On being yelled at/humiliated, and taking the criticism well

[messenger634]

I had an surgery rotation a few months ago, and like many students have experienced - got yelled at/criticized/ect repeatedly. The other students never seemed to find their way into that trouble, but all of us came to the idea after a little while that I was pretty much being yelled at because I could take it well and improve on it, without letting it ruin my day or anything. One girl was always on the verge of tears, and they left her alone. Even rotating interns commented on it. And both students and interns said I was taking it very well! It was though I was the whipping boy when it was time to make a point or instill some discipline on the group.

Do you think residents/attendings do that on purpose to test people that they know can handle it? I remember in football (and I think in many sports in general) coaches would always treat the toughest players with the most potential the harshest, and then reward them when the time was right. Is that at all analogous to some of the training in the medical field? or were they just yelling at me and that was all there was to it? It seemed pretty ridiculous at the time. Curious to hear thoughts on this-

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[adaptation1]

lol, curiosu to hear answers from attendings and residents.

I had an surgery rotation a few months ago, and like many students have experienced - got yelled at/criticized/ect repeatedly. The other students never seemed to find their way into that trouble, but all of us came to the idea after a little while that I was pretty much being yelled at because I could take it well and improve on it, without letting it ruin my day or anything. One girl was always on the verge of tears, and they left her alone. Even rotating interns commented on it. And both students and interns said I was taking it very well! It was though I was the whipping boy when it was time to make a point or instill some discipline on the group.

Do you think residents/attendings do that on purpose to test people that they know can handle it? I remember in football (and I think in many sports in general) coaches would always treat the toughest players with the most potential the harshest, and then reward them when the time was right. Is that at all analogous to some of the training in the medical field? or were they just yelling at me and that was all there was to it? It seemed pretty ridiculous at the time. Curious to hear thoughts on this-

 

[thechad]

 

[messenger634]

I'm not really sure why you needed to put that photo up here, but sure, I was mad at the time. Its past now, but I'm not sure is there is any thought or reasoning in this way of training. Like I said, I seemed to have noticed it in sports, but not sure if at times their is any similar intention in medicine. Thanks for you input though Chad.

 

[Bigz]

I still don't understand the culture behind this behavior and why it is so condone and accepted. I mean really, yelling, screaming and even humiliation? Is it some kind of hazing? All this from a profession that prides itself on respect, professionalism, etc. Give me a break. I can handle criticism but I don’t usually deal with disrespect and humiliation well. In my previous work life I was known for setting my bosses straight when they crossed that fine line. May be an attending can shed light on why it’s okay to humiliate people. I don't get it. Those who have suffered such how did you deal with it or is just part of the game.

 

[giggle]

Bump!

 

[g8orlife]

I had an surgery rotation a few months ago, and like many students have experienced - got yelled at/criticized/ect repeatedly. The other students never seemed to find their way into that trouble, but all of us came to the idea after a little while that I was pretty much being yelled at because I could take it well and improve on it, without letting it ruin my day or anything. One girl was always on the verge of tears, and they left her alone. Even rotating interns commented on it. And both students and interns said I was taking it very well! It was though I was the whipping boy when it was time to make a point or instill some discipline on the group.

Do you think residents/attendings do that on purpose to test people that they know can handle it? I remember in football (and I think in many sports in general) coaches would always treat the toughest players with the most potential the harshest, and then reward them when the time was right. Is that at all analogous to some of the training in the medical field? or were they just yelling at me and that was all there was to it? It seemed pretty ridiculous at the time. Curious to hear thoughts on this-

If your peers want to hang out with you and think you're great ... then I wouldn't worry about it. If you haven't had anyone invite you out to a social, party or get together in a while, then it's probably you .... If everyone likes you, then using you to set an example will be more powerful. If others dont like you, then that's bad news and you need to change your act.


Sorry if incomprehensible ... Think I'm dunk. Thank God fot auto correct for fixing my settlers.

 

[jdh71]

I had an surgery rotation a few months ago, and like many students have experienced - got yelled at/criticized/ect repeatedly. The other students never seemed to find their way into that trouble, but all of us came to the idea after a little while that I was pretty much being yelled at because I could take it well and improve on it, without letting it ruin my day or anything. One girl was always on the verge of tears, and they left her alone. Even rotating interns commented on it. And both students and interns said I was taking it very well! It was though I was the whipping boy when it was time to make a point or instill some discipline on the group.

