OMM works.. at least it does for me

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Aside from the seemingly vast amount of cash to be made off pseudo hippies I don't know why OMM isn't left to the DC's. I'm sure I'll get to sit through the class someday and there's no way I'll buy it.

However, if I can practice on a hot classmate and it leads to something good... then I guess that'll make it worth it.
 
Aside from the seemingly vast amount of cash to be made off pseudo hippies I don't know why OMM isn't left to the DC's. I'm sure I'll get to sit through the class someday and there's no way I'll buy it.

However, if I can practice on a hot classmate and it leads to something good... then I guess that'll make it worth it.

Why would you go into it with this attitude?? It all but guarantees you'll pay 200k for it, and get nothing with regard to OMM.
 
Glorified massage therapy and chiropractics was never my intention with medical school. I don't care what you call it, that's all it'll ever be to me. I want to practice medicine with medicine, surgery, and lifestyle corrections. The whole idea of OMM and the type of people I know who swear by it really makes me not want anything to do with it. I want to practice medicine, don't care what school I get into as long as it gets me there. The only people I've met where I work that love OMM and say it works are the same people who believe in the alignment of the stars and other crap like that. To each his own... and OMM is not for me.

Also... 200k for it? I'd pay that if I did MD as well. I'm not paying 200k for it, I'm paying 200k and unfortunately being forced to do something extra I will never do again. I'd rather have another course of anything else in it's place.
 
DO school is probably not for you, first of all.

Second of all, how can you write it off when you know NOTHING about it? Just because you know a few crazy people that swear by it doesn't negate the fact that it works.

A lot of crazy and/or stupid people swear by different pharmaceuticals -does that mean they can't POSSIBLY work?

Just because you're not interested in it means it can't POSSIBLY work? I may not be interested in Gastroenterology as a specialty, but that doesn't mean it has less merit than any other.
 
DO school is probably not for you


Like I said before... I want to practice medicine not mixed massage/chiropractics. OMM may be good for some, but it will never be my cup of tea. To me it ranks right up there with aromatherapy and acupucnture... if it works for you and makes you happy then by all means purchase away.

Also, DO school will be fine for me. I want to be a physician MD/DO... I could care less about the letters. If I should be scared away by two years of OMM then I should've stopped long ago after needing to take women's studies and other courses that I saw as pure crap. This is just the way it is to get where you want to be. Wade through the crap until you're there and you can leave it behind you. OMM is just one more hoop, no biggie, I just won't like it.
 
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I don't think he even knows anything else about DO schools. Either way, based on this, I can see him as a very unhappy med student and subsequently unhappy physician.

If you're that opposed to holistic ANYTHING, then DO school is really not for you.

It kind of pains me to think of someone legitimately interested in DO could losing out on a spot in a class because of an applicant like you. Sorry, but that's just how I feel.
 
In the end the license is all I need.

What I don't like about DO schools is the sub-par training facilities, the lack of research or desire to do research and further medical technology, the idea that they are somehow different from MD's, and any of the other crap they spew. From an actual educational standpoint they teach the same stuff, have rotations that are a toss up, and then you get to apply to both ACGME and AOA residencies. Where I work most of the DO students have no desire to apply AOA because they hate it so much and just want to get on with life without the BS and do their IM residnecy and pursue a fellowship. The residents here have never given me a solid opinion on their feelings toward their education... but they also have chosen an AOA residency and are going to be in the AOA for a while like it or not. The fact that none of them are glowing about it makes me think it's not gum drops and rainbows. None of them do more OMM then required through the residency program and none of them want to do it in thier career that I have met (guess there are 3 that I have still not met... maybe one of them want to use it)

Of the physicians teaching the residency program none of them were using OMM until they needed to in order to be directors of the program and now give some continued education stuff the the residents. We have a large precentage of DO's practicing here... nearly 15% and all I have run into are indistinguishable from the MD's in their respective fields. If OMM was so great I think I'd see it ... even just once. Here it's medicine as usual, pills, tests, surgery ...

DO schools are fine. I just wish they would tighten up their education for rotations, open more quality residency sites at level 1 trauma centers, and stop pretending to be different. DO or MD the orthopod is going to fix you hip the same, DO or MD the cardiologist is going to place you stent the same. There is no difference unless you decide to practice OMM. I would much rather spend more time studying peds or something useful than two years of an insignificant subspecialty that 99% of us will leave beind and never use again asap.
 
In the end the license is all I need.

