numbers vs ECs

[Dulcina]

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I'm a little worried, because I've gotten a lot of mixed advice from different people. I'm wondering where I stand in the applicant pool if I have really great numbers (gpa and mcat), but pretty much no experience and extracurriculars.

The extracurriculars I do have (pathetic, I know), are:
1) research thesis in env health (not heavily lab research, unfortunately)
2) backpacking/outdoorsy leader for a school-organized trip
3) TA for an intro class

I'm working on getting a research job, but it isn't that easy. I'm also going to start volunteering in an ER next month.

Am I screwed? I see all these applicants with amazing ECs, like volunteering for 5 yrs, 3 publications, went to a foreign country and saved a thousand lives.

More importantly, what things should I work on? Btw, I'm applying next cycle (1 yr from now), so I have some time to work on my ECs. THANKS for any advice!!😛

 

[riversoul]

I'm a little worried, because I've gotten a lot of mixed advice from different people. I'm wondering where I stand in the applicant pool if I have really great numbers (gpa and mcat), but pretty much no experience and extracurriculars.

The extracurriculars I do have (pathetic, I know), are:
1) research thesis in env health (not heavily lab research, unfortunately)
2) backpacking/outdoorsy leader for a school-organized trip
3) TA for an intro class

I'm working on getting a research job, but it isn't that easy. I'm also going to start volunteering in an ER next month.

Am I screwed? I see all these applicants with amazing ECs, like volunteering for 5 yrs, 3 publications, went to a foreign country and saved a thousand lives.

More importantly, what things should I work on? Btw, I'm applying next cycle (1 yr from now), so I have some time to work on my ECs. THANKS for any advice!!😛

first, what are your "really great" numbers?

second, you definitely need clinical experience, imo.

i'm applying this cycle, and i have to say if i didn't have my clinical experiences (working at an ophthalmologist's office for 2 years, nursing home work + volunteer), it would have been VERY difficult writing my personal statement and responding to all the secondary essay questions (you need community service activities to answer some of these too).

How do you plan on answering the question "Why medicine?" I would think that you need extensive clincial experience during undergrad to show adcoms that you have a good sense of what you're getting yourself into...

if i were you, i would try to shadow / work for a physician ASAP. You may need a clinical letter of rec for some schools. speaking of letters of rec, how many profs have agreed to write you letters (assuming you don't have a pre-med committee)? if none, better start looking now. make sure to get at least 2 science and 1 non-science. you'll want to have your letters in by early summer.

volunteering in an ER is a good start. how many hours of volunteering are you planning to do? also, what activities have you done that make you stand out from the rest of the applicant crowd? you'll need an activity that you believe most other applicants haven't done in order to answer the "How will you contribute to the diversity of our med student body" secondary question.

make the most of your last year before applications, and APPLY EARLY. g/l

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm a little worried, because I've gotten a lot of mixed advice from different people. I'm wondering where I stand in the applicant pool if I have really great numbers (gpa and mcat), but pretty much no experience and extracurriculars.

The extracurriculars I do have (pathetic, I know), are:
1) research thesis in env health (not heavily lab research, unfortunately)
2) backpacking/outdoorsy leader for a school-organized trip
3) TA for an intro class

I'm working on getting a research job, but it isn't that easy. I'm also going to start volunteering in an ER next month.

Am I screwed? I see all these applicants with amazing ECs, like volunteering for 5 yrs, 3 publications, went to a foreign country and saved a thousand lives.

More importantly, what things should I work on? Btw, I'm applying next cycle (1 yr from now), so I have some time to work on my ECs. THANKS for any advice!!😛

I would spend less effort trying to get the research job and more on getting more clinical experience. People get into med school without research, but rarely do without clinical stuff - you should think of it as a prereq. So your upcoming volunteering really should be the top priority given your short time frame, and you may want to squeeze in some shadowing on top of that. The point of clinical exposure is so that you actually get to see what physicians do for a living and thus are able to make a more informed decision. You want something where you get to see patients and see the doctor patient interaction.

A handful of scools also like to see non-health volunteering as well (i.e. soup kitchen, Big Brother/Big Sister, habitat for humanity kinds of stuff).

On a purely definitional note, research done for a school thesis is research, but is technically not "extra-curricular" -- it is "curricular".

 

[Dulcina]

wow thanks for the input guys!
to answer the questions... (sorry for the capped headers... looked too unorganized without them)

NUMBERS: 4.0 sci gpa, 3.88 total gpa, 39R mcat

WHY MEDICINE: i've done a bit of wilderness medicine (not practiced, simply learned in 2 80 hr courses), and I found that I loved it. I didnt even realize it at the time, took me 3 yrs after it to finally give in and admit that i liked it

SHADOWING: hmmm i think i will take both of your advices and try to shadow. I had a shadow set up earlier, but the doctor got a herniated disk 😱 how many hrs is appropriate for this?

