**Official** CONFUSED ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MD AND DO thread

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1. Do MDs make more than DOs?
-Lets compare apples to apples such as family practice.
2. Also, is it harder to find jobs for DO in non rural areas thus making it harder to earn a higher income?
3. Are DO's allowed to team up with MDs? Lets say work together in the same complex.

Thanks.
 
This must have been painful to answer CBear
 
From what I've noticed though, most DOs seem to go more to the rural regions and less to the urban areas..... is this a wrong assumption?
 
From what I've noticed though, most DOs seem to go more to the rural regions and less to the urban areas..... is this a wrong assumption?

I know quite a few DO's and they all practice in major cities.
I guess it depends on what you consider rural?
Population of less than...???
 
I think it depends on the area. I live in Phoenix, and they're mixed fairly nicely with MDs (but we also have two DO schools here).

I think in general people will go to where the jobs are. Since many DOs go the primary care route, it would make sense that many would pursue a career in rural areas... or maybe they're on scholarships/grants that require them to pay back the loans in service.
 
1. Do MDs make more than DOs?
-Lets compare apples to apples such as family practice.
2. Also, is it harder to find jobs for DO in non rural areas thus making it harder to earn a higher income?
3. Are DO's allowed to team up with MDs? Lets say work together in the same complex.

Thanks.

Chocolate Bear is correct.

Answer 1: NO

Reason: Physicians are paid based on their billing (or per pre-negotiated contract with the hospital plus productivity bonuses, like hospitalists). There is no seperate billing code or EM modifier for MD vs DO. An acute level 3 office visit is paid the same by insurance/medicaid/HMO whether you are an US MD, DO, or IMG. A inpatient critical care billing (billed as spending 1 hr with patient on critical care issues) is paid the same. A colonoscopy is paid the same, whether it is done by a general surgeon or by a GI doc (no matter if it is done by an MD or DO). If it is a rare case of the hospital paying the doc a fixed salary - then the hospital have NO incentive to pay DOs less than MDs. If a hospital were to do that, the solution is simple - DOs will avoid that hospital and hospitals will have recruitment issues. All hospitals (from rural community hospital to big city academic meccas) have recruitment and retention issues and spend a significant amount of time recruiting (and trying to retain current physicians as to not lose them to another facility).

Answer 2: NO

Reason: Numbers may be deceptive but as a percentage, there are more DO schools in rural regions compare to MD schools in rural regions. There are more AOA residencies in rural regions (as a percentage) compare to ACGME residencies. But you will still find DOs in cities all across the US. It will be hard for anyone (whether it is USMD, DO or IMG) to enter saturated markets that are in demand (downtown LA, NYC, SF, Chicago) and quite easy to enter markets with huge demands (inner city LA, NYC, SF, Chicago, rural regions).

Just because you work in a rural region might not necessarily mean you make less than urban/suburban. If you work rural with 100% of your patient base uninsured or on medicaid, then you will make less. But with Medicaid/Medicare and some HMO increasing emphasis on rural underserve area, there may be some EM modifier you can submit with your billing code that will increase reimbursement for same level of service/procedure. Medicare also reimburse for home visits if properly documented and billed.

Answer 3: No. There was a recent temporarily restraining order, upheld on appeals by the 7th circuit court of appeals, that prohibit all DOs from coming within any MD within 200 feet. Violation will face $250 fine per incident and jail time. It has certainly made residency a lot more challenging for me.

Just joking. Not only are DOs and MDs allow to work together (I don't even see how such law can be passed and survive a constitutional challenge), but DOs are also on faculty at major academic centers (Harvard, Mayo, UCSF, Hopkins, etc). They are attendings at ACGME residencies, teaching MD residents and MD students.
 
From what I've noticed though, most DOs seem to go more to the rural regions and less to the urban areas..... is this a wrong assumption?

I only know about PCOM, but those people have infested all the academic major hospitals and private practices all over philly - I don't know how they got around the 20-mile-from-electricity restraining order for DO's. 😀
 
I think I rather shoot a bucket full of golden retriever puppies in the face than answer these type of questions again...
 
