MD & DO NYU med student hangs herself in dorm room

[apoplectic]

very very upsetting! This is stressing me out and I hate this happening!
I dont understand how a 4th year MD student can do this right as they are about to launch!

God this is awful.

\\\\\\\

NYU med student hangs herself in dorm room

A distraught NYU medical student hanged herself inside a dorm, according to police sources Tuesday.

The body of Andrea Liu, 26, was found hanging by a rope inside Vilcek Hall at 334 E. 26th St. — an NYU-owned dorm — just before 11 a.m. Tuesday, sources said.

Police believe it was a suicide and say Liu left a note, according to sources.

Liu was a fourth-year radiology student set to graduate this year, according to friend and classmate Jing Ye, who knew her for four years.”​

NYpost

NYU medical student hangs herself in Kips Bay dorm
An NYU medical student hanged herself at a university dorm in Kips Bay Tuesday, police and sources said.

© Andrew Savulich/New York Daily News An NYU student was found by police after she hanged herself…
The 26-year-old student was found by police at Vilcek Hall, a residence for the NYU School of Medicine, at 334 E. 26th St. after someone called 911 just after 10 a.m.

Police recovered a suicide note at the scene, a source said.

NYdailynews
​

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[MSTPlease]

I dont understand how a 4th year MD student can do this right as they are about to launch!

Maybe her depression stemmed from things unrelated to medical school? (pure speculation by the way - I know nothing about her) One of the things that bothered me about the Sinai response to a student suicide the other year was the emphasis on the stressors of medical school. We all exist outside the hospital and sometimes non-medical school life is more stressful than medical school.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

"The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling."

- David Foster Wallace (1962 - 2008)

 

[apoplectic]

this was published today

Young Americans are the loneliest, surprising study from Cigna shows

I cant provide the link but it is on usatoday

interesting and depressing info:

“A new study finds that young people are reporting loneliness in increasing numbers and at a rate outpacing that of their elderly counterparts. Jayne O'Donnell reports on the study's findings. USA TODAY

Young people are far more likely than senior citizens to report being lonely and in poor health, a surprising survey of 20,000 Americans released Tuesday shows.

The overall national loneliness score was alarmingly high at 44 on a 20-to-80 scale, but the prevalence of social isolation among those ages 18 to 22 raises even more concern. The younger people, part of Generation Z, had loneliness scores of about 48 compared with nearly 39 for those 72 and older. “

 

[Anti-PD1]

This is a tragic loss for her, her family, her friends, ... and yes, the people she helped and would have helped in her lifetime.

 

[Goro]

very very upsetting! This is stressing me out and I hate this happening!
I dont understand how a 4th year MD student can do this right as they are about to launch!

God this is awful.

\\\\\\\

NYU med student hangs herself in dorm room

A distraught NYU medical student hanged herself inside a dorm, according to police sources Tuesday.

The body of Andrea Liu, 26, was found hanging by a rope inside Vilcek Hall at 334 E. 26th St. — an NYU-owned dorm — just before 11 a.m. Tuesday, sources said.

Police believe it was a suicide and say Liu left a note, according to sources.

Liu was a fourth-year radiology student set to graduate this year, according to friend and classmate Jing Ye, who knew her for four years.”​

NYpost

NYU medical student hangs herself in Kips Bay dorm
An NYU medical student hanged herself at a university dorm in Kips Bay Tuesday, police and sources said.

© Andrew Savulich/New York Daily News An NYU student was found by police after she hanged herself…
The 26-year-old student was found by police at Vilcek Hall, a residence for the NYU School of Medicine, at 334 E. 26th St. after someone called 911 just after 10 a.m.

Police recovered a suicide note at the scene, a source said.

NYdailynews
​

Heartbreaking.

 

[apoplectic]

Heartbreaking.

Step 1 is next month for me. When I read the article, my first thought was, “call my therapist on campus”.

I am not that bad but yes I can understand the darkness at times.

 

[acutepox]

So upsetting. If anyone needs to chat, I'm around.

 

[anonymitas]

I dont understand how a 4th year MD student can do this right as they are about to launch!

I wonder how she took her match

 

[DexterMorganSK]

God, not again NYU

 

[Oso]

I dont understand how a 4th year MD student can do this right as they are about to launch!

Depression can make it difficult to truly enjoy things and/or look forward to the future. A life without joy and any kind of excitement for what's to come feels unbearable, similar to the burning building in the DFW quote above. I can imagine how the prospect of graduating and beginning residency could feel like a meaningless drop in the bucket in a life like this, or perhaps it would elicit even more apprehension and hopelessness. We can't and won't understand what this person was feeling or how their almost being done with medical school fit into this context.

