NSU-COM versus LMU-DCOM

[fiznat]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Correct. There is no US World New and Report List. For that very reason, your reputation and how many residents you have placed in notable hospitals and desired rotations is EXACTLY what makes your worth. Literally, the worth of a DO school (unless its f***ing something else up somewhere) should be measured solely in extant resident classes (So the last 3-7 years) and the ability to have those extant classes aid the current ones. Saying board scores and LORs are everything to residency is like saying oxygenation and glycolysis is everything to life. It is what is required at the bare minimum to stay alive. It is not going to give you any sort of life worth living, more than 50% of the time, in a vacuum.

This is an interesting perspective. What does that say for medical students who are interested in specializing, or (even worse!) looking at pursuing an ACGME residency? If I am quoting the figures right, osteopathic schools place something like 50-60% of their graduates into primary care DO residencies (my school pulled 75% last year). To me, that means anyone who is interested in straying from that track is looking at a very difficult situation where they have very few friends. I am one of those students, so maybe it is little more than self delusion but I like to think that my board scores and performance during rotations will weigh heavily when (if) these residencies start looking at my application. I have no expectation that there will even be a DO, never mind a DCOM alum in a position to advocate for me at these programs. Is that because I go to LMU-DCOM, or because I go to an osteopathic school? I'm not sure that the difference is all that easy to detect, especially as a (future) DO grad looking at ACGME specialties. The value of these OPTIs and alumni networks is pretty variable, and I think any prospective DO should be aware that GME is potentially going to be difficult no matter where you go. To me, that muddies the water a little bit when you start comparing schools side by side as we have done in this thread.

If you sit down and do the math on this, 200,000 is as easy to pay off as 300,000 as is 100,000. Yes... it sounds absurd. It really really does. But sit down and do the math on a 10-12 year repayment. If youre in IM you're covering your interest for 3 years and then taking a cut out of ~140,000 per year for 7 years. That would *leave* you with <$110,000 a year to do whatever you wanted with. Thats a ****-ton of money. Surgeons take 5 years, but they have $200,000 average. That's $160,000 to play with if they want to pay it all back by the 10th year out of school. 50% higher or lower is nothing, in the scheme of how much you actually clear and in the time frame people realistically pay back loans.

I donno man. That kind of logic sounds like the same approach car salesmen use to convince prospective buyers that they can afford to spend more because they can knock down the monthly payment a little. Today's applicants are at least 7 years away from making any sort of income, likely longer. We don't know what kinds of changes will happen between now and then. Over that kind of term, the only advice I can think of that will be definitely still be true is to spend as little as possible. I'm not saying that you're definitely wrong-- in fact in all likelihood it will work out just as you say-- but as far as giving general advice, I think applicants absolutely should include tuition as a factor in choosing a school.

LMU is doing well, but it takes time to get that head of steam going. Have no worries. I'm from a new school too. I'm never gonna bash them, because some new schools are really getting stuff done. I just need to be honest that Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was a DO school reputable in 5-6 years. Its just not realistic.

Its cool man, I don't need a pep talk haha. I don't think I misunderstand at all the realities and challenges I will face at a new school. The best advice I got all year is to treat everything like it counts, to work as hard as possible and do as well as I can. I think that advice is true at any school- DO or MD. I have no expectation that DCOM will hand me a residency on a silver platter, but I do believe that if I do well here I can have a decent shot at what I want. That's all any student can really ask for.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

This is an interesting perspective. What does that say for medical students who are interested in specializing, or (even worse!) looking at pursuing an ACGME residency? If I am quoting the figures right, osteopathic schools place something like 50-60% of their graduates into primary care DO residencies (my school pulled 75% last year). To me, that means anyone who is interested in straying from that track is looking at a very difficult situation where they have very few friends. I am one of those students, so maybe it is little more than self delusion but I like to think that my board scores and performance during rotations will weigh heavily when (if) these residencies start looking at my application. I have no expectation that there will even be a DO, never mind a DCOM alum in a position to advocate for me at these programs. Is that because I go to LMU-DCOM, or because I go to an osteopathic school? I'm not sure that the difference is all that easy to detect, especially as a (future) DO grad looking at ACGME specialties. The value of these OPTIs and alumni networks is pretty variable, and I think any prospective DO should be aware that GME is potentially going to be difficult no matter where you go. To me, that muddies the water a little bit when you start comparing schools side by side as we have done in this thread.

