Official 2018-2019 Rank List Thread

Discussion in 'PM&R' started by RoRoLorL, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. RoRoLorL

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    Hey all!

    Now that the interview season is wrapping up and ranks are starting, I figured we'd kick it off and help each other brainstorm.
     
  2. OP
    OP
    RoRoLorL

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    I'll post my rankings to kick it off. Spent all day finalizing it, I think it's pretty done.

    1) NUMC
    Pros: What a hidden gem! The happiest residents. Very education-focused program. Great work-life balance. Unbelievably awesome pain placements. Unique burn rehab rotation.
    Cons: Poor city-funded hospital.

    2) Northwell
    Pros: Great training. Great location. Wealthy health system with tons of resources. 73k pgy2 salary.
    Cons: Lots of driving.

    3) UCLA VA
    Pros: Awesome location! Right between Santa Monica Beach and Beverly Hills; I had never seen so many Bentleys and Lamborghinis casually driving down the street. Very nice PD. Big and happy resident class. Highly-regarded Pain fellowship. California weather.
    Cons: Traffic.

    4) U Mich
    Pros: Great training. Very happy residents. Great work-life balance. Big name recognition. Lively college town. Easy access to Detroit & Chicago on weekends.
    Cons: Winters. No family in area.

    5) Mayo
    Pros: Huge reputation in and out of PM&R. #1 in MSK & U/S. Very happy residents. Very lifestyle friendly. Extremely generous research funds.
    Cons: Rochester

    6) Kessler
    Pros: Great reputation. Great training. Big class. Happy residents. Can live in Jersey City.
    Cons: Their focus on inpatient is more than I'm looking for.

    7) Montefiore
    Pro: In-house pain program. Good name recognition. Housing provided.
    Cons: Difficult patient population. Bronx safety.

    8) Columbia/Cornell (Polarizing program. Positives are strong, negatives are strong)
    Pros: Big name. Great location. Great facilities. Great fellowship matches.
    Cons: Work-horse to a fault.

    9) NYU
    -Pros: Big name. Great location.
    -Cons: Bellevue. Work-horse to a fault.

    10) Temple
    Pros: Stood out in quality of training.
    Cons: Philly and the area was not for me.

    11) Metropolitan
    Pro: Location.
    Cons: Call schedule, support staff.

    12) Tufts
    Pro: Location.
    Cons: Very community program and socially isolating.


    Comments:
    Prior to the interviews, I had no idea I would be ranking Columbia and NYU so low. They were my numbers 1 & 2 dream programs when submitting ERAS. I also did not expect NUMC to rise to number 1 spot. But I've found that I would prefer to spend the next 4 years in a happy family-friendly training environment. Thankfully, programs 1-5 on my list fully embody that.
     
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  3. katiemaude

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    Great list. I think NUMC is Nassau University? I was also pleasantly surprised with it and will be ranking it higher than I expected, too. Haven’t finalized my rank list yet. I rotated at a few of the work horse programs you mentioned and agree with your assessments.
     
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  4. Dodgers75

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    Just my two cents! Please don't argue with me. I will kindly ignore you.

    I have nothing against NUMC. I never interviewed there, and I do believe there are 'hidden gems' when it comes to residency programs. Having said that I do believe that you should not focus solely on so called "interview day experience," if anything, a program can put together a hack of show for a day.

    Don't get me wrong avoid malignant/work-horse program like a plague by all means. But after all, it is PM&R. You will get your enough family vibe and 'Relaxation' in most of solid programs.

    Life during residency should be important, but life after residency should be much more important. People will quickly judge you by the name of residency on paper. All I am saying is that I would be cautious on making your list solely on the interview day experience. 'Name' and 'traditions' really do matter in the real world.

    Again, just my 2 cents.
     
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  5. OP
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    RoRoLorL

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    Yep, Nassau! Everyone is super excited about the new PD as well.

    You don't need to "kindly" ignore me. You already made a largely condescending comment and assumption.

    My friends and I rotated at these programs. We love some (eg Mayo, Spaulding) and hate others because we experienced them in depth. Manhattan programs are not even remotely relaxed. During my 2 months in manhattan, my daily schedule was a heavy 7am-6pm, full of scut. In comparison, ortho residents at my hospital work 6am-5pm..

