OMG What do I do now?

[Grace34]

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At my med school interns did not usually evaluate students. I did see evals from Med/Peds interns, but otherwise usually it was just faculty. Of course, the residents could bad mouth or recommend you to faculty as they saw fit.

I do have to chime in and say that although I enjoyed my OB/GYN rotation, actually considered doing OB at one point, and got on really great with several of the OB attendings, it was my lowest grade of third year. I did NOT make double-sure that mid-term evaluations were done - so the only eval that got posted for me was from some lukewarm milquetoast that had met me maybe once. Bah.

 

[Substance]

What's the deal with Obgyn sounding so hellish? At my school, the obgyns were pretty happy, reasonable people, and the residents were great.

Anyway...

To the OP:

1. Get a lawyer. The school's first priority is to protect the school, not you. They will not want their departments to look bad by reversing a very subjectively graded fail. Get someone who knows how to deal with this kind of thing to manage your arguments.

2. Never admit anything - lateness or what have you - unless they have documented specific instances. Otherwise its their word against yours, which legally doesn't fly.

 

[Legion560]

To the OP:

1. Get a lawyer. The school's first priority is to protect the school, not you. They will not want their departments to look bad by reversing a very subjectively graded fail. Get someone who knows how to deal with this kind of thing to manage your arguments.

2. Never admit anything - lateness or what have you - unless they have documented specific instances. Otherwise its their word against yours, which legally doesn't fly.[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree with the lawyer idea. Dont lawyer up unless you are dead sure that you are right. You can bet that they will have thier own lawyers and thier paper trail will be more extensive and complete than your own. As a student, you have little recourse in these matters. Residents have little recourse as well. You can bet that even if you are right, and even if you "win", no residency program in the country is going to touch you or give you an easy "in". I suppose getting a lawyer for an opinion would be helpful in knowing what kind of options exist, but think very hard and long before you pursue legal action as the deck will always be stacked against you.

If you are given the option of repeating the rotation, request that you do it somewhere else and do your best to shine i.e first one to arrive, last one to leave kind of mentality. Get awesome evals, go to your dean and request that he use these evals in lieu of your other ones when writing the Dean's letter. If you do well, you will essentially prove that the previous evals were a fluke and should be discounted.

Trust me, it is not worth years of your life fighting this. Finish up med school, finish residency and move on. You've got better things ahead of you than trying to fight an uphill battle.

Realize that your situation is common and unfair evals, intimidation and retribution are inherent in the medical education system. Unlike others who have made the argument that medical school and residency are like any other jobs, I submit that they are not. There are very few systems of education or employment that are like medicine. You dont have due process or rights in this arena. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you will become savvy in circumventing these problems.

 

[Pure Anergy]

What's the deal with Obgyn sounding so hellish? At my school, the obgyns were pretty happy, reasonable people, and the residents were great.

Because in a lot of places, it is. This guy's experience is more extreme than most, but it isn't uncommon. When I was on OB/gyn, most of my residents and attendings were human beings, and I even enjoyed working with some of them. But I had a run-in with one OB/gyn attending who gave me a scathing eval over a personality conflict. It was a complete personal attack, but what made me mad was that I didn't realize how bad the problem between us really was until I read the eval. My story ended a lot happier than this guy's because I also worked with the rotation director, who liked me and thought I did a great job. Plus the bad eval was such an outlier (not just in general, but also for my OB/gyn rotation) that it was left out of my final rotation eval and I ended up with Honors. Even the attending who made me out to be the least likable person on the planet was at least fair enough to acknowledge that I showed up on time, had a good knowledge base, and did my work. But nothing like this ever happened on any of my other rotations, and it really left a bad taste in my mouth about OB/gyn.

2legit, do you have someone you can talk to for advice about how to best approach the rotation director? I went to talk to my advisor first about the situation and we discussed how to handle it before I talked to the rotation director. It turned out to be unnecessary because the rotation director had already decided to ignore the bad eval, but at least I went into our meeting feeling calm and prepared to discuss it rationally. Also, I don't agree with the previous poster who said to get a lawyer. Try to handle things quietly so that no one has to lose face, including you. Good luck and I hope things work out. Even though showing up late for rotations is a huge no-no, it's not so horrible that you deserve to fail the whole rotation over it. Just my opinion.