Do you think residents/attendings do that on purpose to test people that they know can handle it? I remember in football (and I think in many sports in general) coaches would always treat the toughest players with the most potential the harshest, and then reward them when the time was right. Is that at all analogous to some of the training in the medical field? or were they just yelling at me and that was all there was to it? It seemed pretty ridiculous at the time. Curious to hear thoughts on this-

Reminds me of my surgery rotation in medical school. It sucks to be the lightening rod, and the residents and students commented on it too. And as much as I'd like to think it was because "I could take it" or perhaps something along the lines of the "best/toughest" player on the team analogy (not saying in your case this wasn't the case), but I kind of think this is, and what happened to me to just be nothing more than unsurprising bad behavior by surgeons.

Sorry man. I'm not sure there is a way to take this kind of "criticism" well. But they can only hurt you for a little while and now you're done. Haters gunna hate.

 

[xanthomondo]

Bump!

lol a bump after 37 minutes of being idle?

 

[2012mdc]

lol a bump after 37 minutes of being idle?

in the middle of the night too haha

 

[giggle]

lol a bump after 37 minutes of being idle?

in the middle of the night too haha

Ehh hehe sorry guys! I'm halfway across the world (supposedly on vacation) so my sense of time is a bit off...

Hey OP - I found this post by PandaBearMD helpful: http://www.pandabearmd.com/2007/04/16/dont-tell-the-spartans/

 

[Ras Tafari]

While I am just starting medical school this August, I have worked in the hospital for a couple of years now and have plenty of experience seeing medical students, residents, and even attendings humiliated and berated. I'm not sure if this is the "norm" in the medical field, but it certainly happens. And if someone has trouble dealing with it then they will be eaten alive, particularly by the crazy ICU nurses, haha. I think it's best to have a thick skin, cry or punch something later when you get home, and give people **** in return. Most of the time I have seen someone be chewed out it's because of a gross lack of knowledge regarding something. One particular incident brought to mind is when an attending chewed at a fourth year surgery resident for her complete lack of knowledge regarding ventilator settings. I think the hospital, especially the ICU, makes people very tense and missing something or not knowing something you should know can result in another person completely losing control. You shouldn't take these things personally, but learn from them and realize that everyone has a breaking point and some people are simply *******s...with positions of authority.

 

[Mr hawkings]

I still don't understand the culture behind this behavior and why it is so condone and accepted. I mean really, yelling, screaming and even humiliation? Is it some kind of hazing? All this from a profession that prides itself on respect, professionalism, etc. Give me a break. I can handle criticism but I don't usually deal with disrespect and humiliation well. In my previous work life I was known for setting my bosses straight when they crossed that fine line. May be an attending can shed light on why it's okay to humiliate people. I don't get it. Those who have suffered such how did you deal with it or is just part of the game.

Its so wierd. I havent been yelled at yet but i've seen interns getting yelled at in front of me and its so humiliating. I mean theyve been doctors for only 2 weeks now and i would think that there would be more teaching than berrating at this point. Maybe i'm too soft.

And then theres the uncomfortable situation when an intern gets a pimped question wrong on some random mech and i start getting scared that the attending might ask me next even though i know the right answer cos i just took step 1 and that stuff is still fresh.

I dont want to look clueless but i dont want t show up the intern either.

 

[2012mdc]

Its so wierd. I havent been yelled at yet but i've seen interns getting yelled at in front of me and its so humiliating. I mean theyve been doctors for only 2 weeks now and i would think that there would be more teaching than berrating at this point. Maybe i'm too soft.

And then theres the uncomfortable situation when an intern gets a pimped question wrong on some random mech and i start getting scared that the attending might ask me next even though i know the right answer cos i just took step 1 and that stuff is still fresh.