    NUMC has the best pain match on my list. Northwell grads have the best private practice jobs. NY-P/NYU/monte are good for academia and getting a faculty job within their closed academic circle. Kessler and Burke are the best inpatient.

    Your analysis of "name and tradition" is far too simplistic and a superficial way of pursuing post-residency goals.
     
  6. cluelessme7

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    Having gone through the trail last year and speaking with currently graduating residents in my program, I would have to agree with Dodgers75. Reputation and name just opens doors. Especially being a smaller field, a recommendation or connection offered by a big name faculty member truly goes a long way—Both for fellowships and securing jobs. Marketability as a Private Practice physician can also be influenced by name/prestige of training program. Not to say that a stellar resident can’t excel regardless of where he or she goes, but sometimes having name recognition at a well funded institution can provide you with opportunities you may have to struggle to find at a lesser known program. Just my two cents, obviously a lot of other factors involved when it comes to ranking.
     
  7. j4pac

    j4pac PM&R resident
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    The moment I saw the “please don’t argue with me” I knew this would get interesting. :)

    I’ll call this “the case of the city slicker”. But really the case of the city slicker isn’t a whole lot different than the case of the California kid or the case of the country boy. There are those of us who put an enormous priority on location...and we all think that we have good reasons.

    So I’m going to look at things through the eyes of the OP. I’m terrified of silence. I have a deathly fear of grass. People who are kind to me while driving are clearly insane. Upstate NY should be annexed by Canada.

    I want to do a PM&R residency. I put a high priority on an outpatient focus, non-malignant work environment, and oh yes, it has to have a population of over 8 million sandines...I mean people.

    With that criteria...I have gotten rid of every reputable PM&R program on the planet. I’m down to about 2-3 programs and quite frankly all of them are pretty damn similar. So what am I going to use as a tie breaker? How about the program with happy residents that had a large amount of residents matching into my desired fellowship. Bingo

    I’m picking on you...but I was once in your shoes as the case of the country boy with a family. I intentionally avoided certain cities, including NYC, because I refuse to put my family in a situation that I wasn’t comfortable with. So I get it. I had programs that were considered elite below far less reputable programs.

    Would I do it again? It’s tough because I can only speak from my own experiences. I’m going to a highly reputable program...one that I think could very well be the best...so it’s very easy to see the advantages I have because of where I train. I know that I could have competitive for literally any path the field had to offer. I had the resources, research opportunities, training, and know-how to get it done. I know that I now have tons of reputable employers trying to hire me...partly because of me but also largely because of the success of those who came before me. So knowing what I know now...would I accept going to a lesser program? Honestly...my rank list would change...I would definitely base it less on emotion and more so on the opportunities for education and future success. It’s three years that are going to define the physician you become...I’d make the most of it.
     
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    #7 j4pac, Jan 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  8. Dodgers75

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    Umm.. I didn't expect OP to be upset like that. Lolz I was talking to general public (mostly for current residents).

    Again, nothing against Nassau or Northwell. I am not doing my residency at NYU or Columbia/Cornell. This forum exists because we want to share our ideas. I don't think I tried to criticize OP with my comments. Again, the comment was for general public.If I offended OP, my apologies.

    However, just like cluelessme7 said, I have seen things with my seniors/ colleagues and went through ACGME pain fellowship application myself this last year. Just because NUMC had best pain fellowship match this year (whatever this means, whole another discussion). It doesn't mean that it will be continued or you never know how hard those individuals worked for the spot (this is key!). For example, I have seen so many qualified PM&R applicants from 'US News ranking' mid-tier programs who were struggling to get interviews (I am not sure how they matched). When I saw my colleague with seemingly less complete application getting interviews from Harvard and etc. Not to mention how hard those folks had to work for a project or during audition rotation. I took that for granted as we had built in ACGME pain rotation and research opportunities laying around for anyone to grab. Again, this is what I observed.

    Finally, I am not saying you should go for name/tradition and ignore work environment all together. OP, you said your top 5 fully embodies what you are looking for. Then, I am merely 'suggesting' that you should consider ex. Mayo as a top choice, even if you liked NUMC's environment slightly better. Especially, if you are interested in fellowship placement and future job security. It is just hard to imagine as an applicant to fully see how Mayo sets themselves apart from other programs, I just wish I knew this beforehand (j4pac can vouch for this). After going through the whole process, ranking Mayo #1 would be a no brainer for me.

