Nurses at it again...

Started by Splenda88
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Splenda88 said:
PAs are on the frontline as well. They should go into social to let everyone knows that... I don't get why nurses feel the need to remind people of something everyone knows. Always try to argue parity with MD/DO.
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Nurses are one of the most trusted professions in America despite being less likely to follow EBM and their lobby organizations constantly pushing for patient endangerment in the form of independent practice. They obviously know how to win the hearts and minds, and since only like 51% of Americans polled want to get the vaccine that could be a huge help in getting us through this, maybe we need their input on how to get the public to trust the task force.
 
I don’t want to be rude but I don’t get what a nurse will add to this. If you want to talk about like your “Covid leadership” or whatever in a specific hospital, ok sure. They’ll be working with those patients and there should be clear communication between what docs/admins/nurses need/want/are capable of doing.

But I just don’t see any reason for including them on national healthcare policy.
 
Ho0v-man said:
I don’t want to be rude but I don’t get what a nurse will add to this. If you want to talk about like your “Covid leadership” or whatever in a specific hospital, ok sure. They’ll be working with those patients and there should be clear communication between what docs/admins/nurses need/want/are capable of doing.

But I just don’t see any reason for including them on national healthcare policy.
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PR probably.
 
I’m a Covid RN and MS3 and I can tell you that there is some merit to listening to the largest group of healthcare professionals in the US who also happen to be most likely to die from stupid policies.

>_>

Like, I’m against independent NP practice and all that but this is completely different. Sometimes even dumb ol’ nurses have valuable things to say. 😉
 
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Ganon said:
I’m a Covid RN and MS3 and I can tell you that there is some merit to listening to the largest group of healthcare professionals in the US who also happen to be most likely to die from stupid policies.

>_>

Like, I’m against independent NP practice and all that but this is completely different. Sometimes even dumb ol’ nurses have valuable things to say. 😉
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I don’t disagree with you, but no one called nurses dumb.
 
Not a bad idea, but I would prefer it be someone who has had some leadership on the frontlines and who would have understanding of logistical/practical considerations docs on the other end of the orders do not really have to think about. I would not want somebody who has a spent his/her time in an administrative office.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Nurses are one of the most trusted professions in America despite being less likely to follow EBM and their lobby organizations constantly pushing for patient endangerment in the form of independent practice. They obviously know how to win the hearts and minds, and since only like 51% of Americans polled want to get the vaccine that could be a huge help in getting us through this, maybe we need their input on how to get the public to trust the task force.
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They are the most trusted profession in the US for over a decade.
Splenda88 said:
www.yahoo.com

Experts say nurses need to be included in Biden-Harris's COVID-19 task force

Health care professionals are asking that a public health nurse be added to the coronavirus task force established by Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
[/

Who hurt you?
Click to expand...
 
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The question people have to ask themselves: Will not putting a DNP nurse in the task force make it less effective? If the answer is yes: They should definitely put more than one DNP nurses in the task force or fill the whole task force with CNA, LPN/LVN, RN, BSN, MSN, CNM, CRNA and DNP for that matter.
 
Internist_Sandman said:
It's not like these taskforces are asking people to describe viral replication and ****. Nonpharmacological interventions (e.g., efficient systems) are going to save more lives than dex/remdesivir.
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That would be an argument against PhD's; but physicians are, by and large, clinicians.

Chibucks15 said:
The actual administration of care and public health is much more nursing though
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There is a good argument for adding a public health administrator or epidemiologist, but not a nurse.

There's no reason not to add a nurse to the team, but to replace a physician on the panel with a nurse - I just can't see how that would be a worthwhile exchange.

Maybe it's my lack of insight into nursing, but what would a mechanic know about cars that a car designer wouldn't? Especially that would apply at a national policy level?

I may be wrong here, I'm not an expert on nursing, but that's my thinking.
 
IsleyOfTheNorth said:
That would be an argument against PhD's; but physicians are, by and large, clinicians.


There is a good argument for adding a public health administrator or epidemiologist, but not a nurse.

There's no reason not to add a nurse to the team, but to replace a physician on the panel with a nurse - I just can't see how that would be a worthwhile exchange.