I heard DOs are required by law to give back any money they make over 100k.
 
Thank you for the responses everyone. I'm considering family practice and such; are there any statistics concerning salary for DO doctors of this practice or is it the same as for Md?

Also.... is it more difficult for DOs to get good residencies such as Hopkins?

Thanks
 
Thank you for the responses everyone. I'm considering family practice and such; are there any statistics concerning salary for DO doctors of this practice or is it the same as for Md?

Well, I'm not sure if you read group_theory's response to you (I would if I were you), but let me summarize, just in case. Both MD's and DO's use the same billing codes, since they are both classified as physicians; there's no degree modifier. Therefore, given the same conditions and patients, they are going to make the same amount. However, there are other factors at play that can impact how much you make, such as where you choose to practice, meaning there are regional differences, how good of a business person you are, and how hard you want to work. It's hard to come up with any generalizations because of that, but, as a whole, I think it is pretty clear that the significant factors that decide your salary doesn't include degree.

Also.... is it more difficult for DOs to get good residencies such as Hopkins?

In short, yes. The longer answer is that it's difficult for everyone, MD or DO, to get "good" residencies. You are going to have to make yourself into an outstanding applicant, which isn't that easy to do in medical school. Attending an allopathic medical school doesn't confer some kind of magic onto you that allows you to bypass this and automatically match into a good residency. Meaning, if you suck as an applicant, you are probably not going to match into those places either. However, the question remains, can attending an osteopathic medical school make it more difficult to attain very competitive allopathic (ACGME) residencies? Yes, it can, but DO's still manage to match into many of them each year. Just look at the match lists for any osteopathic medical school, but in particular, the ones that have a higher rate of specialization.
 
man...that is horrible...

I know. I had a mental list of the cutest animals ever. I decided to go with the puppies. I think it was a good call.
 
2. Also, is it harder to find jobs for DO in non rural areas thus making it harder to earn a higher income?

Your assumption that rural DO's earn less than urban DO's is a poor one. The reverse may, in fact, be true. You are paid based on what you bill. DO's in rural areas may tend to do more procedures, and procedures are billed at a higher rate. For instance, their are family practice DO's in rural areas doing colonoscopies, needle biopsies, skin grafts, and a host of other things because there are no specialists around to do them. Those pay a lot more than office visits. In rural areas too, a bunch of FP's are still doing OB. The earnings of FP's who do OB are a good bit higher than those who don't. You won't see urban FP's doing that.
 
From what I've noticed though, most DOs seem to go more to the rural regions and less to the urban areas..... is this a wrong assumption?

It is true that some DO schools have historically placed an emphasis on training rurally-oriented physicians. However, you are by no means limited to working in rural areas if you are trained as a DO.
 
Do you have any sources for this? I'm not questioning the credibility. I think it is wonderful and would love to see it. :]

Really, do you need sources for this? I hope you're joking. BOTH DOs and MDs are fully licensed physicians here in the US and you will find MDs teaching at DO schools and residencies AS WELL AS DOs teaching at MDs schools and residencies.
 
1. Do MDs make more than DOs?
-Lets compare apples to apples such as family practice.
2. Also, is it harder to find jobs for DO in non rural areas thus making it harder to earn a higher income?
3. Are DO's allowed to team up with MDs? Lets say work together in the same complex.

Thanks.

1) Troll
2) Troll
3) :troll:
 
Actually I want to live in a city but am scared that there will be a tough time finding/ starting up a job if I'm a DO. I'm talking about a city that is around 300,000 or so. According to what everyone says though, this is not a problem at all. I know money isn't the most important thing in life but I sure should consider it before making such a huge investment.
 
