On being poor...

[NDESTRUKT]

A 5-7 year residency is quite a while to be poor. Given that we do what we like, being poor still bites. How do you guys handle this? What motivates you? I'll be married come graduation and know that I'd be away often but the fact that residency is so long and being poor is so long...well you know the drill.

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[dynx]

A 5-7 year residency is quite a while to be poor. Given that we do what we like, being poor still bites. How do you guys handle this? What motivates you? I'll be married come graduation and know that I'd be away often but the fact that residency is so long and being poor is so long...well you know the drill.

You like what you do, you eat for free (often), and you don't have time to spend much money anyway. As long as you can live without an extravagant abode or distance travel I think the pay as a residents is adequate (grossly and humiliatingly unjust...but adequate). Having a SO that makes a good amout of money also cushions the blow.

 

[Pilot Doc]

If you go to a seven year program, pick on that has good moonlighting in the lab. Then you don't have to be poor. (Although I agree that the pay is adequate, it is frustrating in comparison to all your lawyer/ibanker buddies from college.)

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hmmm...well considering that residents still make more than the median US salary, I would hardly call it being "poor". You will make more than many large families you treat. In fact, the statement that residents are "poor" would be seen as insulting to those who really are poor.

You will make enough money to live in a decent apartment, buy yourself food and clothing. Medicine is all about delayed gratification - we're good at it; you will be too.

 

[whoopsie_1]

You will make more than many large families you treat. In fact, the statement that residents are "poor" would be seen as insulting to those who really are poor.

Ugh, stop with the bleeding heart already. Maybe those large families wouldn't be poor if they hadn't just shot out kids that they could ill-afford. A lot of people who are poor made lots of poor choices in life that got them to where they are. In contrast, a resident is someone who worked hard, usually were at or near the top of their class for much of their life, amassed a large debt to do what they wanted ...and in return, get paid very little, work mind-numbing hours in really crappy conditions, and are often mistreated by the system or by their colleagues. Not to mention that we often have to learn a second language in order to communicate with these fine, upstanding citizens that we're taking care of on the fly.

 

[The_Sensei]

Ugh, stop with the bleeding heart already. Maybe those large families wouldn't be poor if they hadn't just shot out kids that they could ill-afford. A lot of people who are poor made lots of poor choices in life that got them to where they are. In contrast, a resident is someone who worked hard, usually were at or near the top of their class for much of their life, amassed a large debt to do what they wanted ...and in return, get paid very little, work mind-numbing hours in really crappy conditions, and are often mistreated by the system or by their colleagues. Not to mention that we often have to learn a second language in order to communicate with these fine, upstanding citizens that we're taking care of on the fly.

Most honest post I've seen in a long time.

 

[Amgen1]

A 5-7 year residency is quite a while to be poor. Given that we do what we like, being poor still bites. How do you guys handle this? What motivates you? I'll be married come graduation and know that I'd be away often but the fact that residency is so long and being poor is so long...well you know the drill.

no question it does suck. your situation is only maginified by seeing

a) your friends who are lawyers/bankers make 5x the money for 1/2 the work

b) seeing people who were your med students become attending EM/peds/IM docs (and the associated salary)

if you don't have a large family/kids to take care of try to treat yourself as often as possible. in the grand scheme of things, making sure you go out to a nice place to eat once a week or take a nice vacation when you have the time off is well worth the extra credit card debt you may accumulate. Its a long haul and you have to keep yourself sane

 

[Pilot Doc]

a) your friends who are lawyers/bankers make 5x the money for 1/2 the work

b) seeing people who were your med students become attending EM/peds/IM docs (and the associated salary)

I dunno about a. ALL young professionals work about as hard as possible. If you're in an ACGME compliant program, I bet your business friends work as hard or harder than you.

Now "b" I agree with. Just got my first consult last month from an attending who was younger than me. That was depressing.