    Again, you don't hurt my feelings at all whatever you decide to do. All I am saying is that if whatever you value is good enough, then you should rank your list by their 'name/tradition.' Again, although I matched at 'top' ACGME pain fellowship, I am just saying this because I regret my decision.
     
    #8 Dodgers75, Jan 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  9. katiemaude

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    Dodgers75, everyone on the interview trail up through the seasoned attending knows the big names in PM&R that will open doors in our field: Mayo, Kessler, NYP, Spaulding, RIC, UW. I understand why it can seem disconcerting to have those interviews in your pocket ans not put 1 at the top.

    What about the other programs, that have name recognition because of their medicine rep or are up-and-coming or very well regarded?

    I’m thinking of UPMC, NYU, Vanderbilt, Hopkins, Stanford.... if those meet your needs because of location or fit, and the big 6 don’t, is that a bad move too?

    I ask because I’m wondering where you would draw the line.

     
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  10. Dodgers75

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    Awesome question. There must be line somewhere right? First of all, frankly speaking, I can not say I know exactly where I can draw the line myself. As it gets closer and closer to gray line, I have to say your personal preference should be considered more and more. I will not even attempt to make general suggestion for this matter. However, since you asked :), I will throw some things you may consider when you are making your decision upcoming weeks (hopefully, it would help rather than making things more complicated lolz). Again, I just shoot straight. I have no intention to offend anyone.

    First, I should say programs you mentioned above are pretty solid (I would even say Stanford or UPMC can be considered as a 'top' program nowadays).

    1) I say location is more important than you think, especially if you are looking to work straight out of residency at a competitive market like California, NY, and etc. Although there are general interests if you are from an elite PM&R program, local connections are hard to beat. In this token, Mayo vs. no-name is a no brainer. But, Mayo (my personal #1) vs. Stanford (an elite/top program for sure!) becomes hard, especially for me, as I have strong preference for California. I may even have to rank Stanford above Mayo (again Stanford is a strong program). We are literally splitting hairs here.

    2) I am skeptical about what 'fit' actually means. The reason being is that even if you did a full month of audition rotation, I simply think it is impossible to judge a residency program as a medical student. Listen to what college kids say about medical school. You will get my point. Again, you should definitely avoid malignant program. Otherwise, 'fit' frankly depends largely on who you are working with, especially your class (which you can't control) and your drive to learn. Solid PM&R will get you there if you put enough of work into it.

    3) I will tell you why it is hard for me to make a general rec. Let's talk about academic job only. Seems like this is narrowed enough to say one thing right? No! It is because if you are set on PM&R academics, then going for PM&R big 6 make more sense. Funny thing is, if you are looking for ACGME pain/sports academic jobs, then general medicine reputation carry more weight (for example, Kessler < Hopkins). Same general rule applies for fellowship placement (PM&R vs. Pain/Sports). PM&R fellowships are easy to get into, so you shouldn't worry about this.

    4) This can raise an eyebrow, but again, this is MY opinion. The reason why I am in love with Mayo is because of their MSK/US curriculum. MSK/US stuff is a skill set that is in high demand across the board and it takes time, # of cases, awesome attending for you to master. (academic, private, PM&R, ortho, pain... you name it they want you if you are good). On the other hand, I would say if you put some effort in, then even a sub-par program can provide you with enough education for inpatient, botox, whatever PM&R stuff there is to it. But MSK/US training is something that many programs have trouble providing a 'complete' package if you look into their curriculum closely. Trust me. MSK/US is not everything and you can even master yourself with time, learn on the job, and going to courses (probably arranged by Mayo attendings lolz), but I would definitely consider this component the highest when it comes down to residency ranking. Same reason why I say Stanford and UPMC are at top now, judging from not only by their quality of completeness in overall educational curriculum, but also heavily on MSK/US training quality through meeting lots of people in conference/interview trail/personal connection/etc. Again, just my personal thought.