Do you have any sources for this? I'm not questioning the credibility. I think it is wonderful and would love to see it. :]

http://www.childrenshospital.org/cli...ublevel12.html
http://www.childrenshospital.org/cli...ublevel31.html
http://www.mmc.org/mmc_body.cfm?id=816
(expand the tabs to look at the physicians)
http://www.umassmed.edu/emed/faculty/umms.aspx
http://www.lahey.org/pdf/alumnimag/a...spring2004.pdf
http://www.massgeneral.org/doctors/doctor.aspx?ID=17620
http://www.massgeneral.org/doctors/doctor.aspx?ID=17665
http://www.massgeneral.org/doctors/doctor.aspx?ID=17575
http://www.chop.edu/consumer/pat_car...26621&id=47962
http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/div....jsp?sid=87413
http://www.choa.org/default.aspx?ID=4018
http://www.mayoclinic.org/bio/10484710.html
http://www.mayoclinic.org/bio/12108871.html
http://www.mayo.edu/alumni/about-board.html
http://www.texaschildrens.org/CareCe...y/Johnson.aspx
http://lomalindahealth.org/medical-c...y-fellows.html
http://www.vanderbiltchildrens.com/i..._dir=Search!
https://medschool.mc.vanderbilt.edu/...llfaculty1.php
https://medschool.mc.vanderbilt.edu/...llfaculty1.php
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/refer...ysicianID=1786
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/staff_...=2&action=next
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/staff_...trics&tab=true
http://www.gme.duke.edu/programs/allprograms.htm
http://www.washington.edu/medicine/p...nephrology.php
http://pennhealth.com/WagForm/MainPa...ind+Provider
http://webserver01.bjc.org/sfnet/BJH...ianListing.asp
http://www.ccm.upmc.edu/education/fellows.html
http://www2.med.umich.edu/healthcent...cename=&SFlag=
http://www2.med.umich.edu/healthcent...cename=&SFlag=
http://www.csmc.edu/8237.html
http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/9536.html
http://www.uchospitals.edu/physicians/martin-burke.html
http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID...v/1/router.asp
http://www.chw.org/Applications/PPF/...ysHomePage.asp
http://www.rileyhospital.org/physici...ile.jsp?id=380
http://www.rileyhospital.org/physici...ile.jsp?id=643
http://www.rileyhospital.org/physici...ile.jsp?id=339
http://www.uihealthcare.com/depts/me...ips/index.html

Unless you belive they're hiding their DOs in a broom closet, most if not all of these institutions are teaching facilities.
 
Actually I want to live in a city but am scared that there will be a tough time finding/ starting up a job if I'm a DO. I'm talking about a city that is around 300,000 or so. According to what everyone says though, this is not a problem at all. I know money isn't the most important thing in life but I sure should consider it before making such a huge investment.

you should consider using the search function too.
 
1. Do MDs make more than DOs?
-Lets compare apples to apples such as family practice.
Thanks.

I shadowed a primary care doc in Orlando, and he actually did use OMM in his office. The only earning difference you'll see in DO v. MD is that DO's will make more if they practice OMM, which is a billable skill, and a skill MD's don't have. The doctor I shadowed billed by the technique.
 
So you guys are saying that DOs make as much as MDs. I'll hope this is true..... alsoo how is the schooling different? Is one noticeably easier? Of course I want the easiest path......
 
So you guys are saying that DOs make as much as MDs. I'll hope this is true..... alsoo how is the schooling different? Is one noticeably easier? Of course I want the easiest path......


If you want the easiest path, don't be a doctor.


medical school is a million things, easy isn't one of them. don't take a spot from someone who has the passion and drive to be a physician so that you can take the "easiest way to making the most money possible".

And no. Neither is easier then the other. Different schools have different structures. PBL, SBL, Topic Based. Some schools test weekly, some test in blocks. Depends on teh school and what's the best fit for a student.

But I stand by my orginal statement. Go do something else, if you're in this for the money ,it ain't worth it.
 
So you guys are saying that DOs make as much as MDs. I'll hope this is true.....

Why don't you go out there and shadow a few DO's at FP offices and/or go to a local hospital and get some clinical exposure, work w/ both MD's and DO's? This should give you first-hand knowledge.

alsoo how is the schooling different? Is one noticeably easier? Of course I want the easiest path......

There's no real difference in curriculum between the two traditions, except for the inclusion of OMM/OMT in the osteopathic curriculum. Medical school is medical school, whether you are talking about allopathic or osteopathic. There may be some minor differences in emphasis, perhaps, but truly, they are more alike than different and the most significant difference is that you'll have required to learn OMT/OMM at an osteopathic medical school. OMT/OMM is included on your boards. You should go find out what OMT/OMM is like and see if it's something you are curious about and willing to learn.