What I don't like about DO schools is the sub-par training facilities, the lack of research or desire to do research and further medical technology, the idea that they are somehow different from MD's, and any of the other crap they spew. From an actual educational standpoint they teach the same stuff, have rotations that are a toss up, and then you get to apply to both ACGME and AOA residencies. Where I work most of the DO students have no desire to apply AOA because they hate it so much and just want to get on with life without the BS and do their IM residnecy and pursue a fellowship. The residents here have never given me a solid opinion on their feelings toward their education... but they also have chosen an AOA residency and are going to be in the AOA for a while like it or not. The fact that none of them are glowing about it makes me think it's not gum drops and rainbows. None of them do more OMM then required through the residency program and none of them want to do it in thier career that I have met (guess there are 3 that I have still not met... maybe one of them want to use it)

Of the physicians teaching the residency program none of them were using OMM until they needed to in order to be directors of the program and now give some continued education stuff the the residents. We have a large precentage of DO's practicing here... nearly 15% and all I have run into are indistinguishable from the MD's in their respective fields. If OMM was so great I think I'd see it ... even just once. Here it's medicine as usual, pills, tests, surgery ...

DO schools are fine. I just wish they would tighten up their education for rotations, open more quality residency sites at level 1 trauma centers, and stop pretending to be different. DO or MD the orthopod is going to fix you hip the same, DO or MD the cardiologist is going to place you stent the same. There is no difference unless you decide to practice OMM. I would much rather spend more time studying peds or something useful than two years of an insignificant subspecialty that 99% of us will leave beind and never use again asap.

This is bull****. DO schools all conduct research - i WORK at a DO school and I'm sitting here watching the PhDs conduct said research on their animals from my desk as we speak. You REALLY need to do your damn homework, because you are grossly mistaken. State schools, especially, receive a LOT of funding for research - you're just too lazy to look into it, apparently.

And as for rotations, it depends on what you're interested in doing and it varies from school to school. NYCOM has rotation sites at some of the best hospitals in the New York metropolitan area, and the same goes for a lot of other schools like PCOM and UMDNJ.

OMM isn't really useful in a hospital environment, so obviously Do residents, especially those doing ACGME residencies aren't going to do it, seeing as they're being taught by MDs.

You clearly haven't done the research you need to, because almost everything about this post is WRONG, aside from the fact that DOs are equally as skilled and knowledgable as MDs.
 
Mechanic:

1. The whole point everyone is trying to make is, frankly, you have no idea what OMM is all about, how it's useful, where it's appropriate, etc. None of us do. The reason why is because at the pre-medical level, all we can do is make distorted assumptions, based off second hand experiences. As someone who seems so jaded to anything else besides the most logical and straight-forward solution ... this seems flawed.

If you get into medical school, try it, and hate it ... that's absolutely fine. However, completely it dismissing and berating OMM before you've even explained how much you want to be a DO in your personal statement is asinine.

2. About the AOA hating ... ask people how much they like the AMA better. Frankly, a lot of stuff that's blamed on the AOA or that people bash on the AOA for is actually out of their hands and actually COCAs realm, and I get that they've done some dumb things, but absolutely no better than the AMA in my opinion.

3. Your experience with jaded, tired, burned-out residents at the program you volunteer at or whatever has nothing to do with AOA vs ACGME, or DO vs MD or whatever else, it has to do with the nature of being a resident. If you were working 80 hour weeks for 45k a year as a quality control manager at a modeling agency ... you'd still start to hate and bash on models after a year. Get my point??

4. You need to just quit making assumptions and statements that are above your pay grade. You really, really sound like one of those super annoying, pre-med know-it-all's people love making fun of.

/rant
 
i really hope mechanic gets into an MD school. your classmates who have a genuine interest in OMM don't want to hear you whining all day, every day.
 
i really hope mechanic gets into an MD school. your classmates who have a genuine interest in OMM don't want to hear you whining all day, every day.

Well I presume there is no reason why you can't make OMM hurt. A lot. Being around that sort of incessant whining and negativity tends to encourage people to make "mistakes." Oh gee, I'm sorry, I didn't really mean to grind the tip of my knuckle deep into your lumbar plexus.

That do no harm business, I mean that's just for patients right, not classmates?
 
Well I presume there is no reason why you can't make OMM hurt. A lot. Being around that sort of incessant whining and negativity tends to encourage people to make "mistakes." Oh gee, I'm sorry, I didn't really mean to grind the tip of my knuckle deep into your lumbar plexus.

That do no harm business, I mean that's just for patients right, not classmates?

sneaky sneaky!:meanie:
 
Also, pick a school that doesn't focus on OMM a lot if you don't like it. We have less than 200 hours over 2 years.

I picked one with an OMM "cathedral" ... so I'm putting a lot of faith in liking OMM classes.
 