 

[Gastrapathy]

A couple of thoughts:

aPD: I think that performance on other rotations is relevant. If someone has been a marginal performer and passed despite reservations versus being a top student across diverse rotations (say GS and Peds), I think it helps to provide context for the inevitable subjective part of the dispute. Now, test scores on other hand are utterly irrelevant.

OP: If you remediate your OB rotation next year, expect that everyone's eyes will be on you from the start. I'd recommend doing the rotation at a different site, if possible. But anticipate that they will still know the backstory. And, no lawyer. How hard to fight the original grade depends a little on your goals for specialty.

 

[2legittoquit]

2legit, do you have someone you can talk to for advice about how to best approach the rotation director? I went to talk to my advisor first about the situation and we discussed how to handle it before I talked to the rotation director. It turned out to be unnecessary because the rotation director had already decided to ignore the bad eval, but at least I went into our meeting feeling calm and prepared to discuss it rationally. Also, I don't agree with the previous poster who said to get a lawyer. Try to handle things quietly so that no one has to lose face, including you. Good luck and I hope things work out. Even though showing up late for rotations is a huge no-no, it's not so horrible that you deserve to fail the whole rotation over it. Just my opinion.

Yes, i've talked to many faculty, students, faculty from other schools, and so on about how to handle it. My plan of action is basically what you're describing. I'm collecting as much evidence as I can and using it to write a rebuttal to all the arguments in the eval for the clerkship director to read. I'm also going to calmly explain what my experience was to the clerkship director. I don't think the legal route is something I want to pursue.

Just to clarify for people, it wasn't as if i was showing up regularly late, even though my evaluators wanted it to be seen that way. I showed up exactly at the times when signouts were scheduled to happen. Sometimes they happened on time, sometimes they were late, sometimes they were early. When they were early, i missed the first one or two patients. Due to the lack of feedback, I didn't even know they cared so much that i was late for those until the end of the rotation.

If i do end up repeating, I will be adament that I be in a location separate from all the residents and attendings during this past rotation. I'll tell them that I want to be watched like a hawk to show that I'm not the student that they tried to make me out to be.

 

[lowbudget]

To the OP:

1. Get a lawyer. The school's first priority is to protect the school, not you. They will not want their departments to look bad by reversing a very subjectively graded fail. Get someone who knows how to deal with this kind of thing to manage your arguments.

2. Never admit anything - lateness or what have you - unless they have documented specific instances. Otherwise its their word against yours, which legally doesn't fly.

I don't understand what you would accomplish by "getting a lawyer". I mean, what do you want to do? They already said they would pass the OP on the rotation. Are you trying to get the school to expunge the bad evaluation text from the record? The very comments that came from multiple sources? Based on what? The fact that no mid-term evaluation occurred?

Come on. Really? I'd be interested to hear about people's experience in this matter and how things ended.

 

[lowbudget]

aPD: I think that performance on other rotations is relevant. If someone has been a marginal performer and passed despite reservations versus being a top student across diverse rotations (say GS and Peds), I think it helps to provide context for the inevitable subjective part of the dispute. Now, test scores on other hand are utterly irrelevant.

Disagree. I think the only time a student's Peds or GS marks should even be considered in the face of a poor/failing mark on OB/Gyn is when the school is considering throwing the student out of school. At best, it just means, to me, that going forward, we will be watching you. If I were OB/Gyn clerkship director, I would be pissed as all get out if some committee overruled my department's decision to give poor evaluation or fail a student based on how they did on other rotations.

And if that's the policy/precedent, there would be mass chaos as students would ask their Chairmen of the speciality of their choice (say, GS or Pedi) to swoop in and save/vouch for a student who should have failed another rotation (say, OB/Gyn). That would make poor policy & poor precedent because you allow other departments to meddle in how you evaluate your own student in your own department. Totally disagree that any school should allow this to happen.

 

[lowbudget]

Just to clarify for people, it wasn't as if i was showing up regularly late, even though my evaluators wanted it to be seen that way. I showed up exactly at the times when signouts were scheduled to happen. Sometimes they happened on time, sometimes they were late, sometimes they were early. When they were early, i missed the first one or two patients. Due to the lack of feedback, I didn't even know they cared so much that i was late for those until the end of the rotation.

