Obligatory yearly Baylor vs UTSW

[pdidd3]

Hello everyone,

I have received prematch offers to both UTSW and Baylor and need to figure out which one I want to match to. Interested in being a physician scientist. Overall here is my thought process: BCM Houston > UTSW >>>>>> BCM Temple.

Baylor
Pros
- TMC is a beautiful training opportunity
- Houston is a new city for me
- Lots of both clinical and basic science research
- Truely preclinical P/F and mostly clinical P/F
- Baylor is better regarded in the specialty I want to do

Cons
- The chance of matching Temple. It has ZERO wet lab research going on. Sorry to all the Baylor fans but being honest, the Temple campus does not appeal to me what so ever and I would dread 4 years here.


UTSW
Pros
- lots of basic science research

Cons
- Dallas is boring and I dont want to live here anymore
- preclinical is not true P/F due to being used for AOA, and clinical is graded. I really dont like the pressure this will bring.

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[MercifulCamper]

Are you MSTP? If so I thought you automatically get matched to Houston.

Your list is pretty much the breakdown of the pros/cons. They're practically identical in reputation. You gotta choose what's best for you. Personally when I applied, I chose UTSW with pre-matches at both because of my risk aversion of getting placed at Temple.

I would talk to a student at Temple to see how it is. When I applied we were gonna be the first class to go to Temple so there was no reference point. Now there have been two classes there so far. It may not be as bad as you think it is, but I have no clue.

 

[pdidd3]

Are you MSTP? If so I thought you automatically get matched to Houston.

Your list is pretty much the breakdown of the pros/cons. They're practically identical in reputation. You gotta choose what's best for you. Personally when I applied, I chose UTSW with pre-matches at both because of my risk aversion of getting placed at Temple.

I would talk to a student at Temple to see how it is. When I applied we were gonna be the first class to go to Temple so there was no reference point. Now there have been two classes there so far. It may not be as bad as you think it is, but I have no clue.

Not MSTP, just plain MD

 

[oatmeal_27]

have you visited the temple campus? I feel that people are overly critical of it before they even have a chance to visit. remember that the temple med center is also level 1, and that they have almost every home residency program that the houston campus does, including neurosurgery. the BCM temple students are the only med students at temple med center, so they get more personalized attention and the facilities are newly renovated so they look very nice.

I was also in the same boat of UTSW vs Baylor but I do think I would really enjoy Baylor regardless of the campus placement. it’s a personal thing though, but I know I could be successful at either location as long as you take initiative to reach out and network to people.

 

[oatmeal_27]

And I am also very turned off by UTSWs p/f preclinical while also using grades for internal ranking. I do not want to deal with that kind of stress, personally.

 

[pdidd3]

have you visited the temple campus? I feel that people are overly critical of it before they even have a chance to visit. remember that the temple med center is also level, and that they have almost every home residency program that the houston campus does, including neurosurgery. the BCM temple students are the only med students at temple med center, so they get more personalized attention and the facilities are newly renovated so they look very nice.

I was also in the same boat of UTSW vs Baylor but I do think I would really enjoy Baylor regardless of the campus placement. it’s a personal thing though, but I know I could be successful at either location as long as you take initiative to reach out and network to people.

I agree that for most people, Temple is a perfectly fine training site, but there is a problem for me.

There is literally zero basic science research there. Dr Cable has admitted this during interview info sessions. How can a person aspiring to be a physician scientist train at a place with no labs? I don’t see how Baylor will randomly select students into the Temple campus when people like me exist who even pursue Baylor in the first place for strong basic science research.

 

[wysdoc]

if you are unwilling to take the 20% chance of being assigned to Temple, then go to UTSW.

Move to a different part of Dallas if you are so bored with your present location in Dallas. Don’t live at home with your parents.
And don’t worry, your schoolwork will leave you no time to be bored.

 

[oatmeal_27]

I agree with wysdoc that if basic science research is that important to you, maybe you should prioritize ranking UTSW first. I have always thought that it's hard for medical students to participate in basic science research because it's much more time sensitive/intensive than clinical research. Good luck to you wherever you go!

 

[MercifulCamper]

I agree that for most people, Temple is a perfectly fine training site, but there is a problem for me.

There is literally zero basic science research there. Dr Cable has admitted this during interview info sessions. How can a person aspiring to be a physician scientist train at a place with no labs? I don’t see how Baylor will randomly select students into the Temple campus when people like me exist who even pursue Baylor in the first place for strong basic science research.

In Baylor's defense, the MD program is not designed to train basic science, physician scientists. It's designed to train MDs who 99% of the time go on to become clinicians. The MSTP program is designed for what you want and they have realized that Temple is not the place for MSTP students. It seems that you are dead set on becoming a basic science, physician scientist. Why not MSTP then?

Regardless, in this scenario it seems that Baylor has a 20% chance of preventing you from pursuing your path during medical school. They don't give preference for your desire to do basic science research in the campus match. It seems that UTSW may be preferential because it ensures that you have access to those lab opportunities, but it comes with all the other cons.

However, I do wonder if you realize how little time there actually is to do proper basic science research within the medical school curriculum. Its really quite difficult. The only time you get to really focus on it would be during a summer (2 months which is like enough time to optimize an assay lol), a gap year, and maybe for some schools that do 1 year preclinical during that research year. You could squeeze in a few hours a week during preclerkship but during clerkships and Sub I's there is literally no time to do consistent bench work. There are exceptions like Stanford Med that literally design their curriculum around the idea of students just doing an MD and pursuing basic science (split curriculum/PSTP), but Baylor and UTSW don't have that focus in their MD program. Just wanted to put that out there and you should really put a lot of thought into the practicality of what you want to do at either of these schools outside of the MSTP program.