Well I presume there is no reason why you can't make OMM hurt. A lot. Being around that sort of incessant whining and negativity tends to encourage people to make "mistakes." Oh gee, I'm sorry, I didn't really mean to grind the tip of my knuckle deep into your lumbar plexus.

That do no harm business, I mean that's just for patients right, not classmates?

:laugh:
 
Well I presume there is no reason why you can't make OMM hurt. A lot. Being around that sort of incessant whining and negativity tends to encourage people to make "mistakes." Oh gee, I'm sorry, I didn't really mean to grind the tip of my knuckle deep into your lumbar plexus.

That do no harm business, I mean that's just for patients right, not classmates?
You won't be getting to the lumbar plexus except in anatomy and on your surgical rotation...
 
You got any pictures of it, Jag? I'd like to see this OMM "cathedral."

Here's how I imagine it:
WWE-RAW-Evan-Bourne-John-Morrison_1202378.jpg


:: insert comment about failing the HVLA portion of the course ::
 
You got any pictures of it, Jag? I'd like to see this OMM "cathedral."

I don't actually ... but anyone who's visited KCOM and seen the new lab knows it's seriously an appropriate title. Their OMM lab is enormous. Maybe someone will come along with a pic.
 
However, if I can practice on a hot classmate and it leads to something good... then I guess that'll make it worth it.

'However, if I can practice on a hot patient and it leads to something good... then I guess that'll make it worth it.'

Try to be professional when you get to school. Learning foolish attitudes can cause mistakes down the road.
 
'However, if I can practice on a hot patient and it leads to something good... then I guess that'll make it worth it.'

Try to be professional when you get to school. Learning foolish attitudes can cause mistakes down the road.

Of all the comments to bust his balls for that wasn't the one. Working in a hot girl is preferable to a fat stinky dude, that's called logic. If it's foolish to prefer a hot girl than I guess I'm a big fool too.

PS- Working a hot girl doesn't change a guys capability of learning.
 
I don't think he even knows anything else about DO schools. Either way, based on this, I can see him as a very unhappy med student and subsequently unhappy physician.

If you're that opposed to holistic ANYTHING, then DO school is really not for you.

It kind of pains me to think of someone legitimately interested in DO could losing out on a spot in a class because of an applicant like you. Sorry, but that's just how I feel.


I am certainly not going to say that I completely agree with mechanic, but the whole "holistic" and radically different approach is pretty bogus. We all do the majority of 3rd and 4th year sites with MD attendings and students and there is no real difference in the way you approach a patients workup (except maybe considering OMM Tx).
To me OMM seems to work for some things (and I came in skeptical), some (like cranial) are crazy but the mainstream muscle treatments seem to work on us young and healthy med students, then again so do some massage therapies.
 
I picked one with an OMM "cathedral" ... so I'm putting a lot of faith in liking OMM classes.

When he first said 200 hours I thought, "Wow how can they have so little?" but then I estimated how many we have at KCOM and it's pretty much the same. This has me thinking, though, who has more than this?
 
When he first said 200 hours I thought, "Wow how can they have so little?" but then I estimated how many we have at KCOM and it's pretty much the same. This has me thinking, though, who has more than this?

Seems weird to me for any school to have more OMM than KCOM. I thought it was really emphasized there. Maybe the number of hours are pretty standard, but the way it's integrated into the curriculum in other courses isn't?? Meaning all schools have around 200 hrs of actual OMM, but other schools integrate it into lectures, labs, etc, for different subjects???

Dunno, I can't give much input until August ... 😀
 
I am certainly not going to say that I completely agree with mechanic, but the whole "holistic" and radically different approach is pretty bogus. We all do the majority of 3rd and 4th year sites with MD attendings and students and there is no real difference in the way you approach a patients workup (except maybe considering OMM Tx).
To me OMM seems to work for some things (and I came in skeptical), some (like cranial) are crazy but the mainstream muscle treatments seem to work on us young and healthy med students, then again so do some massage therapies.

No, but OMM aside, it's pretty common knowledge that DO schools try to teach a more holistic approach to modern medicine. Mechanic doesn't seem to grasp any of that.
 
Seems weird to me for any school to have more OMM than KCOM. I thought it was really emphasized there. Maybe the number of hours are pretty standard, but the way it's integrated into the curriculum in other courses isn't?? Meaning all schools have around 200 hrs of actual OMM, but other schools integrate it into lectures, labs, etc, for different subjects???

Dunno, I can't give much input until August ... 😀

Lab is 2x/wk for 2 hours each. There really isn't any integration into the other courses, as they're usually taught by PhDs. I can't speak for the second year clinical courses, but I'm quite certain there's virtually nothing in them, especially considering a lot of them are MDs.

