OMM vs Chiropractic

[sunshinevet]

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Before I start, this is a serious question so please, no flaming!!! I think it may have something to do with a different country thing, and I'm sincerely curious!!!

So, here in Australia, I regularly go see a chiropractor, for lower back and neck pain. He manually adjusts my neck and back and gives me soft tissue work as well. No hocus pocus, no "i just realigned your soul" just, you have limited ROM in your neck, here, let me adjust it for you. (And trust me, I am an alternative medicine skeptic... but I do find getting my neck adjusted makes a SIGNIFICANT difference in the number of headaches I get).

Also, here in Australia, no doctor does any kind of manual manipulation like a chiropractor does. So in a DO like, a normal doctor combined with my chiropractor? And what is the difference between chiropractors in the states and DO's? I mean, apart from the medical degree? Do chiros in the states function as I've described, or is there a lot more "here, go take these herbal homepathic tablets and rebalance your chen..."?

 

[Neuron14]

Before I start, this is a serious question so please, no flaming!!! I think it may have something to do with a different country thing, and I'm sincerely curious!!!

So, here in Australia, I regularly go see a chiropractor, for lower back and neck pain. He manually adjusts my neck and back and gives me soft tissue work as well. No hocus pocus, no "i just realigned your soul" just, you have limited ROM in your neck, here, let me adjust it for you. (And trust me, I am an alternative medicine skeptic... but I do find getting my neck adjusted makes a SIGNIFICANT difference in the number of headaches I get).

Also, here in Australia, no doctor does any kind of manual manipulation like a chiropractor does. So in a DO like, a normal doctor combined with my chiropractor? And what is the difference between chiropractors in the states and DO's? I mean, apart from the medical degree? Do chiros in the states function as I've described, or is there a lot more "here, go take these herbal homepathic tablets and rebalance your chen..."?

In the United States D.O.'s are physicians with an unlimited scope of practice, like MD/MBBS, with additional training in manual manipulation. In contrast, the scope of practice for chiropractors is limited and varies from state to state. Some states limit chiropractors to manipulation, whereas others allow chiropractors to provide nutritional advice.

 

[Atom bum]

Manipulation done by a DO is different than adjustments done by a Chiropractor. OMM has also undergone clinical studies that have proven it helps.
I am unsure if the same has been done for chiropractic adjustments, but it is very possible.

 

[AMEHigh]

Manipulation done by a DO is different than adjustments done by a Chiropractor. OMM has also undergone clinical studies that have proven it helps.
I am unsure if the same has been done for chiropractic adjustments, but it is very possible.

This is false. Not all techniques are inherently different according to my own research and my professors. However as the previous poster pointed out, DOs can practice the rule scope of medicine and prescribe medication. DOs are able to diagnose and then prescribe the best form of care whether that be antibiotics, OMT, both, etc.

 

[Atom bum]

This is false. Not all techniques are inherently different according to my own research and my professors. However as the previous poster pointed out, DOs can practice the rule scope of medicine and prescribe medication. DOs are able to diagnose and then prescribe the best form of care whether that be antibiotics, OMT, both, etc.

Thanks for clarifying. I was just going off of something I read in this forum somewhere. They basically said that Chiro's use large adjustments while OMM use minor ones... Or something along those lines.

 

[taylormade2006]

Manipulation done by a DO is different than adjustments done by a Chiropractor. OMM has also undergone clinical studies that have proven it helps.
I am unsure if the same has been done for chiropractic adjustments, but it is very possible.

Atom bum, if you look on Pubmed, you should be able to find some studies regarding chiropractic adjustments. A few things you should consider when evaluating trials or papers discussing manipulation is who actually is providing the treatment (sometimes studies about manipulation are done by providers who are not chiropractors or DOs) as well as the trial size and design. It is very difficult to double blind manual therapy because it is difficult to blind the treating provider. Reference the journals "Spine" or "Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics".

Check out PMID 14589467 and 15125860.

To those of you who are DOs and to those of you who are DO students; do you think OMT/OMM is simply the power of suggestion, placebo, or something similar?

