Old Non-Traditional Student

[MedEpi_to_be]

Hello!

I am 41 and I have been an Epidemiologist for 15 years. My undergrad (2001) was in Biology and I have two C's in my prereq classes. The rest are A's and B's. Overall my undergraduate science GPA is not stellar...roughly a 3.1 which is why I never applied 20 years ago. I wasn't a slacker, but I had had an incident my second semester sophomore year that became a driver behind the lower grades. I went on to earn my MPH in Epidemiology in 2005 and I had a 3.7 gpa. I am a first author on 8-9 manuscripts, co-authored many more. Currently I am work for a university, but I am embedded at the local health department. I am working on my EMT certification because I would like the experience and I enjoy helping my community (so regardless of what happens I would continue). Additionally, I have TA over 17 classes in my 5 years at the university. My goal is to become either an Family Medicine or Internal Medicine doc. with the ultimate goal of working for an FHQC that focused on underserved populations. My city has a few city run STD clinics and I would love to work for one of them.

So now after my ramble..my questions.
1. How many people are in their mid-late 40's and matriculating into medical school (either allopathic or osteopathic)?
2. In the wise opinion of you fine people should I retake all of the prerequisite courses? I noticed some schools like Georgetown are requiring course work to be completed with in the previous 5 years?
3. If the answer to 2 is No, should I only retake the 2 classes (although I would want to retake the entire General Chem and O Chem to refresh myself) in which I had a C in and add other courses like Cell Biology. I don't have the ability to take a formal post bacc, but since I work for a university I can take courses for a deeply discounted price,
4. My plan is to apply for med school in 5-6 years. When should I start my MCAT prep?

Thanks everyone! I have an excited calmness over my decision to go back. My husband is on board and by the time I apply by older two kids will be finished with college.

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[2010houston]

Good luck to you!
1- not that many but there are definitely some; you won’t be alone.
2- I would say no. retake the stuff you were planning to ; retake anything you want refreshed (since you have opportunity to do this at reduced cost)- but not necessary to redo everything. If this eliminates Georgetown , that’s ok. having a few recent science grades should be sufficient at many places.
3- as above
4- differing opinions and depends on how you study and learn . .. a year-ish before you TAKE it should be more than adequate.

 

[acstylin]

I’m 40 and just got accepted to start in 2020. Before coming back to school 3 years ago, my GPA was about 2.4. I averaged about a 3.7 in my classes over three years and brought up my overall GPA to 3.05 (per amcas). My research and med experience can’t hold a candle to yours. I had some good experiences though and a good story. I gave up a lucrative career and made HUGE sacrifices to get here. This was good enough for two MD acceptances and a bunch of DO invites (which I didn’t attend due to being accepted to my #1 MD program). You’re going to need a few classes if you plan to do well on the MCAT. There is some Ochem on it but not a ton BUT there is a lot of Biochem and you need a decent foundation in ochem to do well in Biochem. I highly recommend taking Biochem the semester before you take the MCAT so it’s fresh. You can decide if that merits retaking Ochem or not. You need a good background in both gen chems and physics too. You may be able to get that from MCAT prep. All the psych you need can be found on the Khan Academy 100 page document (google it). CARS just needs hours and hours and hours of practice. No shortcuts or secrets there.
Cell Bio helps for the MCAT too. Dev Bio could help (even though I didn’t take it until after MCAT). I did take a physiology class that helped a TON. You’ll find a lot of physiology stuff in the bio section. You don’t NEED dev bio but it will help understand the signaling stuff- like I said, I didn’t take it but I can see it would have helped.
Finally, take the MCAT as soon as you can after all these science classes are completed so it’s fresh. Study for the MCAT like your life depends on it. I did it for about 5-10 hours per week for about 8 months before. The two months right before taking it was 8-10 hours per day, 6 days per week. No breaks. It was intense and I hated it. I scored a 514 though and I have no regrets. For the record, I have 6 young kids and a mortgage so we just had to make it work. Feel free to PM me if you want. Best wishes!

 

[Goro]

Hello!