Thus, my opinion placed emphasis on a school's strong OPTI and (preferably) own hospital(s) or strong hospital affiliations.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

and I am confused on why you think every post that supports NSU is a personal attack on LMU. Seriously, whenever someone posts about NSU, you make it a personal goal to rebut their post. We all understand that you are excited about LMU, and you have that right. We are all excited for you. But this thread is for people giving their personal opinions, not, "Let's attack LMU." You have done a great job showing your support for LMU. You have done a great job showing how happy you are you chose LMU. That is way awesome. I would choose NSU as I stated above, but that doesn't mean I hope LMU fails.

And any school, whether admittedly or subconsciously, will show preference to their own graduates. So NSU having all of those is a gigantic benefit.

Well that's just clearly not a true statement because no one has any reason to be excited over my being excited about my school 😉

The reason I have posted the way I have is because any discussion concerning this school vs. that school will inevitably take on a tone of "this school is better than that school for X, Y and Z." I was simply trying to convey that the points in support of NSU for an applicant over LMU aren't necessarily relevant or accurate. I openly admit when there are flaws in this program....but if you're going to project that my education is inferior to that of the one at NSU because of some statistics, then yes, I will be defensive because it's not fair to give that image for a school that is doing an excellent job thus far. Referencing one student's comments and the level of intelligence of local residents....again, not necessarily representative of the program and not at all indicative of the quality. I think it's fair and welcome to present these sorts of things...people have a right to know what they're signing up for. However, it only seems fair for me to offer a counter view and I think for the most part I'm very respectful while doing so. I can't help it that I am happy where I am 🙂

OHHHH CMON FrkyBgStok......typically I support your posts and I think you have pretty good common sense. But what about if someone had posted something biased against DMU....I think we all could have guessed the outcome of that situation. I have never seen someone jump in so quickly to show their devotion, and to defend a school, as much as you have for DMU.

We all support our respective schools because we have pride in where we will attend. That being said I think GraceEuphoria does a terrific job of presenting both sides to every situation. While she obviously supports LMU, she presents very truthful posts with absolutely no malicious intent. It is obvious from every one of her posts that she simply wants students to make well informed decisions. Her posts do nothing more than inform the OP of the options available to him/her.

Thanks 🙂

Correct. There is no US World New and Report List. For that very reason, your reputation and how many residents you have placed in notable hospitals and desired rotations is EXACTLY what makes your worth. Literally, the worth of a DO school (unless its f***ing something else up somewhere) should be measured solely in extant resident classes (So the last 3-7 years) and the ability to have those extant classes aid the current ones. Saying board scores and LORs are everything to residency is like saying oxygenation and glycolysis is everything to life. It is what is required at the bare minimum to stay alive. It is not going to give you any sort of life worth living, more than 50% of the time, in a vacuum.


LMU is doing great. But I stick by my original point. Connections and extant residents in high places is everything. The way I look at schools is by resident placement. It basically becomes PCOM, NSU, MSUCOM and (maybe) Western in a world all by themselves, as they place students far beyond the trends seen at any other DO school. "Established" "state" "location" all fail to explain the matches these places get while other established/state/located schools do well, but not the same. Its simply a matter that they all had some exemplary classes in a row and once you do that, you start a trend that continues to place students far beyond expectations. OPTIs can play into it. Having multiple orthos and derms under your purview is awfully nice (says the guy who has a derm under his school's OPTI that has matched 50% of its derm spots last year and 100% this year to my school. I realize the sway being "your" opti can have).

