Omit a School w/bad grades from 9 yrs ago

[GreenGiant]

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I've attended 3 schools: 1 in Cali. about 12 yrs ago, a 2nd school in my current state 9-10 yrs ago, and a 3rd school in my current state beginning 3 yrs ago. I never told my 3rd school about the 2nd school, and they never found out. I'm wondering how safe it is to omit a school from my AMCAS application. I have a friend who just got accepted to Nursing School and did not tell the school about one school previously attended. He has a friend who got accepted to Med School who also did not tell about a school attended in another state. I know it sounds unethical, but I'm worried that I may not make it in to school at all due to the bad grades from 10 yrs ago.

I've had a 3.81 over the past 3 years and pulled a 32 on the MCAT. I did my first year at a Cali. school with a 3.06 GPA about 12 years ago. This drops my overall GPA to 3.58. Then, 9-10 yrs ago I moved to another state and had two HORRIBLE semesters in a row due to "family" problems. I got several UWs (administrative withdraw, which I believe AMCAS counts as Fs), some Fs and Cs and Ds. This drops my overall GPA to 3.21 (or 3.46 if I'm wrong about the UWs).

So, there is the dilemma. I hate to start off my medical career with a lie, but I can't imagine getting accepted with a 3.21 GPA. Am I wrong about that? I would hope so, since I gave up a lot to go back to school. But I truly want to be a doctor. I've never cheated on a test, taxes, lover, etc., and am greatly conflicted. I'll end up as a doctor who lied or as a bum who told the truth (or, yes, I know, a bum who lied and got caught).

Will the ADCOM see past a 3.21 GPA to see that I've had a 3.81 over the past 3 yrs and have been involved in research, volunteering, patient contact, shadowing, tutoring, and TAing? Or will they never even read my PS or look deeper into my grades to see that I've been a stellar student for 3 years?

Does anyone know of real people who did this and got caught? Or got away with it? My 3rd school never found out about the 2nd school, so would AMCAS?

If I omit the 2nd school, and then AMCAS finds out about it, does that ruin my chances? But would my chances be ruined anyway with a 3.21 GPA? Which is the greater gamble?

Please help me with some practical responses to this ethical dilemma.

 

[doktadoom]

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[NonTradMed]

Having gone through the process just recently, I cannot possibly imagine having the omission of my past poor grades hanging over my head, knowing that if I was caught, I'd have my offer recinded. I guess it's up to you. Since the poor grades were done so long ago, and your recent grades are very good, and your MCAT is solid....I don't think it's worth it to cover up the past grades. Yes, some schools may reject you with your long ago poor performance, but I think you have a good shot at a school if you own up anyway. If you don't, you may get into more schools but there's always that chance schools may find out.

 

[njbmd]

Hi there

The AMCAS states that you list EVERY course taken above secondary school not just the recent ones with good grades. If you fail to list courses and are discovered, your degree, admission etc can be negated at any point. There are plenty of medical students and practicing physicians out there with bad grades. List everything and let the chips fall where they may.

You would be surprised what turns up during background checks and academic checks. We have had to dismiss a few (even as fourth years) for lying on their AMCAS.

njbmd 🙂

 

[Gut Shot]

Please help me with some practical responses to this ethical dilemma.

There is really no dilemma. If you omit the bad grades you are lying, and if you get caught you will be permanently blacklisted from the profession.

 

[exmike]

i don't see the dilemma.

regardless, if there was a 0.01% chance that you would lose everything you worked so hard for to possibly get in a better med school, is that worth it?

and yes, adcoms see trends. its actually an important factor. i'm the perfect example of that

 

[BozoSparky]

they won't care about your grades from 9 years ago. in several interviews i had, we both actually laughed my performance from 10 years back. make it an interesting story...let it help show who you are.

if you leave it out...you'll feel terrible...and if you get in, you might even feel worse.

 

[vtucci]

I had a few bad grades twelve years prior to my application cycle (and it did lower my science GPA from a 3.93 to a 3.58). If you do not list the school and AMCAS or your medical school finds out, not only can your offer be revoked but if you are a 4th year, you can be expelled for an academic honesty violation. Such occurences are not just urban legends-- they happen all the time.

Why risk it? Just have an explanation prepared in case someone asks. ADCOMs can do the math. You are not the same student you were 9 years ago. If that was not true, then most non-trads would not get in.

 

[hermit]

You people give schools way too much credit. Do tell - how would they find out? Is there some master secret data base to which every university and community college in the country uploads the grades of every student they have? (Hint - no)

As long as there is no mention of the black sheep school anywhere else (like you transferred a few of the hours you got there to another school you have mentioned) it may as well not exist. OP - also check to see if there is any financial aid paper trail that links you there. Look over every word of the docs you are submitting - if there is no mention of said school, rest assured that medical schools don't employ teams of private dectives to find out if you ever failed Biology I at Crappy's Community College. Another question - did you ever mention the school and this academic turnaround to anyone who wrote you a letter of recemmendation? Is there an off chance they may have mentioned it? Just sit down and think about possible leaks. Again, the only way you would get caught is a mistake on your part.

