nyu students petitioned against organic chemistry professor and got him fired

[anbuitachi]

Because they thought the class is too hard and it's preventing them from getting into med school. This guy is 84 and has been teaching the same way for years.

At N.Y.U., Students Were Failing Organic Chemistry. Who Was to Blame? (Published 2022)

Maitland Jones Jr., a respected professor, defended his standards. But students started a petition, and the university dismissed him.

www.nytimes.com

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[secretasianman]

When I had ochem with this particular professor in college, the dropout rate after the first midterm was 20-30 percent. After that, a substantial part of the bell curve still failed. For the longest time i would have ochem nightmares.

 

[nimbus]

Obviously the students have changed, not the professor.

 

[Twiggidy]

Organic Chemistry is not easy and it's not supposed to be easy. At many a school it is the "weed out class". I understand the pandemic has made things difficult for students but quite honestly the students just have to put in the effort and also not be a quitter. I know it's now harder to get into medical school than it ever probably has been but it's also a bad look for students to get a professor fired because his test was too hard. If that's not some millennial privilege screaming at us I don't know what is.

 

[D P356]

82 of 350 students aka a quartile didn’t like their grades. Professor didn’t have tenure with year long contracts.

Consistent and lecture concurrent studying was pretty important in medical school. Organic chemistry, like all the pre-requisites, can reveal those that do and do not perform this.

 

[Xman5678]

Sissies.

 

[ucladoc2b]

The professor is 84.

Average exam scores were 20-30% in classes of 350 students at one of the most selective schools in the country.Presumably other professors were not having similar results.

Something’s not right.

Might be time to retire.

 

[IMGASMD]

My first exam the average was 42. I still remember vividly the professor yelling at us, that he didn’t understand how that can happen….. all I can think of is, dude, you’re the teacher, obviously something ain’t working….

I have yet to need to push electrons around after all these years. I hated it.

But I also remember that intro to bio class had at least 300 students with at least half were “pre-med”. By ochem2, there were maybe 50 people left and half of them were chem, biochem major. Yes it works to weed people out. Not everyone gets to be a doctor just because they believed they can.

 

[dannyboy1]

Back in my day I just researched which location had the easiest professor and registered accordingly (we had multiple locations and you could take the class at any of them). Kids these days can’t even put in that effort😉

 

[Coffee PRN]

Back in my day I just researched which location had the easiest professor and registered accordingly (we had multiple locations and you could take the class at any of them). Kids these days can’t even put in that effort😉

At our school some students would take ochem at an easier nearby college over the summer.

 

[anonperson]

Because they thought the class is too hard and it's preventing them from getting into med school. This guy is 84 and has been teaching the same way for years.

At N.Y.U., Students Were Failing Organic Chemistry. Who Was to Blame? (Published 2022)

Maitland Jones Jr., a respected professor, defended his standards. But students started a petition, and the university dismissed him.

www.nytimes.com

It shouldn't be difficult to see if his exams are fair or not.

Why doesn't the dean of the department do an actual investigation and determine if the exams are fair.

It isn't hard.

Board exams and in service exams undergo constant assessment to make sure the questions are testing what they are supposed to.


The students sound whiny and entitled. The article indicates that they were surprised he got fired. Gee, actions have consequences! Who would have thought a non tenured faculty could get fired easily...

It speaks to their lack of insight.

But the thing that irritates me is why didn't the NYTimes put any names to these complaints.

It also doesn't help that they are able to hide behind this anonymity. They should be named and shamed. Have the b@lls to put your name out there if you ended up getting someone fired.

I'll say this, make the tests as easy as you want. Change from grades to pass/fail all you want . Make Step 1 pass/fail.

Patients are only getting sicker/fatter/ more complex. Then these snowflakes will see the real consequences. No real way to make your patient outcomes pass/fail.

 

[Twiggidy]

Well there certainly could be something going on regarding the age of the professor, I'm not 100% sold on him being senile quite yet. Again, it's a hard class, the pandemic certainly didn't help, and maybe they just weren't giving the effort. But also, don't give up after one test. The last person I want in my field is a quitter when the situation gets tough.

The article talks about professors suspecting students of cheating during the pandemic and students, to paraphrase, not focusing or reading the questions. I'm sure there were other teachers and graduate students probably summoned to vet the exams he administered. If something was ridiculously unfair, especially given that usually a TA is grading the tests, I'm sure someone would've spoke up.