I wonder how she took her match

IF it was influenced by her match, then I bet her match outcome would have been the tipping point following a very long and complicated cascade of events that we will never even begin to understand. I know you didn't mean it like this, but I hope no one views this as a simple 'person with history of depression was unhappy with match result so took their life".

 

[raiderette]

Med School and physician suicide is a real problem. We are high-achieving, type A personalities in a society that doesn't accept failure. I hope everyone here that is struggling can reach out for help if they are hurting, and can offer help if they see something that is concerning.

 

[LutGholein]

It’s tough reading this— someone on her way out of medical school. It might of been personal stressors and we can only hope the class looks out for one another in times like this

 

[CherryRedDracul]

IF it was influenced by her match, then I bet her match outcome would have been the tipping point following a very long and complicated cascade of events that we will never even begin to understand. I know you didn't mean it like this, but I hope no one views this as a simple 'person with history of depression was unhappy with match result so took their life".

For this year, NYU matched 2 of their students into their own program. And NYU is a top program in radiology.

The other one matched into Yale, but Yale's not that bad!

We can only guess as to what triggered her to kill herself until we actually see her suicide note. I had a friend who killed himself when we were in undergrad, and he seemed like a happy guy with lots of social support among our group of friends. His suicide caught us way-off guard.

 

[Oso]

We can only guess as to what triggered her to kill herself until we actually see her suicide note. I had a friend who killed himself when we were in undergrad, and he seemed like a happy guy with lots of social support among our group of friends. His suicide caught us way-off guard.

Halfway through my first year of medical school, a very friendly, charismatic, and upbeat girl in the class above mine took her life. I actually met her during my orientation and would run into her from time to time. She was always very sweet and genuinely interested in how school was going for me so far. I was so caught off guard when I found out what had happened. I remember overhearing some of her closest friends taking about how they were absolutely shocked. It was a tragic loss for our whole school. We never know what demons others are silently battling.

 

[Entadus]

Maybe her depression stemmed from things unrelated to medical school? (pure speculation by the way - I know nothing about her) One of the things that bothered me about the Sinai response to a student suicide the other year was the emphasis on the stressors of medical school. We all exist outside the hospital and sometimes non-medical school life is more stressful than medical school.

"...maybe it just collapsed on its own...?"

 

[MSTPlease]

"...maybe it just collapsed on its own...?"

I know, right???? Nothing, absolutely NOTHING in this world is as stressful as medical school. The idea that a student might *gasp* enjoy being on the floors and being able to forget about what ails them outside the hospital is just crazy talk.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I know, right???? Nothing, absolutely NOTHING in this world is as stressful as medical school. The idea that a student might *gasp* enjoy being on the floors and being able to forget about what ails them outside the hospital is just crazy talk.

Fo real, there is more to life than medicine

 

[IMApplicant18]

Awful. I didn’t deal with depression until I was already an attending, but let me tell you, it is a monster that is very difficult to fight. I hope everyone takes time for self-care daily, no matter where you are in your career—from premed to attending. You, yourself, are the first line of defense in the realm of mental health.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

How can you possibly get depression as an Ortho attending? You pulling in nearly $1 million a year, banging tall models left and right, driving a Mercedes-Maybach, and living in a castle dining on Foie Gras and Caviar Q3 daily!

 

[IMApplicant18]

I wonder how she took her match

Very possible reason - a classmate matched low for IM to a community program and was depressed to this day still. He realized matching community IM = no fellowship = primary care IM for rest of his life = his childhood dream of being a physician is over.

How close was he to suicide? That I cannot speculate

 

[GrignardsReagent]

Ah yes the classic primary care are not physicians argument.

Makes sense




/s

 

[Milotic]

Very possible reason - a classmate matched low for IM to a community program and was depressed to this day still. He realized matching community IM = no fellowship = primary care IM for rest of his life = his childhood dream of being a physician is over.

How close was he to suicide? That I cannot speculate

Umm, he is LITERALLY still going to be a physician. That guy is analogous to a pre-med starting at a DO school and is depressed that they just realized it's hard to match ACGME ENT. People need to do their research, let alone just glance at a fellowship PD survey to realize that going to an academic-based residency is a factor in of itself.

On the other hand, I can second this. There was someone who got their last choice and was contemplating killing themselves. They are okay now though. Others sank into depression and out of existence for a good month.

