on avg how many candidates per slot get rooted out during interviews

[dggopal]

So the rule of thumb is that programs usually host 10-15 interviewees per residency slot. On multiple interviews that I attended, I could immediately pin point people making complete fools of themselves which makes me wonder, how many candidates on avg. get rooted out during the interview process. I know it would vary a great deal based on the academic level of the institution as more prestigious institutions draw better candidates but lets say we are talking about an IMG friendly university affiliated community hospital program.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[jj55342]

This is collected by NRMP and is in the program version of that huge data packet. Don't remember the details now and am on the move. But for IM I believe it's 6.5 or some candidates they have to go down for every match. Surgery is around 4 I think? Hope that helps and good luck!

Edit: this doesn't fully answer your question but may be the info you're after.

 

[mcl]

We don't think of it as candidates per slot. We identify people who we don't think would do well in our program for whatever reason. This year we didn't rank three people. Some years we rank everyone. The highest number we haven't ranked is six.

 

[Goro]

The brilliant but never makes eye contact types?

Ditto.

You have to be pretty darn bad to get not ranked at all. I think we DNR'ed 2 candidates this year and 1 last year. Usually these people exhibit serious interpersonal or character deficits.

 

[jj55342]

That only tells you on average how far a program goes down their rank list.

That doesn't tell you how many applicants a program interviews or ranks per slot. That number would be much higher.

We interview about 10:1, and as I said we rank nearly everyone.

That's a fairly typical number for the competitive general surgery programs - most of them interview in the neighborhood of 75-100 people for 6-10 spots.

The less competitive the program - the higher the ratio (since they will potentially be going lower on their rank list).

If you try and get too cute with your lists and don't rank enough people (i.e. if we ranked only at a 4:1 ratio) - you end up falling through the match and having unfilled spots. This happens every now again with competitive programs. When that happens you quickly realize that the options in the SOAP make you envious of all those people you chose not to rank in the main match.

Ya I get that. Thanks for the perspective. I guess that info is really most useful on the program side, though. It tells you on average how many you need to interview to get what you want. Whereas the data I was posting is more on the applicant side. It tells us how many we need to beat out to get what we want, or how many on average won't even end up picking that program.

 

[gutonc]

Ya I get that. Thanks for the perspective. I guess that info is really most useful on the program side, though. It tells you on average how many you need to interview to get what you want. Whereas the data I was posting is more on the applicant side. It tells us how many we need to beat out to get what we want, or how many on average won't even end up picking that program.

This statement suggests that you don't actually have any idea how the Match works.

 

[jj55342]

This statement suggests that you don't actually have any idea how the Match works.

Maybe I didn't phrase it in a way that perfectly conveys that, but the meat of the message rings true. It tells you how far programs in a given specialty tend to go, which is the bit of info you would need, when compared with how you think you yourself would fit with their applicant pool, to know where you may stand.

 

[Chicago2012]

Yeah, the match algorithm is slightly bent in favor of the applicant. They go through applicants rank lists then see if their number 1 still has an open slot which they tentatively get if they are ranked by the program. If another applicant who also ranked the program is higher ranked by the program comes along they get that slot, provided the program has no additional slots. At that point, when your number 1 program is filled by people they ranked above you, the algorithm moves on to your number 2 program and the whole process repeats until you reach you last ranked program. Its a small advantage to the applicants, but an advantage nonetheless.

 

[gutonc]

Maybe I didn't phrase it in a way that perfectly conveys that, but the meat of the message rings true. It tells you how far programs in a given specialty tend to go, which is the bit of info you would need, when compared with how you think you yourself would fit with their applicant pool, to know where you may stand.

I assure you that you (the generic "you applicant", not you specifically) have absolutely no idea where you fit in with a particular applicant pool and "where you may stand". There is absolutely no information you can garner from how many applicants a program interviews and/or ranks that will in any way help you in this process.

We go over this year after year and each year, somebody like you (not the generic you here, specifically you jj55342) thinks they've figured out a workaround or a way to game the system. Apply (where you want), interview (where you can), rank (how yoou like) is the only "strategy" for the Match.

