Older and Age for Residency Selection

[Birdstrike]

You know you should never comment about a woman's weight.

Oh, yes you absolutely can. It goes like this,

"Have you lost weight? You look like you lost some weight lately."

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[HoboCommander]

I'm also a non-trad having started med school at age 25. But in residency there are 40+ year olds with PhD dual degrees resenting being an intern having to take orders from 28 year old seniors. They give such an attitude about it. After working with attendings as a PhD, it flips their whole world upside down to have to obey their younger R2's and R3's. So much drama comes out of it. Things would work out so much better if interns acted like interns and medical students acted like medical students. There's a certain submissive role that older people just can't take.

 

[jakeislove]

You know you should never comment about a woman's weight.

Sometimes it helps.

 

[MurumErumpendum]

This is definitely my favorite SDN post of the month. Thank you for this. It should be required reading for all students. EBM has been trying to influence the "way we do it" for a generation now and is still just "another opinion" to most people

So are you saying that it's good that evidence based medicine cannot be implemented? Unclear.

On another note, respect is something that's earned. Just because you're older or have more seniority doesn't mean that much, even though this flies in the face of the hierarchical medical field. Those MD/PhDs probably do know much more than your average 28 year old resident. Some people might take an issue with age, but I think in most cases lack of respect isn't an age issue but rather something else, like disrespecting someone due to their lack of knowledge, intelligence, etc.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

So are you saying that it's good that evidence based medicine cannot be implemented? Unclear.

On another note, respect is something that's earned. Just because you're older or have more seniority doesn't mean that much, even though this flies in the face of the hierarchical medical field. Those MD/PhDs probably do know much more than your average 28 year old resident. Some people might take an issue with age, but I think in most cases lack of respect isn't an age issue but rather something else, like disrespecting someone due to their lack of knowledge, intelligence, etc.

Those MD/PhDs that are just starting residency may know more about some basic science compared to their senior residents, but they do NOT know more about how to be a resident. In medicine, that matters.

 

[HoboCommander]

Seniority especially matters in surgical fields. It's a nightmare being a young R2 to an older MD/PhD intern who thinks he knows more than you (and does know more basic sciences), talks like he is too important for the scutwork that you assign him, likes to correct you when you try to teach him something, tells the patient something different than what you as an R2 recently did, etc. There is a military-like culture and ranking system in the surgical fields and problems occur when this is upset. I often see older interns (or medical students) create these problems.

 

[Raryn]

(As a resident) I've worked with at least one medical student that I'm fairly certain had kids older than me. I treated them no differently than I would any other med student, still gave them assignments, still sent them home if it was slow and they had had a long week, etc. Never got flack for it from the student.

I've done the same for interns (though the age difference wasn't as wide) and god forbid if someone lower down than me on the totem pole tried to pull rank due to age. It would not end well. Thankfully, I haven't run into anyone with that attitude. I don't think they'd last long in a medical environment.

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm also a non-trad having started med school at age 25. But in residency there are 40+ year olds with PhD dual degrees resenting being an intern having to take orders from 28 year old seniors. They give such an attitude about it. After working with attendings as a PhD, it flips their whole world upside down to have to obey their younger R2's and R3's. So much drama comes out of it. Things would work out so much better if interns acted like interns and medical students acted like medical students. There's a certain submissive role that older people just can't take.

Meh. I'll grant that some nontrads have trouble adjusting, but I don't think that's the norm. By the time you're an intern, you've gone through two years of med student rotations where you've been well-acculturated to being at the bottom of the totem pole. I also would argue that there's some discomfort in the other direction, as many trad seniors feel uncomfortable giving orders to a student or intern who's older than them. And then those expectations become self-fulfilled prophecies in both directions, even if there's just a disagreement or a personality difference.

So are you saying that it's good that evidence based medicine cannot be implemented? Unclear.

On another note, respect is something that's earned. Just because you're older or have more seniority doesn't mean that much, even though this flies in the face of the hierarchical medical field. Those MD/PhDs probably do know much more than your average 28 year old resident. Some people might take an issue with age, but I think in most cases lack of respect isn't an age issue but rather something else, like disrespecting someone due to their lack of knowledge, intelligence, etc.

S/he (and I) are saying it *won't* be implemented. And for all the reasons I mentioned before, in practice, it isn't implemented.