 

[IMApplicant18]

Umm, he is LITERALLY still going to be a physician. That guy is analogous to a pre-med starting at a DO school and is depressed that they just realized it's hard to match ACGME ENT. People need to do their research, let alone just glance at a fellowship PD survey to realize that going to an academic-based residency is a factor in of itself.

On the other hand, I can second this. There was someone who got their last choice and was contemplating killing themselves. They are okay now though. Others sank into depression and out of existence for a good month.

Going to Bob Jones University for undergrad technically and literally makes you a college student. Does it really = going to somewhere like UCLA or comparable?

Exactly like how being a GP dealing with runny nose, GERD, well-child checks does not equal to the experience of being a Cardiologist.

 

[Milotic]

Going to Bob Jones University for undergrad technically and literally makes you a college student. Does it really = going to somewhere like UCLA or comparable?

Exactly like how being a GP dealing with runny nose, GERD, well-child checks does equal to the experience of being a Cardiologist.

No, but by definition they are still college students. By definition, a GP and a cardiologist are both physicians.

 

[IMApplicant18]

No, but by definition they are still college students. By definition, a GP and a cardiologist are both physicians.

Yes but you get my point. Going to an unaccreditted online college technically makes you a college student, but not really...

 

[IsWhat]

Going to Bob Jones University for undergrad technically and literally makes you a college student. Does it really = going to somewhere like UCLA or comparable?

Exactly like how being a GP dealing with runny nose, GERD, well-child checks does not equal to the experience of being a Cardiologist.

Not the thread for this nonsense.

 

[Milotic]

Yes but you get my point. Going to an unaccreditted online college technically makes you a college student, but not really...

I'd argue the difference between an online unaccreditted college student vs UCLA student is astronomical compared to a family physician vs a cardiologist. The stratification cannot be compared.

 

[Oso]

How can you possibly get depression as an Ortho attending? You pulling in nearly $1 million a year, banging tall models left and right, driving a Mercedes-Maybach, and living in a castle dining on Foie Gras and Caviar Q3 daily!

Anyone can suffer from depression, regardless of circumstance.

Going to Bob Jones University for undergrad technically and literally makes you a college student. Does it really = going to somewhere like UCLA or comparable?

Exactly like how being a GP dealing with runny nose, GERD, well-child checks does not equal to the experience of being a Cardiologist.

Yes but you get my point. Going to an unaccreditted online college technically makes you a college student, but not really...

ENOUGH. This is a thread discussing the loss of a colleague of ours. Do not derail it with this petty nonsense.

 

[anbuitachi]

How can you possibly get depression as an Ortho attending? You pulling in nearly $1 million a year, banging tall models left and right, driving a Mercedes-Maybach, and living in a castle dining on Foie Gras and Caviar Q3 daily!

it's all relative i think. 200k seems like a lot to your average american, but when everyone around you makes 6 figures, it doesn't seem that great anymore. same in CS, everyone outside of CS know how great they have it. The free meals fancy meals, the chill/high tech work environments, the flexible hours, the 500k/yr as a 25 yr olds, but hey they dont' tthink they have it that well cause they are surrounded by ppl like them

but there are a lot of other stuff that can cause depression other than med school.... personal issues, health issues, relationship issues, family deaths/issues etc

 

[Mad Jack]

Umm, he is LITERALLY still going to be a physician. That guy is analogous to a pre-med starting at a DO school and is depressed that they just realized it's hard to match ACGME ENT. People need to do their research, let alone just glance at a fellowship PD survey to realize that going to an academic-based residency is a factor in of itself.

On the other hand, I can second this. There was someone who got their last choice and was contemplating killing themselves. They are okay now though. Others sank into depression and out of existence for a good month.

Post-match depression can be pretty damn real. I know more than a handful of people that were contemplating suicide over the match, all of whom ended up okay but any of whom could have just as easily killed themselves if they weren't more mindful. I know several people suffering from severe depression because of the match that could end up in seriously bad shape during residency. Welcome to medicine everyone, let's hope to god we all make it through alive.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

How can you possibly get depression as an Ortho attending? You pulling in nearly $1 million a year, banging tall models left and right, driving a Mercedes-Maybach, and living in a castle dining on Foie Gras and Caviar Q3 daily!