The writer of the article does give a little tone of editorializing, but that could be the way I'm interpreting it. It does make give me cause for concern about the future as college becomes more expensive (i think NYU is like 70k) and students will think since they paid so much for the school they should be able to do well and get the future they feel they deserve.

 

[nimbus]

Rankings may play a role in NYU’s decision to fire Prof Jones. USNWR uses 6 year graduation rates as a factor in their rankings. If a bunch of kids have to repeat O Chem or switch majors, that will effect NYU’s graduation rates and their ranking.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Organic Chemistry is not easy and it's not supposed to be easy. At many a school it is the "weed out class". I understand the pandemic has made things difficult for students but quite honestly the students just have to put in the effort and also not be a quitter. I know it's now harder to get into medical school than it ever probably has been but it's also a bad look for students to get a professor fired because his test was too hard. If that's not some millennial privilege screaming at us I don't know what is.

Actually, just Gen Z I believe. This is the entitled group that doesn't do " Hard"

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Rankings may play a role in NYU’s decision to fire Prof Jones. USNWR uses 6 year graduation rates as a factor in their rankings. If a bunch of kids have to repeat O Chem or switch majors, that will effect NYU’s graduation rates and their ranking.

Interesting take on the situation.

 

[epidural man]

My first semester of O-chem I had no idea what was going on. It was so confusing.

I have no idea how I got a B because I literally knew nothing.

Changed colleges and took the second semester. At first, the professor would look at me funny because of my questions and also would ask over and over again, “where do you do your first semester?”

But here is the thing - because of that guy, I learned the material extremely well. It was night and day. That guy knew how to teach.

If you are flunking a large portion of your students; that is a problem. Figure out how to get most of them to understand the material.

Honestly, the way this guy taught it to me - I really thought it was the easiest chem class I ever took - and kinda cool.

But my first semester, I thought it was the hardest thing ever and hated it.

 

[Twiggidy]

My first semester of O-chem I had no idea what was going on. It was so confusing.

I have no idea how I got a B because I literally knew nothing.

Changed colleges and took the second semester. At first, the professor would look at me funny because of my questions and also would ask over and over again, “where do you do your first semester?”

But here is the thing - because of that guy, I learned the material extremely well. It was knight and day. That guy knew how to teach.

If you are flunking a large portion of your students; that is a problem. Figure out how to get most of them to understand the material.

Honestly, the way this guy taught it to me - I really thought it was the easiest chem class I ever took - and kinda cool.

But my first semester, I thought it was the hardest thing ever and hated it.

That's true and I guess I'm being hard on the students. Even as it relates to anesthesia, I remember during my CA-1 year (and probably even somewhat into my CA-2 year) I was having a hard time wrapping my head around Solubility:blood:gas partition coefficient, which showed up on a lot of in-service exams. Some attendings would just treat me like and idiot (maybe I am) but then a couple really broke it down and used in OR examples and then it all clicked. So I agree, a good teacher can make a difference where someone gets a grasp on a subject.

 

[deleted875186]

Honestly organic chemistry is hard for people. But if such a large proportion of students are failing, there is an issue. Maybe firing the professor is too rash, but probably just the easier thing to do for the university to “address” the issue.

 

[anbuitachi]

the problem is the school cared more about their rankings, and their finances than providing decent education! this guy has been teaching for decades. he said he even made the exams EASIER because people were doing so poorly recently, but still were doing poorly. he noticed a difference in habits and studying.

when i was in college decades ago, our organic chemistry average was pretty poor too. but the class was curved, so many of us pre meds actually preferred the average to be low because it makes the curve easier to establish than if the avg was 95. those at the mean, whether if its 30% or something else, gets a B- . Which is only a bit tougher than other pre med classes which curved to a B/B-. i liked it. dont need 1000 people applying to med school from 1 college. i remember my advisor telling us 1000 people start out 'pre med' and only 25% end up applying.

 

[secretasianman]

Grew up in the bay. I remember hearing back then how the premed kids from Stanford would choose to avoid Stanford and take ochem at de anza community college over the summer..

Back in my day I just researched which location had the easiest professor and registered accordingly (we had multiple locations and you could take the class at any of them). Kids these days can’t even put in that effort😉

 

[epidural man]

A somewhat unrelated but I wonder why it is so hard.

What makes some classes just more difficult?

Physics is that way.