 

[Enough]

A 5-7 year residency is quite a while to be poor. Given that we do what we like, being poor still bites. How do you guys handle this? What motivates you? I'll be married come graduation and know that I'd be away often but the fact that residency is so long and being poor is so long...well you know the drill.

What’s even worse is that for the most part you well have to struggle after your training to make up the money. The money you have deferred in earning for all these years. Most of us have these large loans to pay back even though half of our services are for free. But the loan companies will be knock at your door 24/7 until they get their money.

It is a huge irony!

Just Do IT. Hold your head high, practice what you love, and pray that one of these days some one will fix this mess we are in.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Ugh, stop with the bleeding heart already. Maybe those large families wouldn't be poor if they hadn't just shot out kids that they could ill-afford. A lot of people who are poor made lots of poor choices in life that got them to where they are. In contrast, a resident is someone who worked hard, usually were at or near the top of their class for much of their life, amassed a large debt to do what they wanted ...and in return, get paid very little, work mind-numbing hours in really crappy conditions, and are often mistreated by the system or by their colleagues. Not to mention that we often have to learn a second language in order to communicate with these fine, upstanding citizens that we're taking care of on the fly.

You are right - many people are poor because they have made bad decisions. However, that doesn't change the fact that many are financially unstable because of situations beyond their control or the fact that many people would see it as inappropriate and offensive that a soon to be married man, without children and a dual income is crying about being "poor", when he is making at least as much as the average American (and if not more, assuming his fiancee works). Besides, NO ONE goes into residency without knowing that the salaries are low given the amount of financial investment, work and education required. I find it a bit unsettling that incoming residents are complaining about salaries...its not like its a suprise. That was the REAL point of my earlier post.

 

[Pilot Doc]

I find it a bit unsettling that incoming residents are complaining about salaries...its not like its a suprise. That was the REAL point of my earlier post.

Come on Kimberly, lighten up. I don't know to what extent you're responding to the OP or followers on, but his original post wasn't complaining. Perhaps he made a "poor" choice of words, but his question was how to emotionally deal with a relative lack of resources compared to his peers. And truthfully, that's what matters. There are very few people on the earth today who can really claim poverty if the standard is lack of a more destitute comparison group, even if it's a historical one.

Back to answering the OP's post - do your best to take simple joys in things that are free or cheap. Do you splurgin at the grocery store - e.g. take home a pair of freshly steamed lobsters one night - it's only $20.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Come on Kimberly, lighten up. I don't know to what extent you're responding to the OP or followers on, but his original post wasn't complaining. Perhaps he made a "poor" choice of words, but his question was how to emotionally deal with a relative lack of resources compared to his peers. And truthfully, that's what matters. There are very few people on the earth today who can really claim poverty if the standard is lack of a more destitute comparison group, even if it's a historical one.

Back to answering the OP's post - do your best to take simple joys in things that are free or cheap. Do you splurgin at the grocery store - e.g. take home a pair of freshly steamed lobsters one night - it's only $20.

Perhaps I was overreacting, to both the OP and the followers. If the real problem is dealing with lack of resources compared with his peers, that's a valid concern, one I think most of us have dealt with. Its tough, especially during medical school to watch your friends order expensive wines, drive nice cars and buy houses when you are still borrowing money from your parents at age 30+.

I interpreted the OP's complaint as rather the issue was with the money itself and that making "only" $41 K/year made someone "poor". Far from it, IMHO and I'm apologize to everyone, especially the OP if I misinterpreted his thoughts.

As you note, there are lots of things you can do that don't cost a lot of money and one of the benefits of residency is that you don't really have the time to spend all your money anyway!

 

[Enough]

You are right - many people are poor because they have made bad decisions. However, that doesn't change the fact that many are financially unstable because of situations beyond their control or the fact that many people would see it as inappropriate and offensive that a soon to be married man, without children and a dual income is crying about being "poor", when he is making at least as much as the average American (and if not more, assuming his fiancee works). Besides, NO ONE goes into residency without knowing that the salaries are low given the amount of financial investment, work and education required. I find it a bit unsettling that incoming residents are complaining about salaries...its not like its a suprise. That was the REAL point of my earlier post.