LMU is doing well, but it takes time to get that head of steam going. Have no worries. I'm from a new school too. I'm never gonna bash them, because some new schools are really getting stuff done. I just need to be honest that Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was a DO school reputable in 5-6 years. Its just not realistic.

And the only reason I've been refuting this point in THIS case is because the OP mentioend being interested in primary care. I just don't see choosing a school based on connections when you really aren't going to be limited. Sure, you may change your mind when you're out on rotations and if you think you're the person that may sway, so be it. Go the safer route. It makes sense. But primary care offers a wide variety of residency options and you will not be limited by attending a school without a lengthy OPTI list.


As for the "all talk" reference about the potential GME opportunities....I guess we'll just have to wait and see 🙂

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Well that's just clearly not a true statement because no one has any reason to be excited over my being excited about my school 😉

The reason I have posted the way I have is because any discussion concerning this school vs. that school will inevitably take on a tone of "this school is better than that school for X, Y and Z." I was simply trying to convey that the points in support of NSU for an applicant over LMU aren't necessarily relevant or accurate. I openly admit when there are flaws in this program....but if you're going to project that my education is inferior to that of the one at NSU because of some statistics, then yes, I will be defensive because it's not fair to give that image for a school that is doing an excellent job thus far. Referencing one student's comments and the level of intelligence of local residents....again, not necessarily representative of the program and not at all indicative of the quality. I think it's fair and welcome to present these sorts of things...people have a right to know what they're signing up for. However, it only seems fair for me to offer a counter view and I think for the most part I'm very respectful while doing so. I can't help it that I am happy where I am 🙂

Thanks 🙂


And the only reason I've been refuting this point in THIS case is because the OP mentioend being interested in primary care. I just don't see choosing a school based on connections when you really aren't going to be limited. Sure, you may change your mind when you're out on rotations and if you think you're the person that may sway, so be it. Go the safer route. It makes sense. But primary care offers a wide variety of residency options and you will not be limited by attending a school without a lengthy OPTI list.


As for the "all talk" reference about the potential GME opportunities....I guess we'll just have to wait and see 🙂

So basically, in your own words, "interested in primary care-->you will not be limited by attending a school without a lengthy OPTI list."

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Well that's just clearly not a true statement because no one has any reason to be excited over my being excited about my school 😉

The reason I have posted the way I have is because any discussion concerning this school vs. that school will inevitably take on a tone of "this school is better than that school for X, Y and Z." I was simply trying to convey that the points in support of NSU for an applicant over LMU aren't necessarily relevant or accurate. I openly admit when there are flaws in this program....but if you're going to project that my education is inferior to that of the one at NSU because of some statistics, then yes, I will be defensive because it's not fair to give that image for a school that is doing an excellent job thus far. Referencing one student's comments and the level of intelligence of local residents....again, not necessarily representative of the program and not at all indicative of the quality. I think it's fair and welcome to present these sorts of things...people have a right to know what they're signing up for. However, it only seems fair for me to offer a counter view and I think for the most part I'm very respectful while doing so. I can't help it that I am happy where I am 🙂

Thanks 🙂

hmmm...I realy don't see how you went from

neonate OPTI at LMU --> inferior education at LMU


However, it would be logical to say that

neonate OPTI at LMU = less opportunities provided to LMU graduates BY LMU

Here is how I like to think,

Awesome professors/faculty at school = awesome education at school

Please don't mix quality of education at school with opportunities provided to graduates by school's OPT.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

So basically, in your own words, "interested in primary care-->you will not be limited by attending a school without a lengthy OPTI list."

hmmm...I realy don't see how you went from

neonate OPTI at LMU --> inferior education at LMU


However, it would be logical to say that

neonate OPTI at LMU = less opportunities provided to LMU graduates BY LMU

Here is how I like to think,

Awesome professors/faculty at school = awesome education at school

Please don't mix quality of education at school with opportunities provided to graduates by school's OPT.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't mix the 2 if it weren't coming up in other people's responses 🙂

I have been responding to multiple people's comments, often in the same stream of consciousness, which I'm sure has been confusing.