 

[aafisahar]

Actually, just Gen Z I believe. This is the entitled group that doesn't do " Hard"

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise​

- Socrates

 

[Twiggidy]

the problem is the school cared more about their rankings, and their finances than providing decent education! this guy has been teaching for decades. he said he even made the exams EASIER because people were doing so poorly recently, but still were doing poorly. he noticed a difference in habits and studying.

when i was in college decades ago, our organic chemistry average was pretty poor too. but the class was curved, so many of us pre meds actually preferred the average to be low because it makes the curve easier to establish than if the avg was 95. those at the mean, whether if its 30% or something else, gets a B- . Which is only a bit tougher than other pre med classes which curved to a B/B-. i liked it. dont need 1000 people applying to med school from 1 college. i remember my advisor telling us 1000 people start out 'pre med' and only 25% end up applying.

Well that’s the urban legend of all the Ivy League schools. My apologies in advanced if any gets offended but the water cooler talk was that “it’s hard to get into Harvard and also hard to fail out of Harvard”

 

[Twiggidy]

A somewhat unrelated but I wonder why it is so hard.

What makes some classes just more difficult?

Physics is that way.

My physics class in college was pretty hard too. This may be where i empathize with the students. I completely understood the concepts but the tests were crazy hard and we also didn’t have great TAs. I also probably wasn’t studying enough ( or at least not enough practice questions) 😉

 

[GravelRider]

There is probably more to the story than is mentioned in the article. Whining about the whippersnapper generation gets clicks, but in reality this is an 82 year old professor who is probably a bit past his prime. I can remember a couple tenured professors who should have been put out to pasture.

 

[IMGASMD]

My physics class in college was pretty hard too. This may be where i empathize with the students. I completely understood the concepts but the tests were crazy hard and we also didn’t have great TAs. I also probably wasn’t studying enough ( or at least not enough practice questions) 😉

I liked my physics class. We had the algebra based vs calculus based…. But i did have a great great physics teacher in high school. That certainly helped.

Our TA, for real was fresh off the boat, Chinese grad student. That was tough, especially in physics lab.

 

[OptionOffense]

Organic Chemistry is not easy and it's not supposed to be easy. At many a school it is the "weed out class". I understand the pandemic has made things difficult for students but quite honestly the students just have to put in the effort and also not be a quitter. I know it's now harder to get into medical school than it ever probably has been but it's also a bad look for students to get a professor fired because his test was too hard. If that's not some millennial privilege screaming at us I don't know what is.

Organic is NOT hard. I thought physics was a lot harder conceptually. The problem with Organic is, too many teachers cannot freakin teach it. I happened to have an all-star PHD chemist guy who also had been doing it years, loved it and was a master at explaining stuff. . Also you have to study A LOT.

 

[Lecithin5]

I’m just disappointed that no one has yet to refer to the class as ‘orgo’!

 

[narcusprince]

When I took Ochem. I studied over the summer the fall syllabus. When I showed up I had already gotten to the second semester on my own. I destroyed the curve routinely getting 100% on the test. That ish required effort. While my friends were partying over the summer I was in the el pomar library studying with all the homeless folks. If your not willing to work hard for it why should it be given to you. Ochem let me know I was ready for the challenge of medical school.

 

[deleted875186]

When I took Ochem. I studied over the summer the fall syllabus. When I showed up I had already gotten to the second semester on my own. I destroyed the curve routinely getting 100% on the test. That ish required effort. While my friends were partying over the summer I was in the el pomar library studying with all the homeless folks. If your not willing to work hard for it why should it be given to you. Ochem let me know I was ready for the challenge of medical school.

Medical school was more work than a college organic chemistry class for sure, although I would venture to say for a lot of people organic chemistry and classical mechanics physics with calculus is more conceptually challenging, some people probably need more coaching and hand holding by a professor or TA to get it.

 

[pgg]

Some college professors just shouldn't be teaching and I'd bet at least $3 there's some merit to the complaints.

I had a physics class where the professor made no secret of his contempt for the premeds who were just there for a grade, and not for the love of the sublime beauty of the thin lens equation. He held office hours during which he gave out "practice" exams that were eerily similar to the actual exams. As in, identical questions, but with different numbers. Of course all three of his weekly office hours just coincidentally happened to be scheduled during the O Chem lecture times. I filed a complaint with the university. Later overheard him ranting about entitled students who didn't want to put in the work, how this generation of students was lazy (this was in the early 90s), and he couldn't believe someone complained to the department about their grade.

I actually had an A in the class, because math was my bag baby, it just irritated me that he gave out exam answers to the non pre-meds.

 

[Test Boy]

Grew up in the bay. I remember hearing back then how the premed kids from Stanford would choose to avoid Stanford and take ochem at de anza community college over the summer..