This is exactly the problem with this profession. We work so hard to silence people's concerns and complaints. While we are getting raped by insurance companies that are making an obscene amount of profit over our work, the malpractice lawyers putting the fear of god in our hearts for touching the patients, and the hospitals who are milking us for all we are worth for cheap labor during residency. We can not take it lie down. ---- enough is enough.

We can still take care of our patients and love what we do, but we should not be silent any more.

 

[Winged Scapula]

This is exactly the problem with this profession. We work so hard to silence people's concerns and complaints. While we are getting raped by insurance companies that are making an obscene amount of profit over our work, the malpractice lawyers putting the fear of god in our hearts for touching the patients, and the hospitals who are milking us for all we are worth for cheap labor during residency. We can not lie down and take it. ---- enough is enough.

We can still take care of our patients and love what we do, but we should not be silent any more.

It was not my intent to "silence" the OP...you'll get no argument from me that residents are paid too little for too much work and responsibility.

My initial complaint was over my OP's use the term "poor", a post for which I have subsequently apologized for. Residents are not "poor" in relation to the general population and they have every right to complain about it their relatively low wages, but perhaps an internet forum is not the best place to do so, because complaining is not whats needed but rather action.

 

[Enough]

It was not my intent to "silence" the OP...you'll get no argument from me that residents are paid too little for too much work and responsibility.

My initial complaint was over my OP's use the term "poor", a post for which I have subsequently apologized for. Residents are not "poor" in relation to the general population and they have every right to complain about it their relatively low wages, but perhaps an internet forum is not the best place to do so, because complaining is not whats needed but rather action.

Point understood.

Thank you.

 

[Dr. V]

Hmmm...well considering that residents still make more than the median US salary, I would hardly call it being "poor". You will make more than many large families you treat. In fact, the statement that residents are "poor" would be seen as insulting to those who really are poor.

You will make enough money to live in a decent apartment, buy yourself food and clothing. Medicine is all about delayed gratification - we're good at it; you will be too.

Dr. Cox, one thing you are forgetting is that the "median income" you are talking about is based on a 40 hour work week. Ours is 80.

If you figgure the wage by the hour then we make 9.95 an hour and to compare that to the other salaries, that comes to about 19600 a year. How does 19600 stack up to the "median" income?

The people that make hourly wage actually get time and a half after 40 hours so the person making 20 grand a year would work as much as we do then they would make 50 grand a year, which is actually more than we do.

I started in the hay and tobacco fields at 2 dollars an hour. I worked in a factory for 12 years full time making ball studs for cars and I have had to actually go out and hunt for food to feed my family due to lack of funds. Even with all that, I can say that residents are "poor" because the ones making 20 grand a year COULD work 80 hours a week and all the sacrifice that comes with it in loss of free time/family time. Yes, all things considered we are "poor", maybe not in actual salary but when free time is factored in that makes a big difference.

Of course to me and what I have lived on and got by with on I'm pretty happy, but I can see where others feel like they are "poor" because the amount of money for the hours worked is pretty small.

I do make it a point to mention the 9.95 an hour every time I get a snide comment about how I make "good money" because I am a doctor though. Seeing the reaction on their faces is pretty sweet because the majority of people with steady full time employment in permanant jobs makes more than that and it is a complete shocker.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I understand where you're coming from but the issue was/is not one of hourly wages (again, I don't disagree that residents are underpaid) nor how much one works. If you choose to divide the salary by hours worked, it is of course less than others. And yes, you are right - many people assume we make big bucks, my own family included.

