On the business side of things

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toothless rufus

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How does one decide how much a procedure, or whatever costs? I'm sure that if you work for a hospital with a preexisting menu of prices, ok, but how do they decide what to charge, and if you are a solo doc, how do you figure out what is fair? If everybody just looks over each others shoulder and says "well, Drs X, Y, and Ruprect charge $Z, so I will too", then who is really figuring this all out? Do those humanitarianly oriented insurance companies play a part?

Does it depend on how much you took out in student loans?

Are they gonna teach us this stuff in med school?

Is it gonna be really boring?
 
No, it will be wildly exciting.

The business aspect of medicine is what makes most of us flock to the field.
 
How does one decide how much a procedure, or whatever costs? I'm sure that if you work for a hospital with a preexisting menu of prices, ok, but how do they decide what to charge, and if you are a solo doc, how do you figure out what is fair? If everybody just looks over each others shoulder and says "well, Drs X, Y, and Ruprect charge $Z, so I will too", then who is really figuring this all out? Do those humanitarianly oriented insurance companies play a part?

Does it depend on how much you took out in student loans?

Are they gonna teach us this stuff in med school?

Is it gonna be really boring?

HMO's set the prices..
 
actually medicare sets the standards and then HMOs get wind of that information and drive their reimbursements down.

typically they DO NOT teach you this stuff in medical school, although it behooves you to become aware of these issues by asking these questions to your attendings.

J
 
You ask a very good question. And while HMO usually dictates the price that they are willing to compensate for visits/procedures, they usually base it on what the federal government (Medicare) pays. And no, the vast majority of medical schools (MD or DO) do not teach or even hint about how physicians are paid (or the business of medicine). Only a few even talk about the Stark and Stark 2 laws.

Anyway, a good site to start is the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) - subdivision of HHS that you will get to know quite well once you are done with your training. And since it's the federal government involved in setting fee schedules, you can guess that it is highly convoluted, complex, confusing, non-sequitur, stupid, with layers and layers of red tape and traps (ie., committee work on steroids)

However, if you choose to charge "cash" for your services/procedures, then your reimbursement is based purely on what your patients are willing to pay. (if someone wants to pay $500 for OMM aimed at the lumbar region, then you can charge $500 for OMM)



http://www.cms.hhs.gov/apps/pfslookup/step0.asp

Medicare Physician Fee Schedule
This website is designed to provide information on services covered by the Medicare Physician Fee Schedule (MPFS). It provides more than 10,000 physician services, the associated relative value units, a fee schedule status indicator, and various payment policy indicators needed for payment adjustment (i.e., payment of assistant at surgery, team surgery, bilateral surgery, etc.).
The Medicare physician fee schedule pricing amounts are adjusted to reflect the variation in practice costs from area to area. A geographic practice cost index (GPCI) has been established for every Medicare payment locality for each of the three components of a procedure's relative value unit (i.e., the RVUs for work, practice expense, and malpractice). The GPCIs are applied in the calculation of a fee schedule payment amount by multiplying the RVU for each component times the GPCI for that component.

This site is designed to take you through the selection steps prior to the display of the information.
The site allows you to:
  • search pricing amounts, various payment policy indicators, RVUs, and GPCIs by a single procedure code, a range and a list of procedure codes.
  • search for the nation, a specific carrier, or a specific carrier locality. Each page has associated Help/Hint available to complete your selections.
 
You can charge anything you want, but you will only get reimbursed about 1/3 of what is "fair market price" for the procedure. Unless of course you take Medicaid, then you will get about $8.00. LOL!😀
 
Group_theory: thank you for the link! Exactly what I didn't know what to look for!

Dr. Mom: I can get a real nice cheeseburger with fries for eight bucks!

Dr. Jay: Do they learn on the job, or take some kind of CME thing?

So basically, the physician is out of the loop when it comes to rates, unless it is cash and carry. I am not sure I like people who are not in the loop determining how physicians should operate.

Any chance that those rates are determined by a "physician consensus?" or something? But I guess that would make too much sense...which itself tells me probaly not! I guess the argument would be (and maybe justifiably) that docs would just charge exorbitant fees, like before managed care or something.

Why does every system known to man that was made by man essentially stink?

It must be that damn entropy! 😛
 
Group_theory: thank you for the link! Exactly what I didn't know what to look for!

Dr. Mom: I can get a real nice cheeseburger with fries for eight bucks!

Dr. Jay: Do they learn on the job, or take some kind of CME thing?

So basically, the physician is out of the loop when it comes to rates, unless it is cash and carry. I am not sure I like people who are not in the loop determining how physicians should operate.

Any chance that those rates are determined by a "physician consensus?" or something? But I guess that would make too much sense...which itself tells me probaly not! I guess the argument would be (and maybe justifiably) that docs would just charge exhorbitant fees, like before managed care or something.

Why does every system known to man that was made by man essentially stink?

It must be that damn entropy! 😛

LOL! Physician consensus...?!?!? YEA RIGHT! Have a day filled with Medicaid patients and you can't pay your bills, let alone buy a cheeseburger. That is why a lot of doctors don't accept Medicaid. I plan on accepting it, but I am not in this for the money and hopefully everything will balance out. There are a lot of issues with the current system, but we have to work with what we've got. 🙂
 
There are a lot of issues with the current system, but we have to work with what we've got. 🙂

Do we? I am so irritated by the stupid way almost everything that is organized is always so poorly constructed! Why is that? It makes me feel quite maliciously irked. Can't everybody just get on the same freakin' sane page?😕

That does it! I'm writing my grocery list!!