I dont want to look clueless but i dont want t show up the intern either.

in my experience most attendings go up the hierarchy instead of down when asking questions. they start with the medical students and make their way up

 

[Mr hawkings]

in my experience most attendings go up the hierarchy instead of down when asking questions. they start with the medical students and make their way up

Its just this one attending who only asks interns and residents but there have been time that i've known something that they didnt and hope he doesnt ever ask me. At least i have enough sense to keep my head down and not chime in. That would be a disaster

 

[ArcGurren]

Eh. There's a lot of sociopaths in many fields of medicine but surgery seems to attract more (though most of the surgeons I've interacted with have been pleasant, friendly people for the most part). I don't think there's always a good reason for the humiliating/berating.

 

[doc2beIRELAND]

I think it's worse when they sigh and look at you witheringly as if there's no hope for the future of medicine thanks to idiotic students like us. Nobody has shouted yet. Gonna try my hardest not to cry if they do

 

[SFO-IST]

Its just this one attending who only asks interns and residents but there have been time that i've known something that they didnt and hope he doesnt ever ask me. At least i have enough sense to keep my head down and not chime in. That would be a disaster

So what are the rules then? You don't correct your peers/superiors while on rotations? If you're asked after someone else gets it wrong, do you answer? Is there a good thread on SDN with more of the unwritten rules?

 

[IlDestriero]

I think it's worse when they sigh and look at you witheringly as if there's no hope for the future of medicine thanks to idiotic students like us. Nobody has shouted yet. Gonna try my hardest not to cry if they do

You always push the ones that you feel have the most potential the hardest and longest. It is just like in sports. If you're worthless, it's a waste going after you on rounds, because everyone already knows that you're worthless and weak, and you're just wasting everyone's time. The future chiefs and stars are the ones you want to constantly challenge and push to the next level. I don't yell, but I do have a special scowl for the really hopeless.

If I throw you out of the OR, that's bad too.

 

[doc2beIRELAND]

You always push the ones that you feel have the most potential the hardest and longest. It is just like in sports. If you're worthless, it's a waste going after you on rounds, because everyone already knows that you're worthless and weak, and you're just wasting everyone's time. The future chiefs and stars are the ones you want to constantly challenge and push to the next level. I don't yell, but I do have a special scowl for the really hopeless.

If I throw you out of the OR, that's bad too.

wow. I don't know whether to feel scared or turned on! Bring it on, mean bosses!

 

[Bigz]

You always push the ones that you feel have the most potential the hardest and longest. It is just like in sports. If you're worthless, it's a waste going after you on rounds, because everyone already knows that you're worthless and weak, and you're just wasting everyone's time. The future chiefs and stars are the ones you want to constantly challenge and push to the next level. I don't yell, but I do have a special scowl for the really hopeless.

If I throw you out of the OR, that's bad too.

Really? People make it this far and are still considered worthless? You must be full of yourself..... We can not have 20, 000 chiefs and stars graduating each year you know.... Have you heard of too many chiefs.... Some one has to work at the walk-in clinic and prescribe that badly needed antibiotics.

 

[Rollo]

So what are the rules then? You don't correct your peers/superiors while on rotations? If you're asked after someone else gets it wrong, do you answer? Is there a good thread on SDN with more of the unwritten rules?

I'm new at this so take what I say with a grain of salt.

You shouldn't correct your superiors unprompted. That is, if your resident gives a wrong answer, don't immediately jump up and offer the right answer.

However, and this can be controversial, I would offer the right answer if I was asked. I am not going out of my way to make the intern look stupid. I am simply asked point blank by the attending and since I know it, I'm going to give the answer.

The obvious problem with this is that the intern/resident feels like an idiot and might have a grudge against you. But honestly, it isn't my fault that they didn't know the right answer. Like I said, I'm NOT going to offer the right answer if I'm not asked for it. But if I directly get asked, then all bets are off.

So far though, my experience of a whopping 1 month in inpatient medicine has been that most residents didn't treat the students any differently when the above scenario of "resident not knowing, but the student knowing" happened.

 

[Bacchus]

I would say I don't know. That's just me. The interns and upper-level residents usually always know. I think I was asked once, and just responded with "I don't know."

 

[IlDestriero]

Really? People make it this far and are still considered worthless? You must be full of yourself..... We can not have 20, 000 chiefs and stars graduating each year you know.... Have you heard of too many chiefs.... Some one has to work at the walk-in clinic and prescribe that badly needed antibiotics.

