <$110,000 a year to do whatever you wanted with. Thats a ****-ton of money. Surgeons take 5 years, but they have $200,000 average. That's $160,000 to play with if they want to pay it all back by the 10th year out of school. 50% higher or lower is nothing, in the scheme of how much you actually clear and in the time frame people realistically pay back loans.

You're right that an increase of x thousand is an increase of x thousand. No one can deny that. But the ridiculous debt we get into only seems absurd until the day residency end, then suddenly is remarkably manageable given no one expects you to pay it back earlier than the 10th year, and if thats your time frame, its only a fraction of your income a year. I've campaigned (as a loyal student representative zealot) for debt relief for over a year before I actually approached some physicians about it and they explained to me why they thought the debt relief argument was stupid. And they're right.

As far as what other posters have said about OPTI networks/clerkship opportunities, I can't argue. I'm just a first year so I have no direct experience, but I think it is probably true that LMU has some ground to make up before it matches the establishment in rotation opportunities. I don't doubt that you can get some good training here, but I do think it is something applicants should be thinking about. That said-- LMU seems to be working diligently to build new relationships every year, so who knows what it will be like when current applicants reach that phase.

LMU is doing great. But I stick by my original point. Connections and extant residents in high places is everything. The way I look at schools is by resident placement. It basically becomes PCOM, NSU, MSUCOM and (maybe) Western in a world all by themselves, as they place students far beyond the trends seen at any other DO school. "Established" "state" "location" all fail to explain the matches these places get while other established/state/located schools do well, but not the same. Its simply a matter that they all had some exemplary classes in a row and once you do that, you start a trend that continues to place students far beyond expectations. OPTIs can play into it. Having multiple orthos and derms under your purview is awfully nice (says the guy who has a derm under his school's OPTI that has matched 50% of its derm spots last year and 100% this year to my school. I realize the sway being "your" opti can have).

LMU is doing well, but it takes time to get that head of steam going. Have no worries. I'm from a new school too. I'm never gonna bash them, because some new schools are really getting stuff done. I just need to be honest that Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was a DO school reputable in 5-6 years. Its just not realistic.