I am 41 and I have been an Epidemiologist for 15 years. My undergrad (2001) was in Biology and I have two C's in my prereq classes. The rest are A's and B's. Overall my undergraduate science GPA is not stellar...roughly a 3.1 which is why I never applied 20 years ago. I wasn't a slacker, but I had had an incident my second semester sophomore year that became a driver behind the lower grades. I went on to earn my MPH in Epidemiology in 2005 and I had a 3.7 gpa. I am a first author on 8-9 manuscripts, co-authored many more. Currently I am work for a university, but I am embedded at the local health department. I am working on my EMT certification because I would like the experience and I enjoy helping my community (so regardless of what happens I would continue). Additionally, I have TA over 17 classes in my 5 years at the university. My goal is to become either an Family Medicine or Internal Medicine doc. with the ultimate goal of working for an FHQC that focused on underserved populations. My city has a few city run STD clinics and I would love to work for one of them.

So now after my ramble..my questions.
1. How many people are in their mid-late 40's and matriculating into medical school (either allopathic or osteopathic)?
2. In the wise opinion of you fine people should I retake all of the prerequisite courses? I noticed some schools like Georgetown are requiring course work to be completed with in the previous 5 years?
3. If the answer to 2 is No, should I only retake the 2 classes (although I would want to retake the entire General Chem and O Chem to refresh myself) in which I had a C in and add other courses like Cell Biology. I don't have the ability to take a formal post bacc, but since I work for a university I can take courses for a deeply discounted price,
4. My plan is to apply for med school in 5-6 years. When should I start my MCAT prep?

Thanks everyone! I have an excited calmness over my decision to go back. My husband is on board and by the time I apply by older two kids will be finished with college.

1) Very rare. Our oldest matriculant ever was 53.

2) If you wish to do well on the MCAT, I recommend retakes.

3) You shouldn't do a formal post-bac...those are more for career-switchers from non-science backgrounds. An SMP might be better for you

4) You start your MCAT prep wehn you good and ready for it, preferably after your DIY post-bac or SMP.

the MPH GPA will not be counted by MD schools but will by DO.
read this:

• Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

 

[Cornfed101]

Why are you waiting 5-6 years to apply?

 

[OwurayawMD]

I’m 40 and just got accepted to start in 2020. Before coming back to school 3 years ago, my GPA was about 2.4. I averaged about a 3.7 in my classes over three years and brought up my overall GPA to 3.05 (per amcas). My research and med experience can’t hold a candle to yours. I had some good experiences though and a good story. I gave up a lucrative career and made HUGE sacrifices to get here. This was good enough for two MD acceptances and a bunch of DO invites (which I didn’t attend due to being accepted to my #1 MD program). You’re going to need a few classes if you plan to do well on the MCAT. There is some Ochem on it but not a ton BUT there is a lot of Biochem and you need a decent foundation in ochem to do well in Biochem. I highly recommend taking Biochem the semester before you take the MCAT so it’s fresh. You can decide if that merits retaking Ochem or not. You need a good background in both gen chems and physics too. You may be able to get that from MCAT prep. All the psych you need can be found on the Khan Academy 100 page document (google it). CARS just needs hours and hours and hours of practice. No shortcuts or secrets there.
Cell Bio helps for the MCAT too. Dev Bio could help (even though I didn’t take it until after MCAT). I did take a physiology class that helped a TON. You’ll find a lot of physiology stuff in the bio section. You don’t NEED dev bio but it will help understand the signaling stuff- like I said, I didn’t take it but I can see it would have helped.
Finally, take the MCAT as soon as you can after all these science classes are completed so it’s fresh. Study for the MCAT like your life depends on it. I did it for about 5-10 hours per week for about 8 months before. The two months right before taking it was 8-10 hours per day, 6 days per week. No breaks. It was intense and I hated it. I scored a 514 though and I have no regrets. For the record, I have 6 young kids and a mortgage so we just had to make it work. Feel free to PM me if you want. Best wishes!

nice

 

[gyngyn]

The 99th percentile in age for women applicants is 37.
The 99th percentile for matriculants is 33.
The number of 47 year old matriculants is vanishingly small.

https://www.aamc.org/system/files/d/1/321468-factstablea6.pdf

 

[deleted367183]

I will be honest, just speaking from my own experience. I matriculated at 37 and wouldn't have done it even one year later. I think 37 was already too old. But your story is not my story! Good luck!

 

[esob]

As others have stated, there are very few, but that doesn't make it impossible.