Poll - how many of you out there are waiters/waitresses and report every dollar of those cash tips on your income taxes because uncle sam says you have to?

Use some common sense.

 

[Law2Doc]

You people give schools way too much credit. Do tell - how would they find out? Is there some master secret data base to which every university and community college in the country uploads the grades of every student they have? (Hint - no)

As long as there is no mention of the black sheep school anywhere else (like you transferred a few of the hours you got there to another school you have mentioned) it may as well not exist. OP - also check to see if there is any financial aid paper trail that links you there. Look over every word of the docs you are submitting - if there is no mention of said school, rest assured that medical schools don't employ teams of private dectives to find out if you ever failed Biology I at Crappy's Community College. Another question - did you ever mention the school and this academic turnaround to anyone who wrote you a letter of recemmendation? Is there an off chance they may have mentioned it? Just sit down and think about possible leaks. Again, the only way you would get caught is a mistake on your part.

Poll - how many of you out there are waiters/waitresses and report every dollar of those cash tips on your income taxes because uncle sam says you have to?

Use some common sense.

I don't think "common sense" cuts the way you think it does. If you balance out the relatively modest benefit against the HUGE downside, the sensible thing to do is the honest thing. Not reporting cash tips is called income tax evasion -- if caught, you could, in the worst case scenario, do hard time. Similarly, lying, by intentional omission, on your application can cost you your entire medical career.
Also bear in mind that even if there is a relatively low chance of getting caught NOW, you will need to not get caught during the course of your entire school and licensing process (and maybe even your entire career). So you will be betting against the likelihood of increased computerization over the next decade or two or more-- not really a smart bet.
Folks in fact do get outed for lying on AMCAS -- the fact that it happens means you are underestimating the background check potential.

 

[2Sexy4MedSchool]

I've had a 3.81 over the past 3 years and pulled a 32 on the MCAT.

So, there is the dilemma. I hate to start off my medical career with a lie, but I can't imagine getting accepted with a 3.21 GPA. Am I wrong about that?

Please help me with some practical responses to this ethical dilemma.

(1) The quality of your recent work far outweighs one bad year a long time ago.

(2) You CAN be accepted with a 3.21 GPA, even assuming the worst case scenario.

(3) Tell them about all the schools and don't dwell on the bad year. It's like when you have a zit on your forehead -- you think it's so large it is like a third eye; most people don't even notice it unless you say something.

(4) Don't be a putz. Do the right thing. Tell the truth, eat your vegetables and brush your teeth and you'll be fine.

 

[Depakote]

If you had a 4.0 at this school 12 years ago, would you omit it?

Tell them.

 

[MDMAMA]

The assumption that they'll never find out is a bad one. We depend on individuals in the medical profession to be honest at all times even when the news is bad. Your story shows your determination to overcome the odds and succeed. Submit the bad grades and speak to them in your PS and in your interviews.

 

[DaveinDallas]

Clear cut case of personal integrity and honor. Are you going to do the harder right or the easier wrong? I had about 3 or 4 F's on my record - I just quit going to class - at the graduate level no less- because the instructor ticked me off. Never dropped them. Had a 3.2 science, 3.0 overall, 25P MCAT and I am finishing up my first year.

I like the West Point honor code - We don't lie, cheat, or steal or tolerate those who do. Medicine is all about trust and integrity. If you make a bad
call and seriously injure a patient, what are you going to do?

 

[the brown note]

Then, 9-10 yrs ago I moved to another state and had two HORRIBLE semesters in a row due to "family" problems. I got several UWs (administrative withdraw, which I believe AMCAS counts as Fs), some Fs and Cs and Ds. This drops my overall GPA to 3.21 (or 3.46 if I'm wrong about the UWs).

Will the ADCOM see past a 3.21 GPA to see that I've had a 3.81 over the past 3 yrs and have been involved in research, volunteering, patient contact, shadowing, tutoring, and TAing? Or will they never even read my PS or look deeper into my grades to see that I've been a stellar student for 3 years?

If I omit the 2nd school, and then AMCAS finds out about it, does that ruin my chances? But would my chances be ruined anyway with a 3.21 GPA? Which is the greater gamble?

According to p. 84 of the official AMCAS 2007 instructions (http://www.aamc.org/students/amcas/2007amcasinstrucfinal.pdf):

Withdrawal
Any course from which you officially withdrew, regardless of whether you were passing or failing at the time. Such courses usually appear on the transcript as a "W" or equivalent symbol.
• A course entry must be made even if the withdrawn course does not appear on the transcript.
• A course entry should NOT be made if the course was dropped within the normal drop/add period.
• No credit hours or AMCAS grade will be assigned.