I'm fortunate enough to be done with rounding forever. The residents and fellows I help train now are the cream of the crop, and even than, there are standouts. Head and shoulders above their peers. I spend most of my time with them, pusing them to recognize their full potential. I'll give you an example. I did very well on my inservice exams, scoring a board passing equivalent after my CA1 year. Many faculty took the "he's got it already" approach, leaving me essentially on my own and never pimping me in the OR or during lectures at all. The more seasoned faculty took the time to regularly challenge me and force me to understand things at the next level. They made me who I am today, and I thank them for it!
BTW, there are a significant number of marginal residents and fellows out there. They'll graduate and be safe, but they'll never be great. I would call many of them worthless and would strongly oppose them if they tried to join my practice. We had 2 this year. Safe, competent, but not worthy of joining the faculty by a long shot.

 

[ArcGurren]

I'm fortunate enough to be done with rounding forever. The residents and fellows I help train now are the cream of the crop, and even than, there are standouts. Head and shoulders above their peers. I spend most of my time with them, pusing them to recognize their full potential. I'll give you an example. I did very well on my inservice exams, scoring a board passing equivalent after my CA1 year. Many faculty took the "he's got it already" approach, leaving me essentially on my own and never pimping me in the OR or during lectures at all. The more seasoned faculty took the time to regularly challenge me and force me to understand things at the next level. They made me who I am today, and I thank them for it!
BTW, there are a significant number of marginal residents and fellows out there. They'll graduate and be safe, but they'll never be great. I would call many of them worthless and would strongly oppose them if they tried to join my practice. We had 2 this year. Safe, competent, but not worthy of joining the faculty by a long shot.

Asking questions and helping people learn is very different from trying to put people on the spot just to degrade and humiliate them. There's attending A, who likes to screw with his students just because he gets a perverse pleasure out of watching them suffer the way he did. There's attending B, who recognizes how difficult medical students and residents have it on the learning curve, and while he asks difficult questions, he does it in order to help you remember these facts and improve your patient care.

Don't disagree with you, but at the same time - simply being part of a highly competitive program/good training residency doesn't mean that the students who perform less aren't necessarily destined for "greatness" by your definition (which appears to be joining your faculty...).

 

[2012mdc]

I'm fortunate enough to be done with rounding forever. The residents and fellows I help train now are the cream of the crop, and even than, there are standouts. Head and shoulders above their peers. I spend most of my time with them, pusing them to recognize their full potential. I'll give you an example. I did very well on my inservice exams, scoring a board passing equivalent after my CA1 year. Many faculty took the "he's got it already" approach, leaving me essentially on my own and never pimping me in the OR or during lectures at all. The more seasoned faculty took the time to regularly challenge me and force me to understand things at the next level. They made me who I am today, and I thank them for it!
BTW, there are a significant number of marginal residents and fellows out there. They'll graduate and be safe, but they'll never be great. I would call many of them worthless and would strongly oppose them if they tried to join my practice. We had 2 this year. Safe, competent, but not worthy of joining the faculty by a long shot.

isn't worthless a little harsh though? you're admitting they are safe and competent. it's a big jump from not being great to being worthless.

I understand the point of yelling at someone when they make mistakes or to push them. phrases like "that's completely unacceptable" "I expect better from you" etc with curse words intertwined are understandable and can be used constructively. Berating someone by calling them worthless just seems useless and not constructive

 

[IlDestriero]

Asking questions and helping people learn is very different from trying to put people on the spot just to degrade and humiliate them. There's attending A, who likes to screw with his students just because he gets a perverse pleasure out of watching them suffer the way he did. There's attending B, who recognizes how difficult medical students and residents have it on the learning curve, and while he asks difficult questions, he does it in order to help you remember these facts and improve your patient care.

Don't disagree with you, but at the same time - simply being part of a highly competitive program/good training residency doesn't mean that the students who perform less aren't necessarily destined for "greatness" by your definition (which appears to be joining your faculty...).

I don't humiliate anyone, and don't mean to imply that it's ok to humiliate anyone just because you can. There's no one to see it anyway. The surgeons aren't listening. Usually they're beating their own fellows. But I do expend more energy on teaching the superstars.
And my definition of greatness has nothing to do with joining my faculty. It's being head and shoulders above your peers, and striving to be even better. Many get to the top and rest on their laurels and coast to the finish. It's a shame.