 

[MedEpi_to_be]

I’m 40 and just got accepted to start in 2020. Before coming back to school 3 years ago, my GPA was about 2.4. I averaged about a 3.7 in my classes over three years and brought up my overall GPA to 3.05 (per amcas). My research and med experience can’t hold a candle to yours. I had some good experiences though and a good story. I gave up a lucrative career and made HUGE sacrifices to get here. This was good enough for two MD acceptances and a bunch of DO invites (which I didn’t attend due to being accepted to my #1 MD program). You’re going to need a few classes if you plan to do well on the MCAT. There is some Ochem on it but not a ton BUT there is a lot of Biochem and you need a decent foundation in ochem to do well in Biochem. I highly recommend taking Biochem the semester before you take the MCAT so it’s fresh. You can decide if that merits retaking Ochem or not. You need a good background in both gen chems and physics too. You may be able to get that from MCAT prep. All the psych you need can be found on the Khan Academy 100 page document (google it). CARS just needs hours and hours and hours of practice. No shortcuts or secrets there.
Cell Bio helps for the MCAT too. Dev Bio could help (even though I didn’t take it until after MCAT). I did take a physiology class that helped a TON. You’ll find a lot of physiology stuff in the bio section. You don’t NEED dev bio but it will help understand the signaling stuff- like I said, I didn’t take it but I can see it would have helped.
Finally, take the MCAT as soon as you can after all these science classes are completed so it’s fresh. Study for the MCAT like your life depends on it. I did it for about 5-10 hours per week for about 8 months before. The two months right before taking it was 8-10 hours per day, 6 days per week. No breaks. It was intense and I hated it. I scored a 514 though and I have no regrets. For the record, I have 6 young kids and a mortgage so we just had to make it work. Feel free to PM me if you want. Best wishes!

Thank you so much! This gives me hope. I realized the school I work for offers Pre-Health advising and even though I am a non-degree seeking student they will still advise me. I have a meeting set this Friday and they have a list of all of the requirements for all of the schools I am interested in. I am refreshing my biology though Khan Academy so I can take cell biology instead of general biology. I also had a talk with my husband and I will apply to schools within a 3 hour train ride so that opens up two additional cities each with 3 med schools and a DO school.

 

[MedEpi_to_be]

Why are you waiting 5-6 years to apply?

I have 2 teenagers (16 year olds) that I will use my tuition remission to put through undergrad (or at least partially). Plus this will give me the opportunity to retake and refresh my pre-reqs. It could be earlier if I complete my prereqs faster than expected and they have scholarships. It was the deal that I have with my husband so I can go back myself.

 

[MedEpi_to_be]

1) Very rare. Our oldest matriculant ever was 53.

2) If you wish to do well on the MCAT, I recommend retakes.

3) You shouldn't do a formal post-bac...those are more for career-switchers from non-science backgrounds. An SMP might be better for you

4) You start your MCAT prep wehn you good and ready for it, preferably after your DIY post-bac or SMP.

the MPH GPA will not be counted by MD schools but will by DO.
read this:

• Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

That is good to know about the MPH GPA and the DO schools. I didn't realize MD schools will not factor in graduate level courses.

 

[MedEpi_to_be]

Good luck to you!
1- not that many but there are definitely some; you won’t be alone.
2- I would say no. retake the stuff you were planning to ; retake anything you want refreshed (since you have opportunity to do this at reduced cost)- but not necessary to redo everything. If this eliminates Georgetown , that’s ok. having a few recent science grades should be sufficient at many places.
3- as above
4- differing opinions and depends on how you study and learn . .. a year-ish before you TAKE it should be more than adequate.

I reread Georgetown and they require some undergrad or graduate level of course work in the past 5 years. Thank you very much for the advice and info!

 

[Cornfed101]

I have 2 teenagers (16 year olds) that I will use my tuition remission to put through undergrad (or at least partially).

Are you allowed to do that? I would assume that your employer doesn't just give you cash for tuition remission and free reign for how to use it, but I could be wrong.

 

[MedEpi_to_be]

Are you allowed to do that? I would assume that your employer doesn't just give you cash for tuition remission and free reign for how to use it, but I could be wrong.

I work for a university, so it is part of our benefits package to have our dependents go to school for a reduced tuition. Academia doesn't pay much, but this is one perk!

