OB's thoughts on doulas

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fiatslug

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I'm a pregnant PGY2 in psychiatry. I post sometimes on boards for moms-to-be, and am amazed at the amount of vitriol and bad information passed around about OBs there--there seems to be a veneration of anything "natural," and concommitant demonization of all things medical as relates to childbirth. So I'm curious to know your thoughts on doulas (and by "your" I mean OB GYNs)--are they a help or a hindrance, your experience with good ones and scary ones, the oft-maligned birth plan, etc. Do you like working with them? Does their presence scream "high maintenance mommy"?

Just curious!

Slug out.
 
fiatslug said:
I'm a pregnant PGY2 in psychiatry. I post sometimes on boards for moms-to-be, and am amazed at the amount of vitriol and bad information passed around about OBs there--there seems to be a veneration of anything "natural," and concommitant demonization of all things medical as relates to childbirth. So I'm curious to know your thoughts on doulas (and by "your" I mean OB GYNs)--are they a help or a hindrance, your experience with good ones and scary ones, the oft-maligned birth plan, etc. Do you like working with them? Does their presence scream "high maintenance mommy"?

Just curious!

Slug out.

I don't have a problem with doulas, though I don't know how much they "help" and I know I certain didn't want people hanging around me too much when I was in labor myself.

Birth plans, however, are a joke. It seems that the longer the birth plan, the more likely we'll go to c-section. The likelihood also increases with anyone in healthcare (or related to someone that is) or anyone with a blood type of B+. Don't ask why. And don't use purple marker on the L&D chalkboard, FYI, it's bad luck.

That aside, most people want a more "natural" childbirth, even if they desire an epidural. For most this means avoiding a c/s. I guess I have some issues sometimes with pts who don't want monitoring, don't want an IV, don't want any augmentation etc., but the minute anything would go wrong would be suing my a** immediately. It's a fine line, but 73% of OBs are sued at one time in their practice of medicine, so it can't help but dictate some of the care (and intervention) received.

Trillgirl
 
Trillgirl said:
Birth plans, however, are a joke. It seems that the longer the birth plan, the more likely we'll go to c-section. The likelihood also increases with anyone in healthcare (or related to someone that is) or anyone with a blood type of B+. Don't ask why.
Trillgirl

I agree with Trillgirl about the birth plan. I've seen some rediculous ones - including a laminated, double sided midwife patient's with the most rediculous things written on it (including only wanting LOCAL anesthesia if a c-section was necessary-let's just say we talked her into the SPINAL when it came time to do her c-section). Just let things happen! Most people who make these rediculous things have no idea how labor works or what's actually important in the situation.

And I have also noticed that being in healthcare is an independent risk factor for problems. We've had some of the craziest things happen to our own pregnant nurses or wives of other residents...I was actually thinking of doing my research on it to see if it is truly a risk!
 
I'm a doula (premed for OB/GYN), does anyone mind if I chime in?

I've had mixed reception from OBs, mainly because there are doulas out there who teach their clients to not listen to their doctors, who do clinical tasks (one of my MAJOR pet peeves about my profession) without any training, who set up an adversarial energy in the room where the doctor has to almost defend their recommendations to the patient. I've had my clients look straight at me after their doctor recommends an intervention and ask me what I think. 😕 Um... way to a) put the doc on the defensive, b) make me look like I'm doing something I absolutely am NOT, c) alienate everyone from each other and d) put a totally funky energy in the room.

I don't encourage birth plans anymore either. A lot of what women around here ask for is what they'd get anyway. No shaving, no enemas, movement in labor, no continuous EFM, etc. I agree (having been one of 'those' moms with the 2 page, 10pt type, single space birth plan) that the more detailed and hardline the birth plan is (written or not), the more intervention is likely. I hear that Bradley Method moms either go natural or have cesareans. 🙄 One thing that makes me crazy is doulas who tell their clients that the OB should sign the birth plan! WTF?!

I started teaching Birthing From Within which emphasises not being outcome focused, rather coping in the moment with what is going on. I find this to be a much better preparation for working with a doc you may not have met, or dealing with surprise situations or unwanted interventions or whatever.