If i do end up repeating, I will be adament that I be in a location separate from all the residents and attendings during this past rotation. I'll tell them that I want to be watched like a hawk to show that I'm not the student that they tried to make me out to be.

Good point. Sounds like the rotation needs some work from an organizational standpoint. I'm sure the true story is somewhere in the middle. I like what I hear in the last paragraph. Wish you the best.

 

[lowbudget]

But I had a run-in with one OB/gyn attending who gave me a scathing eval over a personality conflict. It was a complete personal attack, but what made me mad was that I didn't realize how bad the problem between us really was until I read the eval. My story ended a lot happier than this guy's because I also worked with the rotation director, who liked me and thought I did a great job. Plus the bad eval was such an outlier (not just in general, but also for my OB/gyn rotation) that it was left out of my final rotation eval and I ended up with Honors. Even the attending who made me out to be the least likable person on the planet was at least fair enough to acknowledge that I showed up on time, had a good knowledge base, and did my work. But nothing like this ever happened on any of my other rotations, and it really left a bad taste in my mouth about OB/gyn.

This issue is interesting to me: Should a student/resident get poor marks because of personality conflict given that they were on time, had good knowledge base, and did their work?

I've heard both sides of the argument.

On one hand, some say that educators have the duty to correct a deficiencies (even if it's personality related) before that doctor goes out independently into the real world... that it is the educational system's responsibility to educate on proper behavior fitting of a physician.

On the other hand, others say that educators can only realistically have an impact on modifiable behaviors (such as being on time, having good knowledge base, and doing their work) and that things such as "personality" (and thus, personality disorders) are hardwired and immutable... and that if educators fail a student/resident based on their personality, they should offer a mechanism to improve upon their personality. The problem is, how does an educator teach someone to improve their personality?

How is this issue dealt with at everyone's institution?

 

[Gastrapathy]

Disagree. I think the only time a student's Peds or GS marks should even be considered in the face of a poor/failing mark on OB/Gyn is when the school is considering throwing the student out of school. At best, it just means, to me, that going forward, we will be watching you. If I were OB/Gyn clerkship director, I would be pissed as all get out if some committee overruled my department's decision to give poor evaluation or fail a student based on how they did on other rotations.

And if that's the policy/precedent, there would be mass chaos as students would ask their Chairmen of the speciality of their choice (say, GS or Pedi) to swoop in and save/vouch for a student who should have failed another rotation (say, OB/Gyn). That would make poor policy & poor precedent because you allow other departments to meddle in how you evaluate your own student in your own department. Totally disagree that any school should allow this to happen.

I'd be angry to be overruled as well, but the reason there is an appeals process is to make it possible to overrule a patently unfair situation. If I were a dean (HA!), I would want to make sure that I used that power in only the most egregious of circumstances. If a student was a marginal performer on other rotations, that would make it less likely that this assessment, while perhaps harsh, was truely unfair. I just think it provides context and an additional data point when they are trying to sort out what actually happened. In nearly every case, the grade should stand and the student should repeat the rotation.

 

[Substance]

I'm still saying get a lawyer.


One of the reasons is this: if you do have to redo the rotation(which I believe you should not have to) then a lawyer will know how to draw up a contract with the necessary provisions. That is, if the agreement states that should you do well in your redo, your old grade disappears, then it becomes legally binding.

Keep in mind that without a good contract protecting you, your grade is at the whim of the administration. Even if you do extremely well next time, if they want to keep your old grade on your record, they can, unless a legal contract that they agreed to states otherwise.

Also, if you have to go that route, do the rotation WELL AWAY of where you were previously. Also, the new site should have NO knowledge of your remediation, so that you can be evaluated fairly.

Another reason I think you should get a lawyer is the fact that, from your perspective, it sounds like you've done nothing wrong. It merely sounds as if you didn't get along with your evaluators. That's no reason to fail a rotation. If there is a start-time to rounds IN WRITING and you always showed up at this time, then there is nothing that can be said against you. NEVER imply that you were late! Just state that you always showed up on time for rounds as per the posted/printed/emailed schedule - say nothing more.

That's my opinion. I believe in justice, and the OPs situation does not sound just in any way. What do you have to lose?