 

[jj55342]

That only tells you on average how far a program goes down their rank list.

That doesn't tell you how many applicants a program interviews or ranks per slot. That number would be much higher.

We interview about 10:1, and as I said we rank nearly everyone.

That's a fairly typical number for the competitive general surgery programs - most of them interview in the neighborhood of 75-100 people for 6-10 spots.

The less competitive the program - the higher the ratio (since they will potentially be going lower on their rank list).

If you try and get too cute with your lists and don't rank enough people (i.e. if we ranked only at a 4:1 ratio) - you end up falling through the match and having unfilled spots. This happens every now again with competitive programs. When that happens you quickly realize that the options in the SOAP make you envious of all those people you chose not to rank in the main match.

To clarify even further, and to better answer the OP, your figure of 10:1 is more in line with total interviews, and doesn't differentiate between those that ultimately chose not to rank you in a match and those you chose not to rank in a match. The number I listed trims out program decision, and shows on average how many chose to rank another program higher, proportion wise, that otherwise would have matched. The OP was wondering about a stat that neither of us have I suppose.

 

[jj55342]

I assure you that you (the generic "you applicant", not you specifically) have absolutely no idea where you fit in with a particular applicant pool and "where you may stand". There is absolutely no information you can garner from how many applicants a program interviews and/or ranks that will in any way help you in this process.

We go over this year after year and each year, somebody like you (not the generic you here, specifically you jj55342) thinks they've figured out a workaround or a way to game the system. Apply (where you want), interview (where you can), rank (how yoou like) is the only "strategy" for the Match.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise. The OP asked a question, I answered with what info I knew.

 

[jj55342]

Ok, extrapolate what you want based on a few random comments. You're free to do that. OP asked for info, I gave what I knew. Never said I changed my own ranking strategy based on that, or that others should. The premise of "getting rooted out" isn't even one that is answerable in this type of system anyway unless you're totally not ranked at all.

 

[dggopal]

Yeah you guys pretty much answered my question... I was under the assumption that perhaps close to half the interviewees get rooted out for whatever reason and end up getting DNR'ed. Had no idea the number was so low. I know Southernsurgeon mentioned gen surgery, but do you think all specialties operate like this and end up ranking pretty much all of their candidates?

 

[Raryn]

Yeah you guys pretty much answered my question... I was under the assumption that perhaps close to half the interviewees get rooted out for whatever reason and end up getting DNR'ed. Had no idea the number was so low. I know Southernsurgeon mentioned gen surgery, but do you think all specialties operate like this and end up ranking pretty much all of their candidates?

All that I'm aware of. Unless you're a total dickwad, better to rank you at the end than risk going unmatched.

 

[Snoopy2006]

Yeah you guys pretty much answered my question... I was under the assumption that perhaps close to half the interviewees get rooted out for whatever reason and end up getting DNR'ed. Had no idea the number was so low. I know Southernsurgeon mentioned gen surgery, but do you think all specialties operate like this and end up ranking pretty much all of their candidates?

Yes. It's not specialty-specific. No program wants to have to go through the SOAP. You have to set off major red flags during an interview to not be ranked. Usually this is extreme social awkwardness (to the point the residents may speak up and tell the PD they're afraid you'll murder them in their sleep), extreme rudeness (on my interview trail, a co-interviewee spent an entire 15 minute break loudly talking about his "bulls**t" last interview, as if he thought bashing a rival program would help him here), or extreme stupidity (at a different interview, an applicant told the program director during a friendly introduction section that this program was a backup for him).