ER: I'll be volunteering 4 hrs/week, so by application time (i'm applying next cycle), itll be around 200 hrs. Should I try for more?

RECS: I have 2 professors writing recs (ochem prof, env sci prof). I was going to get the 3rd one from volunteering or a job. do you think the "job" one will count as science, giving me 2 science?

DIVERSITY: as for standing out from others, I have pretty unique interests that dont seem that appealing to med schools lol. I did almost all performing arts through college (dance, piano, flute, guitar, acting, singing), and then got into backpacking a lot, and did tons of trips. Pretty much everything that makes me unique is unmedical lol.

law2doc, thank you for the "The point of clinical exposure is so that you actually get to see what physicians do for a living and thus are able to make a more informed decision. You want something where you get to see patients and see the doctor patient interaction. " makes a lot of sense. I know that i'm sure that I want to do it, but I totally understand why I need "proof".

to both of you, thanks a ton. I'm just as scared lol, but at least i know what i should do now!

 

[Law2Doc]

I know that i'm sure that I want to do it, but I totally understand why I need "proof".

yeah, adcoms mainly want to weed out the folks whose only exposure to what being a doctor is all about is through TV, or via some relative who seems to have a cool job. Medicine is going to consume the bulk of your life for the rest of your life, and once you start, it is frequently too expensive to change paths, so the decision needs to be as well thought out as possible. Hence the emphasis on clinical stuff, all the "why medicine" questions and essays, etc.

 

[ScienceJunkie]

NUMBERS: 4.0 sci gpa, 3.88 total gpa, 39R mcat

dang, you definitely have the numbers down. let me put it this way: the hard part is done; now you just have to volunteer, shadow, research, etc. (IMO much easier than getting the numbers you earned) hardcore and you'll be an excellent candidate. best of luck.

 

[AlexMorph]

Speaking of shadowing, what's the best way to go about that? I don't really have any personal connections nor any doctors I know around here. Do I just randomly try to contact local doctors?

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Good numbers crappy EC's = will get in
Good EC's crappy numbers = will not get in
Good numbers good EC's = will get into top school

For your case, you have the numbers and will definitely get in somewhere. But without excellent EC's don't count on getting into Harvard or Hopkins.

 

[Dulcina]

Speaking of shadowing, what's the best way to go about that? I don't really have any personal connections nor any doctors I know around here. Do I just randomly try to contact local doctors?

i second this question, and have a partial answer

i read on my volunteer website that shadowing is a "possibility" for volunteers. I'm guessing that volunteers get to know doctors while volunteering, and maybe can ask the drs to volunteer. Other than that, I'm not sure, i'm having the same problem now hehe

 

[Law2Doc]

Good numbers crappy EC's = will get in
Good EC's crappy numbers = will not get in
Good numbers good EC's = will get into top school

For your case, you have the numbers and will definitely get in somewhere. But without excellent EC's don't count on getting into Harvard or Hopkins.

I would qualify your first sentence with "maybe" and "rarely". There have been more than a few cases (even on SDN) of people with just numbers and little else who don't get the nod. People aren't doing these ECs just to get into top schools - they are doing them because you have to to get into med school period.

 

[Bacchus]

Speaking of shadowing, what's the best way to go about that? I don't really have any personal connections nor any doctors I know around here. Do I just randomly try to contact local doctors?

If you don't have any contacts within the medical world then the Yellow Pages will be your friend. Call up an office and see if the doctor will allow you to shadow. Be patient, it takes them some time to get back to you, usually. There is always a chance to shadow your family practitioner. You'll see a lot of chronic patients and this will enlighten you to doctor/patient relationship building. Don't expect anything too crazy to happen, unless you get to see some office surgeries. Otherwise, warm up to the doctors you're volunteering around and see if they will let you shadow them. I shadowed the FP, now I'm going to try to butter up the residents and attendings during my second volunteer session. Remember, if you can't find a specialist to shadow it shouldn't be a huge deal because you will always get to explore specialties/different aspect of medicine in your clinical rounds.

 

[AlexMorph]

it seems me and Dulcina here are kinda on the same page, so maybe you guys can help us both out

My numbers are pretty decent too. 3.95 with 34 MCAT
I have plenty of leadership experience like TA and tutor

volunteer experiences that are medically related but not entirely clinical, to elaborate, I work with planned parenthood to do some community activism about sex ed. and I perform minor duties at the clinic, also I work with a local organization to stop discrimination against low-income persons wanting health care (our local clinics won't accept uninsured or medicare/medicaid patients

I'm also doing research with the potential of a paper by year's end

So much is the fact that I don't have true clinical experience gonna end up biting me? (I'm trying hard to get something going this year, but working 5 part-time jobs to pay for stuff has long killed my social life and is taking a huge toll on the time available to volunteer)

I didn't mean to hijack your thread Dulcina, but hopefully, you can get something out of this too. BTW, nice mcat score 🙂

 

[ADeadLois]

it seems me and Dulcina here are kinda on the same page, so maybe you guys can help us both out