Let's play a little game theory:

1. You do nothing: you get a fail grade, have to repeat the rotation likely at the same site. You could fail again and therefore have to repeat the year, or you don't fail but still have that stain on your transcript and therefore will be unable to apply for any residencies the least bit desired. In other words, you lose.

2. You arrange to meet with the dean, give him the story, and try to challenge the grade. The administration is more powerful than you and will stonewall you completely. You will still have the fail, you will still need to repeat, you will likely fail that because they are vindictive, and you will have to repeat the year. Also, the vindictive administration will make your life difficult for the future, and your MSPR will likely have a few negative words in it as retribution for your challenge. In other words, you lose even more.

3. Get a lawyer, meet with him, get the facts straight and the evidence lined up, meet with the dean, and try to challenge the grade; failing that you draw up a contract stating what will happen on your remediation. Going the legal route protects you and makes the administration likely to settle because going to trial is expensive and time consuming, even for a large administration. They'd rather it not come to that. Plus, if there is no legal, provable reason for your failure, they will have no choice but to reverse it. Your chances of winning are best here.

 

[lowbudget]

I'm still saying get a lawyer.


One of the reasons is this: if you do have to redo the rotation(which I believe you should not have to) then a lawyer will know how to draw up a contract with the necessary provisions. That is, if the agreement states that should you do well in your redo, your old grade disappears, then it becomes legally binding.

Keep in mind that without a good contract protecting you, your grade is at the whim of the administration. Even if you do extremely well next time, if they want to keep your old grade on your record, they can, unless a legal contract that they agreed to states otherwise.

Also, if you have to go that route, do the rotation WELL AWAY of where you were previously. Also, the new site should have NO knowledge of your remediation, so that you can be evaluated fairly.

Another reason I think you should get a lawyer is the fact that, from your perspective, it sounds like you've done nothing wrong. It merely sounds as if you didn't get along with your evaluators. That's no reason to fail a rotation. If there is a start-time to rounds IN WRITING and you always showed up at this time, then there is nothing that can be said against you. NEVER imply that you were late! Just state that you always showed up on time for rounds as per the posted/printed/emailed schedule - say nothing more.

That's my opinion. I believe in justice, and the OPs situation does not sound just in any way. What do you have to lose?

Let's play a little game theory:

1. You do nothing: you get a fail grade, have to repeat the rotation likely at the same site. You could fail again and therefore have to repeat the year, or you don't fail but still have that stain on your transcript and therefore will be unable to apply for any residencies the least bit desired. In other words, you lose.

2. You arrange to meet with the dean, give him the story, and try to challenge the grade. The administration is more powerful than you and will stonewall you completely. You will still have the fail, you will still need to repeat, you will likely fail that because they are vindictive, and you will have to repeat the year. Also, the vindictive administration will make your life difficult for the future, and your MSPR will likely have a few negative words in it as retribution for your challenge. In other words, you lose even more.

3. Get a lawyer, meet with him, get the facts straight and the evidence lined up, meet with the dean, and try to challenge the grade; failing that you draw up a contract stating what will happen on your remediation. Going the legal route protects you and makes the administration likely to settle because going to trial is expensive and time consuming, even for a large administration. They'd rather it not come to that. Plus, if there is no legal, provable reason for your failure, they will have no choice but to reverse it. Your chances of winning are best here.

I wished I had known all this when I got a C in Handwriting back in the 4th grade. My mom made me do writing lessons during summer vacation! Was not allowed to go to the pool until I wrote out a couple of paragraphs from The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe. In. Perfect. Handwriting. Argh!

I thought my handwriting was just fine. But it was unacceptable to others. So, I accepted that I screwed up. I suffered the consequences. I try not to make the same mistakes in the future. My handwriting is now immaculate (at least, compared to other physicians).

And, today, I am thankful that the public educational system saved me from having to explain my handwriting in malpractice court on an overhead projector to a jury. And I am thankful that my parents supported my teachers.

Look, I believe in justice and fair play too; and the facts of the case should be vetted.

But at the end of the day, you have to let teachers do their jobs.

 

[Substance]

I wished I had known all this when I got a C in Handwriting back in the 4th grade. My mom made me do writing lessons during summer vacation! Was not allowed to go to the pool until I wrote out a couple of paragraphs from The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe. In. Perfect. Handwriting. Argh!