As for the respect bit, please, just stop now before your argument gets any more foolish than it already has. It is exceedingly rare for a senior resident to know less than an intern does about any aspect of clinical practice. Interns (and new interns in particular) are so ignorant regarding how medicine is practiced that they often can't even recognize how ignorant they really are. That goes just as much for those of us who are/were MD/PhD interns as it does for everyone else. Medicine is hierarchical for a reason: seniors are responsible for the work done by their interns, and it's their job to help interns get through the "boot camp" that early residency is, hopefully without killing anyone. This is the reason why an intern showing disrespect to a senior (ex. not carrying out their orders) is almost never acceptable behavior.

 

[Raryn]

As for the respect bit, please, just stop now before your argument gets any more foolish than it already has. It is exceedingly rare for a senior resident to know less than an intern does about any aspect of clinical practice. Interns (and new interns in particular) are so ignorant regarding how medicine is practiced that they often can't even recognize how ignorant they really are. That goes just as much for those of us who are/were MD/PhD interns as it does for everyone else. Medicine is hierarchical for a reason: seniors are responsible for the work done by their interns, and it's their job to help interns get through the "boot camp" that early residency is, hopefully without killing anyone. This is the reason why an intern showing disrespect to a senior (ex. not carrying out their orders) is almost never acceptable behavior.

To be fair, I wouldn't say that interns never know more about any aspect of clinical practice than seniors. I can think of plenty of cases the interns knew more than the seniors and their input is more than welcome. For example, someone who had recently done a subspecialty clerkship that the senior hasn't done in the past could easily know more about aspects of that practice than their supervisor. If my intern tells me "well, I was on rheumatology last week and when we had a similar patient we did BLAH, or dr. soandso wanted these labs done before treatment, or whatever", of COURSE I'm going to listen to them. I know ****-all about rheumatology. Or perhaps the intern recently graduated from the same institution they are now doing their residency in and thus might know a few more of the more interesting system issues (i.e. "for a blah consult, the system is actually screwy, we should actually just call number XYZ to get around the 2 hour wait time to hear back" .

I want to know when I'm wrong or when there's a better way of doing things, and if the intern, medical student, or fracking janitor has input, I'm more than happy to hear about it. That said, it's input. Same as a consultants input. No obligation to follow it, and the attending has no obligation to follow my decisions either. If the decision is made to do things a certain way by someone higher up on the totem pole, that's the way things will be done. I've put in orders before I disagreed with because my senior or attending told me to, but after I brought up my concerns and the reasoning was explained again, I did it. Even if my concerns were still real. That's what's expected in the end, because it's someone elses name on the bottom line. No one wants a group of robots, because in a year the intern will be a senior. They want people who can reason their way through it, provide input to the team, but when push comes to shove gets stuff done.

 

[QofQuimica]

To be fair, I wouldn't say that interns never know more about any aspect of clinical practice than seniors. I can think of plenty of cases the interns knew more than the seniors and their input is more than welcome. For example, someone who had recently done a subspecialty clerkship that the senior hasn't done in the past could easily know more about aspects of that practice than their supervisor. If my intern tells me "well, I was on rheumatology last week and when we had a similar patient we did BLAH, or dr. soandso wanted these labs done before treatment, or whatever", of COURSE I'm going to listen to them. I know ****-all about rheumatology. Or perhaps the intern recently graduated from the same institution they are now doing their residency in and thus might know a few more of the more interesting system issues (i.e. "for a blah consult, the system is actually screwy, we should actually just call number XYZ to get around the 2 hour wait time to hear back" .

I want to know when I'm wrong or when there's a better way of doing things, and if the intern, medical student, or fracking janitor has input, I'm more than happy to hear about it. That said, it's input. Same as a consultants input. No obligation to follow it, and the attending has no obligation to follow my decisions either. If the decision is made to do things a certain way by someone higher up on the totem pole, that's the way things will be done. I've put in orders before I disagreed with because my senior or attending told me to, but after I brought up my concerns and the reasoning was explained again, I did it. Even if my concerns were still real. That's what's expected in the end, because it's someone elses name on the bottom line. No one wants a group of robots, because in a year the intern will be a senior. They want people who can reason their way through it, provide input to the team, but when push comes to shove gets stuff done.

No arguments from me on anything you've said here. I did not in any way intend to suggest that interns should be automatons or should not raise concerns or ideas. Ditto for my nurses, techs, pharmacists, med students, etc. But in the end, as you said, the intern is still not the person making the final decision or taking ultimate responsibility. And there's a big difference between an intern raising a concern/making a suggestion, versus disrespecting their seniors because they think they're smarter than their seniors are. Having a PhD doesn't make you smarter than your seniors.