The only integration is part of the microbiology courses where during case presentations you state what kind of sympathetic findings you would have with a particular case. These are worth, in total, about 3-6 points out of ~300 in the course and they do it as board prep.
 
We do actually have OMM integrated into our classes at PCOM. During anatomy, one of the professors often related to OMM due to his research in the field. In our biochemistry course we had an OMM lecture on relevance to the immune system and now in cardiovascular medicine we've had one or two OMM lectures.
 
Mechanic until you start school in the fall, please be quiet.

Sure, you're the mod.

You really, really sound like one of those super annoying, pre-med know-it-all's people love making fun of.

Go ahead... you make fun of everyone else on here... why not me too?


I can't stand the OMM class at all, it drives me crazy. Not talking about the treatments/lab itself, but the god damn lectures and AT still hero worship and stupid phrases like "Toss the banner of osteopathy to the breeze" or "The roots of osteopathy are embedded deeply in the ground" or talking about the great california tragedy of 1961 like it was the holocaust. No I don't care that fred mitchell Sr first came up with Muscle energy (but sure on a written exam when we actually spend time studying how to diagnose the sacrum put that question with two of the choices being mitchell sr and mitchell jr). Is memorizing three different definitions of whiplash by three different people (And knowing who came up with which one) really important?


Again, I have no issue with questions on fryettes, sacrum diagnosis, order of spencer etc... But its all the other irrevelant crap that gets thrown into the class that drives me crazy. We've had lectures as part of the class on "Integrative therapies" with information on the Tenscam (http://www.tenscam.com/ - should provide you with a good laugh) or questions involving knowing "Which of the following is not an element of aryuveda".

Its nice when they tell us that "OMM is just a tool in the DO arsenal", yet the faculty seems so enamored with themselves that they act like OMM is the be all and end all, and they lecture on mystical voodoo garbage that if any outsider would see, they would think all the rumors and prejudices against DOs would be correct.

I'd rant some more but my blood pressure is probably high enough right now.

When residents and students pretty much over and over give me the above attitude/response and only use OMM when absolutely necessary to get "checked off" it's hard to take you "part way through first year hopefuls" seriously. However, I guess you've got a few months of school on me :bow:

I'm sure there is some good stuff in OMM, but I seriously doubt there is two years worth of it for all of us who never want to use it in practice. No doubt, when I start attending school my mouth will be sealed and I'll look totally serious because I want a grade and no enemies. SDN is really the only place one can voice an opinion without getting railed professionally.

I'll leave now and you can all have your one sided debate. Those really are the most fun.
 
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A lot of people doubt OMM, and I just wanted to post my experience with an osteopath I'm seeing.

My family physician (MD), told me my posture is horrible, and that I needed to see a specialist about it. After discussing chiropractors and orthopedists, we decided I should give a DO a try.. One that actually does OMM obviously.

I called my state DO medical society, and they referred me a DO that only does OMM. He has an FM/EM background, but no longer practices in those fields.

Within 5 minutes of examining me, he found that my T3 vertebrae was out of alignment. He did some sort of adjustment, it popped, and immediately I could tell a difference.

When he told you that your T3 was "out of alignment", what did you take that to mean?
 
I went to the gym tonight, picked up a weight too fast, and goofed up my neck. It's all sore, tense, and spasm-ie now ... I wish I lived in an environment with OMM fellows!! Oh well, this may give me the excuse to finally seek some cash OMM service in my area.
 
I went to the gym tonight, picked up a weight too fast, and goofed up my neck. It's all sore, tense, and spasm-ie now ... I wish I lived in an environment with OMM fellows!! Oh well, this may give me the excuse to finally seek some cash OMM service in my area.

..i can sense that you suffered from some sort of trauma in the past 24 hours 🙄
 
I went to the gym tonight, picked up a weight too fast, and goofed up my neck. It's all sore, tense, and spasm-ie now ... I wish I lived in an environment with OMM fellows!! Oh well, this may give me the excuse to finally seek some cash OMM service in my area.
You need muscle energy. Indirect.
 
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First DO I shadowed had crystals and gave me a book to read about how to cure ALS using cranial and positive thinking.

No joke.😱 I lasted about an hour and a half before I couldn't take it anymore.

Nearly decided against the whole profession right there.

Thankfully for me I found a wonderful DO near my house who had sat on FOMA and was a family care doc who happened to practice OMT.

THAT was a great shadowing experience 🙂

I really wish people like that would stop practicing that crap, or at least stop calling it medicine.