NextLevelDoc, if you have a chance, read the article I linked to above (PMID 14589467). The title of the paper is "Neurophysiological effects of spinal manipulation" by JG Pickar DC, PhD.

 

[st2205]

To those of you who are DOs and to those of you who are DO students; do you think OMT/OMM is simply the power of suggestion, placebo, or something similar?

The problems and the treatments vary widely. Some yes, others most definitely not.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I haven't started yet (so take this with a grain of salt), but from what I understand, HVLA is the most similar technique with regard to traditional chiropractic. Also, I've heard OMM is a lot more about diagnosis of dysfunction, then making small adjustments, instead of using a "shotgun" approach, where you crack first and ask questions later.

 

[st2205]

Having been a chiropractic patient I would concur with the above. Every treatment I've received was shotgun (not that it ended up bad).

 

[JaggerPlate]

Just for the record ... I haven't had success with Chiro in the past, but I don't like to generalize/bad mouth. Just like MD/DOs, there are good and bad DCs, and I know some people who swear by it.

 

[AMEHigh]

To those of you who are DOs and to those of you who are DO students; do you think OMT/OMM is simply the power of suggestion, placebo, or something similar?

No, not all OMT.

 

[facetguy]

I haven't started yet (so take this with a grain of salt), but from what I understand, HVLA is the most similar technique with regard to traditional chiropractic. Also, I've heard OMM is a lot more about diagnosis of dysfunction, then making small adjustments, instead of using a "shotgun" approach, where you crack first and ask questions later.

Just for the record ... I haven't had success with Chiro in the past, but I don't like to generalize/bad mouth. Just like MD/DOs, there are good and bad DCs, and I know some people who swear by it.

Partial redemption.😉

 

[JaggerPlate]

^^

see the "taken with a grain of salt" in my original response. I'm still a noob, and was simply parroting SDN banter. I'll know more soon 🙂

 

[facetguy]

^^

see the "taken with a grain of salt" in my original response. I'm still a noob, and was simply parroting SDN banter. I'll know more soon 🙂 ...

...about osteopathic methods, but still won't have direct insights into chiropractic😛.

Seriously, though, it's been my experience that just the opposite is true (obviously not in 100% of cases, but easily the majority). DOs tend to generically manipulate as a quick add-on (can you say "additional billable service"?), whereas chiros are more deliberate in examination and more specific from a manual treatment perspective. A few of the DOs in my area may do some manipulation on 'easy' cases, but refer to chiros for cases requiring more manual therapy efforts (and I don't blame them, as they are busy-as-heck family physicians who can't get bogged down with a bunch of neck and back pain patients coming back over and over).

 

[JaggerPlate]

...about osteopathic methods, but still won't have direct insights into chiropractic😛.

Definitely true. However, this is better than my current insight of ... nothing 😀

Seriously, though, it's been my experience that just the opposite is true (obviously not in 100% of cases, but easily the majority). DOs tend to generically manipulate as a quick add-on (can you say "additional billable service"?), whereas chiros are more deliberate in examination and more specific from a manual treatment perspective. A few of the DOs in my area may do some manipulation on 'easy' cases, but refer to chiros for cases requiring more manual therapy efforts (and I don't blame them, as they are busy-as-heck family physicians who can't get bogged down with a bunch of neck and back pain patients coming back over and over).

I don't know if it's fair to compare a FP guy who sees 30 patients a day (though you're dead on about the additional billing, and I think the AOA has worked pretty hard to see that it remains separate) to a DC who strictly does manipulation. It would probably be more "fair" to compare someone who did a NMM/OMM residency and practices strict manipulation to a DC.

 

[facetguy]

Definitely true. However, this is better than my current insight of ... nothing 😀



I don't know if it's fair to compare a FP guy who sees 30 patients a day (though you're dead on about the additional billing, and I think the AOA has worked pretty hard to see that it remains separate) to a DC who strictly does manipulation. It would probably be more "fair" to compare someone who did a NMM/OMM residency and practices strict manipulation to a DC.