I'm afraid to break it to you, kid, but there is no easy path to becoming a physician. It's break-neck work and if you are searching for something easy, then don't pursue medicine, because it'll test your resolve.
 
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Yo but almost everyone that gets into medical school graduates. It's not like they kick many people out if any at all. That much I know. Though I do love medicine and such, of course I'm considering the other aspects of my future jobs.
Thanks for the help everyone, I really appreciate it.
 
Yo but almost everyone that gets into medical school graduates. It's not like they kick many people out if any at all. That much I know. Though I do love medicine and such, of course I'm considering the other aspects of my future jobs.
Thanks for the help everyone, I really appreciate it.

Why thank for the help ... you aren't listening. People have basically laughed off your questions and told you without a doubt that DOs make identical salaries to MDs etc, but two posts ago you said 'I hope what you guys are saying is true, etc.'
 
It's just extremely difficult for me to grasp how a school that accepts on average 3.2 GPA and 24 MCAT can by the end have an identical salary to a group that has an average 3.7 GPA and 31 MCAT
 
It's just extremely difficult for me to grasp how a school that accepts on average 3.2 GPA and 24 MCAT can by the end have an identical salary to a group that has an average 3.7 GPA and 31 MCAT

Okay, you are just a troll. Honestly, this is pathetic, and you should recheck your averages: try 3.5 27/28 (Western, DMU, CCOM etc) vs 3.6/30 (MD average). I'm reporting your posts and I encourage everyone to do the same to get this troll banned as soon as possible.
 
It's just extremely difficult for me to grasp how a school that accepts on average 3.2 GPA and 24 MCAT can by the end have an identical salary to a group that has an average 3.7 GPA and 31 MCAT


You are inferring that someone who has a 3.7 GPA and/or 31+ MCAT will be a better physician than someone with a sub 3.2 and/or 24 MCAT and should therefore be paid more.

Not to say anything against our allopathic friends, but I for one am SO thankful for the D.O. option in that they accept those of use with sub-par GPA's and MCAT's.

(Don't get me wrong...even if I had a great GPA I would still go D.O. I wouldn't even consider M.D. unless it was my only option...but with my GPA...it's not even an option! :laugh: )

I'm certainly no doctor yet, but what I do know is that there is a whole lot more to being a good doctor than just good grades.
 
It's just extremely difficult for me to grasp how a school that accepts on average 3.2 GPA and 24 MCAT can by the end have an identical salary to a group that has an average 3.7 GPA and 31 MCAT

That is because you accept the myth that these numbers are meaningful beyond a certain limited value. But beyond that, you are not looking at all around you and you certainly aren't listening, blinded by your own ego and perceptions of reality.

I recommend reading Malcolm Gladwell's new book. It may open your eyes to the reality that higher numbers (beyond a certain threshold value) do not necessarily equal greater success.

You are probably in for a rude awakening if you do ever end up in a medical school. It's a whole new ballgame and you better be ready to play, or it'll eat you alive.
 
NO, the numbers are important ... there is no getting around that. There is nothing that says a 3.7/31 will make a better physician than a 3.2/24, but this is how medical school selects applicants and there has to be a reason why they use these indicators. HOWEVER, the gap between established DO schools and your run of the mill MD school is honestly nothing. The time of DO students being less qualified number wise than MD students is gone, and people should be grateful to get into any US med school.
 
NO, the numbers are important ... there is no getting around that.

Please re-read my post. I never said that numbers are not important. I said the numbers are not meaningful beyond a certain limited purpose. We have nothing to prove and nothing to defend. The point is, if you are in medical school, a lot of your success is going to depend on what you do while you are there.

I understand why people feel that these numbers are so important, though. It really consumes your life before medical school. After you matriculate, there are so many more important things and factors to contend with.

This is a fool's argument anyway. If the OP doesn't feel comfortable attending an osteopathic medical school, not saying that he or she could even gain acceptance, then the OP shouldn't apply to or attend one. We shouldn't have to convince the OP of anything. That's his or her job.
 