Though I will say, you couldn't come up with a better name for a technique then "muscle energy" really? counterstrain, FPR, articulatory, stills, LAS....fine...great, but...muscle energy? 😎
 
A lot of people doubt OMM, and I just wanted to post my experience with an osteopath I'm seeing.

My family physician (MD), told me my posture is horrible, and that I needed to see a specialist about it. After discussing chiropractors and orthopedists, we decided I should give a DO a try.. One that actually does OMM obviously.

I called my state DO medical society, and they referred me a DO that only does OMM. He has an FM/EM background, but no longer practices in those fields.

Within 5 minutes of examining me, he found that my T3 vertebrae was out of alignment. He did some sort of adjustment, it popped, and immediately I could tell a difference.

He's also certified in cranial OMM. Frankly, before this experience, I thought cranial was BS. He had my lie down, with his hand under my back at my T3, and started rubbing my head. After awhile he says, "So... When you were 15, something traumatic happened to you." This is true, I was in a car accident. I tell him this and he says, "No, this was emotional.." Well, without going into details, yes, something emotionally traumatic DID happen to me when I was 15..

This physician didn't know me at all and doesn't know anyone who knows me. I asked him how in the world he could possible know something happened to me 17 years ago, and he said "practice."

Anyway, I left that visit standing up straight. Two weeks later, I am still standing up straight. Yes, the first two days after treatment were a bit painful... but it was worth it.

I admit there could be a psychological component to this on my part, but whatever.. OMM is working for me.

Hello all premed SDNers. I still remember what that was like, and now I'm an OMM specialist looking at this topic from a much different perspective. If any of you have honest questions about what we do, I will try to check back here from time to time and provide some insight. There is very little understanding out there of what we do and what we can do in our specialty, so I hope to help with that. There certainly are some questionable people out there that carry physician licenses, so please take everything claimed with a grain of salt. Many of the stories on here are second or third hand, so skepticism is the correct response- the ideal however is open minded skepticism that recognizes the possibility of truth when it sees it, no matter how seeming unlikely based on your past experience. Your experience will not be the same as those who have studied this material in depth with masters around the U.S. for a decade or more, so some suspension of disbelief may have a big payoff down the road.

To the OP, I am glad you are feeling better- which is a testimony to the doc that treated you... however, even if he was able to palpate such detail- it would have served you and this SDN audience better if he had simply kept his mouth shut as he worked. 🙄 With experienced hands it is quite easy to know the difference between an injury that is 5+ years old vs an injury that is 5 days old or an injury that someone is faking to get narcotics. That level of discrimination is more than enough to help your patients and do your job.

I can say a lot about what I do every day- but without detailed descriptions and rationales for my approach it would be easy to discount my testimonials out of hand as they would seem too good to be true. When I myself was in your position I wouldn't have believed much of what I do now on a routine basis, so I am not in the least offended by people who use proper discernment and question what I do- though rudeness is not necessary.

At the core of Osteopathy is the notion of understanding and treating the cause of disease... which surprisingly is not the way mainstream medicine works for the most part. If it did, there would be no need for us and healthcare in general would be a lot less expensive. Most of mainstream medicine targets symptoms, which means the best it can offer in many cases is the management of disease. To cure you need to find causes- and to do this you need to know a lot about what you're treating- not just the "what", but especially the "why". That is where many Doctors, including some OMM specialists, sometimes come up short.

I get many of my referrals from very mainstream sources- such as local MD's and specialists (orthopedic surgeons, neurologists, pediatricians, OB's ENT's, etc.) as well as from patient referrals. I treat a wide variety of conditions... especially chronic pain, radiculopathy (burning pain or numbness), postural problems, motor vehicle accidents, neurodevelopmental delays, etc. I do not use manipulation for everything- there are certainly times surgery is the best way to address the cause of a health condition, or nutrition, specialized exercises, or sometimes a medication (though I tend to write few scripts). There are also times when symptom management is the first priority (i.e. chest pain where heart attack is likely) and in these cases mainstream medicine is absolutely critical to long term patient health.


I would encourage anyone who thinks they want to learn more about osteopathy to read A.T. Still's Philosophy of Osteopathy which can be downloaded for free at:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/236291/The-Philosophy-of-Osteopathy-by-AT-Still

Please realize it is a product of the time he lived in and mainstream medicine of his day couldn't even handle symptoms well, and I don't think he would have been as violently against mainstream medicine if it had saved his children's lives as it surely would have today. This said- his approach still has incredible value even with today's technology- both from the perspective of reducing healthcare costs and alleviating human suffering, as I prove to myself each and every day in my clinic. Read it, come to your own conclusions, and ask your questions here and I'll try to help answer them.

Best of luck

Dr Waddington
 
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