My numbers are pretty decent too. 3.95 with 34 MCAT
I have plenty of leadership experience like TA and tutor

volunteer experiences that are medically related but not entirely clinical, to elaborate, I work with planned parenthood to do some community activism about sex ed. and I perform minor duties at the clinic, also I work with a local organization to stop discrimination against low-income persons wanting health care (our local clinics won't accept uninsured or medicare/medicaid patients

I'm also doing research with the potential of a paper by year's end

So much is the fact that I don't have true clinical experience gonna end up biting me? (I'm trying hard to get something going this year, but working 5 part-time jobs to pay for stuff has long killed my social life and is taking a huge toll on the time available to volunteer)

I didn't mean to hijack your thread Dulcina, but hopefully, you can get something out of this too. BTW, nice mcat score 🙂

It's next to impossible to get into medical school without clinical experience. What kind of "minor duties" did you perform at the PP clinic?

 

[ADeadLois]

Speaking of shadowing, what's the best way to go about that? I don't really have any personal connections nor any doctors I know around here. Do I just randomly try to contact local doctors?

Pretty much.

 

[Bacchus]

I work with a local organization to stop discrimination against low-income persons wanting health care (our local clinics won't accept uninsured or medicare/medicaid patients).

Am I missing something? What's the point of it then (the clinic)? Why not just go to their family doctor? Anyway, get some shadowing (refer to my post above).

 

[Law2Doc]

So much is the fact that I don't have true clinical experience gonna end up biting me? (I'm trying hard to get something going this year, but working 5 part-time jobs to pay for stuff has long killed my social life and is taking a huge toll on the time available to volunteer)

You really want to get yourself into a hospital or other healthcare setting before you apply. The other things you describe are great ECs, but not something schools would consider clinical experience. I know several folks with good stats and mostly research ECs who were told they were basically rejected when it was ascertained that they lacked any clinical experience. So you really want to consider this a prereq. As a prior poster indicated, you got the hard stuff out of the way -- why blow it by not spending some time crossing the "t"s and dotting the "i" with the clinical stuff. Additionally, how do you even know if you will like medicine if you can't find time to see what medicine is really all about -- the interrelation of doctors and patients, and what doctors do all day. That's all clinical experience is about -- helping you make an informed decision about something you will be doing for the next 4+ decades. Med school is a particularly bad place to be when you ultimately decide that this service oriented profession isn't what you had in mind.

 

[AlexMorph]

Am I missing something? What's the point of it then (the clinic)? Why not just go to their family doctor? Anyway, get some shadowing (refer to my post above).

over 90% of the doctors in this area belong to the clinics, the other 10% belong to the hospitals where they won't exactly deny you but still charge you an arm and a leg, there are almost no individual practitioners here

and about the duties I performed, pulling charts, making appointments, directing patients to the rooms, some basic interaction with patients is there i guess

 

[Law2Doc]

and about the duties I performed, pulling charts, making appointments, directing patients to the rooms, some basic interaction with patients is there i guess

You could probably spin it, but you'd have to sell it a whole lot better than that. I would still personally do a bit of shadowing or more conventional volunteering if I were you.

 

[Dulcina]

I didn't mean to hijack your thread Dulcina, but hopefully, you can get something out of this too.

please do hijack my thread! advice for you is bound to help lots of people, including me 😀 You seem to be in a bit of a better situation than me, wiht better ECs.

I thought about my thesis research a bit more, law2doc, and I realized that it might count as an EC. I was hired by superfund to do research, which i did over a summer, then I turned that work into my thesis. Does that count for an EC?

 

[AlexMorph]

You really want to get yourself into a hospital or other healthcare setting before you apply. The other things you describe are great ECs, but not something schools would consider clinical experience. I know several folks with good stats and mostly research ECs who were told they were basically rejected when it was ascertained that they lacked any clinical experience. So you really want to consider this a prereq. As a prior poster indicated, you got the hard stuff out of the way -- why blow it by not spending some time crossing the "t"s and dotting the "i" with the clinical stuff. Additionally, how do you even know if you will like medicine if you can't find time to see what medicine is really all about -- the interrelation of doctors and patients, and what doctors do all day. That's all clinical experience is about -- helping you make an informed decision about something you will be doing for the next 4+ decades.

I know what you mean, and I'm kicking myself for it. I def plan to do something about it, although I'm applying this cycle. I don't know how much good it's gonna do me, but something is better than nothing I guess.

 

[Law2Doc]

I thought about my thesis research a bit more, law2doc, and I realized that it might count as an EC. I was hired by superfund to do research, which i did over a summer, then I turned that work into my thesis. Does that count for an EC?

I don't think it matters where it counts -- you want to list it anyway -- it looks good wherever you put it. I was just saying that if you get college credit for it (i.e. your thesis), then it technically, from a purely definitional point of view, isn't extra-curricular -- it is "within the walls" of your education.