These are very few and far between. The 'typical' DO either does zero OMM or only dabbles. You have the right attitude of looking forward to checking OMM out, giving it a shot, and deciding whether it fits in with your future professional career. I bothers me a bit that there are DO students, or prospective DO students, who completely denigrate OMM; I'm sure you feel the same way.

 

[noshie]

I didn't have much time to read the above replies... Its too early.

However, I conducted some research in an OMM lab at UNTHSC (TCOM) for a few months. OMM is used for more than just back aches and neck pain. It can be an effective tool for pathogen clearance and the prevention of disease. Our models were based on this part of OMM. I think that many people are misguided on why OMM is used, mostly because there is not a ton of research on it. My lab was using animal models of disease. Here is a paper from the lab, check it out on Pubmed...

Abdominal lymphatic pump treatment increases leukocyte count and flux in thoracic duct lymph.
Hodge LM, King HH, Williams AG Jr, Reder SJ, Belavadi T, Simecka JW, Stoll ST, Downey HF.
Published in Lymphatic Research and Biology

I spoke with one DO med student once that told me a physician she was working with raved about how the women he performed OMM on regularly did not develop cancer at any point in their life. That is one of the reasons this research came about, it's a tool that promotes wellness in a variety of ways. To compare it to what a chiropractor does is just way off of the whole point of why OMM is used!

 

[Styria]

I don't know if it's fair to compare a FP guy who sees 30 patients a day (though you're dead on about the additional billing, and I think the AOA has worked pretty hard to see that it remains separate) to a DC who strictly does manipulation. It would probably be more "fair" to compare someone who did a NMM/OMM residency and practices strict manipulation to a DC.

Make sure to go to the AAO (the specialty college for OMT) Convocation someday and see "Evening with the Stars."

 

[facetguy]

I didn’t have much time to read the above replies... Its too early.

However, I conducted some research in an OMM lab at UNTHSC (TCOM) for a few months. OMM is used for more than just back aches and neck pain. It can be an effective tool for pathogen clearance and the prevention of disease. Our models were based on this part of OMM. I think that many people are misguided on why OMM is used, mostly because there is not a ton of research on it. My lab was using animal models of disease. Here is a paper from the lab, check it out on Pubmed...

Abdominal lymphatic pump treatment increases leukocyte count and flux in thoracic duct lymph.
Hodge LM, King HH, Williams AG Jr, Reder SJ, Belavadi T, Simecka JW, Stoll ST, Downey HF.
Published in Lymphatic Research and Biology

I spoke with one DO med student once that told me a physician she was working with raved about how the women he performed OMM on regularly did not develop cancer at any point in their life. That is one of the reasons this research came about, it’s a tool that promotes wellness in a variety of ways. To compare it to what a chiropractor does is just way off of the whole point of why OMM is used!

Over the years, chiropractors have made many claims as to the curative powers of manual medicine. Unfortunately, almost none of it has any research behind it. That's not to say it never will, however in today's world you've got to have at least some data. That's why the vast majority of research efforts have so far focused on the obvious conditions, namely neck and back pain. There are smaller studies on other conditions, and there are a variety of models as to why manipulation should/could be helpful for any number of things out there. But, it sounds like Noshie is traveling a road that chiropractors have already traveled and have been excoriated for. Do your research, yes, but be cautious and guarded as to claims you make today. Preventing cancer with OMM is a tall order, and even as a chiropractor I don't buy it. Simply being a DO doesn't change reality, and if anything these claims hurt the osteopathic profession (especially in the eyes of allopaths).

 

[Neuron14]

I agree. That's a very bold association, especially with increasing emphasis on evidence-based medicine.

 

[noshie]

I agree. That's a very bold association, especially with increasing emphasis on evidence-based medicine.

That’s why they are using animal models of cancer now to test it. It makes a lot of mechanical sense to me. Pumping techniques move leukocytes thereby increasing the flow to the infection site. They used a pneumonia model too and it was very interesting. They should be publishing this data soon.