Not sure if serious or joking but since this is a serious thread...
This “but how can YOU be depressed?” bulls**t is exactly the reason depression is so underdiagnosed. It can strike anybody—rich, poor, happy (robin williams? anyone?), sad, introvert, extrovert. It is an insidious monster that nearly took my life after a traumatic personal event. I never thought it would happen to me. It makes life, even a good life, seem meaningless. It turns you into your own enemy. I did not want to die, and no one with depression actually does. Death is an escape from the pain, and seemed, for a while, like the only way out, until I realized what was happening to me and took serious steps to get help.
What someone posted earlier about jumping from a burning building is 100% true. An orthopaedic trauma surgeon i knew took his life a few months ago, he stabbed himself in the chest. He was the chief of ortho trauma at HSS/Cornell Presbyterian. He had young kids. No amount of wealth, power, or love will save you if depression is allowed to take root inside.
And while we are on the subject of the good life, you seem to have a very skewed view of what Ortho actually means. I don’t make a million, and that Mercedes was bought on 80 hrs/week of hard work, which I still very much do.
Oh, and I’m a woman, so the “banging tall models” comment doesn’t apply (not that any male orthopod i know has ever dated models either, they’re all married to doctors, nurses, or teachers).



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[apoplectic]

It can strike anybody—rich, poor, happy (robin williams? anyone?), sad, introvert, extrovert. It is an insidious monster that nearly took my life after a traumatic personal event. I never thought it would happen to me. It makes life, even a good life, seem meaningless. It turns you into your own enemy. I did not want to die, and no one with depression actually does. ...An orthopaedic trauma surgeon i knew took his life a few months ago, he stabbed himself in the chest. He was the chief of ortho trauma at HSS/Cornell Presbyterian. He had young kids. No amount of wealth, power, or love will save you if depression is allowed to take root inside.

I saw my university therapist last week to touch base with her before taking my upcoming Step 1. She said something last week that stuck with me: “personal values”. If we have personal values, these values guide our actions. Thus suicide is incompatible with certain values, or in my case, my Christian values. Yes, it gets dark sometimes. Living life means enduring pain. Pathology is part of our “cell cycle” since sheet happens. However, we with a large prefrontal cortex know many resources exist that can help us heal from pathology. But if you dont identify those resources and dont execute them if you have identified them, then “cell death” is sure to follow. Apoptosis isnt necessary. No mitochondrial enzymes should be mustered to lyse my being. We have options. My values guide me to taking the necessary steps to remain in integrity with myself.

Your personal story is very much appreciated from attending to medical students like me. I thank you. The story of your colleague, chief of ortho trauma, is a reality check for me. Get a grip of your resources, use them when necessary, remember your values, and go forward.

I think our current culture is toxic particularly with online “viral” alerts, trends and all of the hate. My husband and I walked to dinner last night holding hands, and I was the happiest girl because I had my best friend with me. As we looked around on the streets, the occupants of cars, the restauranf and the majority of people engaged in the usual crap we all see, it was a stark reminder: dont be like them. Engage your surroudings, dont cut yourself off and live those values daily.

Thanks for saving the thread too!

 

[Espressso]

Horrible story.

Does NYU experience more suicides at their medical school than others? A few comments in this thread point to "not another one at NYU", but I've never heard of any others at that university

 

[Mad Jack]

I saw my university therapist last week to touch base with her before taking my upcoming Step 1. She said something last week that stuck with me: “personal values”. If we have personal values, these values guide our actions. Thus suicide is incompatible with certain values, or in my case, my Christian values. Yes, it gets dark sometimes. Living life means enduring pain. Pathology is part of our “cell cycle” since sheet happens. However, we with a large prefrontal cortex know many resources exist that can help us heal from pathology. But if you dont identify those resources and dont execute them if you have identified them, then “cell death” is sure to follow. Apoptosis isnt necessary. No mitochondrial enzymes should be mustered to lyse my being. We have options. My values guide me to taking the necessary steps to remain in integrity with myself.

Your personal story is very much appreciated from attending to medical students like me. I thank you. The story of your colleague, chief of ortho trauma, is a reality check for me. Get a grip of your resources, use them when necessary, remember your values, and go forward.

I think our current culture is toxic particularly with online “viral” alerts, trends and all of the hate. My husband and I walked to dinner last night holding hands, and I was the happiest girl because I had my best friend with me. As we looked around on the streets, the occupants of cars, the restauranf and the majority of people engaged in the usual crap we all see, it was a stark reminder: dont be like them. Engage your surroudings, dont cut yourself off and live those values daily.

Thanks for saving the thread too!

Values are meaningless past a certain point of suffering. Some Christians have a fear of hell that creates a barrier between themselves and suicide, others do not, but given the right circumstances, barriers break. All of your talk of the prefrontal cortex shows a strong misunderstanding of the nature of suicide- it is usually a choice that results in a time of great suffering when your higher level thinking is compromised from sleep deprivation, emotional trauma, hopelessness, or any number of other things. This is why the vast majority of people that survive or are talked down from a suicide attempt do not try to do so again- it was never a well thought out action, it was the result of a temporary state of circumstances and thinking that bypassed their normal protective mechanisms and patterns of thought. To the vast majority of the world that don't live their lives in fear of damnation, they decide in the moment that no longer living is superior to the seemingly oppressive and unending pain before them.