It's never my place to tell my client her doctor is wrong, only to offer her options. If my client tells me she wants an unmedicated 'home' birth in a hospital setting I encourage her to talk to a midwife. Find out ALL of your options, and make a decision. But I NEVER tell her what the right thing is for her, and I would never ever tell her that her doctor was wrong or screwing her over or whatever (even though I have seen behavior in the L&D for which there was absolutely no excuse, on any level.)
 
Doula-2-OB said:
I'm a doula (premed for OB/GYN), does anyone mind if I chime in?

Brava for a reasonable, well-thought-out, cogent and salient post from a provider that is not a doc on SDN that is NOT doc-bashing and MFing the profession to support an individual agenda. Although not unique, your post is rare enough to merit a mention. Good luck with your career path!
 
fiatslug said:
I'm a pregnant PGY2 in psychiatry. I post sometimes on boards for moms-to-be, and am amazed at the amount of vitriol and bad information passed around about OBs there--there seems to be a veneration of anything "natural," and concommitant demonization of all things medical as relates to childbirth. So I'm curious to know your thoughts on doulas (and by "your" I mean OB GYNs)--are they a help or a hindrance, your experience with good ones and scary ones, the oft-maligned birth plan, etc. Do you like working with them? Does their presence scream "high maintenance mommy"?

Just curious!

Slug out.


Slug,

there is a lot of bad information being passed around about OBs on the mommy- bulletein boards.. Ironically, one of my childhood friends is very much an advocate of this movement....she had her first baby at home (not planned but a midwife did get there in time) and is planning her second home birth (due in september) this involves .. having the baby on her bed-- and alternating between bathtub and bed .. no ivs/ no epidural .... there seems to be a great desire for a natural process .. no c-section. but really -- who wants a c-section?

i think part of the cause of the movement is the in-exact science of ob (and medicine in general) .... we can't always prove a c-section that we do is necessary -- but we can prove that we will be sued if we were to get a bad outcome for not doing the c-section. my friend still doesn't want a c-section to be done just b/c outcome can't be predicted and I don't want to be sued.

the second very important problem/cause of this movement is: BEDSIDE MANNER. a lot of obs are used to multi-tasking and seeing several patients back to back and just don't give their patients the time of day. have you seen how fast most ob clinics run? the patient waits forever -- first outside in the real waiting room, then in the hidden waiting room (acutal patient room) it's like a mad-house. and i'm sure when I start my intern year--my clinic will (unfortuantley) run just as quickly... b/c there just are that many patients to be seen. but it doesn't always give the patient that sense of well being -- that their doctor cares about them. and this is a huge event in their life-- even though we see it every day -- and so -- I see it through their eyes as well.
she want to use a certain breathing method (the bradley method), her obs said she coudln't. at some point it seems mom feels she has lost all control over her body and her rights and her baby. so why not let her go to her bradley classes? i did an away rotation -- where the attending honored birthing plans.. he told every women "ok" bring your plan -- we will follow it .. completly until the point where I think your health or babys health is endangered. at that point, we will follow my plan. no mom ever disagreed with that. not only that, but every mom thought we were following their birht plan -- which we did try to respect as far as possible. you know?

I think both sides have valid points. ... and my friend who is having her natural child birth/ no epidural at home // on her bed .. alternating between bed and bathtub.. with her midwife present -- assures me that at the first sign of trouble -- she will be taken to a labor and delivery suite... but i still worry about her.

on the other hand, when she tried to get an u/s at 20 weeks -- no doctor in her small town (of about 60,000) would take her b/c she told them she was planning on doing a home birth. so she had to drive to another town and pay out of pocket to get an ultrasound. so there is where the attitudes conflict ... and fuel the hatred both sides seem to have for each other.