Please re-read my post. I never said that numbers are not important. I said the numbers are not meaningful beyond a certain limited purpose. We have nothing to prove and nothing to defend. The point is, if you are in medical school, a lot of your success is going to depend on what you do while you are there.

I understand why people feel that these numbers are so important, though. It really consumes your life before medical school. After you matriculate, there are so many more important things and factors to contend with.

This is a fool's argument anyway. If the OP doesn't feel comfortable attending an osteopathic medical school, not saying that he or she could even gain acceptance, then the OP shouldn't apply to or attend one. We shouldn't have to convince the OP of anything. That's his or her job.

No, I know. I really wasn't responding to your post, and I agree completely.
 
Well just so you guys know.... I'm one of those low end MD/ high end DO applicants (3.5 GPA 29MCAT) and I think that my chances of MD acceptance are relatively low so I'm rather sure I'm going to have to go the DO route. Everyone I've talked to that I know (MD doctors) have bashed the DO route but I of course know that these are misconceptions. My fear is though: I want to live in a 300,000 person city that is rather competitive in many fields, so really I just want to reassure myself that this is the right way to go even if its not the most prestigious way.

I'm not saying that numbers are important; because a doctor first needs to be a human being. But honestly, each one of you knows that there is a significant number in the statistics of MD and DO acceptance, and hopefully..... this difference of the type of degree I have wont "bite me in the back"
 
Well just so you guys know.... I'm one of those low end MD/ high end DO applicants (3.5 GPA 29MCAT) and I think that my chances of MD acceptance are relatively low so I'm rather sure I'm going to have to go the DO route. Everyone I've talked to that I know (MD doctors) have bashed the DO route but I of course know that these are misconceptions. My fear is though: I want to live in a 300,000 person city that is rather competitive in many fields, so really I just want to reassure myself that this is the right way to go even if its not the most prestigious way.

I'm not saying that numbers are important; because a doctor first needs to be a human being. But honestly, each one of you knows that there is a significant number in the statistics of MD and DO acceptance, and hopefully..... this difference of the type of degree I have wont "bite me in the back"

If you'd feel more comfortable going the allopathic route, why don't you just re-take the MCAT and score higher? It will take some work, but it doesn't appear out of your reach. There are also things you can do to further demonstrate your academic ability. It doesn't usually make sense to settle when you feel like you'd really want something else, which I sense you do. Also, your numbers are not actually that massively impressive for many osteopathic medical schools these days, either. People have been rejected with numbers higher than yours; numbers aren't everything in admissions, either, although they are definitely important.

If you decide that going the osteopathic route is not going to be settling for you, then it'll be here for you as an option. Unless you have a particularly good reason to exclude either path, I'd say it would be smart to apply broadly to both allopathic and osteopathic medical schools.
 
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Well just so you guys know.... I'm one of those low end MD/ high end DO applicants (3.5 GPA 29MCAT) and I think that my chances of MD acceptance are relatively low so I'm rather sure I'm going to have to go the DO route. Everyone I've talked to that I know (MD doctors) have bashed the DO route but I of course know that these are misconceptions.

That's a huge lie. A. You've probably talked to less than 3 doctors, and that's a pretty low n to be statistically significant. B. No doctor you spoke with 'completely bashed the DO route' because they are mature adults, not 18 year olds getting their jollies by bashing DOs on the internet on valentine's day. C. You won't get in anywhere if your personality shines through in an interview.

My fear is though: I want to live in a 300,000 person city that is rather competitive in many fields, so really I just want to reassure myself that this is the right way to go even if its not the most prestigious way.

Prestigious??? What are you even talking about. If you feel like it isn't prestigious enough, why don't you retake the MCAT and only apply to MD schools, clearly you don't feel comfortable with this 'route.' Also, google doctors in your city, see if there are any DOs ... if so, then magically it can be done.