Have a day filled with Medicaid patients and you can't pay your bills, let alone buy a cheeseburger. That is why a lot of doctors don't accept Medicaid

Where I work, all we accept is medicaid/care, or sliding scale to nothing; and trust me they are bringing in decent moolah. Oh yeah, figured it out. I work at the Emergency Services. We also have three clinics where the volume is outrageous, and clients scheduled like sardines. Me no likey this kind of medicine.
 
Do we? I am so irritated by the stupid way almost everything that is organized is always so poorly constructed! Why is that? It makes me feel quite maliciously irked. Can't everybody just get on the same freakin' sane page?😕

That does it! I'm writing my grocery list!!



Where I work, all we accept is medicaid/care, or sliding scale to nothing; and trust me they are bringing in decent moolah. Oh yeah, figured it out. I work at the Emergency Services. We also have three clinics where the volume is outrageous, and clients scheduled like sardines. Me no likey this kind of medicine.
Yea, it is really sad. My father is a neurologist who is in practice by himself. He does not accept medicaid because he LITERALLY could not pay his bills if he did. It is really sad because it is not because he doesn't care or wants to make a lot of money, he just can't afford to do it. He STILL has to work his a$$ off and cram lots of patients in. That is why there are fewer and fewer doctors in practice by themselves. In the area where I live, all the doctors are combining into these huge, multi-doctor groups with like twenty doctors. THEY still pack them in like sardines. Unfortunately, this is the way medicine seems to be headed. Doctors have to see more and more patients in a day and the quality of the patient care is plumeting. As you probably already know, I want to go into rural family medicine and I plan on accepting EVERYONE regardless of their insurance or ability to pay. My goal is to provide the widest range of quality care to the people who need the most. But, I really want a relatively simple live (i.e., no Mercedes and country club 😉 )and the cost of living in these area is much lower. I also plan to run a "bare-bones" practice with minimal staff, so I feel that it will all work out in the end. I have seen so many people suffer from the lack of decent health care and I would never feel good about myself if I didn't do my best to make a difference.
 
Yea, it is really sad. My father is a neurologist who is in practice by himself. He does not accept medicaid because he LITERALLY could not pay his bills if he did. It is really sad because it is not because he doesn't care or wants to make a lot of money, he just can't afford to do it. He STILL has to work his a$$ off and cram lots of patients in. That is why there are fewer and fewer doctors in practice by themselves. In the area where I live, all the doctors are combining into these huge, multi-doctor groups with like twenty doctors. THEY still pack them in like sardines. Unfortunately, this is the way medicine seems to be headed. Doctors have to see more and more patients in a day and the quality of the patient care is plumeting. As you probably already know, I want to go into rural family medicine and I plan on accepting EVERYONE regardless of their insurance or ability to pay. My goal is to provide the widest range of quality care to the people who need the most. But, I really want a relatively simple live (i.e., no Mercedes and country club 😉 )and the cost of living in these area is much lower. I also plan to run a "bare-bones" practice with minimal staff, so I feel that it will all work out in the end. I have seen so many people suffer from the lack of decent health care and I would never feel good about myself if I didn't do my best to make a difference.

I hope that things will change in medicine. I will try my best to help that change happen. A purely business-for-profit model slapped onto healthcare is just plain wrong! Medicine, like the people it cares for, should have a caring spirit. I worry that it may possibly harden mine when I actually am a doctor, due to the overwhelmingly negative stuff.

You have a good heart, Dr.Mom 🙂
 
I hope that things will change in medicine. I will try my best to help that change happen. A purely business-for-profit model slapped onto healthcare is just plain wrong! Medicine, like the people it cares for, should have a caring spirit. I worry that it may possibly harden mine when I actually am a doctor, due to the overwhelmingly negative stuff.

You have a good heart, Dr.Mom 🙂

Thanks! You do too, as well as an AWESOME sense of humor!😀 I do worry about how time will affect me. Maybe I am just naive and idealistic and nothing will work out the way I plan, but I don't think that will be the case. I am too caring and emotional a person to become jaded and hardened by life. Good luck with all your dreams. Lets hope that we both will make a difference and that there are many other future physicians that feel the same way.😀
 
How does one decide how much a procedure, or whatever costs? I'm sure that if you work for a hospital with a preexisting menu of prices, ok, but how do they decide what to charge, and if you are a solo doc, how do you figure out what is fair? If everybody just looks over each others shoulder and says "well, Drs X, Y, and Ruprect charge $Z, so I will too", then who is really figuring this all out? Do those humanitarianly oriented insurance companies play a part?

Does it depend on how much you took out in student loans?

Are they gonna teach us this stuff in med school?

Is it gonna be really boring?
Typically, there are agreements with insurance companies and HMO's (which aren't insurance, BTW). They set what is "reasonable and customary" to charge. The physician agrees to charge this in the event that the pt presents this insurance. Otherwise the physician charges whatever he wants. Some time look at a medical bill that you have had. You will see an itemization that states something like "standard fee," and then "allowed amount." This allowed amount is the reasonable and customary amount or standard fee, whichever is less.
 
Typically, there are agreements with insurance companies and HMO's (which aren't insurance, BTW). They set what is "reasonable and customary" to charge. The physician agrees to charge this in the event that the pt presents this insurance. Otherwise the physician charges whatever he wants. Some time look at a medical bill that you have had. You will see an itemization that states something like "standard fee," and then "allowed amount." This allowed amount is the reasonable and customary amount or standard fee, whichever is less.

Thanks, jk! BTW, I like your sig! Much truth there!
 
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