And I thought grade inflation was rampant at Stanford.

 

[Beeftenderloin]

Organic is NOT hard. I thought physics was a lot harder conceptually. The problem with Organic is, too many teachers cannot freakin teach it. I happened to have an all-star PHD chemist guy who also had been doing it years, loved it and was a master at explaining stuff. . Also you have to study A LOT.

I, like you, felt like organic was not particularly challenging. I personally felt that it made a whole lot more sense and was considerably more straight forward than gen chem. I still studied as much or more in that class than any other, but the concepts just made sense to me.

But saying it’s an easy class is a little disingenuous. It is VERY hard for most folks. It’s like learning a new language, that written in 2D but “spoken” in 3D. A lot of folks have a tough time getting their brains to do the necessary gymnastics to translate what’s happening on paper to what’s happening in the test tube.

That being said I have no sympathy for these gen-x clowns getting a prof fired for making the class too hard.

I had to scratch and claw to get a C in gen chem after getting the flu and effectively not being able to study at all for one of the exams and straight up failing it.

I hope whoever teaches in his stead makes it just as hard.

 

[abolt18]

I really enjoyed Ochem, especially when compared to Gen Chem! I had the "hard" professor. He was a great lecturer but his tests required an excellent understanding of the material and had zero multiple choice questions. Lots of writing and drawing! Also, no curve, but usually had a bonus question or two at the end of the test.

Ochem is the closest I came to med-school level effort in undergrad. Despite enjoying it, I had to put in a ton of hours, while working a full time job. Only took 13-14 credits during Ochem 1 and 2 because the it was so demanding for me.

 

[2Fast2Des]

Yeesh, this current Gen Z culture is destroying the basics. First of all they don't even know how to talk or communicate with people without an electronic device, no work ethic, can't be told no, want the easy way out for everything, etc etc. Their test scores are excellent but have no lick of common sense or street smarts. I'm not old but jeez it infuriates me that parents enable this behavior to allow their children to behave this way. As much as I want to blame children, it's the parents fault for teaching or lack thereof, enabling them to become this way.

Orgo and physics royally sucked, and none of which I apply in any daily work. But yes they absolutely weed out the have nots who have no business being in a much more rigorous schooling like medicine where dropping out when things get tough really isn't going to fly. Just because Mommy and Daddy said their little boy or girl can be a doctor and they're shelling out a kings ransom in tuition doesn't make it okay to pay for the grades you want instead of earning the reflection of the lack knowledge or understanding of the material. There are many resources out there to help learn and supplement like YouTube and Google! Yes every generation complains about the ones younger but this millennial\GenZ are really taking things to new levels of low. I would not be surprised if NYU canned this reputed professor for ranking purposes, sad day for education

 

[Ashers]

I’m just disappointed that no one has yet to refer to the class as ‘orgo’!

HA! My dad still says "orgo." He went to Princeton, and he didn't take it there because it was notoriously one of the hardest premed courses and wasn't required for his degree. So he took it at ASU when he was in the Navy. He also said he still had nightmares about ochem exams. He took it in 68 or 69 I think.

I took it off cycle 1st semester spring/2nd semester fall with a bunch of people who had already failed, so the class was easier. I managed a B because I'd understand one test's material really well and get >100% with extra credit, and then suck at another test that I didn't understand.

In pharm, we had one lecturer who said, "this is the lecture that's the reason you had to suffer through organic chemistry." Then he talked about cis/trans.

Physics... I avoided the calc based physics required by my degree by taking it at summer school at home and saying I needed the lab for med school. I didn't have great physics teachers. In high school, I learned the shopping cart dance, the fishing dance, the sprinkler dance from my physics teacher when he demonstrated them for the class. (Hawai'i public schools...)

 

[dannyboy1]

Yeesh, this current Gen Z culture is destroying the basics. First of all they don't even know how to talk or communicate with people without an electronic device, no work ethic, can't be told no, want the easy way out for everything, etc etc. Their test scores are excellent but have no lick of common sense or street smarts. I'm not old but jeez it infuriates me that parents enable this behavior to allow their children to behave this way. As much as I want to blame children, it's the parents fault for teaching or lack thereof, enabling them to become this way.