snow
 
Hi Fiatslug!
First of all, congrats on your pregnancy. I've worked with some wonderful doulas, who were really helpful both in the labor and the delivery. As a nurse in L&D, having a good doula really saved me a few nights, when I didn't have to be as up-close-and-personal with some patients (great on a busy night). The ones I liked the best were pretty laid back, there to help with the psych support and pain control. They weren't militant. I've never had a patient ask their doula if they thought they should do what the doctor said, sounds like it would be pretty darn awkward!
Now, I personally don't like the bradley method... I've never seen a successful bradley birth in my years of nursing and now med school... every one has ended in section at the end of a really exhausted day. I've never really understood the point of the moaning and groaning. It really seems to wear the mom out faster (and gets staff's nerves on edge too). The birth plans are workable if they are realistic. You should talk to your OB prior to coming into the hospital about it, and listen to what they say will be possible and what won't be. If you don't want monitoring, you should realize that usually means listening every 15 minutes for a few minutes - so it's really more of a hassle than the continuous monitoring. I can't tell you how many birth plans I've seen say - no IV - well, on my unit, laboring you might get by with a heplock, but IV access is important.
Home births scare me to death. On the receiving end of several home birthing attempt disasters, I couldn't imagine ever considering it. The most frustrating part was the anger expressed towards the hospital staff who are trying to make the most of a really difficult situation. I understand it's not what the family was wanting or expecting, but its really not my fault that your lay midwife had you pushing for 7 hours with a 4 cm cervix (true story!) before you gave up and came to my hospital for help. A close friend who's been a L&D nurse for several years relayed a story about a neighbor waking her in the middle of the night at home to come over because they were having a home delivery of their 5th kid (all 4 other kids surrounding the bed watching) and the baby was born with some significant facial abnormalities - don't remember if it was a cleft palate/lip combo plus small jaw or what - but they couldn't get an airway on the baby and remembered that she worked at the hospital. Talk about a bad situation - I think she did CPR until EMS got there, but I don't think the kid made it... with a deformity that could be easily managed in a hospital setting with an ETT readily available. Scary stuff happens out there. I've seen a lay midwife labor a grand multip, AMA, VBAC at home... nearly needed a court order to get her to consent for a c/s.
Sorry for the long post. I'm wordy when I'm tired. 🙂
 
tiredmom said:
Hi Fiatslug!

hey tired mom,

yeah when I actually asked my friend if she used the bradley method --
she said during her first child she was completly silent and didnt' scream at all. (for the most part) .. even if she didn't quite use it in labor -- -she still had the choice. (no one told her not to .. or that it is a bad method, etc) cuz it does sound good in theory. .. and ppl react so many different ways..once they are acutally in labor some are silent, some groan/scream .. so it's hard to predict. (my favorite is the ones who say no i'm not going to push - make it stop-- that will probraly be me.. as funny as I think that response is).

reading your stories ... made me fear more for my friend. but, there wil continue to be more ppl like her .. if we, as obs, don't adjust some of our ways.. (better bedside manner, more open-mindedness) .. learning to allow the patient to have some control.. and taking hte control back when we need it, .. maybe I should say .. learning to give the illusion of control .. while maintaining control the entire time.. either way....

take care,
snow
 
thanks for all the replies. I remember, on my OB rotation, asking the female residents what they would want for their birth. Without hesitation, they all said they would choose elective c/s, because of concerns about pelvic floor repair later on. That made a pretty strong impression on me. My OB is open to elective c/s, in part b/c she does a lot of pelvic floor repair surgeries. Another OB friend (2nd yr resident) warned about risk of future abruption, DIC, etc with c/s... can't I just get a zipper installed?

Home births scare the bejesus out of me! (VERY scary story about the midwife encouraging pushing for 7 hrs at 4 cm... good lord!) I'm sure they are lovely when everything goes right, but I want to be near an OR and a NICU for the small chance that things go wrong.


Did some research on PubMed about pregnancy in residency & outcome. Some studies show increased risk of PTL, some don't note much difference. But it does seem like a lot of the medicine residents at my hospital had serious complications/needed bedrest, etc. But then, they work a lot harder than psychiatrists. 😉 I might beg for a little forced bedrest!
 
Snow -
Maybe my personal view is skewed because the only "Bradley's" I've known were the ones who came in announcing it to everyone and everything and acting like we were waiting the the station to run in and drug them whenever they weren't looking??? They really made a whole lot of noise... acutally had to move a laboring teenager who got the bejesus scared out of her listening to the moaning/yelling from the room next door. Sorry for the horror stories about the home births... I would think CNMs would have more sense than the lay midwives, with the better training and a license on the line... but from back home, none of the CNMs did home births, only lay midwives. Had some giving dandylion root for gestational diabetes 😕 but didn't feel the need to estimate size (of the 13 lb kid).
I agree with you completely about being open in deliveries and in practice. It's not my job to tell my patients philosophies of labor and pain control... if they want advice, I'll gladly help. I've never liked the pushing nazi style of loudly counting for the patient. But some patients need more guidance than others. I don't care what happens, as long as everybody is safe in the end.
Good luck to your friend. Say lots of prayers!
 