But the median income is NOT based on hours worked but rather includes those who work for hourly wages and those on salary. Many people do work jobs, for more than 40 hrs a week, on SALARY, and don't get overtime. I did it and so did many others here. We can all come up with jobs which require more than 40 hrs per week, on salary and aren't any more than a residents salary. Self-employed people or those who work in a small business, often work more than 40 hrs per week and don't get overtime, and many don't have insurance coverage.

I still would argue that a resident's salary doesn't make one "poor" especially if you are single, or in the case of the OP, engaged, with no children and a working fiancee. That was my whole point. I did agree that I perhaps misinterpreted the OP's point - that he felt "poor" in relation to friends who made more, had houses, nice cars, etc - essentially had an adult life, while he will still be somewhat struggling.

I'm obviously having trouble getting my point across - mine is not an argument that residents make enough, or that we work too many hours or that we don't make more than others. Salaries have never been fair - most people work more hours each week than Lindsay Lohan, yet she makes more for 1 film than most of us will earn in a lifetime. Teachers - a classic story of underpayment. Police officers the same. Besides, residents are just in training - frankly until you have an unrestricted license and are BE I don't see much reason to be making a "doctor's salary".

 

[Skylizard]

hopefully... that is really the reason you are there...
Good luck to you in your new challenges, focus on the positives that made you go into surgery and avoid getting distracted... you are a physician but truely still a student ...
As a med student you can pay over 20k/yr now as a resident you are being paid 40k/yr to be a student.
Try to think of it as you are now being paid something to be a student as opposed to continually "going in the red" and paying to be a student...

I just wanted to repost what I wrote elsewhere. Think about it. Dr. Fogarty of "Fogarty International", major inventor, etc... used to do residency and cut grass to pay for his living expenses during training. I remember in undergrad working multiple jobs and taking loans to pay for school/training and support my family. Now, I am paid to study. I even receive a meal subsidy. Residency is not your career. It is training/schooling for your career. Someone with a masters in engineering working for a corporation or a law degree working for a firm are in their career...not training for it. I really encourage everyone to understand this perspective.

just my 2 pennies

PS: I wouldn't complain if my stipend was doubled....but, yes, it is a "stipend".

 

[dynx]

I just wanted to repost what I wrote elsewhere. Yes it sucks to "train" numerous hours and not have the shiny things in life. While in residency, you have NOT finished training. Think about it. Dr. Fogarty of "Fogarty International", major inventor, etc... used to do residency and cut grass to pay for his living expenses during training. I remember in undergrad working multiple jobs and taking loans to pay for school/training and support my family. Now, I am paid to study. I even receive a meal subsidy. Residency is not your career. It is training/schooling for your career. Someone with a masters in engineering working for a corporation or a law degree working for a firm are in their career...not training for it. I really encourage everyone to understand this perspective.

just my 2 pennies,
LS

PS: I wouldn't complain if my stipend was doubled....but, yes, it is a "stipend".

edit...nvm

 

[Winged Scapula]

I just wanted to repost what I wrote elsewhere. Yes it sucks to "train" numerous hours and not have the shiny things in life. While in residency, you have NOT finished training. Think about it. Dr. Fogarty of "Fogarty International", major inventor, etc... used to do residency and cut grass to pay for his living expenses during training. I remember in undergrad working multiple jobs and taking loans to pay for school/training and support my family. Now, I am paid to study. I even receive a meal subsidy. Residency is not your career. It is training/schooling for your career. Someone with a masters in engineering working for a corporation or a law degree working for a firm are in their career...not training for it. I really encourage everyone to understand this perspective.

just my 2 pennies,
LS

PS: I wouldn't complain if my stipend was doubled....but, yes, it is a "stipend".

That's the point I wanted to make, but was too tired to do so eloquently. Thanks...

 

[Dr. V]

The median income is by far dictated by the 40 hour work week. The great majority of people are employed by the hour, in factories and are not salary.

On the note of teachers, just a point that most forget.