 

[Nasrudin]

I really have a hard time imagining an intern with a chip on their shoulder in hierarchical situatuons old or young. The phase of training is just so inherently scary that anyone who has time to worry about how they should be treated based on issues unrelated to medicine is simply someone who has their head up their own @ss.

And uh...that happens across the age cohorts.

I just worked with a senior resident who looked like a teenager. I could have mopped the floor with this skinny little kid. But he was a masterful resident. And I was like molded clay under his leadership. He taught me more survival skills than any of my previous residents. I f'n love this kid. I'd go anywhere and do anything for him with absolute trust that he knows what he's doing.

So...I don't subscribe to this trending notion that nontrads are hard to manage. ****...I've been working as a grunt my whole life. I'm more easily managed than someone who's never paid their own bills before I can tell you that.

I mean. Maybe there's something to it. But I just can't see a place for it in practice. Being an intern is just too perilous.

 

[Nasrudin]

That said. Surgery might be a different bird. I don't take to aggressive @ssholes well. And my surgery clerkship was full of them. I might choke somebody if I had to put up with some of those people on the reg.

As long as we're throwing around generalizations that might have some truth to them.

 

[MurumErumpendum]

The diversity of the answers in this thread, some from physicians, further demonstrates that age, young or old, should not be the measuring stick for candidates. Programs that judge an applicant based on the quantity of the “years left to practice” instead of that applicant’s qualities as a doctor are part of a flawed system which I hope most programs don’t ascribe to.

As far as the hierarchy goes, it’s something that’s present in the academia too, but we know that those who are passionate and knowledgeable about what they do, do not just take orders without ever raising any questions. And intelligent superiors who are not too arrogant are not afraid when someone questions some of their practices. It’s in fact rare to find students who have the thirst to pursue problems scientifically and ask questions. It’s far easier to be apathetic. No one is saying that an intern should disobey a chief, but as raryn mentioned, respectfully bringing up disagreements is not an act of treason. Furthermore, such disagreements are a necessary part of a scientific education because no matter how artfully some choose to practice their medicine, the fact is that medicine is a science. If no one ever dared to ask questions because it might fluster some feathers, perhaps of misinformed superiors, we’d still believe in a geocentric universe or that not washing hands before deliveries has nothing to do with the deaths of birthing mothers.

Those who seem to somehow disagree with EBM really did not bring any reasoning behind their reasoning. Q, I don’t know why you deem the argument in support of EBM foolish. Besides the obvious situations where the lack of scientific knowledge will of course result in a treatment that depends solely on anecdotal evidence, it is not clear to me what is so absurd about a doctor either doing research or keeping track of scientific findings for diseases which are thoroughly researched. Or how about for once having doctors who have at least some idea about the evidence behind the medications they prescribe day in and day out? I don’t know how many doctors are aware of this, but the research behind almost every medication produced in the USA today is horribly flawed to the point that many medications either don’t do anything or are very harmful to patients. Drug companies are not charities and their only goal is to pass drug trials at any cost and make money for themselves and their shareholders. This is understandable, and that’s why doctors were supposed to be the buffer. So I ask again, what is so foolish about knowing the science behind Vioxx before prescribing it to your patient? I think the latest statistic mentioned that in the US more people die annually from legal prescription medications than illicit drug use or homicide. We can blame the FDA, but doctors who fail to grasp the importance of evidence are even more culpable since they are the ones actually handing these drugs to their patients. "Do no harm" always applies and ignorance is not an excuse.

 

[QofQuimica]

Murum, I don't know how to explain it any more clearly to you: medicine is *not* a science as practiced. People pay lip service to medicine being a science, but physicians on the whole are not trained as scientists, do not think like scientists, and do not conduct research. Many don't read journals at all. You aren't required to read journal articles or follow the latest research once you finish training. The CME requirements for practicing physicians are surprisingly minimal.

There's nothing wrong with EBM; it's just that it falls onto deaf ears. It is not an issue of ignorance. It is an issue of willful disregard for the evidence. People keep doing things a certain way *in spite* of there being evidence to the contrary, and even when they *know* there is evidence to the contrary. This attitude of continuing standard practice regardless of evidence is so heavily entrenched in medical training and practice that simply whipping out a study to show why a different way is better, is unlikely to change most of your colleagues' practices. And if you change your practice and have a poor outcome, they'll be the first ones in line to pillory you for it. Most physicians do not want to take the risk of being early adopters for this reason.