You also don't seem to understand depression. It isn't about social media, relationships, material possessions, or devotion to one's religion. You can have a perfect marriage, career, car, home, bank account, etc and still find yourself in the grip of depression, as it is often biochemical in nature and not circumstantial. It saps the joy from everything you do, like a beast in your mind sucking the brightness from your world without cause or purpose. It takes your energy, and makes you fail to see options that would otherwise be readily apparent. And it makes the hard times feel oh so much worse, and every little setback and inconvenience feel like a serious drain on your already low energy. You may have resources and options, but you can't see them through the mental fog, and even when you catch a glimpse, you're often too drained to gather the strength to set things in motion when you can barely peel yourself out of bed or make yourself breakfast.

Depression isn't just feeling sad. It's feeling drained beyond belief and feeling a world without joy or pleasure when it's bad. It's every food giving you the pleasure of plain oatmeal, the things you used to enjoy feeling as fulfilling as watching a blank screen, the partner you know you love feeling like nothing more than a warm body next to you even though you intellectually know they mean the world to you but it is a feeling you no longer grasp. Your body feels heavy and your energy nonexistent, and basic tasks feel Herculean in nature due to the sheer effort slicing a tomato, paying a bill, or contacting a friend seems to take. Larger tasks feel all but impossible. Joy becomes an unfathomable concept, and even small moments of happiness a distant memory.

You throw all of that at a perfect life and it is, well, miserable. You throw it at someone that is in a life that feels inescapable, such as that of a medical student or resident, and conditions can feel unbearable and unending.

 

[Mad Jack]

Horrible story.

Does NYU experience more suicides at their medical school than others? A few comments in this thread point to "not another one at NYU", but I've never heard of any others at that university

Off the top of my head, there was one more in 2014, jumped off the dorm building.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Values are meaningless past a certain point of suffering. Some Christians have a fear of hell that creates a barrier between themselves and suicide, others do not, but given the right circumstances, barriers break. All of your talk of the prefrontal cortex shows astrong misunderstanding of the nature of suicide- it is usually a choice that results in a time of great suffering when your higher level thinking is compromised from sleep deprivation, emotional trauma, hopelessness, or any number of other things. This is why the vast majority of people that survive or are talked down from a suicide attempt do not try to do so again- it was never a well thought out action, it was the result of a temporary state of circumstances and thinking that bypassed their normal protective mechanisms and patterns of thought. To the vast majority of the world that don't live their lives in fear of damnation, they decide in the moment that no longer living is superior to the seemingly oppressive and unending pain before them.

You also don't seem to understand depression. It isn't about social media, relationships, material possessions, or devotion to one's religion. You can have a perfect marriage, career, car, home, bank account, etc and still find yourself in the grip of depression, as it is often biochemical in nature and not circumstantial. It saps the joy from everything you do, like a beast in your mind sucking the brightness from your world without cause or purpose. It takes your energy, and makes you fail to see options that would otherwise be readily apparent. And it makes the hard times feel oh so much worse, and every little setback and inconvenience feel like a serious drain on your already low energy. You may have resources and options, but you can't see them through the mental fog, and even when you catch a glimpse, you're often too drained to gather the strength to set things in motion when you can barely peel yourself out of bed or make yourself breakfast.

Depression isn't just feeling sad. It's feeling drained beyond belief and feeling a world without joy or pleasure when it's bad. It's every food giving you the pleasure of plain oatmeal, the things you used to enjoy feeling as fulfilling as watching a blank screen, the partner you know you love feeling like nothing more than a warm body next to you even though you intellectually know they mean the world to you but it is a feeling you no longer grasp. Your body feels heavy and your energy nonexistent, and basic tasks feel Herculean in nature due to the sheer effort slicing a tomato, paying a bill, or contacting a friend seems to take. Larger tasks feel all but impossible. Joy becomes an unfathomable concept, and even small moments of happiness a distant memory.

You throw all of that at a perfect life and it is, well, miserable. You throw it at someone that is in a life that feels inescapable, such as that of a medical student or resident, and conditions can feel unbearable and unending.