Maybe it's my lack of insight into nursing, but what would a mechanic know about cars that a car designer wouldn't? Especially that would apply at a national policy level?

I may be wrong here, I'm not an expert on nursing, but that's my thinking.
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Is anyone calling for a physician to be replaced, or is it just adding a nurse?

If the former, can't say I love that. If the latter, who cares?
 
IsleyOfTheNorth said:
That would be an argument against PhD's; but physicians are, by and large, clinicians.


There is a good argument for adding a public health administrator or epidemiologist, but not a nurse.

There's no reason not to add a nurse to the team, but to replace a physician on the panel with a nurse - I just can't see how that would be a worthwhile exchange.

Maybe it's my lack of insight into nursing, but what would a mechanic know about cars that a car designer wouldn't? Especially that would apply at a national policy level?

I may be wrong here, I'm not an expert on nursing, but that's my thinking.
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To them, it's all about: 'We are equal to physicians.'
 
IsleyOfTheNorth said:
Maybe it's my lack of insight into nursing, but what would a mechanic know about cars that a car designer wouldn't?
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1:Lol. A LOT. A mechanic will know where the designer’s plans fell apart. A mechanic will know if a specific part or system is prone to failure when in real-world circumstances and not just AUTOCAD. A mechanic will deal with the customer and the aftermath of their decisions... I’m shocked this is even a question.

2: physicians don’t “design” humans... I know many might *think* they are god, but... c’mon. Weak analogy.
 
How large would you like this task force to be to accomodate every profession involved? If they should add nurses simply for the sake of representation then we also have to add pharmacist, PAs, PT, etc. The task force's job is designing policies at a national level and the current members chosen are secondary to their extensive role and expertise in that field. If we are talking about designing hospital specific protocols then that would absolutely need to include nurses but I don't see how being a nurse is relevant to national policy development.
 
Ganon said:
1:Lol. A LOT. A mechanic will know where the designer’s plans fell apart. A mechanic will know if a specific part or system is prone to failure when in real-world circumstances and not just AUTOCAD. A mechanic will deal with the customer and the aftermath of their decisions... I’m shocked this is even a question.
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Yes, but what car designer isn't already soliciting that feedback to make adjustments? Presumably, Biden's Dirty Dozen are good physicians., meaning that they're aware of conditions "on the ground". It's sort of like saying, "How can the generals go into the War Room without input from the privates?" Good generals have that information from their sergeants well before entering the War Room.
 
IsleyOfTheNorth said:
Yes, but what car designer isn't already soliciting that feedback to make adjustments? Presumably, Biden's Dirty Dozen are good physicians., meaning that they're aware of conditions "on the ground". It's sort of like saying, "How can the generals go into the War Room without input from the privates?" Good generals have that information from their sergeants well before entering the War Room.
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Why do you think planes have test pilots? Even good designs will have issues when implemented in real life. Having a nurse with experience delivering care in COVID would only benefit the task force. There’s no reason they can’t add one, though I agree replacing a physician would likely not be a worthwhile exchange. But I don’t think that’s what’s on the table.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Why do you think planes have test pilots? Even good designs will have issues when implemented in real life. Having a nurse with experience delivering care in COVID would only benefit the task force. There’s no reason they can’t add one, though I agree replacing a physician would likely not be a worthwhile exchange. But I don’t think that’s what’s on the table.
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If you want a distrustful population to adopt change they are resistant to then having the most trusted profession in America advocating that change is likely a better tactic then another doctor echoing all the other doctors who are already on the panel.

www.forbes.com

America's Most & Least Trusted Professions [Infographic]

Nurses have once again been rated the most honest and ethical profession in America.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
 
DrNotaDr said:
If you want a distrustful population to adopt change they are resistant to then having the most trusted profession in America advocating that change is likely a better tactic then another doctor echoing all the other doctors who are already on the panel.

www.forbes.com

America's Most & Least Trusted Professions [Infographic]

Nurses have once again been rated the most honest and ethical profession in America.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
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Agreed. I have my own qualms as to how nursing orgs are abusing that trust, but it is there. A good nurse with COVID experience who knows how to leverage his or her public image to get people onboard with the vaccine and mask wearing could be a big help.
 