This journey is going to be so weird for me.

I've been working in birth for four years now and have attended home, hospital and birth center births, VBAC, cesarean (planned and otherwise), unmedicated, inductions, Pre-E, etc. I've seen a shoulder dystocia (there's a photo of it on ShoulderDystociainfo.com!) and a baby come out with an Apgar of 1, I've certified in NNR to practice as a midwifery assistant (that never worked out).

From my perspective, the doula, the woman's support person, it has always been difficult to navigate the "allow" the patient to do ____ mindset. I've always taught women that they have a right to have all of their questions answered (barring an emergency, of course) before consenting.

Just tonight I was on a mothering board where she was saying that she was going to be birthing in a hospital, and that she was worried that her doctor wouldn't *let her* get out of bed, or *let her* not have an IV, *let her* eat, etc.

Pregnant women are not sick, birthing women are not manifesting the product of a 10 month illness. Surely, we all know that emergencies happen and I'm not saying anything about that- but there is a LOT of humanity missing from the process of hospital birth, even with the nurse/doctor's best intentions. The *process* does not allow for normal birth. No animal that I know of births better when being interrupted every hour, being limited to one position in the bed, disallowed food and water, and strapped down with monitors. I'm not saying these things don't have validity, I'm saying that to require EVERY woman to undergo these things causes (in my estimation) to cause more problems than it prevents. The Freudian curve... if my docs had kept to that I would never have had vaginal births. Why not -? Because of some scale. Like the 28 day cycle.... 🙄 I was talking with my OB (a man I respect very much even if we do disagree sometimes) about NPO in labor and how archaic a thought that is. He argued that '1-2 women a year DIE from aspiration because of eating in labor, it is absolutely valid' ... to deny thousands and thousands of women food during one of the most physical events of their lives... to save one or two women? Does it really save them? No one's pumping the stomachs of laboring women so how worried are they, really? And why are we giving Cytotec which has much higher risks than eating in labor, if we're that worried about protecting 1-2 women a year? I know, I know... I digress. 😉

I can't wait to finish school and teach women about their cycles, how to chart their fertility so that they can be educated about their bodies and partners in their care, and not submissive to my diagnoses and decisions. I know some (most) women want that, but I want to contribute to change. Don't piss on my idealism, let me have it for a while. 😉

I see so many holes as a doula, as a woman, as a premed student, in obstetric care. I see incredible, inspiring, caring doctors who are limited by the routines of the hospital. I see frightening care about which no one does anything. I have seen terrible abuses of women, women treated like meat, like dolls upon which to teach and experiment. I have seen profound generosity and respect in the most dire situations and it inspires me that I might be able to do the same for my clients.

I come into OB/GYN not to learn to care for women. I come into it caring for them. I come into it to learn how to care for them in a different way, to bring my experiences, and my background into the field. I look at other specialties and I think, is there another I would want to do? I don't know of any others that I (at this time) am even remotely interested in.

I've heard that OB's either have elective cesareans or homebirths. LOL I don't know how true that is, but we are currently TTC and I am hoping for a homebirth this time around, but planning for a hospital birth. Once I'm pregnant I'm going to talk with the hospital about getting a birthing tub in my room (won't birth in water there, no one is trained and I feel like that's just too much to ask) to labor in. I'm not afraid to fight for what I want. I'm willing to hear "No", and I'm tenacious enough to keep going.

I know these issues (every single one mentioned here) are far more complex than anything I've experienced and I respect the balance beam that physicians must walk between their patient wishes, their opinions about what is best in the individual situation, and what they must to to protect themselves, which sadly weighs as heavily as the other two issues in patient care, from what I have seen and heard from my physician friends.

I would never tell my clients to argue with their doctors. I have heard doulas tell their clients to have their OB sign their birth plans. ?? I don't get it, and I always call doulas to the mat about it. The power dynamic should not be fiddled with at 39 weeks. If you don't like your care, find another provider, but don't start pissing in the corners to get what you want when birth is relatively imminent. It's just not the time. Women should be taught about birth far before they are close to it so that they have time to research and learn, discuss with their docs what they want and what they need in their situation.