 

[Neuron14]

That's why they are using animal models of cancer now to test it. It makes a lot of mechanical sense to me. Pumping techniques move leukocytes thereby increasing the flow to the infection site. They used a pneumonia model too and it was very interesting. They should be publishing this data soon.

I definitely agree, it's an intriguing study. OMM seems like it could play an important role during vaccinations if it helps to improve the overall immune response compared to Intramuscular injections. Yea, mechanistically it seems reasonable that more DCs/APCs would be at the injection site if you're increasing flow to the area.

 

[JaggerPlate]

These are very few and far between. The 'typical' DO either does zero OMM or only dabbles. You have the right attitude of looking forward to checking OMM out, giving it a shot, and deciding whether it fits in with your future professional career. I bothers me a bit that there are DO students, or prospective DO students, who completely denigrate OMM; I'm sure you feel the same way.

It definitely bothers me, especially because most people make assumptions based off things like SDN or other people's opinions. I know that most people go to DO school because they want to come out and strictly practice medicine in their respective field, but I've always looked at it like they are paying 200k for the entire experience, so dismissing OMM right out of the gate seems like a HUGE waste all around. Now, if you go into it with an open mind and hate it ... different story, and I get that.

Having said that ... there are some valid reasons to question OMM right away, and I really, really wish some of these issues were fixed. The biggest problem is that research is "lacking" - meaning there are studies, but most of them aren't published in the journals people want them to be published in, and a lot fall prey to the same faults, simply because it's difficult to design studies that test manual medicine and still follow the practices of good research (ie - double blind). However, I've read some excellent studies in big names - NEJM, American Journal of OB/GYN, etc, AND some great articles from sources people are sometimes quick to dismiss - JAOA. Because of this, a lot of the OMM credit comes from gurus who pass down knowledge and techniques through anecdotal evidence and personal experiences. Furthermore, this lack of research leads to the propagation of things that people really have a hard time swallowing, and may be slightly misguided - like cranial osteopathy.

Personally, I'm thrilled to start OMM. Call me naive, or whatever, but learning OMM/OMT was one of the big reasons I wanted to attend a DO school, and the strength of the program at my specific school was one of the reasons I opted to attend. I definitely think it has it's place, and if people would respect this, if the research catches up, and if some of the unproven techniques were optional or dismissed, it would really catch on even more. I really hope I can do my part to make this happen (sounds ambitious, I know), and I hope I can use OMM in my practice!

 

[DocMatt]

Also, here in Australia, no doctor does any kind of manual manipulation like a chiropractor does. So in a DO like, a normal doctor combined with my chiropractor? And what is the difference between chiropractors in the states and DO's? I mean, apart from the medical degree? Do chiros in the states function as I've described, or is there a lot more "here, go take these herbal homepathic tablets and rebalance your chen..."?

Want to know more about Chiropractor? Dr. Roller specializes in spinal rehabilitation using the Pettibon Technique and pediatric chiropractic. I'm sure he will help you answer your question 🙂

 

[MalachiConstant]

Want to know more about Chiropractor? Dr. Roller specializes in spinal rehabilitation using the Pettibon Technique and pediatric chiropractic. I'm sure he will help you answer your question 🙂

I doubt your spamming helps the reputation of chiropractors.
Also, from your website . . .

Adjusting style- Manual adjusting using hands . . . the pressure can be . . . strong enough to get large stiff men to adjust.

Interesting practice you have there. J/K of course, but a rewording may be in order.