Splenda88 said:
www.yahoo.com

Experts say nurses need to be included in Biden-Harris's COVID-19 task force

Health care professionals are asking that a public health nurse be added to the coronavirus task force established by Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
Click to expand...
They legitimately provide a perspective that a public health physician likely won't have. Like, our hopsital leadership had very little idea of the conditions and workflow of most nursing staff and didn't account for it when COVID recommendations were put out and it was disastrous
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I tend to agree. Though these days even the pictures of the bodies being stacked outside NY hospitals didn’t convince people. They just said they were fake.
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We do live in a post truth world. Dying of COVID is basically drowning for 2 weeks. If we could show people how awful of a death it is we may be able to change behavior. Wish we could just show the last hour of a COVID bipap death live on TV with the patients consent. Show a new death everyday.
 
Internist_Sandman said:
Wow... nurses recognizing that they bring valuable perspectives about patient care to the table and wanting those perspectives represented.

Can’t believe they’re at that.
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nowanmd said:
Nurses are very much on thr frontline so yeah their input is important
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Mad Jack said:
They legitimately provide a perspective that a public health physician likely won't have. Like, our hopsital leadership had very little idea of the conditions and workflow of most nursing staff and didn't account for it when COVID recommendations were put out and it was disastrous
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The altruism nonsense is cute but we all know it'd be an NP(Probably a DNP aka even faker noctor) and they'd just use the platform to push FPA.

The last thing nurses need is to be put on an even higher pedestal. They're just doing a job like millions of other people. Stop patting them on the back so much
 
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Rekt said:
The altruism nonsense is cute but we all know it'd be an NP(Probably a DNP aka even faker noctor) and they'd just use the platform to push FPA.

The last thing nurses need is to be put on an even higher pedestal. They're just doing a job like millions of other people. Stop patting them on the back so much
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There is no pedestal here.

Fact: nurses are on the frontline of COVID.

Fact: they provide a unique perspective on patient care during the epidemic.

Given this, it's reasonable for them to want input on Biden's COVID taskforce.

That's literally it. We're not talking about how great nurses are, how they are the ones who truly care about patients, or any of the usual nursing lobby talking points.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Fact: nurses are on the frontline of COVID.
Fact: they provide a unique perspective on patient care during the epidemic.
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Soldiers are on the frontlines. The send their concerns and suggestions up the chain of command, they don't call a press conference to demand a spot in the War Room.

A good percentage of nurses I've encountered don't believe in vaccines, for crying out loud.
 
IsleyOfTheNorth said:
Soldiers are on the frontlines. The send their concerns and suggestions up the chain of command, they don't call a press conference to demand a spot in the War Room.

A good percentage of nurses I've encountered don't believe in vaccines, for crying out loud.
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Who the hell are you meeting? Haha vaccines are all required at every healthcare facility I’ve ever worked at.
Nurses do a hell of a lot and they will be instrumental in COVID response rollout, hence why they need a representation. I don’t see why this is such a big deal to some.

They aren’t driving the bus they’re providing insight. It’s a similar thing to multi-disciplinary rounds many hospitals do with social work and all that. This weird vendetta against every RN is gonna bite ya
 
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Chibucks15 said:
Who the hell are you meeting? Haha vaccines are all required at every healthcare facility I’ve ever worked at.
Nurses do a hell of a lot and they will be instrumental in COVID response rollout, hence why they need a representation. I don’t see why this is such a big deal to some.

They aren’t driving the bus they’re providing insight. It’s a similar thing to multi-disciplinary rounds many hospitals do with social work and all that. This weird vendetta against every RN is gonna bite ya
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I have also met a disturbingly large number of nurses who don’t believe in vaccines. Nurses at my wife’s old job refused to get the flu vaccine despite working with cancer patients, and they went to their union when the hospital said they had to get the vaccine or wear a mask all flu season.

I also know a nurse who tried to treat her cancer with coffee enemas, vitamin infusions, and essential oils instead of chemo.