Orgo and physics royally sucked, and none of which I apply in any daily work. But yes they absolutely weed out the have nots who have no business being in a much more rigorous schooling like medicine where dropping out when things get tough really isn't going to fly. Just because Mommy and Daddy said their little boy or girl can be a doctor and they're shelling out a kings ransom in tuition doesn't make it okay to pay for the grades you want instead of earning the reflection of the lack knowledge or understanding of the material. There are many resources out there to help learn and supplement like YouTube and Google! Yes every generation complains about the ones younger but this millennial\GenZ are really taking things to new levels of low. I would not be surprised if NYU canned this reputed professor for ranking purposes, sad day for education

To be fair I’m not sure what this “weeding out” process accomplishes. O Chem was significantly more challenging than any course I took in med school (the hardest part of med school is getting in). The practice of medicine is not all that intellectual or challenging. You mainly just need to learn the basics and then get ALOT of experience….

 

[repititionition]

Well that’s the urban legend of all the Ivy League schools. My apologies in advanced if any gets offended but the water cooler talk was that “it’s hard to get into Harvard and also hard to fail out of Harvard”

sure, but the same can be said of med school. Challenging to get in, but nearly impossible to fail out.

 

[Twiggidy]

sure, but the same can be said of med school. Challenging to get in, but nearly impossible to fail out.

100% true. If you can hack the basic science years you will have MD after your name in 4 years. It’s sad to say but the clinical years is basically “show up and don’t kill anyone”

 

[2Fast2Des]

100% true. If you can hack the basic science years you will have MD after your name in 4 years. It’s sad to say but the clinical years is basically “show up and don’t kill anyone”

Well with how neutered med students are these days, there's not much harm they can do... I see most med students standing around in the corner and observing, rounds and in the OR. Gone are the days where med students were able to do as many procedures as the older folks may have. Although in the inner city hospitals probably different story...

 

[deleted1116990]

Some college professors just shouldn't be teaching and I'd bet at least $3 there's some merit to the complaints.

When you look back at college and really think about it, you can identify some really pathologic behavior. As a college student, you didn't have the perspective and just thought it was hard, but as a grown adult with years of work experience you can see that the way some of these professors treated their students was sick. It was clearly a power trip for them over something that didn't really matter and as a 40 year old you could never take them seriously as the concept is just silly, but at age 20 going to school and taking tests was the only world you knew and getting an F was the equivalent of losing half your life savings on a bad business deal. There was those handful of teachers that almost seemed to enjoy ruining students' grades over technicalities (submit a paper online at 12:01 AM instead of 11:59 PM and getting a zero with no exceptions, etc), failing people, having zero compassion over life events, and just in general the way they talked to and patronized students from their academic bubble.

It's an antiquated system that wastes years of young people's lives memorizing things they will just forget and it should surprise no one there is a backlash. Virtually anybody can be trained to do any job without going through the rigid undergraduate-graduate degree system.

 

[Twiggidy]

Virtually anybody can be trained to do any job without going through the rigid undergraduate-graduate degree system.

A good argument could be made that medical training, and probably most professional training, should be separated from the traditional university system, much like the BA-MD programs that linger around, just with more emphasis on the MD part. Will we have doctors who don't know the plot of "Lord of the Flies" and don't what "the key of C minor" means? Sure, but we have a lot of that now (lol) and it could help with a lot of that student loan debt thingy.

 

[anbuitachi]

honestly, for all my pre med classes, bio, chem, org, physics, biochem, i did the exact same thing. which is read the textbook. the times when i did very poorly was mainly in organic chemistry where the teacher decided to test stuff heavily on stuff not in the textbook, but he taught in lecture.
i was very heavy on skipping class and sleeping in. so clearly i bombed those exams. but the other tests i did fine and was always way above the mean.

i noticed that a lot of kids were not studying right. they were just memorizing instead of understanding the concepts which is especially important for bio and chemistry. kids expect teachers to just test problems they went over in class or something, but that doesnt happen. you need to take those knowledge and know how to apply it . it actually requires some thinking. its kind of like advanced math class,

 

[2Fast2Des]

A good argument could be made that medical training, and probably most professional training, should be separated from the traditional university system, much like the BA-MD programs that linger around, just with more emphasis on the MD part. Will we have doctors who don't know the plot of "Lord of the Flies" and don't what "the key of C minor" means? Sure, but we have a lot of that now (lol) and it could help with a lot of that student loan debt thingy.