    5) I am getting tired, and I think I did enough of explaining. I will stop here and give you my general thought about those programs you mentioned. I say you can't go wrong with Mayo, Spaulding, NYP, RIC, UW, UPMC, and Stanford. Vanderbilt/Hopkins/NYU have name recognition but up and coming for PM&R. I can't comment on Kessler (lesser medicine name value compare to others for sure. I don't know enough info about their PM&R training nowadays).

    Hope this helps!
     
    #10 Dodgers75, Jan 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  11. Andy28

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    I think what fit means is whether the characteristics of a residency align with the applicant's values. As many of you mentioned, prestige and name matters to many of us, but may not matter that much to others. Fellowship may matter, but some may not be interested in fellowship (or brand name of a fellowship) at all. Some may argue that you should be the best clinician you can be during residency, some may think otherwise. It's just a difference in preference. Not that anyone is right or wrong.

    Match is a process of getting to know yourself. For someone, location may be their priority (family living nearby, social life, amenities, etc) whereas for others it may be quality of training. Even for the latter, rank list will vary depending on their interest. That's why so many people have different rank order list (although there are trends). You may argue all day long, but at the end of the day, it is you who knows yourself the best.
     
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  12. katiemaude

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    I agree with Andy about the definition of a good fit. Among my top 3 programs, which are all highly regarded but not among the big 6, one stands out for its location near family. It isn’t as highly regarded as another one of my top 3 in the PM&R world but it has big name recognition. The training might not even be as good, as some of the faculty are more focused on research than the residents. But for me, the positives tilt it really heavily in favor.
     
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  13. Dodgers75

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    Got it. I personally was and still is to say that location near family can trump anything. As Andy mentioned, it is complicated and can't be straightforward. I just threw everything that I could think of at that moment.

    Again, I get my standards from myself and talking to lots of people. Things that I mentioned were things that people wish they knew before. Even the 'fit,' just like jpac4 said ("focusing more on education/success"), even the people who were 100% sure about their needs beforehand (ex. heavily family oriented guy/girl) not all but some ended up thinking otherwise going through the training. Just my experience.

    Hopefully, my comments helped someone. At the end of the day, we all will be PM&R doc. God bless you all!
     
  14. j4pac

    j4pac PM&R resident
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    I think that many of us make a mistake in being desperate to be a part of this specialty. You don’t look ahead to opportunities past residency because we have tunnel vision into getting into residency.

    How can someone decide that fellowship isn’t for them before they even begin their residency training? That’s an enormous mistake in my opinion. I don’t think that an incoming PGY-2 is informed enough about the process and big picture to make that decision early on. You are essentially burning your bridges before you get going. I’d strongly recommend that a PM&R applicant goes somewhere that leaves as many doors open to them as possible.

    It’s also incredibly difficult to get a sense of the quality of training by doing an interview at a program. The programs are RECRUITING you, and so are the residents (though to a lesser extent). The top programs are at the top because they have YEARS of having a well rounded program and putting out successful residents.

    I’d also be careful going to the place with happy residents. I love my program...but I’m not particularly bubbly and at the end of a ward month with a couple of rough call days I’m not going to be happy. But I truly appreciate my education, I wouldn’t have done anything different, and the people/work environment are awesome. Definitely avoid malignant programs and avoid places that residents are unhappy with their quality of education. I think you may end up regretting going to a place you knew was a bad fit, but you may also regret going to the place with less opportunity but happy residents. You have to find a good balance.
     
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  15. Dodgers75

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    This. Pure gold.

    Again, it is you who makes the final decision for yourself. If we got you think about things, then I call it a success.

    Funny thing about 'happy residents.' I am not trying to bash our program. It is pretty good, but we are almost 'forced' to participate for an interview day. I have seen our residents put on a 'happiest' face and go to 'work' for the interview day. I have seen residents only talk about wonderful things (even for a particular rotation that everyone hates). On the other hand, I have seen others who will throw positives and negatives, though they still choose their words very carefully. Why? Put yourself in a resident shoe, you interact with so many candidates ~5 mins each. Can you trust them that they wouldn't quote you for saying negative things. For my program, our chair/PD is very much involved and is there throughout the whole interview day process. My PD complemented me 'jokingly' that I am very frank with the candidates lolz. As you can see, I shoot straight. For this year's interview day, they were 'okay' with me not being there.