As for Vioxx, that's a whole 'nother argument, but many of our so-called experts are in bed with the drug companies and receive exorbitant speaking/bureau fees, research dollars, etc. from them. Even your garden variety community docs can often get considerable perks from the drug companies. The abuses are not as bad as they used to be, but they still abound. I can't say it any better than Upton Sinclair: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

Ironically, check out this week's SDN article: http://www.studentdoctor.net/2014/09/the-fatal-failings-of-evidence-based-medicine/

 

[Lawgiver]

Friend murum, you have a lot of surprises in store for you, and you may not like them much.

I'm a PhD-to-MD. Have both an MS and a PhD in chemistry, a "hard science." Started med school at age 31. Got through the first two years of basic sciences, took the first step of the boards, and went on to clinical rotations. Was just floored by how utterly unscientific most of what we do in medicine is. Continued to be equally floored by this as a resident, and now as an attending as well--if anything, even more so because I'm now that much more aware of the economic basis of many of our practices.

Let me tell you something I wish I had known at your stage: medicine ain't science. It's loosely based on science, but all those people insisting on calling it an "art" is not an accident. If you want to do science, then keep on doing science. Because if you become a clinician, you won't be doing science. We make so many, maybe even most, treatment decisions based at least in part upon anecdotal experience, personal preference, financial considerations, and expert opinion. If you can't accept that, then this isn't the right career for you.

I already figured this is how most docs operate but Im very happy to see one admit it. Makes me like medicine even more actually.

 

[QofQuimica]

I already figured this is how most docs operate but Im very happy to see one admit it. Makes me like medicine even more actually.

I don't think anyone who comes to medicine from a science background could possibly fail to notice the disconnect between the two, at even the most fundamental level. For example, in spite of a couple *centuries* worth of evidence regarding the mode of transmission of infections, even now, physicians have the lowest rates of handwashing among caregivers in the hospital. Does anyone really believe that nurses, techs, and therapists have a better scientific understanding of the germ theory than physicians do??? (FWIW, this study was replicated at the hospital where I did residency, and they had the same findings, namely that senior physicians had the lowest rates of handwashing.)

 

[Neurosurg.]

N=1 but when I rotated through surgery there was a 38 year old from the states and the attendings made comments that translate to:

I don't get why he's here at this age, he probably failed at something else (wtf?!?)

He doesn't have many "good years" left in him

Very stupid and trivial comments, they were in Spanish and the guy didn't hear these (to their credit they didn't say it to his face). I enjoyed rotating with him and he will be a great physician, but unfortunately the stigma of being "old" is usually seen negatively.

Why telling the truth about your age..it's personal..when ppl ask me I reduce 5 years from my true age..

 

[non-trad++]

I read through this thread and the arguments got rather ludicrous on both sides. If I may be so bold as to interject here another point of view: I myself will start medical school later in life and in no way do I dream that age is not going to be a factor. In fact, I cannot even say that age must never be a factor - for some persons, even 30 might be too old. I am not the judge of that and nor is it particularly important. However, what I wanted to say is this - as a non-traditional future doctor, I have dedicated years of my life to bench research that has enabled me to understand my field of interest down to the molecular level (yes, without PhD). For years I have delayed my medical school application because I was too busy learning, discovering, and publishing. So now, now that I feel satisfied with my knowledge, now that I have dedicating years and countless hours of my life to science and am ready to move on to the world of medicine where my goal was always to finally be able to translate all of my knowledge and experience into important discoveries, do you believe that someone like me has the smallest care about what a 28 year old surgical resident might think of my age? Or do you think that if anyone dared to question my age in a disrespectful manner that I would not easily quash any such motions with an unambiguous, if not seemingly condescending answer?

You know, in all the responses to this thread I was hard pressed to find any substantive discussion about the most important aspect of a physician: quality. Most are quick to state that age discrimination is real, but what an obvious statement that is and at the same time, what a misguided statement when quality is left out of the discussion. I believe that what I described above about myself is not very unique. Many non-traditional students do have very important, non-quantifiable qualities that they would bring to the world of medicine and it is a tragic misjudgment by attendings and others who quantify an applicant rather than qualify him or her. I am not saying disregard age, but if you are judging someone based on “number of years left to practice,” you are missing the forest for the trees. We are talking about human lives here, and even more importantly, we’re talking about science. Isn’t it obvious that an experienced physician who can make a significant advancement in the field which could affect numerous patients is a more “worthy” professional even if he or she practices only 5 years compared to someone you can practice 50? Of course, not every non-traditional student is going to bring something major to the field, but the point made here is that you look at the person first and not the age. Ask what qualities and experiences the person has, before asking for the age. The logic here is incomprehensible, especially for intelligent professionals.