 

[MedEpi_to_be]

I work for a university, so it is part of our benefits package to have our dependents go to school for a reduced tuition. Academia doesn't pay much, but this is one perk!

*go to their university for reduced tuition.

 

[MedEpi_to_be]

I’m 40 and just got accepted to start in 2020. Before coming back to school 3 years ago, my GPA was about 2.4. I averaged about a 3.7 in my classes over three years and brought up my overall GPA to 3.05 (per amcas). My research and med experience can’t hold a candle to yours. I had some good experiences though and a good story. I gave up a lucrative career and made HUGE sacrifices to get here. This was good enough for two MD acceptances and a bunch of DO invites (which I didn’t attend due to being accepted to my #1 MD program). You’re going to need a few classes if you plan to do well on the MCAT. There is some Ochem on it but not a ton BUT there is a lot of Biochem and you need a decent foundation in ochem to do well in Biochem. I highly recommend taking Biochem the semester before you take the MCAT so it’s fresh. You can decide if that merits retaking Ochem or not. You need a good background in both gen chems and physics too. You may be able to get that from MCAT prep. All the psych you need can be found on the Khan Academy 100 page document (google it). CARS just needs hours and hours and hours of practice. No shortcuts or secrets there.
Cell Bio helps for the MCAT too. Dev Bio could help (even though I didn’t take it until after MCAT). I did take a physiology class that helped a TON. You’ll find a lot of physiology stuff in the bio section. You don’t NEED dev bio but it will help understand the signaling stuff- like I said, I didn’t take it but I can see it would have helped.
Finally, take the MCAT as soon as you can after all these science classes are completed so it’s fresh. Study for the MCAT like your life depends on it. I did it for about 5-10 hours per week for about 8 months before. The two months right before taking it was 8-10 hours per day, 6 days per week. No breaks. It was intense and I hated it. I scored a 514 though and I have no regrets. For the record, I have 6 young kids and a mortgage so we just had to make it work. Feel free to PM me if you want. Best wishes!

And congratulations on your acceptance! This is all incredibly helpful. I have 3, two will be out of high school and the youngest will be in elementary school. I haven't taken Biochem before so I will need to take that, which means Ochem. I maybe able to refresh Chemistry on my own. It is truly amazing what I don't remember after 20 years and I was 1 class shy of a chemistry minor. Were you working while taking classes?

 

[acstylin]

And congratulations on your acceptance! This is all incredibly helpful. I have 3, two will be out of high school and the youngest will be in elementary school. I haven't taken Biochem before so I will need to take that, which means Ochem. I maybe able to refresh Chemistry on my own. It is truly amazing what I don't remember after 20 years and I was 1 class shy of a chemistry minor. Were you working while taking classes?

Not working while taking classes. To pay for this endeavor, I left each summer to go to the highest paying state in the nation for what I do (building elevators) which is San Jose, CA. I worked 80 hr weeks from the day after my last final to the day before classes started again. It sucked. My poor wife stayed back home in Utah with all 6 kids while I was gone. It did the trick though. Best wishes!

 

[Cornfed101]

And congratulations on your acceptance! This is all incredibly helpful. I have 3, two will be out of high school and the youngest will be in elementary school. I haven't taken Biochem before so I will need to take that, which means Ochem. I maybe able to refresh Chemistry on my own. It is truly amazing what I don't remember after 20 years and I was 1 class shy of a chemistry minor. Were you working while taking classes?

During my postbacc I worked 25 hours a week, took 2-3 classes and studied 20 hours a week for the MCAT. It's definitely doable, but you have to be really purposeful with your time. I studied for the MCAT over a 9 month period, which is normal for those of us who have to work.

 

[esob]

I had to get my older two kids graduated before I could start med school (special needs, so it was a full time job), and I still have two at home. I explained this to almost all of my interviewers (as the reason for my late start) and most responded favorably to it, so taking care of your kids before pursuing your own goals is something that seems to resonate with most people I think.

 

[MedEpi_to_be]

During my postbacc I worked 25 hours a week, took 2-3 classes and studied 20 hours a week for the MCAT. It's definitely doable, but you have to be really purposeful with your time. I studied for the MCAT over a 9 month period, which is normal for those of us who have to work.