Therefore, it appears that the "UWs" will NOT count in your AMCAS GPA, and you'd have a 3.46. This isn't bad--I know people who have gotten into "Top 20" schools (whatever that's worth) with those numbers, and/or with a really sketchy freshman year (they turned things around significantly after that year). Since the bad grades you received were a long time ago, many adcoms CAN look past that rough time in your life, and can see that it was an isolated time period. You've had a few years of great grades since then, so that will assure them that you can do the work for a sustained period of time. Not all adcoms will feel that way, but if you apply broadly and choose schools that are a good fit, you should be fine.

If you get into med school, you risk being discovered later and having your acceptance rescinded (or worse yet, being kicked out years later after having incurred significant debt). Will they find out? Maybe not, but do you want to take that chance?

 

[hermit]

The choice of course lies with the OP. I just don't want him to be persuaded by boogeymen and anonymous message board oracles.

Can anyone provide any stats on how many people get "discovered later in their careers?" Or even in medical school for that matter? Absent real statistics, we are left to make our own based on the number of people who have heard about it happening and post in this thread. Even your "D" statistics students will likely be able to identify a flaw in this method.

What numbers do we have? Stats of admitted applicants and their GPAs. Unless the OP has his sights set on Howard or the Caribbean, the simple fact is that the odds are stacked against him. Are their exceptions, sure. But this isn't roulette and he isn't betting $20 on a 2.5% chance that his number will come up. If Johns Hopkins admits 120 people and their median GPA is 3.8, odds are that there aren't too many 3.2s running around in the student lounge. Are there one or two? Probably. But it’s a heck of a long shot to bet your future on being the one out of 5800 applicants.

 

[NonTradMed]

But the point is that the benefit of getting in by omission does not outweigh the fact that you could get your offer recinded or kicked out of med school at any time they find out about your omission. The grades were NINE years ago and the OP has shown improvement and has a solid MCAT score to prove it's not a fluke.

I guess to me, it's not worth a shot at a top 20 school to lie on AMCAS. The OP's grades are not so clearcut that the OP would be automatically disbarred from med school admissions if he showed his entire academic record. He/she has a good chance at getting in anyway, why risk it with a lie?

 

[DoctorEmDee]

Just wanted to put in my two cents. I just recently got accepted to medical school, and in the acceptance letter they give reasons why they could take back the acceptance and my spot at any time. One of them being "This acceptance could be withdrawn if additional information is presented that was not available to the admissions committee at the time of your acceptance."
I know that other schools have similar rules and regulations. They take misinformation or withholding information pretty seriously.

 

[LO281OK]

I agree with the don't omit crowd. I had a 2.76 before post-bac and got offered plenty of interviews from good schools with a 4.0 post-bac and decent MCAT. You can always explain bad grades, covering them up, however, shows a deep-seeded character flaw. My view was that being able to admit you are not perfect will be an asset in becoming a doctor.

There is really no dilemma. If you omit the bad grades you are lying, and if you get caught you will be permanently blacklisted from the profession.

 

[remo]

The schools probably wouldn't find out but the first time you get sued for malpractice (and it will happen) - an agressive lawyer would probably find out and then you're finished. Schools can revoke a degree for something like this. It's so blatant that they would have to. Or you might run into a fellow doctor or a patient who doesn't like you and they could start donig background checks on you to find dirt.

 

[Law2Doc]

The choice of course lies with the OP. I just don't want him to be persuaded by boogeymen and anonymous message board oracles.

Can anyone provide any stats on how many people get "discovered later in their careers?" Or even in medical school for that matter? Absent real statistics, we are left to make our own based on the number of people who have heard about it happening and post in this thread. Even your "D" statistics students will likely be able to identify a flaw in this method.

What numbers do we have? Stats of admitted applicants and their GPAs. Unless the OP has his sights set on Howard or the Caribbean, the simple fact is that the odds are stacked against him. Are their exceptions, sure. But this isn't roulette and he isn't betting $20 on a 2.5% chance that his number will come up. If Johns Hopkins admits 120 people and their median GPA is 3.8, odds are that there aren't too many 3.2s running around in the student lounge. Are there one or two? Probably. But it’s a heck of a long shot to bet your future on being the one out of 5800 applicants.

I don't think statistics has much to do with it. Using your prior tax analogy - A very very small percentage of the population actually get nabbed for cheating on taxes. But it is not a smart thing to do, no matter how you slice it. (Feel free to ask a lawyer or accountant if you'd rather not rely on us online boogeymen)..

 

[SpinEcho13]

The choice of course lies with the OP. I just don't want him to be persuaded by boogeymen and anonymous message board oracles.

Can anyone provide any stats on how many people get "discovered later in their careers?" Or even in medical school for that matter? Absent real statistics, we are left to make our own based on the number of people who have heard about it happening and post in this thread. Even your "D" statistics students will likely be able to identify a flaw in this method.