 

[CookDeRosa]

I grew up in a chiropractic household, my dad is a DC. We live in chiro Mecca (THE Palmer College of Chiropractic is in my town) where there is a practice on every corner (literally), and the quantity of chiropractors here is ridiculous.
In a nutshell, it boils down to a philosophy about homeostasis. Chiropractors believe in homeostasis, but use manipulation as a method of wellness. Being "out" of alignment interrupts your body's ability to function normally (which isn't counterintuitive- I think most people would buy that) but to take it one click further (and where I differ in my belief) is that by correcting you create healing (As opposed to maintaining) wellness.
Chiropractors, here anyway, are decidedly non-medical model of treatment. There are a lot of combo practices which incorporate reflexology, acupuncture, massage, homeopathics, etc. Ped chiros are big here too, and this goes into a huge anti-vaccination/anti pediatrician arena. So, I think that you can't only look at the kind of manipulations they do and if they work, in many cases it's more of a philosophy/lifestyle than a back adjustment.

 

[DocMatt]

but a rewording may be in order.

Eeks! yes, thank you that hadn't even crossed my mind! I fixed it!
THANK YOU!

One thing that is important to understand about Chiropractic is that it isn't a specialty, it is a field of medicine, for example- you have an MD, and in the MD class you have people that specialize in feet, delivering babies, cancer, surgery.....going to one MD isn't the same as going to the office next door.

Chiropractic is the same way, while we are all DCs, some specialize in feet, some specialize in neurology, some sports medicine, some like myself- spinal rehabilitation, and some with pregnancy related issues, or pediatric issues. One thing we have not done a good job at though is branding those specialties.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Ped chiros are big here too, and this goes into a huge anti-vaccination/anti pediatrician arena.

This is where I start to take a big, big issue. If an adult, who is capable of research and making their own decisions, wants to shun mainstream medicine and get medical advice from Jenny McCarthy - whatever. However, when you bring kids into the mix and these non-physicians start giving harmful medical advice and discouraging pediatric care ... I take issue. That's horrible, and I hope most of these parents are smart enough to see through the BS before kids get hurt.

 

[JaggerPlate]

One thing that is important to understand about Chiropractic is that it isn't a specialty, it is a field of medicine

Nope. It's not. It's CAM. Cardiology is a field of medicine ... Chiropractic is not. You can't get a DO/MD and do a residency in Chiro. DO/MD = physician = medicine.

Chiropractic is the same way, while we are all DCs, some specialize in feet, some specialize in neurology, some sports medicine, some like myself- spinal rehabilitation, and some with pregnancy related issues, or pediatric issues. One thing we have not done a good job at though is branding those specialties.

Can I see some links to your neurology, sports medicine, PM&R, OB/GYN, and Peds residency programs?

This gets so old ... if you want to practice neurology, or PM&R, or whatever, go to medical school and become a doctor. Period. Until then, every DC, DNP, ND, etc, who thinks they are a doctor and come on these boards to discuss why they should have better practice rights and how they specialize in "X" field can just stop. I'm not trying to be an ass (probably failed though), but you aren't a physician. Spinal manipulation can be a helpful alternative to a lot of people, but touting yourself as a specialist in Neurology or Pediatrics is just dangerous and false.

 

[taylormade2006]

Jagger,

There are legitimate diplomate (residency) programs available within the profession, requiring 300 credit hour residencies (typically appx 3 years post graduate) and having their own board examinations and recertification requirements.

Neurology: http://www.acnb.org/purposeelig.html
Radiology: http://www.acbr.org/index.html (I know this site looks elementary)
Sports Medicine: http://www.acbsp.com/certifications.htm

The unfortunate thing is that some doctors will include statements like "specializing in ________" without having the appropriate diplomate to back it up. This can be misleading to the public.

If a consumer wants to know if a chiropractor truly is a specialist in the field he or she suggests, then they should look for the additional initials after their name (i.e. John Johnson, DC, DACBR (radiology) etc).

 

[taylormade2006]

Jagger, FWIW, I wasn't trying to serve you or anything like that. You seem genuinely interested in the topic and I wanted to share information.

 

[tkim]

Jagger,

There are legitimate diplomate (residency) programs available within the profession, requiring 300 credit hour residencies (typically appx 3 years post graduate) and having their own board examinations and recertification requirements.

Neurology: http://www.acnb.org/purposeelig.html
Radiology: http://www.acbr.org/index.html (I know this site looks elementary)
Sports Medicine: http://www.acbsp.com/certifications.htm

The unfortunate thing is that some doctors will include statements like "specializing in ________" without having the appropriate diplomate to back it up. This can be misleading to the public.