    Again, I am not saying interview day is worthless. I am just telling you to be cautious about basing your decision solely on an 'interview' day. As I said before, programs can put together a heck of show for a day.

    FYI- what I did during my fellowship interview is that I talked to as many fellows I can during an interview day. I identified one 'straight-shooting' fellow and got a phone number. I called them few weeks before rank list submission day (half of them already graduated from the program) to find out what he/she 'really' thinks about the program. I can tell you for a fact that I often got different (not just negatives but overall much more valuable) things about the program this way than the whole interview day or PD's presentation. Again, just my 2 cents.
     
  16. Andy28

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    Okay. Now that you say it, I'll disclose myself a little bit. I completed my residency at one of the aforementioned "work horse" programs. I wanted to do pain since MS3, so I chose my program based on the assumption that doing my residency at a reputable program with its own pain fellowship will open doors. What did I end up doing? I didn't do a fellowship. I was just so burned out to do more years of training. Yes, you may judge me for being weak, but couple of my co-residents went down the same route. I'm happy with my current state and regret at times not choosing a more laid back, family friendly program. My relationship with my spouse was very bad during residency and I wasn't able to fully embrace my daughter's early years. Years of med school makes you forget that there are other important doors in life outside of medicine. Yes, I get that I'm on the extreme end of spectrum, but just wanted to share my story with you guys.
     
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  17. Dodgers75

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    Not to hijack jpac4’s question and point very well taken and also sorry for what happened.

    But, both I and jpac4 said repeatedly to avoid maligant program. We suggested to consider education/name/tradition more seriously when a program gets a ‘pass’ for work environment. There are plenty of programs offering both. Just by judging from your comments, your program is malignant. So, we all agree that people should avoid. I actually think we are saying the same thing here.
     
  18. Dodgers75

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    I don’t want to make this black and white, but it may needs to be now. Aside from individual/personal specific situations, from my perspective, we are comparing two things.

    Program A with an excellent education/name/tradition AND good personal fit/ working environment vs. Program B with a good education/name/tradition AND excellent personal fit/ working environment. For me, we are talking residency, so I say people should pick Program A over B. That’s my point.
     
  19. j4pac

    j4pac PM&R resident
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    I apologize if I made it seem that I was going after you. I really wasn’t. I’m sorry you got burned out. Perhaps I shouldn’t have replied to you because I wasn’t really replying to you...I was really just making a counterpoint for the benefit of the applicants.

    Not all top programs are malignant or work you into the ground. There are plenty who burn out outside of the big-6. I certainly wouldn’t base my rank list solely off of the US News top Rehab hospitals.

    I wrote what I wrote because I didn’t want applicants to be disillusioned that your resident program doesn’t matter. I also wanted to warn them about basing an important decision based on how “happy” the residents were...which is often at least partially fabricated. That’s all
     
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  20. hashtag

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    As someone who trained at one of the top few programs (to me personally, it's not limited to 6), I cannot overemphasize the importance of exposure to patient pathology and variety in both the inpatient and outpatient settings. As a fellow now looking for outpatient MSK and interventional positions, I have come across some opportunities that incorporate inpatient coverage. This might be a turn off for some, but having had fantastic inpatient experiences as a resident, I find myself comfortable with a potential hybrid practice. I think it's great to have a flexible skill set!

    Never again in your life will you have the opportunity to focus, develop lasting friendships with colleagues, and discover who your mentors are more deeply than in residency. If a residency had a huge turnout for interview day and the residents seemed like a diverse group, it's unlikely for all of them to be faking happiness.

    All other factors (location, fellowship match, etc) vary in importance based on one's personality and preferences. I agree with not underestimating location and where one might want to end up especially with a family. If you are not tethered anywhere however, go to where the training is. You only get one shot at residency, and you have to make it count. Even if you are not interested in a particular subspecialty, going to a program where graduates specialize in different things (versus all trying to match into one specialty) has its advantages; I often run cases by my colleagues who are now completing their inpt fellowships or who are out in practice. I learn from them CONSTANTLY. And guess what? You might change your mind about what you think you want to do, and the best way to have conviction about your career choice is to be informed about all aspects of our field.