What numbers do we have? Stats of admitted applicants and their GPAs. Unless the OP has his sights set on Howard or the Caribbean, the simple fact is that the odds are stacked against him. Are their exceptions, sure. But this isn't roulette and he isn't betting $20 on a 2.5% chance that his number will come up. If Johns Hopkins admits 120 people and their median GPA is 3.8, odds are that there aren't too many 3.2s running around in the student lounge. Are there one or two? Probably. But it’s a heck of a long shot to bet your future on being the one out of 5800 applicants.

Wrong. There is a database of attended schools that any school can use to see if a student has been enrolled elsewhere. Even ignoring this, if you recieved financial aid for the school you wish to omit there will be yet another track in the paper trail. My sister was considering transferring after a poor first year and the admissions dept for our state school told us that there is no way she can omit her previous attendance because they will see it when the cross check the database.

Schools see and recognize upward trends, just enter the grades and explain them. Everything will work out.

 

[jstuds_66]

The choice of course lies with the OP. I just don't want him to be persuaded by boogeymen and anonymous message board oracles.

Can anyone provide any stats on how many people get "discovered later in their careers?" Or even in medical school for that matter? Absent real statistics, we are left to make our own based on the number of people who have heard about it happening and post in this thread. Even your "D" statistics students will likely be able to identify a flaw in this method.

What numbers do we have? Stats of admitted applicants and their GPAs. Unless the OP has his sights set on Howard or the Caribbean, the simple fact is that the odds are stacked against him. Are their exceptions, sure. But this isn't roulette and he isn't betting $20 on a 2.5% chance that his number will come up. If Johns Hopkins admits 120 people and their median GPA is 3.8, odds are that there aren't too many 3.2s running around in the student lounge. Are there one or two? Probably. But it’s a heck of a long shot to bet your future on being the one out of 5800 applicants.

Stats on who gets caught don't matter to the person who gets caught. This is an issue of whether you have integrity or not. I really don't think that bad grades 9 yrs ago will make the difference of whether you get it or not. I know this is going to make me sound young, but 9 years ago I was failing my 8th grade science and history classes. Granted, that doesn't show up to AMCAS, but the point is that they care more about what you've done recently. Do the right thing; tell the truth.

To put this in the occupational context, as other people have done, I wouldn't want to work with you if I know you lied on your application. If I was a patient, I wouldn't go to you knowing that you lied to get into med school. How would I know that you wouldn't cheat me out of a practice, or focus more on money than my health. If you want to get in, show the admissions committee that you can face consequences and take responsability for what you've done. Most importantly, make it into a positive experience. What did you learn that year? What did you learn after you realized that those grades would haunt you. One answer might include something like you learned that even if you do get really mad at somebody, you need to learn how to work with them. Anyway, include that school and those grades on your application. And sorry if I sound like a stuck up jerk.

 

[hermit]

Wrong. There is a database of attended schools that any school can use to see if a student has been enrolled elsewhere.

Link?

 

[Law2Doc]

Link?

Why would they put such a thing for free online? If it has academic info of many millions of people, along with student IDs (often SS#s), it would be an identity theif's wet dream and a huge lawsuit waiting to happen if it wasn't seriously password protected and very very restricted access. So even if it exists, you are never going to see/find it.

 

[Darkshooter326]

Seriously, just because the database exists does not mean you can look at it. "link?" haha, i was laughing very hard at that. Med schools and universities in general know way more than you'd think. There is no point in lying about things, it will eventually come back to haunt you. List the courses, and be prepared to explain if necessary what happened.

 

[hermit]

Why would they put such a thing for free online?

No, genius. I don't mean provide a searchable front end for it. I mean post a link of an article or some indication that this exists. Something better than "my sister said that a student worker in the admissions office said..." Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to aggregate academic records from different schools - thousands of different schools and who knows how many systems? We aren't talking about MS Access databases here. Who is paying for this monster and its maintenance? Heck, my current state of residence never even managed to get my driving record transferred from another state.

So even if it exists, you are never going to see/find it.

I love this comment. Maybe the government transports all of the records each semester in black, unmarked helicopters to Area 51 for safe keeping.

 

[foofish]

No, genius. I don't mean provide a searchable front end for it. I mean post a link of an article or some indication that this exists.

To be fair, I think everyone who saw the post "link?" thought you were looking for the link to see the database. I wouldn't get too hostile over someone failing to interpret the nuance of your one-word post. ;-)

Who is paying for this monster and its maintenance? Heck, my current state of residence never even managed to get my driving record transferred from another state.

And who knows if there's a database, bu on the other hand, these are the same people who fingerprint us for the MCAT and forward our ID photos to the schools we matriculate at....so clearly the AAMC/med school folks are interested in and willing to put a little effort and money in making sure we are who and what we say we are...