I thought my handwriting was just fine. But it was unacceptable to others. So, I accepted that I screwed up. I suffered the consequences. I try not to make the same mistakes in the future. My handwriting is now immaculate (at least, compared to other physicians).

And, today, I am thankful that the public educational system saved me from having to explain my handwriting in malpractice court on an overhead projector to a jury. And I am thankful that my parents supported my teachers.

Look, I believe in justice and fair play too; and the facts of the case should be vetted.

But at the end of the day, you have to let teachers do their jobs.

There's a big difference between having a bad(but not failing) grade in grade-school handwriting and a failing grade in medical school. One is immaterial, the other determines your future career options.

A failing grade in medical school is not to be taken lightly. If there is no objective evidence indicating that such a grade is warranted, then a failing grade cannot be justly given. Having a personality conflict with or a grudge against a student is not an acceptable reason for giving a failing grade, and evaluators should be mature enough to realize so. Yet many are not.

Accepting a failing grade when you believe that it is not deserved is accepting that they are right and you deserved to fail, even if their reasons are unclear or unfair, which the OP indicates is the case for him. Nobody will look past the fail when granting interviews. Nobody will accept your version of what happened as more than whining. Your fail has long-term concequences.

It is amazing that a field such as medicine, which prides itself on evidence and objective clinical assessment and plan, still has miles to go in education.

 

[lowbudget]

There's a big difference between having a bad(but not failing) grade in grade-school handwriting and a failing grade in medical school. One is immaterial, the other determines your future career options.

A failing grade in medical school is not to be taken lightly. If there is no objective evidence indicating that such a grade is warranted, then a failing grade cannot be justly given. Having a personality conflict with or a grudge against a student is not an acceptable reason for giving a failing grade, and evaluators should be mature enough to realize so. Yet many are not.

Accepting a failing grade when you believe that it is not deserved is accepting that they are right and you deserved to fail, even if their reasons are unclear or unfair, which the OP indicates is the case for him. Nobody will look past the fail when granting interviews. Nobody will accept your version of what happened as more than whining. Your fail has long-term concequences.

It is amazing that a field such as medicine, which prides itself on evidence and objective clinical assessment and plan, still has miles to go in education.

If what you said above is true, can you define for me what is considered a failure on an OB/Gyn rotation? Put another way, on what conditions would you fail a student on an OB/Gyn clerkship? What is considered an acceptable reason to fail a student? What are those objective pieces of evidence that you speak of? I'm interested to hear what you consider is legitimate, clear, and fair.

My example is very germane, because to a grade schooler, the consequences may as well have been a death sentence. It's relative.

I think as you attempt to define what constitutes failure on an OB/Gyn clerkship, you will start to realize that there IS NO objective standard. Maybe a score on a multiple choice exam, being on time, and completing your work on time are probably the only 3 "objective" things out there, but we all know that none of these 3 things captures what it takes to be a good doctor.

The rest must be filled in by all things subjective. Or, put another way, whether you pass or fail a clerkship in medical school comes down to a matter of opinion! (Analogous to someone saying you have good or bad handwriting!) I know, judging by your last sentence, that you recognize this. Call it unfair. Call it unjust. Your view of the system depends on what side you're on when the hammer strikes.

I think you are demanding too much from the medical educational system to objectify all things educational/didactic.

You can bring in all the lawyers you want to take the facts and help you tell a better story, to help you cut a deal with the school. And I wish you the best of luck with that endeavor, in hopes that the outcome will be different.

But what I hope after all that hoopla is that someone, somewhere takes a step back and asks themselves, "What did I learn from all this?" I have a feeling that the students/residents who don't learn the lesson that they should have learned when the stakes are low (like a C on a Handwriting)... may be the same doctors who repeat the same mistakes when stakes become higher.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Substance,

What do you think the reaction from the administration will be if he shows up with an attorney?

Since you obviously have no clue, I will try to spell it out for you. They will feel threatened and will move rapidly to protect themselves and the institution. This will occur by removing any informal avenue for correcting the problem and ensuring careful documentation of the OP's deficiences. The core competencies are quite subjective and he will get fried. Litigating the decision will take forever (and is a losing proposition) and will ensure that no residency program will want him within 1000 miles.