These people somehow look decent enough on paper to make it through to the interview stage, but are damaged on the inside. They make up a tiny percentage of applicants, and they always make for entertaining interview trail stories.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm not sure all programs outright fear ending up in SOAP. There certainly is a balance that is made when a program gets toward the end of the rank list as to whether the guy they interviewed is really better than the guy who doesn't get eg derm or ortho and might drop to their specialty. For example let's say a program interviews 100 people for 10 slots. They may consider 80 worthy of ranking, knowing that in most years they wont get more than halfway down that list. The next 10 are milktoast -- nobody hated them, but you'd consider them barely better than risking SOAP. Then the next five are trickier -- those are the one you are pretty confident you could in fact do better than in SOAP. That's where they maybe get the nod to stay on the list just out of convenience. Finally there's the last five, who rubbed people the wrong way or came off a bit unprofessional or eccentric, who you opt not to match at all. Given this, I'm not sure how you "game" the system. Pretty much all but 1 of the guys you will see on a given interview day will be somewhere on the rank list. Most won't be ranked to match. So just rank places in the order you like them and see how it plays out.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Eh. My program fills its prelim spots in the SOAP, and the candidates we get are all US MDs who didn't match into a surgical subspecialty (or matched to an advanced spot in anesthesiology but not a prelim, in a few cases).

They usually are fine, but about half of them you quickly realize why they didn't match - it's the exact same reasons we DNR'ed people in the categorical match. They may have 260s but they have interpersonal issues or work ethic problems.

So even the "cream of the crop" in the SOAP is not exactly the most desirable group.

(Not to mention that if a categorical program goes unfilled, it is taken as a huge red flag by applicants that would have ramifications for recruitment in future years)

That last point is probably the most important reason why programs don't want to SOAP. It's publicly available knowledge who didnt fill. I can say from my experience and talking to other students, categorical programs in any specialty that don't fill are initially looked at as "wtf happened, what's wrong with the program". It definitely affects where people who to interview and how they consider ranking programs.

 

[MiaMia14]

That last point is probably the most important reason why programs don't want to SOAP. It's publicly available knowledge who didnt fill. I can say from my experience and talking to other students, categorical programs in any specialty that don't fill are initially looked at as "wtf happened, what's wrong with the program". It definitely affects where people who to interview and how they consider ranking programs.

Where is that information located?? The match statistics download thing I thought only had the info from after the soap. Is that wrong?

 

[WingedOx]

Eh. My program fills its prelim spots in the SOAP, and the candidates we get are all US MDs who didn't match into a surgical subspecialty (or matched to an advanced spot in anesthesiology but not a prelim, in a few cases).

They usually are fine, but about half of them you quickly realize why they didn't match - it's the exact same reasons we DNR'ed people in the categorical match. They may have 260s but they have interpersonal issues or work ethic problems.

So even the "cream of the crop" in the SOAP is not exactly the most desirable group.

(Not to mention that if a categorical program goes unfilled, it is taken as a huge red flag by applicants that would have ramifications for recruitment in future years)

Ugh yeah. a number of years back our new department chair decided he was going to have the final say on our rank list and decided to only rank a ratio of 4:1. Needless to say we had to pick some candidates out of the scramble. To be honest, only one ever created problems for us, and not in any serious sense. He's a good guy but really awkward. We lucked out by being the biggest name program with scramble spots that year. (by comparison there's always one or two candidates that we place in the top 5 or 10 of our list who turn out to be total sociopaths. )

It took a few years for applicants to stop asking us why we didn't match that year, and for the SDN subspecialty boards to switch their comments from "[OxHospitalU] has had problems matching, I wonder what's wrong over there?" to "Even [OxHospitalU] didn't fill a while back, so it happens to a lot of good program for various reasons."

 

[Promethean]

So... it sounds like the way that you game the match is:

1) Have a good enough CV/scores/recommendations to get interviews,
2) Show up to said interviews looking professional,
3) Be courteous to everyone you encounter, not just the people you assume have some say in your future,
4) Possess basic interpersonal skills and sufficient social graces to avoid making anyone concerned about your sanity,
5) Appear interested in the program, such as by asking relevant questions and paying attention,
and
6) Rank the programs you liked best more highly than those that you liked least.

Does that seem like a reasonable strategy?

