off the times front page "Long Slog for Foreign Doctors to Practice in US"

[PrideNeverDie]

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i talked about affirmative action to remind the posters who accused FMG/Caribs of buying their MDs that not all of our med school admissions were based on merit.

are we really in a position to judge other countries when our med schools use openly racist admission policies?

a good implementation of affirmative action would have applicants being forced to practice primary care for 4-5 years in a minority community

 

[notbobtrustme]

i talked about affirmative action to remind the posters who accused FMG/Caribs of buying their MDs that not all of our med school admissions were based on merit.

Nothing in life is based on merit alone. Just about everyone on this board started on 3rd base in the grand scheme of things. We had access to stable homes, stable educations, all the perks of modern living, and access to high quality instructors/materials/institutions. That we made it to home base is no surprise.

 

[PrideNeverDie]

Nothing in life is based on merit alone. Just about everyone on this board started on 3rd base in the grand scheme of things. We had access to stable homes, stable educations, all the perks of modern living, and access to high quality instructors/materials/institutions. That we made it to home base is no surprise.

there are a lot of counter points i can make, but i don't want to derail the thread so lets end it with your response

back to FMG/IMGs!

time to buy a MD degree from india/russia and apply for residencies haha

 

[CDI]

Someone needs to provide proof of said $5,000 degree.

 

[yearn4ivy]

Semantics.

An overwhelming majority of people that start medical school (eventually) finish it due to 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances. Once you get into medical school, if you don't royally screw up, you will become an MD/DO. AA makes it easier to get into medical school. Transitive property. I get why it needs to be there, but we all need to just accept it and admit where it has flaws (race vs socioeconomic requirements, for one).

If I may, where exactly have you seen this done?

Really, AA=/= buying a degree in a foreign medical school.

 

[evilbooyaa]

If I may, where exactly have you seen this done?

Really, AA=/= buying a degree in a foreign medical school.

At my school... people fail a course, get a chance to remediate. Fail a second course and/or fail the remediation, get to repeat that school year. In the process of failing multiple courses in 1st year, get to split the 1st year into 2 years.

There are many chances to get your act together at most schools that aren't diploma mills. Almost every school in every subject has some form of remediation if you fail a class or two. Almost every school will let you repeat a year if you fail multiple classes within that year.

I don't think it's a bad system for the school to implement, just saying that it is there in place to catch those who may not be on the ball initially (or later on, depending on which year the remediation is required).

Also, I never said that AA = buying a degree. It is obviously hard work to get through school, but so are most medical schools (even those that are diploma mills), unless you literally buy the degree as mentioned above.

 

[preDoGuy24]

Someone needs to provide proof of said $5,000 degree.

From what I remember it was a DO who purchased a MD from some south American country, I don't think it was anything but BS and wouldn't have allowed him any practice rights and or ability to become licensed, merely a marketing ploy that he could legally put md and do behind his name...it is not legal (in my current state) for a DO to label themselves/market themselves as an MD, and vice versa I assume.

Honestly I would search for it but that's the general synopsis, + I am not motivated enough right now.

 

[cbrons]

i talked about affirmative action to remind the posters who accused FMG/Caribs of buying their MDs that not all of our med school admissions were based on merit.

are we really in a position to judge other countries when our med schools use openly racist admission policies?

a good implementation of affirmative action would have applicants being forced to practice primary care for 4-5 years in a minority community

Good point and to answer your question - no

 

[Kal EI]

affirmative action gives people MDs based on the color of their skin

I think they just make entrance into the school easier. Each person still earns their degree.

You like to talk about affirmative action, you bring it up all the time + post in every thread. Did you not get admitted because of minorities or something?

This field is filled with insecurities. I wouldn't judge based upon MD vs IMG or whatever. There's just more of a chance a US MD went to great school and less with some IMGs.

 

[Wordead]

I think they just make entrance into the school easier. Each person still earns their degree.

You like to talk about affirmative action, you bring it up all the time + post in every thread. Did you not get admitted because of minorities or something?

This field is filled with insecurities. I wouldn't judge based upon MD vs IMG or whatever. There's just more of a chance a US MD went to great school and less with some IMGs.

I don't know about that - the people that remediate multiple times but keep getting extra chances are not really earning their degree, in my opinion. There is a good 10-20% of my class that I would not trust treating anyone that I did not already want dead.

 

[Kal EI]

I don't know about that - the people that remediate multiple times but keep getting extra chances are not really earning their degree, in my opinion. There is a good 10-20% of my class that I would not trust treating anyone that I did not already want dead.

Fair enough. I'll admit, we don't have incompetent people at my school. I obviously can't speak for all US MDs.

You would think the board certification process and obtaining the degree would hold merit but I guess you're saying even a US MD doesn't mean much anymore.

 

[CDI]

Fair enough. I'll admit, we don't have incompetent people at my school. I obviously can't speak for all US MDs.

You would think the board certification process and obtaining the degree would hold merit but I guess you're saying even a US MD doesn't mean much anymore.