The ONLY way to handle this situation is to try to figure out why they were so pissed so it won't happen again. Most cases like this reflect a lack of insight. "Everything was fine and whammo, I got an 'F'" usually means that the person missed some signals along the way.

That said, the right strategy depends on what the OP wants to do and the relative competitiveness of the residency. If you can afford it, the best approach is to accept the grade, agree to remediate and pass next time.

 

[Substance]

If what you said above is true, can you define for me what is considered a failure on an OB/Gyn rotation? Put another way, on what conditions would you fail a student on an OB/Gyn clerkship? What is considered an acceptable reason to fail a student? What are those objective pieces of evidence that you speak of? I'm interested to hear what you consider is legitimate, clear, and fair.

My example is very germane, because to a grade schooler, the consequences may as well have been a death sentence. It's relative.

I think as you attempt to define what constitutes failure on an OB/Gyn clerkship, you will start to realize that there IS NO objective standard. Maybe a score on a multiple choice exam, being on time, and completing your work on time are probably the only 3 "objective" things out there, but we all know that none of these 3 things captures what it takes to be a good doctor.

The rest must be filled in by all things subjective. Or, put another way, whether you pass or fail a clerkship in medical school comes down to a matter of opinion! (Analogous to someone saying you have good or bad handwriting!) I know, judging by your last sentence, that you recognize this. Call it unfair. Call it unjust. Your view of the system depends on what side you're on when the hammer strikes.

I think you are demanding too much from the medical educational system to objectify all things educational/didactic.

You can bring in all the lawyers you want to take the facts and help you tell a better story, to help you cut a deal with the school. And I wish you the best of luck with that endeavor, in hopes that the outcome will be different.

But what I hope after all that hoopla is that someone, somewhere takes a step back and asks themselves, "What did I learn from all this?" I have a feeling that the students/residents who don't learn the lesson that they should have learned when the stakes are low (like a C on a Handwriting)... may be the same doctors who repeat the same mistakes when stakes become higher.

A counterpoint to this is to know when its not about learning something obtuse from a questionable failure, but to know when to say enough is enough and retaliate against any unjust wrongdoings. This threshold is sometimes clear, but usually isn't, and almost always comes with a lengthy, hard battle.

This is precisely why we have a justice system. It prevents the people in charge from having a totalitarian control over those under them, be it physically or financially or what have you. Rather than say "looks like someone thinks I suck, better think about why they said that and take their observation as quoted truth.", sometimes one has to say "What right does this person have to pass such an unfounded judgment about me?"

Sometimes another's opinion about you is wrong. Nobody can make value judgments about someone's worth without a great deal of inaccuracy. Such inaccuracy should not stand in grading, and would not stand in a court of law. If all one could do was ruminate over a supposed superior's opinion, we'd still have segregation.

 

[Substance]

Substance,

What do you think the reaction from the administration will be if he shows up with an attorney?

Since you obviously have no clue, I will try to spell it out for you. They will feel threatened and will move rapidly to protect themselves and the institution. This will occur by removing any informal avenue for correcting the problem and ensuring careful documentation of the OP's deficiences. The core competencies are quite subjective and he will get fried. Litigating the decision will take forever (and is a losing proposition) and will ensure that no residency program will want him within 1000 miles.

The ONLY way to handle this situation is to try to figure out why they were so pissed so it won't happen again. Most cases like this reflect a lack of insight. "Everything was fine and whammo, I got an 'F'" usually means that the person missed some signals along the way.

That said, the right strategy depends on what the OP wants to do and the relative competitiveness of the residency. If you can afford it, the best approach is to accept the grade, agree to remediate and pass next time.

I agree that going full tilt with a lawyer at the beginning is not prudent, inasmuch regarding reversal of the desicion. What isn't overdone is using said lawyer for negotiating any contracts that arise from such a meeting.

And yes, finding out what was actually the reason for the failure in a concrete fashion is paramount before advancing. Maybe the OP had legitimate patient complaints, maybe he was clueless about the field(with repeated examples), maybe he's a liar (again with examples)...something that the OP isn't thinking of and will know for sure when he investigates further. But if it's nothing beyond buzz-word tripe that's unfounded in reality, I'd see no reason not to pursue reversal of the grade.