    In a nutshell: Patients, colleagues, and mentors will define your experience for the rest of your career. You do your best work where you are happiest. Exposure matters. You don't know what you don't know.

    Good luck everyone! And keep in mind that most of us are compatible and would be happy and productive in MANY programs. It's a win-win all around.
     
    #20 hashtag, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  21. drg123

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    What are people's impressions of WashU-Barnes Jewish program? Not one of the traditional 'top' programs but it was a surprisingly impressive program and it seems like there is a lot of positive change with the new PD. Thoughts?
     
  22. claner1

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    Love the discussion above, thanks for the wisdom and insight all. I'll keep the ball rolling by posting my top 5:

    1) Mayo
    2) UPMC
    3) Shirley Ryan
    4) Spaulding
    5) Colorado

    Looking forward to hearing how others' rank lists turn out as well!
     
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  23. Dodgers75

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    You must be a strong candidate. First of all, those 5 programs are all elite programs you can not go wrong with. Again, I am just trying to help, but I would rank Harvard #2. Same reason I mentioned above. Harvard name will help you in the future for everything.
     
  24. j4pac

    j4pac PM&R resident
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    I understand your point but I know I would have went with UPMC over all of the other programs not named Mayo because it’s much more livable for families. For me at least, the benefit in name recognition wouldn’t outweigh the benefit of a better situation to thrive.
     
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  25. RangerBob

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    What is this Shirley Ryan program you speak of? Is it near Hogwarts?

    First the Sears Tower. Then RIC. Is Wrigley Field getting a name change? Wrigley hasn’t owned it for decades if I recall...

    Great list of programs. Best of luck in the match.
     
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  26. RangerBob

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    Maybe others can correct me if I’m wrong, but within my own residency and fellowship, and talking with attendings fromother top programs, UPMC has a very strong name in PM&R. We didn’t consider it “up and coming” like how everyone considers many others programs (like Stanford, and other “name” programs that at least in the PM&R world, aren’t quite living up to their institutions reputation. Which isn’t to speak ill per se of Stanford-it’s a great program. It just isn’t in the top of the PM&R wold the way it is in everything else).

    UPMC has already arrived.

    I also would’ve ranked UPMC at the top of that list as well. It’d be hard to choose between UPMC, Mayo, and Colorado. I’d personally rank those above RIC and Spaulding.

    Where I work, no one cares about the program I trained at. Honestly unless you’re in academia, most employers just want a warm body who’ll stay and do their job. Quite a few want you to be personable and all that, but honestly physicians in general are in such demand that it’s a sellers market for us.
     
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  27. sloh

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    Agreed, even in more saturated markets like Southern California.
     
  28. j4pac

    j4pac PM&R resident
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    I agree. I’ve known enough people at UPMC to know that they are among the top programs in the country. Very strong at inpatient and outpatient. The reviews from UPMC are much more consistently positive than Stanford.

    I personally like Mayo, UPMC, Harvard, and RIC the most. All will give you a very well rounded training. Mayo and Harvard may give you the best options post-residency as they are reknown throughout medicine. I have a preference toward outpatient and lower COL areas...so Mayo and UPMC are at the top for me. Until Colorado stops discriminating against DO’s...I couldnt recommend them.
     
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  29. Dodgers75

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    Again, if I did not make myself clear, I agree UPMC is a top PM&R program, and there is nothing wrong about going to UPMC over Harvard.

    However, I am still pretty firm about my preference for Harvard. Maybe I am biased just going through pain fellowship and hearing different anecdotal job searching experiences myself. I simply believe you will get same quality PM&R training at both program but 'slightly' better options for post-residency opportunities coming from Harvard.

    That's all.
     
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  30. Rehabdoc77

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    Don’t mean to hijack this thread, but can anyone speak to the strength of Mayo’s MSK US curriculum and why is it unanimously regarded as the best in the nation? When I was there on interview day everything felt super impressive for sure, but couldn’t really pinpoint exactly what was unique about the curriculum. Seems like all the top institutions heavily emphasize US training these days, and at some places like Georgetown there’s even a dedicated US track that you can pursue. So what makes Mayo unique? The expertise of the faculty that are teaching it? The way that the workshops are organized? Simply based on track record of alumni?
     