Notice how US MDs seem to make less and less every year...

 

[Medstart108]

The current system as it is is fine. Right now, only the most dedicated students (usually top students in their home countries) apply to the US because of all the effort. If we open it up and make it easier there will be a flood. There are many many more people who would love to practice and make the kind of money doctors in the US make, most of them decide not to because of the difficulty and yet we still have way more deciding to proceed than we can possibly accept. All this means is that we are getting the best, so the system is working fine.

The US is one of the most friendly countries to FMGs out there. Canada doesn't accept you unless you are a permanent resident or citizen. The EU has strong preferences for EU citizens. The UK is more open, and yet there is systemic discrimination towards foreign grads still.

The system is fine as it is, the only thing i would consider doing is stop forcing fully trained attendings and consultants in a number of Western, 1st world and english speaking countries, namely the UK, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand from having to redo residency in the US at taxpayer expense. They would still need to be ECFMG certified but would be able to practice after being supervised by a licensed physician for 1 year.

While doing this, they should also make this a reciprocal agreement meaning the UK, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand would allow US physicians or other nations in this consortium to do the same and practice in that country after a probation period. If this can't be achieved with all these countries, a bi-lateral physician free movement agreement would work too.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

i talked about affirmative action to remind the posters who accused FMG/Caribs of buying their MDs that not all of our med school admissions were based on merit.

are we really in a position to judge other countries when our med schools use openly racist admission policies?

a good implementation of affirmative action would have applicants being forced to practice primary care for 4-5 years in a minority community

dude like half your posts are about supposed AA in medical school...whenever i see you on a thread it always seems to have something to do about race

Also, u serious bro? Forcing applicants to practice primary care? How exactly would you determine who got admitted because of AA? Take all the minorities who got an MCAT below a certain score and impose that rule? Should we do it for the non-URMs below the cutoff too? All students below certain numbers have to go into primary care...because that'll make it look more appealing for everyone else.

 

[jw3600]

dude like half your posts are about supposed AA in medical school...whenever i see you on a thread it always seems to have something to do about race

Also, u serious bro? Forcing applicants to practice primary care? How exactly would you determine who got admitted because of AA? Take all the minorities who got an MCAT below a certain score and impose that rule? Should we do it for the non-URMs below the cutoff too? All students below certain numbers have to go into primary care...because that'll make it look more appealing for everyone else.

I agree it would be impossible to actually enforce something like that fairly. I believe PND is merely commenting that one of the most common, if not the most common, defenses of AA in medical school admissions is that physicians of said URM race will return to an underserved area with the population predominately being of that race. When in reality, we know that a large majority of URM medical students (as with non-URM students) flock to competitive and lucrative specialties in desirable places to live. You could have an option for people to apply to a URM/underserved combo program and thus justify having a forced commitment to an underserved area. If the URM applicant does not want to partake in that program, that is totally fine. They would forgo their URM advantage in admissions then.

 

[PrideNeverDie]

dude like half your posts are about supposed AA in medical school...whenever i see you on a thread it always seems to have something to do about race

Also, u serious bro? Forcing applicants to practice primary care? How exactly would you determine who got admitted because of AA? Take all the minorities who got an MCAT below a certain score and impose that rule? Should we do it for the non-URMs below the cutoff too? All students below certain numbers have to go into primary care...because that'll make it look more appealing for everyone else.

dude, be careful what threads you create on SDN

i made one thread on AA and it blew up. it was fun discussing the arguments for and against until i realized that i had become "the AA guy"

i wasn't being too serious about it, but if i had to implement it i would offer it as a scholarship for applicants that didn't make it.

what do you think about this system?

the admissions department reviews applications with the race hidden and with applicant's initials only to help minimize racism and nepotism. the admissions department then picks the top applicants and gives them interviews. during the interview process, the school selects whomever they want with all factors being considered. any left over spots will be filled by giving out an agreement to serve 4 years primary care in a community of choice. you could also add in a few perks to the agreement to make it better.

 

[swallday6400]

dude, be careful what threads you create on SDN

i made one thread on AA and it blew up. it was fun discussing the arguments for and against until i realized that i had become "the AA guy"

i wasn't being too serious about it, but if i had to implement it i would offer it as a scholarship for applicants that didn't make it.

what do you think about this system?

the admissions department reviews applications with the race hidden and with applicant's initials only to help minimize racism and nepotism. the admissions department then picks the top applicants and gives them interviews. during the interview process, the school selects whomever they want with all factors being considered. any left over spots will be filled by giving out an agreement to serve 4 years primary care in a community of choice. you could also add in a few perks to the agreement to make it better.

This guy.
I'll say this fact. I am currently in medical school. We have a primary care loan that you can take out during any of your four years. Very low rate. You know how many people have taken that loan out over the past couple of years? Zero. Who would want to commit their life seven years into the future. To think your idea is going to work is borderline crazy. No one is going to take that kind of offer before entering medical school. Not ALL doctors practice clinical medicine.
And another thing. Stop trying to make arguments that revolve around pushing minorities into primary care fields. That hurts the credibility of all your future arguments and claims. You sound really ignant (purposely spelled).