This.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[MSTPlease]

Not sure if serious or joking but since this is a serious thread...
This “but how can YOU be depressed?” bulls**t is exactly the reason depression is so underdiagnosed. It can strike anybody—rich, poor, happy (robin williams? anyone?), sad, introvert, extrovert. It is an insidious monster that nearly took my life after a traumatic personal event. I never thought it would happen to me. It makes life, even a good life, seem meaningless. It turns you into your own enemy. I did not want to die, and no one with depression actually does. Death is an escape from the pain, and seemed, for a while, like the only way out, until I realized what was happening to me and took serious steps to get help.
What someone posted earlier about jumping from a burning building is 100% true. An orthopaedic trauma surgeon i knew took his life a few months ago, he stabbed himself in the chest. He was the chief of ortho trauma at HSS/Cornell Presbyterian. He had young kids. No amount of wealth, power, or love will save you if depression is allowed to take root inside.
And while we are on the subject of the good life, you seem to have a very skewed view of what Ortho actually means. I don’t make a million, and that Mercedes was bought on 80 hrs/week of hard work, which I still very much do.
Oh, and I’m a woman, so the “banging tall models” comment doesn’t apply (not that any male orthopod i know has ever dated models either, they’re all married to doctors, nurses, or teachers).

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

While I agree with your important points, just want to point out (for the record) that your being a woman doesn't negate the idea that you're banging tall models left and right. A) you could still be banging female models B) are male models short???

 

[MSTPlease]

Off the top of my head, there was one more in 2014, jumped off the dorm building.

I think people are lumping together all the NYU schools. 15 years ago the undergrad had 5 people kill themselves in the library in a span of <24 months. It prompted renovations to make it harder to jump.

NYU Does Not Track Suicides

 

[IMApplicant18]

Values are meaningless past a certain point of suffering. Some Christians have a fear of hell that creates a barrier between themselves and suicide, others do not, but given the right circumstances, barriers break. All of your talk of the prefrontal cortex shows a strong misunderstanding of the nature of suicide- it is usually a choice that results in a time of great suffering when your higher level thinking is compromised from sleep deprivation, emotional trauma, hopelessness, or any number of other things. This is why the vast majority of people that survive or are talked down from a suicide attempt do not try to do so again- it was never a well thought out action, it was the result of a temporary state of circumstances and thinking that bypassed their normal protective mechanisms and patterns of thought. To the vast majority of the world that don't live their lives in fear of damnation, they decide in the moment that no longer living is superior to the seemingly oppressive and unending pain before them.

You also don't seem to understand depression. It isn't about social media, relationships, material possessions, or devotion to one's religion. You can have a perfect marriage, career, car, home, bank account, etc and still find yourself in the grip of depression, as it is often biochemical in nature and not circumstantial. It saps the joy from everything you do, like a beast in your mind sucking the brightness from your world without cause or purpose. It takes your energy, and makes you fail to see options that would otherwise be readily apparent. And it makes the hard times feel oh so much worse, and every little setback and inconvenience feel like a serious drain on your already low energy. You may have resources and options, but you can't see them through the mental fog, and even when you catch a glimpse, you're often too drained to gather the strength to set things in motion when you can barely peel yourself out of bed or make yourself breakfast.

Depression isn't just feeling sad. It's feeling drained beyond belief and feeling a world without joy or pleasure when it's bad. It's every food giving you the pleasure of plain oatmeal, the things you used to enjoy feeling as fulfilling as watching a blank screen, the partner you know you love feeling like nothing more than a warm body next to you even though you intellectually know they mean the world to you but it is a feeling you no longer grasp. Your body feels heavy and your energy nonexistent, and basic tasks feel Herculean in nature due to the sheer effort slicing a tomato, paying a bill, or contacting a friend seems to take. Larger tasks feel all but impossible. Joy becomes an unfathomable concept, and even small moments of happiness a distant memory.

You throw all of that at a perfect life and it is, well, miserable. You throw it at someone that is in a life that feels inescapable, such as that of a medical student or resident, and conditions can feel unbearable and unending.

You have obviously experienced depression in your life before...how did you get out of it? Just by taking SSRI?

 

[Mad Jack]

You have obviously experienced depression in your life before...how did you get out of it? Just by taking SSRI?

I had a fairly unusual sort of depression, what would have been called melancholic depression in the past but we now refer to as persistent dysthymic disorder. It's no exaggeration to say that I didn't feel a moment of happiness in my life until I was around 23 years of age, at which point it just kind of went away on its own, possibly due to a seizure I had at the time, oddly enough the last epileptic seizure I ever had (basically ECT'd myself I guess lol). Tried a few different drugs, they did nothing for me, and sometimes actually made things worse. I'm actually fine today, even if I do have rough days here and there like anyone else.