They only work 8-9 months a year so that needs to be figgured into the equation when you talk about over/under paid. If a teacher gets 30000 a year then in reality that is 45000 a year if they worked the entire year.

My father is a teacher and it was great that he was off for 3-4 months a year plus sick leave, personal leave etc. If he retired right now they would have to pay his salary for like 5 more years due to all his "comp time" that has acrued and yes, they do continue to pay the salary for all those years because it is "owed" so he would get that in addition to his retirement until the comp time/sick time is paid up.

As for the "paid to study" line, when I worked in the factory people always were paid to train. The great majority of jobs are factory jobs and they are all paid to train. They didn't just start running the line day one. If you were in tool and die you got 15 bucks an hour, time and a half over forty and double time on Sunday (in my area where a 3 bedroom brick with 1/2 acre was 50,000, yes fifty grand) and got the raises as you went. It took the average Tool and Die man 3-5 years to earn his Journemans card. Heck my little brother, a HS drop out, makes over 18 bucks an hour as a maintennance man at a local factory back home. That's double what I make. He has worked hard and earned his position, not saying that, just throwing that out for comparison. A janitor at Ford Motor Company makes 25-30 bucks an hour, and MD's make 9.95.

Technically in most states you are considered "fully trained" after intern year as you can obtain full lisensure after intern year. (it may not be a majority any more, but it is at least in Tennessee). Being "paid to train" is the status quo. Even so, after intern year that arguement becomes invalid. Not to mention the "free labor" the hospitals get out of us.

Again, not complaining coming from my background I'm doing OK and love my job, but in relative terms residents ARE poor. (riches are measured by more than dollars alone time is very valuable)

Money wise I don't think residents are "poor" it's a pretty good salary to me, but all things considered I can see why some people feel that way.

 

[Apollyon]

Delayed gratification is certainly it. I made more money as a resident than I ever did as a paramedic, and I was talking with a guy a few days ago that makes about $25/hr on the ambulance - and has 6 kids!

Now, I'm flush with cash, paying bills, and still having scratch left over (which means I'm going nuts on Amazon, but still haven't bought a house or the "home theatre", and my BMW - purchased CPO with money from my father's insurance when he died - is now 6 years old and going strong), but still "living like a resident" because I gots no one to spend it on.

However, by being thrifty, in November of my (first) intern year, I went to Tahiti on vacation (cost about $1400 - total - in November 2002). It can be done.

The thing about the attending now calling you that you knew as a med student is funny - since I look young, the docs here that don't know me yet think I'm a rotating resident!

 

[Skylizard]

I think to attempt a comparison between residents and other professionals based on hours and salaries is probably more apples and oranges. True, there is no perfect comparison.

I don't believe a comparison to a practicing engineer, banker, lawyer, etc... is a fair one.

But, I too would love a huge salary increase. Do I have to budget? yes. Do I look in the mirror and say, "I am so poor..." No. I look at myself from the perspective of a "struggling student" with greater future earning potential then most.

For now, I can not focus on my salary and take up the banner to wage war on my being "underpaid". It would be far too much of a distractor from the reason I am in residency. My ego gets beat on everyday, I am not going to self flagilate on top of it by declaring myself financially abused and impoverished. Rather, I will take up a banner and push for enhancement of my education. I will fight that fight everyday and always first over any salary argument.

 

[Amgen1]

you are a physician but truely still a student ...
As a med student you can pay over 20k/yr now as a resident you are being paid 40k/yr to be a student.
Try to think of it as you are now being paid something to be a student as opposed to continually "going in the red" and paying to be a student...

Now, I am paid to study. I even receive a meal subsidy. Residency is not your career. It is training/schooling for your career. Someone with a masters in engineering working for a corporation or a law degree working for a firm are in their career...not training for it. I really encourage everyone to understand this perspective.

This is a completely bogus argument.
The minute you match into residency and graduate med school you are in your “career”

Do you think that a new graduate from law school is a “fully trained lawyer”? Do you think they have any court room experience at all?