I'm not saying that numbers are important; because a doctor first needs to be a human being. But honestly, each one of you knows that there is a significant number in the statistics of MD and DO acceptance, and hopefully..... this difference of the type of degree I have wont "bite me in the back"

Can you get me the stastics you are using to make this claim?? Can you show me the significant differences between established MD vs established DO schools?? I am 'one here' and I don't know it. Please, enlighten me. OHHH WAIT ... whoops, I forgot, you're a complete troll. You don't respond to a single post anyone says in this thread because you don't want advice, you don't really have concerns, and for all we know ... you aren't even applying. You're trolling, period.
 
I don't know what this immature term trolling means but I guess its something I will eventually learn at DO school. Anyways really though, I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything; I'm actually really considering this route but have some fears as you might expect from anyone. I don't care what you say, but there IS a difference between DO and MD. Even though it isn't formally admitted MDs are more respected unfortunately. Though I can't prove to you anything like this or that MDs are of higher quality, all I can tell you is that numbers are numbers. Can any of you explain to me why there is such a difference between in statistics between the 2 types of schools? Also.... are there any new DO schools that are opening soon?

Thanks for the help, and just so you know, I'm reading every word written, you troll.
 
I don't know what this immature term trolling means but I guess its something I will eventually learn at DO school. Anyways really though, I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything; I'm actually really considering this route but have some fears as you might expect from anyone. I don't care what you say, but there IS a difference between DO and MD. Even though it isn't formally admitted MDs are more respected unfortunately. Though I can't prove to you anything like this or that MDs are of higher quality, all I can tell you is that numbers are numbers. Can any of you explain to me why there is such a difference between in statistics between the 2 types of schools? Also.... are there any new DO schools that are opening soon?

Thanks for the help, and just so you know, I'm reading every word written, you troll.

You might be reading, but you sure as heck aren't listening. You do realize that a number of the people who responded here are bona fide medical students, residents, and fellows, right? Are you claiming to know more about the process than those who are either going through it, or have completed major milestones on the very path that you want to gain entry into? I don't enjoy pointing that out, but your arrogance is astonishing to me.

There's nothing I or anyone else can say to convince you, because you've already decided. Come back with a truly open mind and I think you'll get a different reception and you may actually learn a thing or two.
 
I don't know what this immature term trolling means but I guess its something I will eventually learn at DO school. Anyways really though, I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything; I'm actually really considering this route but have some fears as you might expect from anyone. I don't care what you say, but there IS a difference between DO and MD. Even though it isn't formally admitted MDs are more respected unfortunately. Though I can't prove to you anything like this or that MDs are of higher quality, all I can tell you is that numbers are numbers. Can any of you explain to me why there is such a difference between in statistics between the 2 types of schools? Also.... are there any new DO schools that are opening soon?

Thanks for the help, and just so you know, I'm reading every word written, you troll.

Are you like 12 years old?? Jesus Christ. First, a troll is someone who has no real intent on a forum besides bickering and starting arguments, ie you. Second, you are being a jerk. Third, I don't care WHAT YOU say ... medicine and science is based on fact, not truth. You 'swear' means absolutely nothing to me. Can you show me testimonials from a big enough n of the population that shows MDs are more respected than DOs? Can you give me the sample size that states a. We know that there are two separate medical degrees in the US and b. Knowing this, we all respect MDs far more. Fourth, if you can't prove to me that MDs are of a higher quality, then you know nothing ... and are just talking out of your ASS. And if the 'numbers are numbers' where are those states on established DO vs established MD schools I'm waiting on?? For someone who doesn't care much about fact, and uses the ole' 'I've spoken to over 2 doctors and I swear that xxx is true' you sure seem to be relying on these 'numbers.' Five, there isn't a big difference ... that's my point. Here:

Western: http://prospective.westernu.edu/osteopathic/competitive

3.56/27, estblished in the 70s.

DMU: http://www.dmu.edu/com/do/class_profile/

3.64, 27

Temple: http://www.temple.edu/medicine/admissions/entering_profile.htm

3.62, 31

NYMC: http://www.nymc.edu/admit/medical/info/faq.asp

3.5, 30

Can you tell me where the huge difference is??? The identical GPA or the 2 pt MCAT difference????

Yes, there are DO and MD schools opening 'soon,' do a ****ing google search. TROLL!!
 
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