 

[kb1900]

Off the top of my head, there was one more in 2014, jumped off the dorm building.

I think people are lumping together all the NYU schools. 15 years ago the undergrad had 5 people kill themselves in the library in a span of <24 months. It prompted renovations to make it harder to jump.

NYU Does Not Track Suicides

Yes the dorm room jump was 2014 and was an undergraduate. He had taking some hallucinogenic drugs and no one can say for sure what happened on the roof.

There are about 1-4 undergraduate suicides at Nyu per year - partially due to their massive size as a school. But I imagine a lot has to do with the transition to New York, college, person issues etc etc

 

[Mad Jack]

Yes the dorm room jump was 2014 and was an undergraduate. He had taking some hallucinogenic drugs and no one can say for sure what happened on the roof.

There are about 1-4 undergraduate suicides at Nyu per year - partially due to their massive size as a school. But I imagine a lot has to do with the transition to New York, college, person issues etc etc

Actually he was a recent NYU medical graduate, and there is no mention of his being under the influence of any substance that I can find. Also of note to the previous poster that was mentioning "Christian values," he was described as a "good Christian" amongst many other things by one person contributing to his obituary page.

2 MD Interns Jump to Their Death in New York

 

[NRP]

On the topic of depression, has anyone seen physicians discount depression in patients? It seems like in my experience the only type of depression that was taken seriously were those people that were completely wiped by it and couldn't put a smile on. Meanwhile, any patient who was able to talk and hold a conversation was said to not be that depressed by the psychiatrists I worked with. I always found it odd and it certainly doesn't help when assessing others. Is it a stretch to say med students have to show some fakeness on the outside when they're feeling down b/c they're always being evaluated or maybe they're working for a letter. There really isn't a time to show their true depression unless it's in the comfort of their own home. I'm sure this student was able to keep a firm exterior and fooled a lot of people around her. To anyone on the outside she may not have qualified for SIGECAPS but a lot of good that did for her.

 

[siliso]

My opinion of NYC as a uniquely toxic place that kills doctors continues to build. Started when a friend of mine died by suicide within a month of starting internship. RIP, tragic.

No offense intended to natives there. I bet if your family and community and lifelong natural supports are there it wouldn’t necessarily be more toxic than anywhere else. Maybe.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

On the topic of depression, has anyone seen physicians discount depression in patients? It seems like in my experience the only type of depression that was taken seriously were those people that were completely wiped by it and couldn't put a smile on. Meanwhile, any patient who was able to talk and hold a conversation was said to not be that depressed by the psychiatrists I worked with. I always found it odd and it certainly doesn't help when assessing others. Is it a stretch to say med students have to show some fakeness on the outside when they're feeling down b/c they're always being evaluated or maybe they're working for a letter. There really isn't a time to show their true depression unless it's in the comfort of their own home. I'm sure this student was able to keep a firm exterior and fooled a lot of people around her. To anyone on the outside she may not have qualified for SIGECAPS but a lot of good that did for her.

It’s very hard to diagnose depression unless you actually do the sigecaps thing. I was able to function outwardly, even while in the grip of the worst of it, and no one at work knew. But I would go home at night and stare at the wall or cry or just sit listlessly until the time came to go to work again. I have several friends who are psychiatrists and they say that especially with physicians you have to dig deep to uncover it, because we typically try to hide it. So I’m not surprised that you’ve seen someone who dismissed a depression diagnosis because the person didn’t “look” depressed.


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[siliso]

It’s possible to oversimplify depression in both directions. Your environment and behaviors shape your neurochemistry as much as vice versa. Having possessions and titles doesn’t protect you from overwhelming life threatening depression - but a human scaled life in a supportive community can (not absolute protection obviously). The enforced rootlessness of medical training has to be a risk factor, I think.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Not sure if serious or joking but since this is a serious thread...
This “but how can YOU be depressed?” bulls**t is exactly the reason depression is so underdiagnosed. It can strike anybody—rich, poor, happy (robin williams? anyone?), sad, introvert, extrovert. It is an insidious monster that nearly took my life after a traumatic personal event. I never thought it would happen to me. It makes life, even a good life, seem meaningless. It turns you into your own enemy. I did not want to die, and no one with depression actually does. Death is an escape from the pain, and seemed, for a while, like the only way out, until I realized what was happening to me and took serious steps to get help.
What someone posted earlier about jumping from a burning building is 100% true. An orthopaedic trauma surgeon i knew took his life a few months ago, he stabbed himself in the chest. He was the chief of ortho trauma at HSS/Cornell Presbyterian. He had young kids. No amount of wealth, power, or love will save you if depression is allowed to take root inside.
And while we are on the subject of the good life, you seem to have a very skewed view of what Ortho actually means. I don’t make a million, and that Mercedes was bought on 80 hrs/week of hard work, which I still very much do.
Oh, and I’m a woman, so the “banging tall models” comment doesn’t apply (not that any male orthopod i know has ever dated models either, they’re all married to doctors, nurses, or teachers).