If a consumer wants to know if a chiropractor truly is a specialist in the field he or she suggests, then they should look for the additional initials after their name (i.e. John Johnson, DC, DACBR (radiology) etc).

I checked into some of those sites. At best, some of the 'residencies' offered a stipend of ~$30K/yr and only took 1 person per year, and there were only a handful - literally, of those. The rest required paying tuition and led up to a a Master's degree being awarded. Some sold logo apparel straight from their website.

They may be what constitutes 'residencies' in the chiropractic world, but there's no comparison between a 300 credit hour graduate course, to the roughly 8000-10,000 hours of training one gets during a minimum 3 year ACGME/AOA residency.

 

[Neuron14]

I checked into some of those sites. At best, some of the 'residencies' offered a stipend of ~$30K/yr and only took 1 person per year, and there were only a handful - literally, of those. The rest required paying tuition and led up to a a Master's degree being awarded. Some sold logo apparel straight from their website.

They may be what constitutes 'residencies' in the chiropractic world, but there's no comparison between a 300 credit hour graduate course, to the roughly 8000-10,000 hours of training one gets during a minimum 3 year ACGME/AOA residency.

👍

 

[JaggerPlate]

Jagger, no disrespect, but you just got served.

Hahaha, are you joking??? Dude, go look at some of the hours required in an ACGME/AOA residency ... we are honestly comparing 300 hours in, essentially, an unaccredited program to 10,000 - 16,000 hours in an ACGME/AOA residency. This doesn't even take into account the matching process, steps, tests to be BC, etc, etc.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Jagger, FWIW, I wasn't trying to serve you or anything like that. You seem genuinely interested in the topic and I wanted to share information.

Hahaha, no stress. Personally, I really, really didn't take it that way. Frankly, I'm not surprised some sort of graduate/certificate program exists to differentiate "radiology expert chiros" from pediatric chiropractors (for example). However, my earlier comment was simply referring to the fact that DocMatt was essentially saying DCs can specialize in an area like Neurology. Since, in my book, specialization - when the term "medicine" is involved - refers to a residency in said field, when someone says "I specialize in Neurology," I expect to see an ACGME/AOA accredited residency that backs this claim. That is what I was referring to.

Furthermore, you're right - I am genuinely interested in manual therapy.

 

[docdoc121]

how many hours do chiropractic students have in manipulation while in chiro school? how many hours do physical therapists have in PT school? heck, how many hours do massage therapists have in massage therapy school? i know DOs have about 200-300 hours along with a med school curriculum.

 

[taylormade2006]

As I posted, the 300 hours are credit hours, not actual hours. Residents are usually working at the schools 8-10 hours/day. Of course this is much less than 30 hours/day for medical residents. 300 actual hours is only about 2 months of full time work - these residencies take 3 years to complete.

Jagger, believe it or not, some patients are afraid of or apprehensive about seeing medical doctors. If they choose to see chiropractors instead, they should at least have the option of seeing doctors with appropriate additional training. These diplomates are not simply "certifications". I think it is a good thing that the profession has recognized a need and addressed it. As tkim stated, the stipends are only around $30,000 per year, hardly a money maker. They also assume higher malpractice premiums as a result of specialist designation post residency and do not bill for any additional services a regular chiropractor could not also bill for.

This is an old study, but it is a good read to someone who is genuinely interested in learning more about chiropractic radiologists and their abilities.

Taylor JA, Clopton P, Bosch E, et al. Interpretation of abnormal lumbosacral spine radiographs. A test comparing students, clinicians, radiology residents, and radiologists in medicine and chiropractic. Spine. 1995 May 15;20(10):1147-53. PMID: 7638657

If you can not access the full text, the results portion of the abstract is pretty long and contains information pertinent to this discussion.

docdoc121, it is just over 400 hours for chiropractic students (lab, not counting lecture hours ~600 counting lecture). (http://www.wschiro.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=44) You can easily find this information on most of the schools' websites.