My response about the inferior education thing was directed at this previous post:
"I went on to find out that the first-time board pass rate last year at LMU was "83.6%" as quoted BY MY INTERVIEWER. I have interviewed at 7 DO schools and this was by far the lowest board pass rate I have heard of. While this is sometimes argued to be a reflection on the students, it is more likely resulting from the interaction of the students performance and the quality of the education provided at the school."

You're right, there was no connection between this response and the lack of LMU residency programs. If I made it sound like there was, that's my bad....but it was 2 different responses, or it was intended to be at least.

And as for this:
"However, it would be logical to say that

neonate OPTI at LMU = less opportunities provided to LMU graduates BY LMU"

Of course. That's simply a fact. But what's not a fact is that this circumstance somehow limits someone who wants to do primary care. Honestly. I use this forum to be as well rounded and informed as possible in my understanding of this whole process....if there's something I'm missing about this, please tell me. But until then, I just don't see how an impressive OPTI list, in both length and content, is a deciding factor for a person going into primary care. There are tons of opportunities in primary care, so why worry about applying to programs that preferentially accept students from your school when it's, generally speaking, non-competitive to enter primary care?

 

[fiznat]

There are tons of opportunities in primary care, so why worry about applying to programs that preferentially accept students from your school when it's, generally speaking, non-competitive to enter primary care?

Just playing devil's advocate, but primary care is only considered non-competitive because there are usually unfilled slots at the end of the match cycle. That doesn't mean that there isn't competition for the top programs. Sure, if you are non-discriminating and are happy just going "anywhere" for your training, I think you can rest assured that you have a good shot at matching someplace pretty much regardless. For those who have more specific preferences though, I could see how a well developed OPTI network could be pretty sweet. Especially if it included some top programs that may actually be locally competitive.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Just playing devil's advocate, but primary care is only considered non-competitive because there are usually unfilled slots at the end of the match cycle. That doesn't mean that there isn't competition for the top programs. Sure, if you are non-discriminating and are happy just going "anywhere" for your training, I think you can rest assured that you have a good shot at matching someplace pretty much regardless. For those who have more specific preferences though, I could see how a well developed OPTI network could be pretty sweet. Especially if it included some top programs that may actually be locally competitive.

Sure thing....if your specific preferences happen to fall in the location your OPTI offers, right? I think because I'm not decided on a field or location yet, I just don't see the appeal of having programs with LMU's name on them that will gladly take me. It's just all about personal needs and wants I guess. Also, I think my perspective is skewed currently by this potential ACGME change....I'm trying to plan and prepare for an allopathic residency until I know it's not going to go through for sure. I'm absolutely not limiting myself to nearly zero opportunities for fellowships, simply because I did an osteopathic residency. And as we all know, osteopathic fellowships are very very rare right now and severely limit your choices. I suppose that pretty much explains why I currently have little to no interest in OPTIs lol 🙂

 

[fiznat]

Sure thing....if your specific preferences happen to fall in the location your OPTI offers, right? I think because I'm not decided on a field or location yet, I just don't see the appeal of having programs with LMU's name on them that will gladly take me. It's just all about personal needs and wants I guess. Also, I think my perspective is skewed currently by this potential ACGME change....I'm trying to plan and prepare for an allopathic residency until I know it's not going to go through for sure. I'm absolutely not limiting myself to nearly zero opportunities for fellowships, simply because I did an osteopathic residency. And as we all know, osteopathic fellowships are very very rare right now and severely limit your choices. I suppose that pretty much explains why I currently have little to no interest in OPTIs lol 🙂

Yeah I feel the same way. I'm looking at ACGME residencies because there are zero osteopathic EM residencies in my home state. I also would like to keep the option open to do a fellowship if I become interested in it later on.