  31. j4pac

    j4pac PM&R resident
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    1) Leaders in the field. Dr Jay Smith and Jon Finnoff are enormous names in MSK ultrasound. They have taught many of the other attendings diagnostic MSK ultrasound, so the level of expertise is VERY high throughout the department. The truth is that many of the other “good ultrasound” programs had their attendings learn from Mayo attendings. They are innovators of the field.
    2) Top notch anatomy course...with ultrasound being well integrated into anatomy. You learn the anatomy very well from many different angles.
    3) We have weekly didactics with HEAVY emphasis on physical exam, ultrasound, and MSK/sports med for about half the year. Again, taught by world reknown experts.
    4) We have a dedicated hand clinic month where we again get heavy use of ultrasound.
    5) We have dedicated MSK and ultrasound guided procedure months, where it is not uncommon to do ten times the amount of USGCI as the average PM&R resident. I’m sure you saw the stats presented at your interview. Ultrasound guided injections aren’t easy. There is a learning curve. Anyone who tells you any different is blowing smoke. I can say with confidence that the average resident doesn’t get enough cases to be proficient at many injections. You can be proficient when you leave Mayo, and you learn the anatomy and how to use ultrasound well enough to feel confident with injections you have less experience doing.
    6) You rotate through the Sports Medicine department which is very likely one of the best fellowships at incorporating ultrasound. Again, world reknown physicians, tons of diagnostic ultrasound, tons of regenerative medicine, and the full spectrum of ultrasound guided procedures...including some that aren’t performed in many places in the country.
    7) You rotate through Mayos pain department, again a heavy emphasis on ultrasound. Get lots of experience with diagnostic nerve blocks under ultrasound and a variety of corticosteroid injections.
    8) You rotate through through the busiest EMG lab in the country. Again...seeing a trend here?...has ultrasound incorporated. You get trained on ultrasound diagnostic criteria for many conditions such as carpal and cubital tunnel. Think that there’s at peroneal neuropathy at the knee? Feel free to look at it under ultrasound. Aledgedly our new EMG machines will have ultrasound incorporated. EMG is run by the Neurology department...and even THEY care enough about it.
    9) We have an ultrasound machine on the rehab unit, and we’re not afraid to use it when indicated.
    10) We have an ultrasound guided injection cadaver course where you can practice more uncommon injections...or the common ones if you’d like...of course under the guidance of experts in the field.

    I think I’ll stop at ten.
     
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  32. Chelsea FC

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    All impressive but wouldn't somewhere like Spaulding have something similar ?
     
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  33. j4pac

    j4pac PM&R resident
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    You’ll have to ask someone at Spaulding
     
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  34. DOctorJay

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    You did this more justice than I would have. Thanks for posting.
     
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  35. Gibbwil

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    I'm already considering ranking Mayo #1, but considering the immense competition for their spots, I'm really trying to hammer down my #2-5 spots. Can anyone give me some input on the quality of these programs? Assume they're all equally appealing to me. Thank you!

    Ohio State, Medical College of WI, UW-Madison, LSU
     
  36. j4pac

    j4pac PM&R resident
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    Have any thoughts about what you’re interested in and where you’d like to practice?
     
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  37. Gibbwil

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    Ideally a small to medium city (20k-100k population) in a non-academic center in the Midwest! Not a huge fan of cities and/or the coasts.
     
  38. j4pac

    j4pac PM&R resident
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    If that’s the case...OSU and UW-Madison look pretty strong. OSU has the best reputation for inpatient but UW-Madison is pretty strong at outpatient & peds. I didn’t interview at OSU so I’m less knowledgeable of their outpatient exposure. I interviewed at UW-Madison and really liked it. Honestly, it was the program I thought I would match...didn’t think Mayo was realistic.

    MCW is a good program, and honestly may be the most well rounded of the bunch (per interactions from applicants and a few that went there)...but it’s a bigger city. LSU isn’t in the Midwest, is in a larger city, and is a pretty pain-centric program per reports. Based on what you’re looking for, I’d rank LSU last. If you are willing to deal with the larger city for 3-4 years...then MCW shoots up the boards.

    Edit: I guess that MCW isn’t in the heart of city. Looks like a very good option.
     