This is how the MBBS system works in India and other parts of the world as well, high school and then off to medical school. Yes you get the doctors who know nothing about anything except medicine since they don't have the exposure that an undergrad would offer. My parents were of that system and they have no care or value for arts, culture etc

 

[deleted1116990]

My parents were of that system and they have no care or value for arts, culture etc

You don't need to go to college to learn about arts and culture. You can read Dostoevsky on your own for free at the library if you want (presumably you were taught how to read before college). This is especially true in the age of the internet. I would challenge you to find even a single subject that one still must to go to university to learn.

What does college really provide these days? Indoctrination into a certain way of thinking and viewing the world. Namely a very anti-Western civilization narrative. So much for learning how to think. Learn what to think instead.

 

[Hoya11]

honestly, for all my pre med classes, bio, chem, org, physics, biochem, i did the exact same thing. which is read the textbook. the times when i did very poorly was mainly in organic chemistry where the teacher decided to test stuff heavily on stuff not in the textbook, but he taught in lecture.
i was very heavy on skipping class and sleeping in. so clearly i bombed those exams. but the other tests i did fine and was always way above the mean.

i noticed that a lot of kids were not studying right. they were just memorizing instead of understanding the concepts which is especially important for bio and chemistry. kids expect teachers to just test problems they went over in class or something, but that doesnt happen. you need to take those knowledge and know how to apply it . it actually requires some thinking. its kind of like advanced math class,

i had the opposite take. i was a math major and i found that i had to re-learn how to study for the premed classes, meaning just memorize massive amounts of information and regurgitate. nothing at all like the theoretical math IMO. Once i stopped trying to look for deeper meaning in the material and just memorize it, i had much greater success in college and beyond.

studying for a math test would take me an hour or two..
studying for med school and pre med would take me days and weeks of work. there was just no way to reason or problem-solve your way to correct answers in biochemistry or anatomy - you just had to know it in great detail..

 

[IMGASMD]

i had the opposite take. i was a math major and i found that i had to re-learn how to study for the premed classes, meaning just memorize massive amounts of information and regurgitate. nothing at all like the theoretical math IMO. Once i stopped trying to look for deeper meaning in the material and just memorize it, i had much greater success in college and beyond.

studying for a math test would take me an hour or two..
studying for med school and pre med would take me days and weeks of work. there was just no way to reason or problem-solve your way to correct answers in biochemistry or anatomy - you just had to know it in great detail..

Can’t like this enough!

 

[deleted1116990]

i had the opposite take. i was a math major and i found that i had to re-learn how to study for the premed classes, meaning just memorize massive amounts of information and regurgitate. nothing at all like the theoretical math IMO. Once i stopped trying to look for deeper meaning in the material and just memorize it, i had much greater success in college and beyond.

studying for a math test would take me an hour or two..
studying for med school and pre med would take me days and weeks of work. there was just no way to reason or problem-solve your way to correct answers in biochemistry or anatomy - you just had to know it in great detail..

I had the same experience. Doing well in med school and the USMLE to get a good residency was basically like trying to memorize pi to as many decimal points as you could then spit them out at a predefined time. Anybody could do it with enough time and effort, and you quickly forget it all if you aren't constantly reciting it, which is incredibly intellectually unsatisfying and makes it difficult to motivate yourself to go through the effort to begin with.

 

[nimbus]

You don't need to go to college to learn about arts and culture. You can read Dostoevsky on your own for free at the library if you want (presumably you were taught how to read before college). This is especially true in the age of the internet. I would challenge you to find even a single subject that one still must to go to university to learn.

What does college really provide these days? Indoctrination into a certain way of thinking and viewing the world. Namely a very anti-Western civilization narrative. So much for learning how to think. Learn what to think instead.

My brother has 2 brilliant sons. One took calculus in 8th grade and the other in 9th grade. He wants them to attend Ivy’s but he’s also a conservative right winger. I ask him why he’s throwing his kids to the wolves to be indoctrinated. I’m sure they could gain admission to some bible college in Missouri or South Carolina where they would receive a fine education without the liberal indoctrination. We have plenty of choices.

 

[emergentmd]

Sorry but the current Generation of college students are soft and never take responsibility. If my kid was part of the 1/4 that failed, my first question would be, "so most passed, you should have too" and not ,"poor john, it must be the teacher."

Bull crap. We have lost our will to compete and now expect to be floated to the top just.

My kids come home complaining about a bad test grade. My answer is always, "did someone do well" and answer typically is "yes" and then my reply is ,"ok, go work harder".

Your job as a student is to figure out how to do well in a class not be taught the way you like it.

My major was engineering and 2/3 of my classes were taught by TAs who were Asian who you could barely understand. It was my job to learn the subject, its college not middle school.