That said, these are decisions you make as you go through school. I'm not sure it's reasonable that an applicant should know so specifically what he/she wants to do and where. The argument could be made: why limit yourself? Why not just go to a school that has a huge OPTI list that might help you, and worse case scenario it is a non-factor? I can understand the reasoning. I think DCOM has lots to offer it's students, but this is certainly a weakness that is worth talking about.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Yeah I feel the same way. I'm looking at ACGME residencies because there are zero osteopathic EM residencies in my home state. I also would like to keep the option open to do a fellowship if I become interested in it later on.

That said, these are decisions you make as you go through school. I'm not sure it's reasonable that an applicant should know so specifically what he/she wants to do and where. The argument could be made: why limit yourself? Why not just go to a school that has a huge OPTI list that might help you, and worse case scenario it is a non-factor? I can understand the reasoning. I think DCOM has lots to offer it's students, but this is certainly a weakness that is worth talking about.

It definitely is....that's why I kept saying that IF we're talking about someone who wants to do primary care, THEN it's not really a relevant point. Although I'm still dying to hear why our other poster thinks otherwise lol. This is a learning process and I never claim to know it all...yet...hahaha 😀 But no seriously, it's of course wise to keep options open. I guess I am just one of those people that doesn't care that much....people think I'm silly but I've honestly just always been so thrilled to even have the opportunity to become a physician that I've said I'll just make the best of whatever comes my way. Call it settling, but for people like myself, the details aren't worth stressing over 🙂

 

[Iliketoytles]

It definitely is....that's why I kept saying that IF we're talking about someone who wants to do primary care, THEN it's not really a relevant point. Although I'm still dying to hear why our other poster thinks otherwise lol. This is a learning process and I never claim to know it all...yet...hahaha 😀 But no seriously, it's of course wise to keep options open. I guess I am just one of those people that doesn't care that much....people think I'm silly but I've honestly just always been so thrilled to even have the opportunity to become a physician that I've said I'll just make the best of whatever comes my way. Call it settling, but for people like myself, the details aren't worth stressing over 🙂

Haha Grace... I always enjoy your positive attitude in your posts.

I'm pretty confident that even if a school has a limited OPTI, people can match wherever they want given great board scores, class grades, and positive rotation letters. I'm planning on just going the ACGME route. I think this will avoid a lot of issues with those internship years and such. I'm sure my plan will be modified as I learn more about this stuff once I start school, so hopefully things will work out the way I want them to! haha.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Yeah I feel the same way. I'm looking at ACGME residencies because there are zero osteopathic EM residencies in my home state. I also would like to keep the option open to do a fellowship if I become interested in it later on.

That said, these are decisions you make as you go through school. I'm not sure it's reasonable that an applicant should know so specifically what he/she wants to do and where. The argument could be made: why limit yourself? Why not just go to a school that has a huge OPTI list that might help you, and worse case scenario it is a non-factor? I can understand the reasoning. I think DCOM has lots to offer it's students, but this is certainly a weakness that is worth talking about.

Thanks for at least acknowledging it.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Haha Grace... I always enjoy your positive attitude in your posts.

I'm pretty confident that even if a school has a limited OPTI, people can match wherever they want given great board scores, class grades, and positive rotation letters. I'm planning on just going the ACGME route. I think this will avoid a lot of issues with those internship years and such. I'm sure my plan will be modified as I learn more about this stuff once I start school, so hopefully things will work out the way I want them to! haha.

I think you're being sincere and not mocking me, so I'll say thanks 🙂

Anything is possible in all this...some things are just less likely. If I were interested in competitive specialties and could have a leg up by going to a school who offered those residency programs in their OPTI, I would. And beyond all beliefs of many on this board, it is possible to know that you have no desire to pursue a highly competitive specialty 🙂

 

[Iliketoytles]

I think you're being sincere and not mocking me, so I'll say thanks 🙂

Anything is possible in all this...some things are just less likely. If I were interested in competitive specialties and could have a leg up by going to a school who offered those residency programs in their OPTI. And beyond all beliefs of many on this board, it is possible to know that you have no desire to pursue a highly competitive specialty 🙂

I was being sincere. lol.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

I thought so....but as you know, sarcasm runs rampant on these forums, so it's also wise to have your radar turned on 🙂