And also on the occupational ethics front, not only would I prefer my colleagues and own doctors to be honest, but I'd like the people performing the medical research behind meds and procedures I'll be prescribing to not lie in their findings....

 

[DRDARIA]

Another thing to consider-- depending on where you do your residency, a background check may be required. My residency did. I had to account for where I lived, worked, or went to school since high school! And they DID verify. I had requested a copy of the report, as entitled, and one job was noted as "unverifiable" (and the reason it was unverifiable was given). If you have to do this, you'll have a hard time explaining where that year went.

But even if you didn't get caught, you know it's the wrong thing to do. If you didn't know that, you wouldn't be agonizing over it. Tell all the schools you've attended. Let me assure you I got into a solid mid-tier school with MUCH worse GPA slightly lower MCAT-- and I'm not an underrepresented minority. I just had much better more recent grades (as you do), and some of the other things you mentioned (research, etc), to offset the earlier poor grades.

I hope you decide to include the school. It's the right thing to do, and I really think you'll get in regardless. Good luck.

 

[Law2Doc]

Another thing to consider-- depending on where you do your residency, a background check may be required.

I don't think it even depends on where you do residency. If you are going to get licensed in any profession (not to mention one that gets to prescribe drugs), a significant background check is going to be done.

 

[Darkshooter326]

No, genius. Something better than "my sister said that a student worker in the admissions office said..." Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to aggregate academic records from different schools - thousands of different schools and who knows how many systems? We aren't talking about MS Access databases here.

I love this comment. Maybe the government transports all of the records each semester in black, unmarked helicopters to Area 51 for safe keeping.

You are ******ed and rude. They don't necessarily have to hold onto every grade you have ever received, simply the institutions that you have attended. Matriculation into a university is a pretty big deal, so it would not be hard to keep a record of every student who enrolled in your university. And there is no need to disrespect other people who are offering up whatever information they know. And besides hearsay, nobody here knows anything, so if you don't like that, then stop visiting this site. Obviously you know everything, so there is no need for you to visit SDN.

 

[hermit]

I had to account for where I lived, worked, or went to school since high school! And they DID verify. I had requested a copy of the report, as entitled, and one job was noted as "unverifiable" (and the reason it was unverifiable was given).

Again, interested parties are able to verify info you have provided, not ensure that you have provided all available info.

If you have to do this, you'll have a hard time explaining where that year went.

This is the closest thing to a rational reason that has been offered in this thread. I would argue that it would simply require an explanation.

Look, I have experience in this field or I would not be commenting. I also worked at a pet store in high school - but you won't catch me trying to convince a marine biologist that the loch ness monster really exists. There may be ethical or other compelling reasons for the OP to disclose his academic record. My point from post one has been that he make those decisions based on fact. It is not a fact that ANY school knows about an individual's attendance at another institution unless they are in some way affiliated.

 

[hermit]

You are ******ed and rude.

So you are offended by my ad hominem remark and counter with an ad hominem remark? Your debate skills are indeed formidable, my friend.

 

[Learfan]

Schools threaten a lot but do not have the resources to really check much beyond what you tell them. You will have to undergo a criminal background check in the future but nobody has the time or funding to play "transcript police". Do what you believe is in your best interest and good luck.

I've attended 3 schools: 1 in Cali. about 12 yrs ago, a 2nd school in my current state 9-10 yrs ago, and a 3rd school in my current state beginning 3 yrs ago. I never told my 3rd school about the 2nd school, and they never found out. I'm wondering how safe it is to omit a school from my AMCAS application. I have a friend who just got accepted to Nursing School and did not tell the school about one school previously attended. He has a friend who got accepted to Med School who also did not tell about a school attended in another state. I know it sounds unethical, but I'm worried that I may not make it in to school at all due to the bad grades from 10 yrs ago.

I've had a 3.81 over the past 3 years and pulled a 32 on the MCAT. I did my first year at a Cali. school with a 3.06 GPA about 12 years ago. This drops my overall GPA to 3.58. Then, 9-10 yrs ago I moved to another state and had two HORRIBLE semesters in a row due to "family" problems. I got several UWs (administrative withdraw, which I believe AMCAS counts as Fs), some Fs and Cs and Ds. This drops my overall GPA to 3.21 (or 3.46 if I'm wrong about the UWs).

So, there is the dilemma. I hate to start off my medical career with a lie, but I can't imagine getting accepted with a 3.21 GPA. Am I wrong about that? I would hope so, since I gave up a lot to go back to school. But I truly want to be a doctor. I've never cheated on a test, taxes, lover, etc., and am greatly conflicted. I'll end up as a doctor who lied or as a bum who told the truth (or, yes, I know, a bum who lied and got caught).