The top 5 firms in texas are paying 1st year associate lawyers $160,000 + bonus after 3yrs of law school and no post graduate training.

Every professional job (banking, law, engineering) is on the job “training”.

You are not being paid to “be a student”. Most surgery residents are fully licensed physicians 2-3 yrs into residency. You are not a fully trained surgeon, but you are a fully trained physician and your services are of a much greater value than 40,000/yr.

I agree that this is a system that we all agreed to be a part of. And most of us enjoy what we do and are willing to make the time/financial sacrifice (otherwise we would have gone into EM/FP, etc).

However, don’t delude yourself into believing that you are being “paid to study”. The system is set up to abuse you and it will take full advantage of your acceptance of this abuse.

 

[Skylizard]

This is a completely bogus argument.
The minute you match into residency and graduate med school you are in your "career"...

I accept everyone is entitled to their opinion.
As for residency being "in your "career"", I disagree.

I do not think comparing a law school grad to a resident is an appropriate comparison. Some institutions and some attendings within an institution do a far better job with the education component then others.

Comparing a junior partner in a law firm to a resident is not a good comparison. Someone fresh out of law school can if they so choose start up a solo practice and go right to work with or without a partner/s (once passed bar). Not really so for the med-school grad. I would also say a residency grad being a junior surgical partner in a practice and helped by senior surgical partners would be a more accurate comparison to a junior law partner being helped by seniors and compensated as such. So to your question, "...do you think a new graduate from law school is a "fully trained lawyer"? YES. That doesn't mean they have nothing to learn. But, fresh out of law school, he/she can if they so choose start up a solo practice and go right to work.

 

[beetlerum]

I would say that comparing a junior partner in a law firm to a resident is not a good comparison. Someone fresh out of law school can if they so choose start up a solo practice and go right to work with or without a partner/s (once passed bar). Not really so for the med-school grad. I would also say a residency grad being a junior surgical partner in a practice and helped by senior surgical partners would be a more accurate comparison to a junior law partner being helped by seniors and compensated as such. So to your question, "...do you think a new graduate from law school is a “fully trained lawyer”? YES. That doesn't mean they have nothing to learn. But, fresh out of law school, he/she can if they so choose start up a solo practice and go right to work.

I agree with your comparison of a junior law partner to someone out of residency. However, it is just absurd to say that a law school graduate is a fully trained lawyer. Lawyers receive all of their training on the job. They come out of law school no more able to practice law than a med school graduate comes out ready to practice medicine. In fact, if anything, residents generally get responsibility faster than lawyers at large firms, and fresh med school grads are more equipped to do some basic medicine than fresh law grads are equipped to practice any law. Law school does remarkably little to prepare graduates for legal practice. There is very little clinical experience, unlike med school.

Sure a law grad can start a solo practice and be a general legal practitioner, but they will be really limited in what they can do and they would learn it all on the job. A med school grad doesn't have to complete residency and become board certified to be a gen prac. If you want to complain that lawyers, at least at the very top (since starting salaries for lawyers are probably 40-50k), then fine, that's fair. Residents should make more. But starting with the lawyers "train" for three years and doctors "train" for all of med school and residency, and therefore (insert conclusion here), is just silly.

By the way, there are lawyers who go to Harvard Law, do two years of clerkships, a couple years of public interest fellowships, and then make 40k as public interest lawyers. They may make resident salaries for most of their careers, and probably don't consider themselves poor.

 

[Miami_med]

I accept everyone is entitled to their opinion.
As for residency being "in your "career"", I disagree.

Again my opinion, but I do not think comparing a law school grad to a resident is an appropriate comparison. First, residency does fall under ACGME & RRC. People can look up those entities and what the letters stand for if they choose. Second, I grant you that some institutions and some attendings within an institution do a far better job with the education component then others.