Maternity care in this country is SO sucky. *sigh* It's not women centered, it's not baby centered- it's completely about *health*, and it devalues the *experience*. I'm tired of hearing from docs that 'at least your baby was healthy', or that a 'good' out come is one where everyone's alive. What about when mom goes home with severe PPD and breastfeeding fails and her family falls apart? It's not an exaggeration. What about when care providers forget that the patients are human beings who have a right to decline your hand in her vagina, thank you very much, and shove it in there anyway? What about the doctor who stuck his finger in my client's rectum after reparing her 4th degree episiotomy and never said a word to her, to warn her, to tell her why... He touched her in a place not even her LOVERS had and never said a word. Stuff like this... it's the subtle things. It's the little things that make a good outcome. Even if the birth goes nothing like what was planned or hoped for- little things like a compassionate touch, talking to the patients instead of over them, avoiding the "if you're going to get your epidural now is the time to do it" sort of language that undercuts a woman's strength. Not standing against the wall with your arms folded, or over her as she labors in the bed.

Bah! Some of these are such pet peeves for me. LOL

Wow, I don't know where all that came from.
 
Doula-2-OB said:
This journey is going to be so weird for me.

Doula-2-OB,

I think your post was very interesting -- I enjoy reading your thoughts/experience. please keep on posting.

I just thought of an interesting question though -- and I think I know the answer.. but what is the malpractice lawsuit rate for midwives .. or even Doulas?

I'd be interested to know. In med school, they emphasize that if you have a good relationship with your patient that greatly decreases your chances of being sued. Still, I am sure it is difficult to have a very close relationship with your patient when you have so many.

anyway -- keep us posted on your thoughts on things as you continue through the process... (pre-med, medschool, etc) and good luck to you!!

snow
 
This has been an interesting thread.

I gave birth to a 9 pounder a few years ago. I delivered with a midwife- and I am pretty convinced that if I had an ob, I would have had an episiotomy. With my midwife, I had a first degree tear for a nine pounder- not bad, I think.

Anyway, the only part of my birth plan was to have an epidural. It was important to me that the first birth experience to be tolerable- so that I would want more children. 🙂

But I did have my fair share of ridiculous thoughts, and did ridiculous things. It cracks me up that women write on their birth plans: I want to eat. Please do not starve me...etc. I ate a banana at the beginning of my contractions, and proceeded to vomit it all up within five minutes. The GI system really shuts down!

I did not have a doula. I have a friend who did use a doula. BTW, doula means "slave" in whatever original language the word came from. My friend felt she should have gone to the hospital earlier, but the doula discouraged her. So much so that by the time they finally left, her husband was in such a panic, they got lost on the way...even though they had driven the route hundreds of times. They were SO lost, that they called 911, and the ambulance met them at the intersection, put her in the ambulance, her husband and doula following in the car. She delivered within 10 minutes after getting to the hospital. She is due again in about three months- she is not using a doula this time around.
 
For every bad doula story I hear (and I hear several, unfortunately) I have a 'bad doc' story. LOL The professions have their bad apples, unfortunately. The psycho OB behavior I've seen is a large reason why many women choose midwives, which isn't always a better alternative.

Too many holes... not enough qualified, quality people to fill them.


outofhere said:
I did not have a doula. I have a friend who did use a doula. BTW, doula means "slave" in whatever original language the word came from. My friend felt she should have gone to the hospital earlier, but the doula discouraged her. So much so that by the time they finally left, her husband was in such a panic, they got lost on the way...even though they had driven the route hundreds of times. They were SO lost, that they called 911, and the ambulance met them at the intersection, put her in the ambulance, her husband and doula following in the car. She delivered within 10 minutes after getting to the hospital. She is due again in about three months- she is not using a doula this time around.
 
Doula-2-OB said:
For every bad doula story I hear (and I hear several, unfortunately) I have a 'bad doc' story. LOL

Of course.

I guess no one writes about the good experiences doulas provide...
 
BTW, how much laundry does a home birth produce? I created so much dirty linens when I delivered that it filled up two of the hospital sized dirty linen bins.
 
Doula-2-OB said:
What about the doctor who stuck his finger in my client's rectum after reparing her 4th degree episiotomy and never said a word to her, to warn her, to tell her why... He touched her in a place not even her LOVERS had and never said a word. Stuff like this... it's the subtle things.