 

[officedepot]

I had an surgery rotation a few months ago, and like many students have experienced - got yelled at/criticized/ect repeatedly. The other students never seemed to find their way into that trouble, but all of us came to the idea after a little while that I was pretty much being yelled at because I could take it well and improve on it, without letting it ruin my day or anything. One girl was always on the verge of tears, and they left her alone. Even rotating interns commented on it. And both students and interns said I was taking it very well! It was though I was the whipping boy when it was time to make a point or instill some discipline on the group.

Do you think residents/attendings do that on purpose to test people that they know can handle it? I remember in football (and I think in many sports in general) coaches would always treat the toughest players with the most potential the harshest, and then reward them when the time was right. Is that at all analogous to some of the training in the medical field? or were they just yelling at me and that was all there was to it? It seemed pretty ridiculous at the time. Curious to hear thoughts on this-

I think they just yelled at you because you were either A) doing lots of things incorrectly or B)weren't actually getting yelled at but were being criticized in some way and took it as them "yelling".

I very highly doubt they were "yelling" at you because you were the tough one and they wanted to show others how tough you were and try to instill some point to the group. However if it makes you feel better to think otherwise then just go ahead and do that.

 

[officedepot]

You always push the ones that you feel have the most potential the hardest and longest. It is just like in sports. If you're worthless, it's a waste going after you on rounds, because everyone already knows that you're worthless and weak, and you're just wasting everyone's time. The future chiefs and stars are the ones you want to constantly challenge and push to the next level. I don't yell, but I do have a special scowl for the really hopeless.

If I throw you out of the OR, that's bad too.

this actually does make sense. It sounds kinda harsh but can be true. You'll see it if you are working with someone with very much inferior knowledge. The attending tends to ignore the ones who don't know as much. Not that they don't care about the other but they'll focus more on the person who actually knows something... I'm not sure if this holds for residents and I only have some experience with this (working with students from other schools for example or with students from different programs). Also when you become a 4th year and work with a 3rd year, if the 3rd year knows more than you that's a bad sign more times than not because I have heard residents talk about this stuff...

 

[Pinner Doc]

I had an surgery rotation a few months ago, and like many students have experienced - got yelled at/criticized/ect repeatedly. The other students never seemed to find their way into that trouble, but all of us came to the idea after a little while that I was pretty much being yelled at because I could take it well and improve on it, without letting it ruin my day or anything. One girl was always on the verge of tears, and they left her alone. Even rotating interns commented on it. And both students and interns said I was taking it very well! It was though I was the whipping boy when it was time to make a point or instill some discipline on the group.

Do you think residents/attendings do that on purpose to test people that they know can handle it? I remember in football (and I think in many sports in general) coaches would always treat the toughest players with the most potential the harshest, and then reward them when the time was right. Is that at all analogous to some of the training in the medical field? or were they just yelling at me and that was all there was to it? It seemed pretty ridiculous at the time. Curious to hear thoughts on this-

Newly minted attending here. I can honestly say that I never (to my knowledge) acted like this, and based on my observations, the douche-bags who do act like this are covering up unhappiness or insecurities. Or are just really, really exhausted.

Brush your shoulder off. It's not you, it's them!

 

[VenusinFurs]

Needs more memes.

Goodbye, small amount of remaining intelligence.

 

[mrwesticles]

A friend of mine got yelled at to the point of tears, and it seemed like the resident didn't even realize she had yelled so much. We'd like to tell ourselves it's a proving ground, but in reality it's a combination of stress, no sleep, power, and sensitivity over the tiniest screw up.

 

[Tired]

Yes, it is common.

Yes, it is a way to test you.

Yes, if you take it well, you get street cred from the residents and attendings. Either that, or they're smashing you because you really do suck. It can be hard to tell one way or the other sometimes.

At least from what I've seen, the mindset is that surgery (even as a student or resident) provides unparalleled opportunity to immediately and decisively kill people with poor decisions, inattention to detail, or errors in technique. The seriousness of the situation is imparted via fear. And it actually kind of works, which is why med students work so hard on surgical rotations, even when they aren't the least bit interested in the field.