I would say that comparing a junior partner in a law firm to a resident is not a good comparison. Someone fresh out of law school can if they so choose start up a solo practice and go right to work with or without a partner/s (once passed bar). Not really so for the med-school grad. I would also say a residency grad being a junior surgical partner in a practice and helped by senior surgical partners would be a more accurate comparison to a junior law partner being helped by seniors and compensated as such. So to your question, "...do you think a new graduate from law school is a “fully trained lawyer”? YES. That doesn't mean they have nothing to learn. But, fresh out of law school, he/she can if they so choose start up a solo practice and go right to work.

In closing, IMHO, residency if a comparison should be drawn to another field is better compared to a PhD doing "Post-Doc" work/training. I suspect we can go in circles on this matter. I believe my opinion is fully expressed and differs from others...to each their own. No worries.

LS

Not having the "right" to practice independently is a matter of licensing and political maneuvering. It has very little to do with variation in "readiness." In fact, the fact that doctors HAVE to do residency in order to practice any sort of medicine is why they can keep the salary so low.

 

[dpmd]

I would be curious to see someone break things down to the working part of residency versus the education part. When people are calculating these low hourly wages, they are including lots of things no employer would really pay you for (although in this case they are mandatory). If you were to subtract the hours spent in educational conferences, eating (most people clock out for meals), and sleeping (debatable, since I have slept while working night shift at some places) I wonder what that would do to the hourly wage. I'm not saying that I wouldn't want to get paid more (who wouldn't), or that I think the salary is exactly what we should get. I just recognize that it is the price we pay for the training we receive in the current system (hell, I can just act like I get paid 80K a year, but pretend I am still paying tuition). If people are arguing that we are fully trained after intern year, then why don't more people just get their license after intern year and set up shop somewhere. Evidently there is value to the residency, whether it is true or just artificial due to the regulatory environment we are in.

 

[Dr. V]

Actually hourly employees do get paid for conferences, and if they have to drive to a conference they get mileage.

I spent several days a year in teaching confrence while an employee of the factory. There are OSHA mandated Safety Meetings that we had every week, plus any QA meetings, new equipment meetings, CPR training etc etc etc. They paid for every one of the classes plus paid us the hourly wage. The bonus part is that even if you were in class all week, if you were scheduled to work Saturday you still got your time and a half, and if you worked that Sunday you got double time.

As for meals, well we got two 15 minute paid breaks plus an unpaid 30 minute lunch. It is mandatory that for every 4 hours worked another 10 or 15 minute break is added on, so if you work 12 hours you got three 15 minute breaks plus lunch. I don't know any residents that have a "lunch time" much less a "break time". If you get it great, if not well eating is over rated anyway LOL.

However, since I worked midnights I didn't get a lunch time, I just got the two paid 15 minute breaks, the reason they didn't have to give us lunch is because they very generously paid us for 8 hours a day working 7 (midnight till 7 am was the regular shift, if you left early though you only got hours worked, not the bonus hour). They gave us the bonus hour instead of a shift premium and a lunch break.

I never ever slept on the job though, that was an immediate firing offense, of course it wasn't like you were there for 30 hours at a time either.

I worked at several factories, they all paid for conferences/teaching. If it is required for work then they are required to pay you for your time taking the class plus the fee for the course. That's not an isolated thing.

So yes, saying that we make 9.95 an hour is a very accurate statement. Saying we make 40 grand a year is very misleading to the average citizen because they have no concept of the hours we work and in their minds we are getting 40 grand a year for 40 or so hours a week which is "good money" (actually many of them think we work less than 40 hours per week and play alot of golf)

Again, the salary for me is fine, it's "good money" compared to what I made before med school (not hourly but over all) and it's inside and airconditioned hospital instead of 180 degree heat treat department, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's 9.95 an hour and I just work an extreme amount of hours. However since "rich and poor" are defined by more than money alone (I feel particularly rich because of what I have been through and the fact that I have a wonderful wife and daughter) I can see where someone without much family support or comforts working away with no time to even pay their bills due to work can feel "poor".