As an addendum, I am in a position at my institution (a medical school) where I have come in contact with many medical students, residents, and doctors over the years, some of whom have worked under my supervision. I will not go into a protracted discussion here, but my experience has taught me that the majority of doctors and future doctors must have never been accepted and should not be doctors. I, and some of my colleagues, are honestly abhorred that those individuals will one day be treating human beings or are treating them already. Medicine is a science and a doctor must be a scientist first. If you don’t understand statistics, if you don’t regularly read or can’t understand scientific publications, you should not be a doctor. So for ****’s sake, please leave all this irrelevant discussion about age and address the real issue if you’re really concerned about the so called “returns” in medicine. And please understand that the fact that you were able to finish medical school at 24 says nothing about your qualities as a doctor or your scientific mind. In fact, statistically speaking, a certain, not so small percentage of future/current doctors contributing to this very thread are likely in a camp where they should have never been accepted into this field, despite their starry eyed ambitions at the age of 23.57.


P.S.: I didn’t even mention the possibility of real adversity some people face that delays their applications. There are those who frown upon this too. But here too, it is completely ok. I believe that any non-trad who has a one track mind and knows what he or she wants to do in life, will not spend too much of his or her precious time reading opinions from unknown users and certainly not make a decision based on that. If you are possessed by a goal, then go and do it. If you will not, based on a thread, then it was good that you read it. Like it or not, the people who posted here are/will be our colleagues and therefore age discrimination is real for certain people. Ok, and?

I agree with almost all MurumUmUm is saying; however, you too may be missing a couple of points:
1) There is a [good] reason that our society has long decided/concluded/legislated that age discrimination in the work place (including med school/training) is ILLEGAL. So anyone trying to interpret/justify/tolerate/sympathize with the actions of anyone that violates this law is simply wrong and misguided; unless, the goal of this discussion is to change the said law. In any event, NO admission committee/residency program director should chose to disregard/violate the [current] law and act selectively based on his/her bias/opinion/etc.

2) We should not underestimate/forget the huge positive/bonus effect the non-traditional/older students have on the younger generations: inspiration, encouragement, motivation, etc. ... acting as role models, mentors, and so on - a multiplier effect.

So I vote to uphold the current law... while continuing the pursuit of medicine undeterred!

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I agree with almost all MurumUmUm is saying; however, you too may be missing a couple of points:
1) There is a [good] reason that our society has long decided/concluded/legislated that age discrimination in the work place (including med school/training) is ILLEGAL. So anyone trying to interpret/justify/tolerate/sympathize with the actions of anyone that violates this law is simply wrong and misguided; unless, the goal of this discussion is to change the said law. In any event, NO admission committee/residency program director should chose to disregard/violate the [current] law and act selectively based on his/her bias/opinion/etc.

2) We should not underestimate/forget the huge positive/bonus effect the non-traditional/older students have on the younger generations: inspiration, encouragement, motivation, etc. ... acting as role models, mentors, and so on - a multiplier effect.

So I vote to uphold the current law... while continuing the pursuit of medicine undeterred!

 

[jhamaican]

older students/residents are the worst.

No one cares about your "life experiences". I am trying to learn medicine.

Don't hang out with the class, too busy taking care of their family.

always trying to leave early, inevitably resulting in more work for others.

Oh my kid got sick again and I cannot come in. Once again more work for everyone else.

These older individuals are always the most selfish as well. Don't care about connecting or hanging out with their classmates or co-residents. Just have to go home to the wife and kids as soon as humanly possible!

Plz just go. Tax payer money is NOT being put to good use on older applicants. They are less productive in the long run. This is just how life works.

 

[rokshana]

older students/residents are the worst.

No one cares about your "life experiences". I am trying to learn medicine.

Don't hang out with the class, too busy taking care of their family.

always trying to leave early, inevitably resulting in more work for others.

Oh my kid got sick again and I cannot come in. Once again more work for everyone else.

These older individuals are always the most selfish as well. Don't care about connecting or hanging out with their classmates or co-residents. Just have to go home to the wife and kids as soon as humanly possible!

Plz just go. Tax payer money is NOT being put to good use on older applicants. They are less productive in the long run. This is just how life works.