 

[Neuron14]

30 hours/day

 

[taylormade2006]

No kidding about the 30 hour days. That will be tough.

 

[Neuron14]

.

 

[JaggerPlate]

As I posted, the 300 hours are credit hours, not actual hours. Residents are usually working at the schools 8-10 hours/day. Of course this is much less than 30 hours/day for medical residents. 300 actual hours is only about 2 months of full time work - these residencies take 3 years to complete.

Jagger, believe it or not, some patients are afraid of or apprehensive about seeing medical doctors. If they choose to see chiropractors instead, they should at least have the option of seeing doctors with appropriate additional training. These diplomates are not simply "certifications". I think it is a good thing that the profession has recognized a need and addressed it. As tkim stated, the stipends are only around $30,000 per year, hardly a money maker. They also assume higher malpractice premiums as a result of specialist designation post residency and do not bill for any additional services a regular chiropractor could not also bill for.

This is an old study, but it is a good read to someone who is genuinely interested in learning more about chiropractic radiologists and their abilities.

Taylor JA, Clopton P, Bosch E, et al. Interpretation of abnormal lumbosacral spine radiographs. A test comparing students, clinicians, radiology residents, and radiologists in medicine and chiropractic. Spine. 1995 May 15;20(10):1147-53. PMID: 7638657

If you can not access the full text, the results portion of the abstract is pretty long and contains information pertinent to this discussion.

docdoc121, it is just over 400 hours for chiropractic students (lab, not counting lecture hours ~600 counting lecture). (http://www.wschiro.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=44) You can easily find this information on most of the schools' websites.

Taylor ... here is my issue.

You're right. Additional education is good and it's nice that these DCs are able to better assist their patients. However, like I said earlier, one of these graduate programs in, Radiology, for example is not the same thing as an ACGME/AOA residency completed by a MD/DO. What happens when these DCs see a patient who is apprehensive about seeing medical doctors in the first place (like you said), some scans are done, and because the DC has additionally Radiology training, it's read, but something crucial is missed or improperly diagnosed (something small, very technical, only something a BC radiologist would catch, etc)??? You now have a Chiropractor who is telling the patient everything is fine, encouraging this attitude of not seeing a physician, and a patient with a problem that is only going to get worse??? I just don't think it's advantageous to patients.

 

[tkim]

As I posted, the 300 hours are credit hours, not actual hours. Residents are usually working at the schools 8-10 hours/day. Of course this is much less than 30 hours/day for medical residents. 300 actual hours is only about 2 months of full time work - these residencies take 3 years to complete.

Disturbingly absent from these program's websites is any mention of clinical training. Even in the Master's Level coursework which is the mainstay of these residencies, there is no mention of a clinical practicum, rotations, or anything that resembles what is the thrust of residency training - clinical exposure.

The fact that these 'residencies' resemble nothing more than classroom master's level coursework, and require tuition, or pay such a small stipend that it is understood that you will have to continue working as a DC during your 'residency', illustrates what a complete misnomer it is to refer to them as anything resembling a traditional ACGME/AOA residency. There is no comparison.

 

[taylormade2006]

Taylor ... here is my issue.

You're right. Additional education is good and it's nice that these DCs are able to better assist their patients. However, like I said earlier, one of these graduate programs in, Radiology, for example is not the same thing as an ACGME/AOA residency completed by a MD/DO. What happens when these DCs see a patient who is apprehensive about seeing medical doctors in the first place (like you said), some scans are done, and because the DC has additionally Radiology training, it's read, but something crucial is missed or improperly diagnosed (something small, very technical, only something a BC radiologist would catch, etc)??? You now have a Chiropractor who is telling the patient everything is fine, encouraging this attitude of not seeing a physician, and a patient with a problem that is only going to get worse??? I just don't think it's advantageous to patients.