Heck for that matter there are plenty of people way below the median income, even below the poverty level, that are "rich" money wise due to having a very nice home, several cars, etc because they are gaming the system. Most of them will get caught, but plenty of them are smart enough to get the toys in someone elses name and pot growers only take cash so they only report their welfare payments to the IRS.

There are plenty of people who only do intern year, they just won't be "board certified" in any field but they will be a fully liscensed MD. Heck they could technically, legally perform surgery and only have consequences when something went wrong because the liscense says "Medicine and Surgery". In rural areas there are plenty of non surgeons doing surgery. All that is required is MD and a liscense. I would never do that because I imagine insurance would be outrageous, if you could even get it at all, and if you ever had a complication you would be toast in court, but plenty of people still do it.

 

[TheThroat]

Its all about the field we go into, which, by the by, is one of the most-respected, highly paid, most secure fields in the world.

I would much rather make 40K for 5 years and then have the opportunity for an ultra-secure job where I have the opportunity to make 200-600K a year and am highly respected in the community, than (like my business friends), work like a dog in the system right out of college, hope that I don't get fired, have to work for a boss, work my way up kissing butt, maybe make it to upper management...

If you want to whine about residency pay, find another job. Docs in the US don't realize that we are paid more than docs in most other parts of the world, still control our own destiny (not run by the govt [yet]), are respected (locally, if not nationally anymore), and generally live a pretty sweet life.

PhD's, on the other hand, have similar intelligence and go to school for a similar amount of time. Then, they get paid much less with little ability to significantly upgrade their income for the rest of their career.

 

[Winged Scapula]

There are plenty of people who only do intern year, they just won't be "board certified" in any field but they will be a fully liscensed MD. Heck they could technically, legally perform surgery and only have consequences when something went wrong because the liscense says "Medicine and Surgery". In rural areas there are plenty of non surgeons doing surgery. All that is required is MD and a liscense. I would never do that because I imagine insurance would be outrageous, if you could even get it at all, and if you ever had a complication you would be toast in court, but plenty of people still do it.

Just wanted to clarify for others reading this, that while technically you can practice surgery with a license (which in many states only requires one PG year unless one is an FMG), practically it is not possible. Medicare does not reimburse to physicians who have not completed a residency and many insurance companies are doing the same. In addition, I am aware of some companies refusing to reimburse unless the surgeon is BC!

Unless one operates a boutique practice or opts out of Medicare, the ability to actually work and be paid without completing a surgical residency is essentially a thing of the past.

 

[ice_23]

Dr. V, for the most part, your points are spot on. I appreciate your insight (especially given your own personal experiences in other fields/with your parents).

-Ice

 

[Pilot Doc]

Medicare does not reimburse to physicians who have not completed a residency

I don't think that's true. The hospitals where I moonlight bill medicare for my services all the time.

Medicare won't reimburse for care given by residents in their residency, but that's under the theory that they've already bought you with the direct GME payments to hospitals, not that they just won't pay docs who haven't finished residency.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I don't think that's true. The hospitals where I moonlight bill medicare for my services all the time.

Medicare won't reimburse for care given by residents in their residency, but that's under the theory that they've already bought you with the direct GME payments to hospitals, not that they just won't pay docs who haven't finished residency.

Thank you for correcting me.

I had thought that physicians in practice were being increasingly limited in receiving Medicare payments if they weren't Board Eligible. My new partner evens tells me that she's had some insurance companies ask for proof of her Board Certification before allowing her to sign up. Wave of the future?

 

[NDESTRUKT]

I didn't realize my post would incite such responses. Pilotdoc, how do you find time to moonlight as a surg resident? I thought most surg residents aren't able to moonlight unless during their lab year.

 

[Pilot Doc]

I'm in the lab.