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  39. Pea Em Argh

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    Really appreciate all the advice in this thread.

    I'm having a bit of a struggle with my rank list at the moment and was hoping for some advice. Don't wanna reveal too much info, so it'll be a mix of specific and vague info.

    I genuinely like SCI the most, shortly followed by sports med and general practice. I had interviews at a decent number of the "top" programs.

    The programs that I enjoyed the most were Utah, UPMC, Colorado, UW, and Stanford.
    I feel that the education at all of these places will be top notch. I don't care much for the prestige factor, but I do care about job/fellowship prospects and exposure to pathology and opportunity. My favorite locations are definitely Utah and Colorado, but I feel that all the locations are generally positives for me. It's important to me to have time to spend with my family during residency, but i'm not sure how much that really changes between these residencies.

    It just seems so difficult for me to know what is important and how the rankings will affect my future job prospects. Do you guys have any insights into the individual programs or help in how to think about the rankings?
     
  40. Piebaldi

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    I would definitely rank Mayo, Kessler, Temple and maybe NYU first. Name recognition is important particularly if you want to do fellowship later.
     
  41. Piebaldi

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    All those programs are pretty solid. I would rank Spaulding first, Shirley Ryan either first or second - depending where you want to be really. Boston (ugh!) vs Chicago (yay). But can't really go wrong with either. I don't know about Shirley Ryan but I it seemed like at Spaulding when I rotated there, the residents were not allowed to do ceratin things when it came to procedural stuff - maybe bc of the high elite nature of patients? Although I would suspect SR suffers from some of the similar issue as well.
     
  42. ErrantWhatever

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    The nice thing about MCW is that it’s in Tosa, so you can engage in the city aspect of the MKE area as much or as little as you like. I really wouldn’t factor “city life” into that decision too much.
     
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  43. Dodgers75

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    Just my thought. First of all, you just can't go wrong with any of these program. All solid. Great job.

    I really can't comment on work/life balance for these programs because you can only know about the program when you actually start your residency there. I did not hear anything malignant about these programs, but I heard Stanford and UW peeps work hard (not malignant/overwhelming) which you actually want to do during residency. Seems like location is a wash for you.

    1st/ Stanford: Great all around. Name value unbeatable. SCI strong (one of the SCI attending was probably the best clinician I met, not just in PM&R).
    2nd/ UPMC = UW: Great all around. Great name. Just can't go wrong with these two. They are the crème of the crop.
    3rd/ Utah = Colorado: Great all around. Good name (not as 'prestigious' as above). Residents seem very happy. Nothing negative really.

    FYI This is totally anecdotal, so take it with grain of salts. Why name? First, it definitely prepared me well and opened doors for me applying to pain fellowship. I pretty much got interviews from almost all the program I applied to. I believe where I trained had huge impact from start to finish. Reasons are: 1)Ample opportunity to work on high impact research 2)My mentors were colleagues/friends of almost all the academic pain attendings nationwide, so their letter made a huge difference 3) >10 interviewers told me "Oh, I know you are from XX program. I don't even want to waste time on asking questions. I know you got solid education." I have compared notes with many of PM&R candidates. It was apparent to me that some of mid tier (solid state university programs) w/ maybe better credential than me were struggling to get 'high-tiered' interviews, not to mention how hard they had to work for research publication, finding mentor, setting up electives, and etc. I got all of those with minimum effort.

    Also, in general, it definitely helps for job searches. I know my seniors had their sweet job lined up well before their graduation. It is extreme example, but I know a girl who went to Spaulding. She decided to do pediatric focused inpatient work at her home town. They offered her unbeatable salary and benefits w/ dedicated newly built pediatric rehab unit (they built the unit just to recruit her). They put her face on the highway bulletin even before she graduated, saying 'Harvard graduate in town.' I am not saying that it only happens in these programs, but there seemed to be strong tendency and any resident should be able to appreciate the trend looking back.

    All in all, in my experience, PM&R reputation works the best for PM&R academic jobs. But, out in the real world, general medicine reputation resonates all around from patients, other physicians, to administrative people.
     
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  44. Gibbwil

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    Thanks for all the help! Probably going to rank MCW #2, Madison #3, OSU #4 then. Keeping my fingers crossed for Mayo still!
     
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