 

[Medstart108]

This guy.
I'll say this fact. I am currently in medical school. We have a primary care loan that you can take out during any of your four years. Very low rate. You know how many people have taken that loan out over the past couple of years? Zero. Who would want to commit their life seven years into the future. To think your idea is going to work is borderline crazy. No one is going to take that kind of offer before entering medical school. Not ALL doctors practice clinical medicine.
And another thing. Stop trying to make arguments that revolve around pushing minorities into primary care fields. That hurts the credibility of all your future arguments and claims. You sound really ignant (purposely spelled).

People who can't make it into medical school and are considering going abroad will take up that offer. People on SDN are all gunners, but the fact is there are still a lot of people who practice primary care. If you were left with the option of not becoming a doctor and making 80k a year vs becoming a primary care doctor and make 150-200k a year which would you take?

I actually like his plan, it makes a lot more sense than the system we have now anyways.

 

[Anastomoses]

dude, be careful what threads you create on SDN

i made one thread on AA and it blew up. it was fun discussing the arguments for and against until i realized that i had become "the AA guy"

I didn't know you were the AA guy until now. Now I know.

 

[DoctorDermis]

If the US allows foreign doctors to practice here less restrictively, all hell will break loose. There will be so many people against this (ACGME, AOA, etc), this would not be even questionably allowed.

Would you be surprised to learn that IMG's / Foreign-trained physicians are actually filling residency spots where there is an apparent paucity of US seniors / US grads applying?
It appears that IMG's are an essential pool of applicants for pathology programs.

Take Pathology for example:

Spots available 583
Spots filled 562
US Seniors 263
US Grads 45
Foreign Trained (US and Non US IMGs) 204

source: NRMP Main Residency Match 2013
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2013.pdf

 

[yehhhboiii]

Would you be surprised to learn that IMG's / Foreign-trained physicians are actually filling residency spots where there is an apparent paucity of US seniors / US grads applying?
It appears that IMG's are an essential pool of applicants for pathology programs.

Take Pathology for example:

Spots available 583
Spots filled 562
US Seniors 263
US Grads 45
Foreign Trained (US and Non US IMGs) 204

source: NRMP Main Residency Match 2013
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2013.pdf

maybe more people would go into path if the job market wasn't terrible

 

[tco]

Would you be surprised to learn that IMG's / Foreign-trained physicians are actually filling residency spots where there is an apparent paucity of US seniors / US grads applying?
It appears that IMG's are an essential pool of applicants for pathology programs.

Take Pathology for example:

Spots available 583
Spots filled 562
US Seniors 263
US Grads 45
Foreign Trained (US and Non US IMGs) 204

source: NRMP Main Residency Match 2013
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2013.pdf

This is probably not the best example because of the relative lack of residency programs in pathology in foreign countries. I did a year in pathology, and talked with the chief resident of our department about the reason for having so many Saudi residents in the department. He said, "There's only three medical schools in Saudi Arabia. There's only one real pathology program in the country. We have to leave the country if we want to get trained."

Also, there should not be that many pathology residency spots. Back when path was a 5 year residency and they truncated the program by a year, they did not decrease the number of new positions to counter-act the influx of residents into the field. During one year, they essentially graduated two classes. There's still too many being produced, thus the difficulty in the job market.

 

[Kal EI]

Would you be surprised to learn that IMG's / Foreign-trained physicians are actually filling residency spots where there is an apparent paucity of US seniors / US grads applying?
It appears that IMG's are an essential pool of applicants for pathology programs.

Take Pathology for example:

Spots available 583
Spots filled 562
US Seniors 263
US Grads 45
Foreign Trained (US and Non US IMGs) 204

source: NRMP Main Residency Match 2013
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2013.pdf

So is your argument that letting IMGs instant practice rights would therefore lead to filling the lower paying less popular fields and not the higher paying more popular fields? What conclusion are you trying to reach from this?

 

[mvenus929]

If you wanna make foreign MD grads from 1st world countries take the USMLE, fine. But no residency should be required at all whatsoever. That's a clear scam for hospitals to get cheap labor and for the pigs in the alphabet soup lobby groups to keep the supply of physicians artificially low.

In order for a US grad to get a medical license, he or she must graduate from med school and pass all three steps of the USMLE, in addition to completing a year of residency. I see no reason why foreign grads should be any different. Sure, if they're already trained in a certain field, then let them do a year of residency and then either go into practice or attempt to reduce their malpractice by sitting for the board exams in their specialty. If they pass, then by all means, let them loose on the American public.

That said, I do find it interesting that foreign grads can come here for fellowship training after doing a residency abroad. But if they decide that they suddenly want to stay in the US, they have to turn around and do a residency program again, even if they're already fellowship trained. One of the residents I worked with on peds was in such a situation--she came to the US to do a fellowship in peds neuro onc (and thus knows the system), then decided to stay, and now has to do a general pediatrics residency.