Thanks! I work 40 hours, so probably 1-2 classes a semester..more like 1 per semester this year since I also TA a graduate course. I am refreshing Biology using Khan Academy for an hour or two every night. Once I start taking classes I know this will increase. Thanks about the info regarding the MCAT.

Not working while taking classes. To pay for this endeavor, I left each summer to go to the highest paying state in the nation for what I do (building elevators) which is San Jose, CA. I worked 80 hr weeks from the day after my last final to the day before classes started again. It sucked. My poor wife stayed back home in Utah with all 6 kids while I was gone. It did the trick though. Best wishes!

Wow! Both you and your wife are amazing! Thanks and Best wishes to you as well!

 

[MedEpi_to_be]

I had to get my older two kids graduated before I could start med school (special needs, so it was a full time job), and I still have two at home. I explained this to almost all of my interviewers (as the reason for my late start) and most responded favorably to it, so taking care of your kids before pursuing your own goals is something that seems to resonate with most people I think.

Thanks! I am not the only one! I couldn't change course on them without making sure they were ok and set. I honestly didn't think going back this late was possible and hearing all of this makes me realize I can do it!

 

[never-too-late]

1) I was recently accepted DO in my 40's
2)I would do some practice MCAT tests to see what you need to re-take, don't re-take more than you need to!
3) I had 1 C in a pre-req (O-chem), so really only re-take what you actually need to re-take
4) Start NOW! Seriously, why wait so long? With your background, I think you have a compelling narrative that you know what you want to do and have been doing something close enough for long enough that you know what you're doing. Don't wait, do your MCAT prep now, take some practice tests and see what you need to strengthen. Also, the course work itself isn't necessarily going to strengthen your test performance. You won't know until you at least try test prep and practice tests!

 

[MedEpi_to_be]

Thanks! I started reviewing Bio using Khan Academy and plan on prepping for the MCAT along the way. I am set to retake General Chem in the Fall. I had a C in O Chem 2 and I never took Biochem so I figured it wouldn’t hurt to restart the whole Chem series. I am hoping to boost my GPA. My science GPA is at a 3.1.
I found out two weeks ago that my work (I work at large university) will cover my classes at 100% and if I take the whole series, plus cell bio I will have enough credits to present my information to the advisory committee and perhaps have a letter from them.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

I hate to be the negative voice, but you’ll be 46 at matriculation, 50 at graduation, and 53 once you start in practice. You’re entering FM with a goal of underserved populations which mean salary is $220k max. You’ll have around $150-200k in student load debt. Regardless of the amount you’ll be roughly 65 once you repay. You lose almost ten years of retirement contributions just from school and loan repayments. You have a young kid who might be starting college the same time you start repaying. And that same kid would be a teenager when you might get accepted, possibly forcing you to move your family.

While it’s great to have the goals you do, I’m just not sure it’s fiduciarily responsible when you are sacrificing over $1 million in lifetime earnings potential for what may be a 10-15 year career. Is it worth all that?

Just my 2 cents.

 

[GreenDuck12]

While I agree that this may not be the most financially prudent thing to do (it rarely is for nontraditional students who are already midway through their careers) I think some of the assumptions here should be taken with a grain of salt. In my reading of the thread, OP did not make any mention of their current salary so the statement that the OP Is sacrificing "over $1 million in lifetime earnings" is likely not accurate (if I missed this, then by all means dismiss this point). Lost income is something all nontraditional students should take into account as well as the loss of the magic of compounding returns. Additionally, assuming OP graduates at 53 and does go into family medicine in underserved populations, PSLF could come into play after 120 monthly payments. Many residency locations are non-profits and qualify for this so OP could start PSLF in residency and would only need 7 years of practice to pay off loans, and OP could do by 60.

My point with the above is that projecting all of this is quite difficult, especially without significantly more details which the OP should not share on this forum. Financial prudence is one consideration that the OP, and all of us, frankly, must take into account when looking to start medical school later in life but there are others.

 

[Perseverance7779311]

No one can determine your future for you, but you and God. If the path if medicine is what you want to do, go for it...dont let your age or anyone else’s opinion stop you. My mother just graduated from law school at the age of 58. if you do decide to begin this path, you will need to seek advice from physician mentors and a medical school admissions counselor at the very least. This is not a path to wing on your own. Best of luck to you!