I know several nurses who don’t vaccinate their children because they think they’re bad.

Nursing education is highly variable, and there was a study showing nurses are more likely to ignore EBM for anecdotes and “feelings.” This is not uncommon among the nursing profession.

Not saying a nurse shouldn’t be on the task force. I think it’s a pretty good idea to add one. But let’s not pretend nurses are all some amazing group of highly educated people. I’ve been working with them for over a decade, and I’ve met plenty that didn’t give eight cans of shark **** about patients or keeping up their education and plenty who knew far less about medicine than I did as an MS1.
 
I met Dr who killed patients...I met Dr who refused to wear seatbelt...I met Dr who I would not even let them touch my dogs...let alone my families. There are bad and good in every profession. No need to bashing each other. We all should work together. If they want one of them to be on board for Covid. Let them be. If one of you disagree, feel free to put in your resume and fight for the spot. I don’t see why we spend so much time bashing each other profession. We all need each other. Patients get the best care when we work together instead of against each other.
 
Rekt said:
The altruism nonsense is cute but we all know it'd be an NP(Probably a DNP aka even faker noctor) and they'd just use the platform to push FPA.

The last thing nurses need is to be put on an even higher pedestal. They're just doing a job like millions of other people. Stop patting them on the back so much
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The vocal ones are not the RNs... It's the fake doctors (DNP) that are on social media pushing their nonsense.
 
frenchyn said:
I met Dr who killed patients...I met Dr who refused to wear seatbelt...I met Dr who I would not even let them touch my dogs...let alone my families. There are bad and good in every profession. No need to bashing each other. We all should work together. If they want one of them to be on board for Covid. Let them be. If one of you disagree, feel free to put in your resume and fight for the spot. I don’t see why we spend so much time bashing each other profession. We all need each other. Patients get the best care when we work together instead of against each other.
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No one is bashing anyone. There are bad apples in every profession. Andrew Wakefield was a doctor ffs. That doesn’t change anything that has been said.

You will find far, far fewer doctors who completely ignore evidence based medicine to the point where they are telling people vaccines are bad because doctors have significant education in medicine. In fact, it is so uncommon that most of us can probably rattle off the names of the big ones because they are such odd balls.

Again, that nurses don’t have the same level of medical knowledge as a doctor is not a reason to keep them off the team. They have a unique perspective and can add a lot of value. The whole knowledge gap argument isn’t really a good one here, since no one is proposing that we replace physicians with nurses.
 
Splenda88 said:
The vocal ones are not the RNs... It's the fake doctors (DNP) that are on social media pushing their nonsense.
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Mostly agree, but there are a lot of RNs who a vocal about how they protect their patients from doctors trying to kill them with mistakes and ****. That kind of antagonistic crap hurts patient care.
 
In general I agree that nursing orgs do abuse the trust that the public put in their profession... but at the same time, I also do think having a nurse on the advisory committee is not a bad idea. Sure, the physicians have the greatest medical knowledge and can make the best policy decisions, but having a nurse may lend an important perspective on how those decisions can realistically be implemented.

Plus, it costs literally nothing to allow a nurse on the committee. All upside, no downside.
 
GoSpursGo said:
Plus, it costs literally nothing to allow a nurse on the committee. All upside, no downside.
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That's true for hospital administrators, psychologists, social workers, politicians, EMTs, sanitation engineers, volunteers, rescue dogs....

Should we add one of each? All upside, no downside, yes?

3614168-total_rickall.jpg
 
IsleyOfTheNorth said:
The point is, EVERYONE has SOMETHING to add, so "something to add" is not a worthwhile criteria. There has to be a balance between packing as much expertise into the group as possible without making the group too large to work efficiently.
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Yes. And the point is that nurses are doing much more direct patient care with COVID patients than the vast majority of physicians, and that experience is valuable in helping point out potential flaws or hangups in any plan that is developed. Additionally, this country has a huge trust issue with scientists and physicians, but they are obsessed with nurses. Both of those things would be huge somethings to add. Ignoring both of those to disparage nurses being on the team is just bias against them.
 
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