Will the ADCOM see past a 3.21 GPA to see that I've had a 3.81 over the past 3 yrs and have been involved in research, volunteering, patient contact, shadowing, tutoring, and TAing? Or will they never even read my PS or look deeper into my grades to see that I've been a stellar student for 3 years?

Does anyone know of real people who did this and got caught? Or got away with it? My 3rd school never found out about the 2nd school, so would AMCAS?

If I omit the 2nd school, and then AMCAS finds out about it, does that ruin my chances? But would my chances be ruined anyway with a 3.21 GPA? Which is the greater gamble?

Please help me with some practical responses to this ethical dilemma.

 

[SpinEcho13]

Hermit, you are a *****. I personally talked on the phone with a staff member from the admissions dept (nowhere did I mention that it was a student). How hard is it to keep a national database of universities attended? Of course they don't have the grades, that is private information. Think about it, there is a database that the med schools use to ensure their enrolled students only hold one acceptance why wouldn't there be something similar to make sure students are double enrolling in undergrad etc.

 

[aliziry]

Hermit, you are a *****. I personally talked on the phone with a staff member from the admissions dept (nowhere did I mention that it was a student). How hard is it to keep a national database of universities attended? Of course they don't have the grades, that is private information. Think about it, there is a database that the med schools use to ensure their enrolled students only hold one acceptance why wouldn't there be something similar to make sure students are double enrolling in undergrad etc.

The med school acceptance is only for 125 schools now think about that for ALL the colleges in the US. People quit believing everything you hear. My god alot of you people are gullible. Hermit was right who the hell would be paying for all of that info to be kept.

 

[SpinEcho13]

The med school acceptance is only for 125 schools now think about that for ALL the colleges in the US. People quit believing everything you hear. My god alot of you people are gullible. Hermit was right who the hell would be paying for all of that info to be kept.

I don't believe everything I hear, I consider it for plausibility. In this case it seems likely that there is SOME form of check done and if it were me in the OP's shoes I would not take the risk. 🙄

 

[GreenGiant]

Hermit, you are a *****. I personally talked on the phone with a staff member from the admissions dept (nowhere did I mention that it was a student). How hard is it to keep a national database of universities attended? Of course they don't have the grades, that is private information. Think about it, there is a database that the med schools use to ensure their enrolled students only hold one acceptance why wouldn't there be something similar to make sure students are double enrolling in undergrad etc.

I hate for my first reply to be in response to this catfight. As I said in my opening post, I personnaly know 2 people who did not report a previous school when applying to Nursing School and Med School. When I was applying to my current 3rd school, a person in the admissions office perhaps having a don't-bother-me-I-don't-care-day was likely a bit too honest with me and said, "You are supposed to report all schools to us, but if you don't, we don't go looking for them... So, if you really don't want to, you really don't have to."

I don't see how there could be a central database, not just for cost reasons, but for privacy issues. Schools have a "verification transcript" that only lists dates attended so that students can let employers etc. find out about their past. The employer, however, cannot start polling schools to find out where you went. I could see a credit report showing a student loan from a time you claim to not have been in school raising some red flags. Still, who could find out which school it was from? My financial aid counselor cannot even look at my loans from previous schools.

I wonder if AMCAS is trying to scare applicants into being completely forthcoming. For example, they ask for grades from classes not even reported on a transcript. (pg. 84 of amcas instructions: "A course entry must be made even if the withdrawn course does not appear on the transcript.") If your school's records office doesn't even have record of a class, how would AMCAS ever find out? They would have to ask every prof. at the school if you ever attended one of their classes.

My hunch is that it is unlikely, but not impossible, that AMCAS would find out. Still, there is always the chance I could get caught (credit check would show financial aid for that year), and as others have pointed out, it does not appear to be worth the risk.

 

[GreenGiant]

Schools threaten a lot but do not have the resources to really check much beyond what you tell them. You will have to undergo a criminal background check in the future but nobody has the time or funding to play "transcript police". Do what you believe is in your best interest and good luck.

Your advise seems to clearly sum up a lot of other posts. Although my heart tells me to tell the truth, my mind tells me that it may be ok to omit it.

The AMCAS states that you list EVERY course taken above secondary school not just the recent ones with good grades. If you fail to list courses and are discovered, your degree, admission etc can be negated at any point. There are plenty of medical students and practicing physicians out there with bad grades. List everything and let the chips fall where they may.

You would be surprised what turns up during background checks and academic checks. We have had to dismiss a few (even as fourth years) for lying on their AMCAS. .

My hunch has been that it is unlikely, but not impossible, that AMCAS would find out. I'm curious if you or others know of people who have actually been caught for omitting a school?

 

[hermit]

Think about it, there is a database that the med schools use to ensure their enrolled students only hold one acceptance why wouldn't there be something similar to make sure students are double enrolling in undergrad etc.