Perhaps we think differently, but if I were to fall victim to a poor yet official opinion by someone who just didn't like me, even though I had fulfilled what was required by me and my contract, I would not sit down and accept it. Such cases have been tried, and won, by students in the past, for everything from discrimination to grade reversal to dismissal.

Sure, you say that no residency program would want to touch you if you were getting legal involvement, since this would seem threatening, but then again, few residencies will touch you with a failing grade in clerkship.


By the way, I do respect your opinion. Just to let you know, I do "have a clue". Being condescending to someone who merely disagrees with you is poor form.

 

[2legittoquit]

Just thought I'd post a follow-up to my situation, in case some of you were wondering how it all turned out.

I met with the clerkship director, who started the meeting by explaining that everything possible would be done to not fail me. The director had spoken with the dean of student affairs, and learned that I had an essentially flawless experience throughout school. That made this whole scenario initally seem odd, so the director was very supportive of my side and wanted to hear what my experience was. I explained all my issues, but the key move was to give my written rebuttal of the evaluation that included documented interactions with patients, residents and attendings, as well as my email asking the site director for feedback midway through the rotation.

After reading through all that, the director made it very clear that the documentation was perhaps the best thing I could have done for myself. I was also asked for names of other attendings and residents who i worked with but didn't initially evaluate me so that different comments could be made in place of the old ones.

About a week later, I have an email saying that between my comments and the hospital's attendings and residents, my new grade will only, "unfortunately", be a pass. I'll take it, but i'm still put off by the whole experience of course.

The other issue is that I still don't know what my new evaluation comments will be. The school only gives out evals on paper, however I'm on an away rotation, so i won't see them until i get back in a few weeks. Nevertheless, my life is still MUCH better now than a month ago.

Thanks everyone for the advice and support. Even if the comments were against me, it gave me insight into what others were probably thinking of me so that i could be prepared. The biggest lesson for me is clear here: have a way to document everything that goes on a work and be prepared to CYA for your interactions with employees/ fellow physicians/patients. There will probably be a point in life where you're going to need it and you can't make up for not thinking about it in advance.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Yay, glad things worked out for you. I think it's interesting that the clerkship director thought it was especially compelling that you've done well during the rest of your schooling when lots of people here thought that didn't matter.

 

[gutonc]

Yay, glad things worked out for you. I think it's interesting that the clerkship director thought it was especially compelling that you've done well during the rest of your schooling when lots of people here thought that didn't matter.

Most people on here, in spite of having one or more doctoral degrees are idiots.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Just thought I'd post a follow-up to my situation, in case some of you were wondering how it all turned out.

I met with the clerkship director, who started the meeting by explaining that everything possible would be done to not fail me. The director had spoken with the dean of student affairs, and learned that I had an essentially flawless experience throughout school. That made this whole scenario initally seem odd, so the director was very supportive of my side and wanted to hear what my experience was. I explained all my issues, but the key move was to give my written rebuttal of the evaluation that included documented interactions with patients, residents and attendings, as well as my email asking the site director for feedback midway through the rotation.

After reading through all that, the director made it very clear that the documentation was perhaps the best thing I could have done for myself. I was also asked for names of other attendings and residents who i worked with but didn't initially evaluate me so that different comments could be made in place of the old ones.

About a week later, I have an email saying that between my comments and the hospital's attendings and residents, my new grade will only, "unfortunately", be a pass. I'll take it, but i'm still put off by the whole experience of course.

The other issue is that I still don't know what my new evaluation comments will be. The school only gives out evals on paper, however I'm on an away rotation, so i won't see them until i get back in a few weeks. Nevertheless, my life is still MUCH better now than a month ago.

Thanks everyone for the advice and support. Even if the comments were against me, it gave me insight into what others were probably thinking of me so that i could be prepared. The biggest lesson for me is clear here: have a way to document everything that goes on a work and be prepared to CYA for your interactions with employees/ fellow physicians/patients. There will probably be a point in life where you're going to need it and you can't make up for not thinking about it in advance.

I'm very happy things turned out this way. It looked quite dire for a while.

 

[filter07]

Congratulations on the good outcome!