 

[Law2Doc]

So... it sounds like the way that you game the match is:

1) Have a good enough CV/scores/recommendations to get interviews,
2) Show up to said interviews looking professional,
3) Be courteous to everyone you encounter, not just the people you assume have some say in your future,
4) Possess basic interpersonal skills and sufficient social graces to avoid making anyone concerned about your sanity,
5) Appear interested in the program, such as by asking relevant questions and paying attention,
and
6) Rank the programs you liked best more highly than those that you liked least.

Does that seem like a reasonable strategy?

You cracked the code.

 

[Chicago2012]

You cracked the code.

WE MUST TELL THE PEOPLE!!!!!!

 

[ari202]

is being too quiet considered awkward? I felt I was a bit quiet during my interview days with some of the residents as I did not have anything to contribute to a conversation about sports amongst them and the other applicants. I hope I didn't come off as the serial killer type

 

[dyeguy21]

is being too quiet considered awkward? I felt I was a bit quiet during my interview days with some of the residents as I did not have anything to contribute to a conversation about sports amongst them and the other applicants. I hope I didn't come off as the serial killer type

As long as you at least feigned interest in what they were talking about, you'll be fine. Serial killers don't talk to anyone and just stare at their food or into the distance the whole night. Eye contact is super important to convince people you are present in the conversation. My best interviews, I barely spoke while the interviewer went on and on about the school and their life.

 

[WingedOx]

is being too quiet considered awkward? I felt I was a bit quiet during my interview days with some of the residents as I did not have anything to contribute to a conversation about sports amongst them and the other applicants. I hope I didn't come off as the serial killer type

Better than saying something stupid.

We had a guy this year make a comment at an interview dinner about how [politician] has been good for our [state/city]. Said politician jammed through a really significant funding cut for our hospital/university.

/that said there aren't enough sports fans in my program... I usually get blank stares when I talk football/soccer/hockey.

 

[ari202]

yikes, I didn't even feign interest bc I thought I'd look like an idiot. I was already pregnant and showing, so I didn't want people to think of me as the elephant in the room lol

I am not so great with eye contact either but I hope it works out! *fingers crossed*

 

[Chicago2012]

Better than saying something stupid.

We had a guy this year make a comment at an interview dinner about how [politician] has been good for our [state/city]. Said politician jammed through a really significant funding cut for our hospital/university.

/that said there aren't enough sports fans in my program... I usually get blank stares when I talk football/soccer/hockey.

I LOVE SPORTS! Especially when the sports guy scores the points, and when the other sports guy from my sports team keeps the sports guys from the other team from scoring points! (just kidding, I really do love sports)

 

[ari202]

Regarding the eye contact thing, I made eye contact during my interview, but I was focusing on my food whenever they were talking about sports during the luncheon. that count as being serial killer like? gosh i hope not !

 

[dyeguy21]

Regarding the eye contact thing, I made eye contact during my interview, but I was focusing on my food whenever they were talking about sports during the luncheon. that count as being serial killer like? gosh i hope not !

Oh my god.

Ok. Go watch Silence of the Lambs or The Shining. Did you act like Anthony Hopkins in a cage? A blank stare that looked through the person in front of you as if you didn't even want to acknowledge their presence. Did you act like Jack Nicholson on the bed when he asks Danny to join him? A similar stare, like you were questioning existence on the earth and what you need to do with all the people around you? Did you stare at your plate and bounce your fork over and over again as if you were bored with the whole process? Did you laugh inappropriately when they were talking about a mortality case?

or

Did you try to talk to people? Did you engage with smiles and look in peoples' direction when they talked? Did you go to dinner and eat food like a human? Did you talk to literally anyone? Were you a little awkward because it's a stressful situation and they expect that? Did you wear something professional?

Feigning interest doesn't mean that you opened your mouth to say words about something you know nothing about and don't care about. It means engaging with another human being on a level that they would at least think you are listening on some level or at least interacting with them so they don't feel like they are talking to a wall. This can mean you smiled and nodded your head. This can even mean you held any of the neutral to positive expressions while looking in their general direction and had at least something about your face that made them know that you were aware of their existence.

I promise if you took how you normally act in the real world when you are around people you don't know and sprinkled in some nerves and respect and were generally pleasant, you'll be fine.