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The power of depression, as she wisely put, is that it makes life seemingly not worth living, and in the extreme case, can make people looking for a way out.

It’s a mirror that turns everything ugly and gray even if it’s sunny outside.

 

[Xcar_]

I felt like a mad zombie when I was depressed. It's no joke I didn't know that really existed until I quit the one thing I loved to do and found myself all alone.

If you want to get a feel on how depression is. Imagine jumping down a trash chute or that feeling you get when you go straight down hill on a roller coaster and you're wondering when it's gonna stop.

My doctor looks like a clown and I wonder how many other doctors are dealing with this. Dude is banking for sure but he doesn't look happy nor does he look right.

But I look at my neighbors new husband with a maybach and dude looks like he's care free. But this is only the second Doctor she's married. The first one wasn't working out so well. She upgraded from radiology to ortho. So it just depends.

 

[apoplectic]

“The United States spends significantly more on treating mental disorders than it does on any other medical condition—a whopping $201 billion in 2013. (Heart conditions, for which the U.S. spent $147 billion that year, rank a distant second.) But even with these resources and the tremendous efforts of dedicated scientists and physicians, mental illness remains deeply enigmatic, its causes generally unknown, its cures undiscovered. Despite the overwhelming body of research on mental illness to which new findings are added almost every day, we scientists still don’t understand what happens in the brains of mentally ill people. We don’t really know yet which brain regions and connections are malformed or undeveloped or why the brain goes awry”​

Excerpt From
The Neuroscientist Who Lost Her Mind
Barbara K. Lipska

Values are meaningless past a certain point of suffering. Some Christians have a fear of hell that creates a barrier between themselves and suicide, others do not, but given the right circumstances, barriers break. All of your talk of the prefrontal cortex shows a strong misunderstanding of the nature of suicide- it is usually a choice that results in a time of great suffering when your higher level thinking is compromised from sleep deprivation, emotional trauma, hopelessness, or any number of other things. This is why the vast majority of people that survive or are talked down from a suicide attempt do not try to do so again- it was never a well thought out action, it was the result of a temporary state of circumstances and thinking that bypassed their normal protective mechanisms and patterns of thought. To the vast majority of the world that don't live their lives in fear of damnation, they decide in the moment that no longer living is superior to the seemingly oppressive and unending pain before them.

You also don't seem to understand depression. It isn't about social media, relationships, material possessions, or devotion to one's religion. You can have a perfect marriage, career, car, home, bank account, etc and still find yourself in the grip of depression, as it is often biochemical in nature and not circumstantial. It saps the joy from everything you do, like a beast in your mind sucking the brightness from your world without cause or purpose. It takes your energy, and makes you fail to see options that would otherwise be readily apparent. And it makes the hard times feel oh so much worse, and every little setback and inconvenience feel like a serious drain on your already low energy. You may have resources and options, but you can't see them through the mental fog, and even when you catch a glimpse, you're often too drained to gather the strength to set things in motion when you can barely peel yourself out of bed or make yourself breakfast.

Depression isn't just feeling sad. It's feeling drained beyond belief and feeling a world without joy or pleasure when it's bad. It's every food giving you the pleasure of plain oatmeal, the things you used to enjoy feeling as fulfilling as watching a blank screen, the partner you know you love feeling like nothing more than a warm body next to you even though you intellectually know they mean the world to you but it is a feeling you no longer grasp. Your body feels heavy and your energy nonexistent, and basic tasks feel Herculean in nature due to the sheer effort slicing a tomato, paying a bill, or contacting a friend seems to take. Larger tasks feel all but impossible. Joy becomes an unfathomable concept, and even small moments of happiness a distant memory.

You throw all of that at a perfect life and it is, well, miserable. You throw it at someone that is in a life that feels inescapable, such as that of a medical student or resident, and conditions can feel unbearable and unending.

 

[MSTPlease]

I’m straight and married, so no. No tall models in my life...unless you count me, I suppose. (and yes, before someone else decides to be a smart aleck, i have done modeling in the past.)


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It's 2018. Even being married doesn't automatically mean you're not banging models left and right. At least, that's what they're teaching 1st years when they take sexual histories.