Obviously from someone who has no life and somehow thinks that residency is going to be the way he makes friends...tax payer money isn't there for you to "hang out" and make friends
This is not college or even med school, its the real world and you have a job now...get used to the idea that people have lives that don't revolve around you...

 

[non-trad++]

older students/residents are the worst.

No one cares about your "life experiences". I am trying to learn medicine.

Don't hang out with the class, too busy taking care of their family.

always trying to leave early, inevitably resulting in more work for others.

Oh my kid got sick again and I cannot come in. Once again more work for everyone else.

These older individuals are always the most selfish as well. Don't care about connecting or hanging out with their classmates or co-residents. Just have to go home to the wife and kids as soon as humanly possible!

Plz just go. Tax payer money is NOT being put to good use on older applicants. They are less productive in the long run. This is just how life works.

Hmm, so you’ll tell your geriatrics/hospice patients “Plz just go.” since “taxpayer money is NOT being put to good use...”?!

I can go on for ever on what ‘I’, as an older student/resident have to offer to more than make-up for any likely shortcomings thereoff; take ‘my’ attribute of systems-thinking for example - which, from your post, seems absent: it could be that that ‘older resident’ of yours may be getting home early in order to [better] raise/educate future ‘taxpayers’ ... whom will fund your future pension; don’t you agree?

Besides, not all “older students/residents” are created equal.

 

[jhamaican]

Obviously from someone who has no life and somehow thinks that residency is going to be the way he makes friends...tax payer money isn't there for you to "hang out" and make friends
This is not college or even med school, its the real world and you have a job now...get used to the idea that people have lives that don't revolve around you...

yea dude totally agree.

Who would ever want to make friends with their co-residents? crazy thought

I am here just to make my money then leave ASAP

 

[jhamaican]

Hmm, so you’ll tell your geriatrics/hospice patients “Plz just go.” since “taxpayer money is NOT being put to good use...”?!

I can go on for ever on what ‘I’, as an older student/resident have to offer to more than make-up for any likely shortcomings thereoff; take ‘my’ attribute of systems-thinking for example - which, from your post, seems absent: it could be that that ‘older resident’ of yours may be getting home early in order to [better] raise/educate future ‘taxpayers’ ... whom will fund your future pension; don’t you agree?

Besides, not all “older students/residents” are created equal.

LOL if you think you are going to have a pension as a doctor and social security will be long gone. It is almost dead already.

Older students inevitably have less years in the work force no matter which way you try to twist it. No an efficient use of taxpayer money.

 

[Gastrapathy]

@non-trad++ Why do most/all of your posts/arguments involve so many /‘s?

 

[non-trad++]

.

 

[arcus]

This is not college or even med school, its the real world and you have a job now...get used to the idea that people have lives that don't revolve around you...

I referenced this article elsewhere but it has application here, at least in my mind

Asked About Retiring, They Have a Simple Answer: Why?

“I’m a better judge, in some respects, than when I was younger. I don’t remember names. But I listen more. And I’m more compassionate. I see things from more angles. If you are doing interesting work, you want to continue.”​

The Judge is a Federal Court Judge, age 96, and works a full schedule.

The article references two physicians also beyond retirement age who express similar sentiments as the Judge. Awe inspiring. I am always looking for good role model physicians at the university but most are either bitter, damaged, burnt out or in self-preservation mode out of necessity.

I would like to think physicians of age can teach those of us in training how to be more compassionate, better listeners, see things from multiple angles. However I fear the system is so broken that the few good physicians still in practice will be gone soon. I hope I am wrong. Truly

 

[non-trad++]

@non-trad++ Why do most/all of your posts/arguments involve so many /‘s?

Edit: I had a long explanation initially - deleted it.... ‘cause I had too many “/“/“/“...
Either written language hasn’t caught up with my way of thinking/expressiveness, or my engineering/technical writing background...

 

[Dral]

Some confusion by a person or two here.

I was an older student/resident. Not married, no kids. If anything, I tried really REALLY hard to be friends, hang out, etc. Many younger people weren't even interested in trying to hang out with me even though I was good for it.

 

[Walk]

Hello, I started Med school age 42, residency age 46 and I am 2 months shy of finishing
I am a carib grad , and did very well on the steps, applyed only to Family since my plan was to work in urgent care since I believe can have better lifestyle just working 3 days a week. Had many job offer and got a really good one. Age was never an issue, since keep myself in good shape training for triathlons .
I have no doubt you can do the same.

How did you do it? can you discuss? I am in same situation. what state? what hospital? how to get residency?