Jagger, the reason I referenced that article was to demonstrate that the DACBR's (chiropractic radiologists) do have abilities on par with general medical radiologists when reading spinal plain film radiographs (the medical skeletal fellows were rated highest).

Disturbingly absent from these program's websites is any mention of clinical training. Even in the Master's Level coursework which is the mainstay of these residencies, there is no mention of a clinical practicum, rotations, or anything that resembles what is the thrust of residency training - clinical exposure.

The fact that these 'residencies' resemble nothing more than classroom master's level coursework, and require tuition, or pay such a small stipend that it is understood that you will have to continue working as a DC during your 'residency', illustrates what a complete misnomer it is to refer to them as anything resembling a traditional ACGME/AOA residency. There is no comparison.

I agree with you 99%.

I do not have familiarity with the level of clinical exposure gained during the neurology residency, however the radiology residents view cases all day and the sports medicine residents see patients all day long.

Edit: I feel like we are distracting from the main purpose of the thread. I would love to continue discussing things with anybody via PM, but I think we're interfering with the thread at this point.

 

[corey90]

Osteopaths need to learn so much other stuff, like pharmacology. Yes, chiropractors learn that too, but only 1 class. So it is a trade off.

 

[cbrons]

My experience with chiropractors (over a 3 year period when I was a full time athlete) is that they are ineffective and fraudulent. Note the emphasis on my experience.

Buuuut there's lots of people out there that find it effective and can't get enough of it. Many in my own family.

As far as their views on immunizations, and I don't know if they still teach this at Palmer, I obviously disagree with them. I wouldn't see another chiropractor myself. I tend to think it is just another scam, with a rather dubious history as a profession that I feel was clearly based on pseudoscience and dunce profiteering.

As far as "chiropractor radiologists" I'm sure they are nice people but you couldn't get an army to make me go see one or take any advice from one. It seems like everywhere you look there are various professions trying to achieve parity with physicians. The only problem with this is that they don't want do half the work or be held to anywhere near the same standards as far as quality and depth of education is concerned.

I don't claim to be a medical expert in fact I claim to be a medical non-expert. But that's my opinion. It is just an opinion, it is one man's opinion.

You would sort of expect this but MDs (ex. http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiro.html) tend to say it is all a crock.


I wouldn't say it's true. I wouldn't say it's not true.

 

[questiondoc]

As an aside, the number one book (two volume set) used by medical schools for skeletal radiology is "The Essentials of Skeletal Radiology: By Yochum and Rowe.
Yochum is a DC D.A.C.B.R and is regarded as one of the top in radiology. This is a far cry from the phamplet handling ascribed to most of the profession. Just a thought.

 

[jenny07]

Spinal adjustment or bone adjustment is the specialization of a chiropractor, that's why they are good at it unlike any OMM

 

[JaggerPlate]

Spinal adjustment or bone adjustment is the specialization of a chiropractor, that's why they are good at it unlike any OMM

Well stated - especially from a "Chiropractic Physician" 🙄

 

[Daniel565]

Well stated - especially from a "Chiropractic Physician" 🙄

How is that allowed? I would think that as a regulated field, there would be some consequences for someone advertising themselves as a physician when they're clearly not...
Also, how is Chiropractic Physician different from Engineering Physician for an engineer, or a political physician for a politician, or a Managing Physician for a general manager.
I'm sorry because I don't mean to be rude but:

There are two types of physicians: M.D. (Medical Doctor) and D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine). M.D.s also are known as allopathic physicians.
- US Bureau of Labor Statistics

 

[JaggerPlate]

How is that allowed? I would think that as a regulated field, there would be some consequences for someone advertising themselves as a physician when they're clearly not...
Also, how is Chiropractic Physician different from Engineering Physician for an engineer, or a political physician for a politician, or a Managing Physician for a general manager.
I'm sorry because I don't mean to be rude but:

You're preaching to the choir here. We have a really big problem with everybody wanting to be a physician, practice medicine, etc, and it affects patients. Technically, some states allow/classify DCs as 'Chiropractic Physicians,' but they don't practice medicine ... so I agree with you.