Although I am not an OB/GYN, I can tell you from my OB/GYN and surgery rotations that ABSOLUTELY no surgeon is going to leave a job only partially finished. 4th degree episiotomies go into the rectum/rectal sphincter. I seriously doubt that any OB or any other surgeon would repair this without checking to see if it was patent/sutured correctly/without fistulas/etc., afterward (yes, by sticking their finger into the anus!).
Also, in the middle of a procedure, you do not stop and ask your patient, "Is it okay if I check to make sure I did this correctly? Or, "Can I finish the second half of the procedure or would you prefer it if I left a huge hole in your rectum because it is inside you and I cannot see it thus need to feel with my finger?" NO ONE does that. It is in the consent papers. So of course he didn't ask her. He was finishing his work because it was what the procedure called for, what he should do ethically, and what to do in order not to get sued for an abscess, fistula, or anal incontinence afterward. Duh.
 
megsMS said:
Although I am not an OB/GYN, I can tell you from my OB/GYN and surgery rotations that ABSOLUTELY no surgeon is going to leave a job only partially finished. 4th degree episiotomies go into the rectum/rectal sphincter. I seriously doubt that any OB or any other surgeon would repair this without checking to see if it was patent/sutured correctly/without fistulas/etc., afterward (yes, by sticking their finger into the anus!).
Also, in the middle of a procedure, you do not stop and ask your patient, "Is it okay if I check to make sure I did this correctly? Or, "Can I finish the second half of the procedure or would you prefer it if I left a huge hole in your rectum because it is inside you and I cannot see it thus need to feel with my finger?" NO ONE does that. It is in the consent papers. So of course he didn't ask her. He was finishing his work because it was what the procedure called for, what he should do ethically, and what to do in order not to get sued for an abscess, fistula, or anal incontinence afterward. Duh.

My interpretation of Doula-2-OB's post is different. In my understanding, it isn't the fact that the OB stuck his finger in the patient's anus that is an issue. It is the fact that s/he did it without warning her. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a patient would want to know that is going to happen. Yes, the doctor was going to do it anyway - it's not so much about asking permission as just giving the patient a head's up.
 
megsMS said:
Also, in the middle of a procedure, you do not stop and ask your patient, "Is it okay if I check to make sure I did this correctly? Or, "Can I finish the second half of the procedure or would you prefer it if I left a huge hole in your rectum because it is inside you and I cannot see it thus need to feel with my finger?" NO ONE does that. It is in the consent papers. So of course he didn't ask her. He was finishing his work because it was what the procedure called for, what he should do ethically, and what to do in order not to get sued for an abscess, fistula, or anal incontinence afterward. Duh.

Someone should start.

This makes me mad because your comment suggests that you finishing the procedure can not be done respecting her HUMANITY. It takes a second to say, "I have to check the rectum to ensure proper repair. This might be uncomfortable but you can just use the breathing techniques that got you this far. You're doing great. Deep breath..." What is so hard about that?

So f-ing-what if is in the consent papers. SHE IS A HUMAN BEING. She is not comatose, it literally takes 20 seconds to give information, to give warning, to honor that this is her *body*, this is the most intimate part of her that quite possibly no one else has ever touched. It's humiliating enough to have to have the procedure done at all, why humilate her further by sticking your finger up her butt (which to her, it's her butt, not her rectum) without even a word of explanation? Come on now. I can't think of a single justification for that.

When I must do these repairs I will *absolutely* inform my patients of what I am about to do, and why, whenever possible. I never said he shouldn't have performed the exam. I'm saying he should have given her warning. She had just had a 90 second shoulder dystocia, had her baby taken away from her, a nurse cooing and talking to her son (first apgar was 8, btw), and a doctor who walks in after the fact, sits down and starts stitching, with a med student in tow. The nurse is running around like a chicken with her head cut off to other floors because the fentanyl isn't adequate for pain relief and this doc is bitching because he doesn't have enough 4x4s, which I offered to grab for him (they were closed, and literally on a table 5 feet away). There was no excuse for his behavior, I'm sorry. He did a beautiful job of stitching her and took his time, and was professional in *that* respect, but as a *care* provider he was an ass.

Women deserve better than that.

My interpretation of Doula-2-OB's post is different. In my understanding, it isn't the fact that the OB stuck his finger in the patient's anus that is an issue. It is the fact that s/he did it without warning her. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a patient would want to know that is going to happen. Yes, the doctor was going to do it anyway - it's not so much about asking permission as just giving the patient a head's up.

Precisely.
 
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