The data of which you speak is uniform and user submitted via a common interface to a single service (with the exception of several Texas schools). Medical schools have agreed upon and accept that system because they have a vested interest in its accuracy. The reverse is not true. Why is this so hard to grasp? Think about what you are suggesting. You are not just talking about universities - every community college in the country would be solely responsible for keeping this info up to date. It would be a manual process. No IT system in use today would be able to rationalize the hundreds of different configurations housing student records - even if it were just names, SSNs, and dates enrolled as another poster suggested. (If this were in place, btw, the grades for each student would be a simple addition. Another question presents itself here - why wouldn't medical schools use this magic trusted database to get transcripts from applicants? Why worry about certified transcripts from individual schools?)

If there were a standard software package that every school used - sure, no problem. But there is not. And a lot of it is proprietary. The information system you guys are imagining would be a nightmare to create and maintain for a multitiude of reasons that are too lengthy to discuss here. There are other CS people on this board. If they've read this far, perhaps they still have the will to type.

 

[GreenGiant]

Thank everyone for your responses so far. One thing I look forward to as a doctor is spending time with intelligent, thoughtful colleagues. I also like the idea of being part of a profession recognized (sometimes) for its humanitarianism and integrity. I am now leaning much more toward the side of maintaining my integrity.

My main concern was that I would not get in at all. Knowing that BozoSparky, DaveinDallas, LO281OK, and DRDARIA got in with similar stories makes my decision easier. I was worried I wouldn’t get in anywhere with the lowered GPA. While it would be nice to have a chance at a top 20 school, I’ll be content with a mid-tier or low-end school. In the end, I just want to be a doctor. I know I would not like to have a lie hanging over my head for the rest of my life.

 

[hermit]

GreenGiant - can't talk long, I am on the phone with some venture capitalists discussing the millions there are to be made off of an untapped and gullible premed demographic...but this:

credit check would show financial aid for that year

would make me a little leery about not disclosing. That represents a paper trail that even a state employed admissions officer could follow if they accidentally looked beyond the GPA and MCAT column.

 

[Law2Doc]

The med school acceptance is only for 125 schools now think about that for ALL the colleges in the US. People quit believing everything you hear. My god alot of you people are gullible. Hermit was right who the hell would be paying for all of that info to be kept.

I'm not so sure who is the gullible one here. But if anyone is really interested, for a couple of hundred bucks, you can probably hire one of the same background search services that does searches for the licensing boards to do a background check on you. You might be surprised what they can find, and what channels they are able to use, so long as they have your SS# and permission.

And again, we are talking about resources available today. Resources available 5-10 years from now, when people on here are seeking licensure and get background checked again, may be even better. And to get caught then would leave you $200k poorer.

 

[NontradICUdoc]

The data of which you speak is uniform and user submitted via a common interface to a single service (with the exception of several Texas schools). Medical schools have agreed upon and accept that system because they have a vested interest in its accuracy. The reverse is not true. Why is this so hard to grasp? Think about what you are suggesting. You are not just talking about universities - every community college in the country would be solely responsible for keeping this info up to date. It would be a manual process. No IT system in use today would be able to rationalize the hundreds of different configurations housing student records - even if it were just names, SSNs, and dates enrolled as another poster suggested. (If this were in place, btw, the grades for each student would be a simple addition. Another question presents itself here - why wouldn't medical schools use this magic trusted database to get transcripts from applicants? Why worry about certified transcripts from individual schools?)

If there were a standard software package that every school used - sure, no problem. But there is not. And a lot of it is proprietary. The information system you guys are imagining would be a nightmare to create and maintain for a multitiude of reasons that are too lengthy to discuss here. There are other CS people on this board. If they've read this far, perhaps they still have the will to type.

Look. People DO lie about everything. However, eventually you will get caught. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow. But one day. For example: http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0606/334290.html

http://www.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/fsacoach/lesson8_1/8_1_70.html

http://www.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/fsacoach/module_menu.html

if you apply for financial aid, the school will know what your academic hostory is if you already had student loans

 

[hermit]

If you apply for financial aid, the school will know what your academic history is if you already had student loans.

I agree.

 

[aliziry]

I'm not so sure who is the gullible one here. But if anyone is really interested, for a couple of hundred bucks, you can probably hire one of the same background search services that does searches for the licensing boards to do a background check on you. You might be surprised what they can find, and what channels they are able to use, so long as they have your SS# and permission.

And again, we are talking about resources available today. Resources available 5-10 years from now, when people on here are seeking licensure and get background checked again, may be even better. And to get caught then would leave you $200k poorer.

But that data would have to be updated 5-10 years from now. Imagine the sheer numbers of it all. I partially agree about the background checks but I just dont think that people should believe that everything they have ever done is easily found out with a $50 background check. That is just insane.

 

[Law2Doc]

But that data would have to be updated 5-10 years from now. Imagine the sheer numbers of it all. I partially agree about the background checks but I just dont think that people should believe that everything they have ever done is easily found out with a $50 background check. That is just insane.