 

[CyrilFiggis]

Additionally, assuming OP graduates at 53 and does go into family medicine in underserved populations, PSLF could come into play after 120 monthly payments. Many residency locations are non-profits and qualify for this so OP could start PSLF in residency and would only need 7 years of practice to pay off loans, and OP could do by 60. .

Only 1% of PSLF applicants in 2018-2019 according to the DoE had their loans discharged. If we’re talking assumptions, no one should even consider PSLF as a means to pay off loans.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Only 1% of PSLF applicants in 2018-2019 according to the DoE had their loans discharged. If we’re talking assumptions, no one should even consider PSLF as a means to pay off loans.

Look at the data more closely and you will see most folks who applied to have their debt discharged were not eligible due to not meeting the number of payments.

edited to include article
link

 

[CyrilFiggis]

Look at the data more closely and you will see most folks who applied to have their debt discharged were not eligible due to not meeting the number of payments.

edited to include article
link

1200 approvals is still not good enough odds for me to see it as a go-to strategy.

You’ve disagreed with every comment I’ve made and I get it. SND needs to have encouraging voices like yours, but I’m being pragmatic. OP is a university staffed epidemiologist who makes a reasonable upper middle class income. She has a specific passion and sees becoming a PCP as a means to fulfill that. However, that means losing her salary and the earnings potential, taking on six figures tuition debt with no guarantee of discharge to have a career that may provide a financial return of investment by the time she is of age or wanting to retire. If those economic burdens do not outweigh the non-economic benefits of the career satisfaction that MAY come with this change then she should do it. But from a straight dollars and cents perspective it’s a risky proposition.

And this is all coming from an older non-trad who is 9 years into his career change.

 

[GreenDuck12]

1200 approvals is still not good enough odds for me to see it as a go-to strategy.

You’ve disagreed with every comment I’ve made and I get it. SND needs to have encouraging voices like yours, but I’m being pragmatic. OP is a university staffed epidemiologist who makes a reasonable upper middle class income. She has a specific passion and sees becoming a PCP as a means to fulfill that. However, that means losing her salary and the earnings potential, taking on six figures tuition debt with no guarantee of discharge to have a career that may provide a financial return of investment by the time she is of age or wanting to retire. If those economic burdens do not outweigh the non-economic benefits of the career satisfaction that MAY come with this change then she should do it. But from a straight dollars and cents perspective it’s a risky proposition.

And this is all coming from an older non-trad who is 9 years into his career change.

Actually, I agree with you that going to medical school as a non traditional student is financially risky. My point with the first post above is to highlight that there are options for how to do this that lessen the financial risk. And I agree that PSLF is risky - it may be subject to legislative change at any time. But with over 80% of the folks who filed for it either not being eligible due to number of payments or having the wrong type of loans, I can understand why the approval rates look so dismally low. However, there are many state and local loan repayment programs in areas that desperately need FM practitioners. I plan on participating in one such program. My point is, again, the OP has options for how to approach the financial side of medical school and should carefully consider all of their options before deciding one way or the other.

 

[MedEpi_to_be]

1200 approvals is still not good enough odds for me to see it as a go-to strategy.

You’ve disagreed with every comment I’ve made and I get it. SND needs to have encouraging voices like yours, but I’m being pragmatic. OP is a university staffed epidemiologist who makes a reasonable upper middle class income. She has a specific passion and sees becoming a PCP as a means to fulfill that. However, that means losing her salary and the earnings potential, taking on six figures tuition debt with no guarantee of discharge to have a career that may provide a financial return of investment by the time she is of age or wanting to retire. If those economic burdens do not outweigh the non-economic benefits of the career satisfaction that MAY come with this change then she should do it. But from a straight dollars and cents perspective it’s a risky proposition.
And this is all coming from an older non-trad who is 9 years into his career change.

Economic burdens weigh heavily on my decision to return. In fact, this the the only requirement from my husband was that we can do this sensibly. There is local funding for repayment if I work at a designated FHCQ in the area after residency and I would explore/apply for scholarships. One point of clarification as university staffed epidemiologist I make closer to the first quartile of the middle class income range for our location. This is on par for MPH level epis at other universities in our area. The max salary for a FM doc would close to triple my current income. Another option would be to continue to live on one income after residency and put the majority of my income toward the med school debt and retirement.