 

[pdidd3]

In Baylor's defense, the MD program is not designed to train basic science, physician scientists. It's designed to train MDs who 99% of the time go on to become clinicians. The MSTP program is designed for what you want and they have realized that Temple is not the place for MSTP students. It seems that you are dead set on becoming a basic science, physician scientist. Why not MSTP then?

Regardless, in this scenario it seems that Baylor has a 20% chance of preventing you from pursuing your path during medical school. They don't give preference for your desire to do basic science research in the campus match. It seems that UTSW may be preferential because it ensures that you have access to those lab opportunities, but it comes with all the other cons.

However, I do wonder if you realize how little time there actually is to do proper basic science research within the medical school curriculum. Its really quite difficult. The only time you get to really focus on it would be during a summer (2 months which is like enough time to optimize an assay lol), a gap year, and maybe for some schools that do 1 year preclinical during that research year. You could squeeze in a few hours a week during preclerkship but during clerkships and Sub I's there is literally no time to do consistent bench work. There are exceptions like Stanford Med that literally design their curriculum around the idea of students just doing an MD and pursuing basic science (split curriculum/PSTP), but Baylor and UTSW don't have that focus in their MD program. Just wanted to put that out there and you should really put a lot of thought into the practicality of what you want to do at either of these schools outside of the MSTP program.

I understand the sentiment, but it’s possible with the right mentors, project, and a gap year or two. Which is also why the P/F of Baylor appeals to me so much. It’s also not unheard of to switch into MSTP. I also wrote and spoke about my aspirations explicitly in my PS/interviews and still got the prematch so adcoms and interviewers don’t think I’m delusional. I suspect the campus selection is not truly random bc it’s in Baylors interest to protect their yield by sending research heavy accepted students to Houston.

Right now I’m leaning towards taking the TMDSAS 80/20 lottery and hoping I land in the 80% or a good OOS institution. Feeling lucky, but we will see in a couple months…

 

[MercifulCamper]

I understand the sentiment, but it’s possible with the right mentors, project, and a gap year or two. Which is also why the P/F of Baylor appeals to me so much. It’s also not unheard of to switch into MSTP. I also wrote and spoke about my aspirations explicitly in my PS/interviews and still got the prematch so adcoms and interviewers don’t think I’m delusional. I suspect the campus selection is not truly random bc it’s in Baylors interest to protect their yield by sending research heavy accepted students to Houston.

Right now I’m leaning towards taking the TMDSAS 80/20 lottery and hoping I land in the 80% or a good OOS institution. Feeling lucky, but we will see in a couple months…

Yes you are correct its not impossible, just very difficult. I don't think you are delusional - I just want to give you a word of caution. Switching to MSTP is not unheard of, but I imagine if you were placed at Temple it may make it an impossibility because of the logistical problems it could pose.

Still seems pretty risky to play dice since you seem dead set on this track. While the campus selection may not be truly random (I really don't know), I would guess that Baylor is not worried about their yield if one basic science-oriented MD student gets placed in Temple because odds are that the vast majority of basic science-oriented MD students will just end up doing clinical research even if they were in Houston.

Many in my class including myself at another school (with massive NIH funding) were basic science oriented before med school but of us basic science oriented med students I think only one of us is still doing basic science research in med school. All the rest of us are doing other forms of clinical/epi/quality improvement research because its just hard to do as a med student. Baylor knows this is the trend and that in the virtual world we are in no matter where you get placed (Temple or Houston) you can still get access to those non basic science research opportunities.


Ok well I've given you my two cents. Best of luck with your decision. I hope it all works out for you.

 

[Avatararrow]

Seems like people are leaning mainly Baylor unless basic science research is a deal breaker so I’ll give me 2 cents

While Baylor seems really snazzy with true P/F, keep in mind you’re still internally graded and ranked for clerkships, since AOA at Baylor is based on EC’s, shelfs, and clerkship grades/evals.

I personally think UTSW is better if you want to maximize your chance of matching into competitive residency. I personally don’t like having P/F clerkships because most other schools aren’t P/F for clerks. So that means residency programs have less to scrutinize you with. If you had 2 identical students in EC’s, etc, one from UTSW, one from Baylor, if the UTSW kid has good clerkship grades it’s gonna help them out a little more.

I also personally think that UTSW is very motivated to improve, and you get more small group interaction there. Also while literally everyone on this planet talks about the TMC, I think it’s a little overhyped. Parkland and clemmonts hospital are also places you will see zebra cases just due to the population. Personally, I would focus more on TMC as a factor for residency. And speaking of residency, UTSW has god tier in house residency programs, so if you play your connections right, you could be set up for success.


I could be very wrong though lol, I’m just an anime fanboy

 

[Kracin]

Chose BCM over UTSW. Now I’m in residency, still very happy with my choice for medical school.

 

[txapp913945]

Chose BCM over UTSW, and could not be happier with my decision. Extremely low stress (2 attempts on tests??!) and incredibly supportive class. Both are incredible institutions.

 

[oatmeal_27]

I am not sure if this will help your decision, but I spoke to current students at UTSW who mentioned that the system for determining AOA involves several factors, including research, leadership, etc. Grades are considered but it is a small portion and apparently people have gotten AOA even without having the top grades in their class. Since you mentioned prematching to UTSW, I recommend doing their accepted students campus tour.