That data is being kept in computerized form already -- any school you have attended has a computerized record of the years you attended, the grades you received, the degree you received, etc. They keep this forever. Nontrads many decades out of school are still able to obtain certified copies of their college transcripts. The issue is only if there is or will be a unified clearinghouse of this info that can be searched. Nothing needs to be "updated" the info is all in digital form already at the respective schools. I certainly wouldn't bet that database technology won't make this occur at some point during your career if it isn't already in existence. And since licenses need to be renewed, there will be many points at which a background check could be done.

 

[ChymeChancellor]

That data is being kept in computerized form already -- any school you have attended has a computerized record of the years you attended, the grades you received, the degree you received, etc. They keep this forever. Nontrads many decades out of school are still able to obtain certified copies of their college transcripts. The issue is only if there is or will be a unified clearinghouse of this info that can be searched. Nothing needs to be "updated" the info is all in digital form already at the respective schools. I certainly wouldn't bet that database technology won't make this occur at some point during your career if it isn't already in existence. And since licenses need to be renewed, there will be many points at which a background check could be done.

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/

😕

 

[Darth Asclepius]

I could see a credit report showing a student loan from a time you claim to not have been in school raising some red flags. Still, who could find out which school it was from? My financial aid counselor cannot even look at my loans from previous schools.

On my credit report, one of my student loans specifically names the school I was attending. I would imagine it wouldn't be hard to find out which school a loan was for.

 

[breck]

I've attended 3 schools: 1 in Cali. about 12 yrs ago, a 2nd school in my current state 9-10 yrs ago, and a 3rd school in my current state beginning 3 yrs ago. I never told my 3rd school about the 2nd school, and they never found out. I'm wondering how safe it is to omit a school from my AMCAS application.

I've had a 3.81 over the past 3 years and pulled a 32 on the MCAT. I did my first year at a Cali. school with a 3.06 GPA about 12 years ago. This drops my overall GPA to 3.58. Then, 9-10 yrs ago I moved to another state and had two HORRIBLE semesters in a row due to "family" problems. I got several UWs (administrative withdraw, which I believe AMCAS counts as Fs), some Fs and Cs and Ds. This drops my overall GPA to 3.21 (or 3.46 if I'm wrong about the UWs).

So, there is the dilemma. I hate to start off my medical career with a lie, but I can't imagine getting accepted with a 3.21 GPA. Am I wrong about that? I would hope so, since I gave up a lot to go back to school. But I truly want to be a doctor. I've never cheated on a test, taxes, lover, etc., and am greatly conflicted. I'll end up as a doctor who lied or as a bum who told the truth (or, yes, I know, a bum who lied and got caught).

Will the ADCOM see past a 3.21 GPA to see that I've had a 3.81 over the past 3 yrs and have been involved in research, volunteering, patient contact, shadowing, tutoring, and TAing? Or will they never even read my PS or look deeper into my grades to see that I've been a stellar student for 3 years?

I don't want to get involved in all the bickering but here are my thoughts. You definitely have an ethical dilemma here. The right thing to do is not always necessarily the smart thing to do. Wouldn't it suck to be honest and not get in when you know others have been dishonest and gotten in?? Also, wouldn't it suck to be one of the few who gets busted for it?? Tough choices. If I were you I would be honest and just list it. It may hurt your chances of getting in but we are talking about something that took place 12 years ago so the amount of weight this will carry in a decision about your application is definitely questionable. It does give you an opportunity to show that you, like most people, have encountered some bumps in the road which you managed to overcome. It also gives you an opportunity to demonstrate that you are an honest person. If I read your application and saw things that old on there I would think "Hey, he/she could have been deceptive and omitted this information, so we must have an honest person on our hands". (So you may actually gain a small benefit by listing this.) In addition to this there will be many chances on secondary applications for you to discuss overcoming hard times and you will lose the opportunity to show that your drive and determination allowed you to keep your head up and persist through them. Finally, you'll never have to worry about your lie being revealed or whether or not it is, or will be, possible. You may have a bit more to gain by lying if you had a mid-20's MCAT score or 3.4 GPA in your last three years but your recent academic record is solid, so I'd be honest. Besides what if you do withold information and still don't get in. You know that is a possibility. How would you like to withold information, not get in, then find out next year there is some new system in place that reveals everything about your academic history (I'm not going to respond to 30 posts about the chances of this happening, I'm just posing a scenario). Then you'd have to reapply and explain why you "forgot" to include your full academic history. Then you will have a real problem on your hands. Why don't you call a few of the schools you're interested in and ask them what kind of weight they give to grades that are 10-12 years old?? Maybe this could help you come to a conclusion on what you should do. If you could be sure everyone was going to be honest you wouldn't have to worry about getting "beat out" by those who are dishonest. But if you withold information you become part of this problem. Anyway, good luck with your decision.