One Legged spinals

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Has anyone heard of “one-legged spinals”. My group acquired the contract for a small hospital where they were doing most of their ortho cases under regional and they were doing “one-legged spinals” for their knee cases. Essentially 0.75% bupi hyperbaric with pt on side for placement and remains in place for 5 min. Using lower doses (0.6-0.8 ml). Substantially less weakness of non-operative leg and less hemodynamic instability. Surgeon injected knee as well and patient watched her knee scope.





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Has anyone heard of “one-legged spinals”. My group acquired the contract for a small hospital where they were doing most of their ortho cases under regional and they were doing “one-legged spinals” for their knee cases. Essentially 0.75% bupi hyperbaric with pt on side for placement and remains in place for 5 min. Using lower doses (0.6-0.8 ml). Substantially less weakness of non-operative leg and less hemodynamic instability. Surgeon injected knee as well and patient watched her knee scope.

How quickly are they out of the hospital? For quick cases patient’s usually recover from general fast enough that I bet overall general is more efficient. I give a some fentanyl toradol/Tylenol and wake up is pretty quick, pain is controlled and their out the door. I do like spinals though.


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Has anyone heard of “one-legged spinals”. My group acquired the contract for a small hospital where they were doing most of their ortho cases under regional and they were doing “one-legged spinals” for their knee cases. Essentially 0.75% bupi hyperbaric with pt on side for placement and remains in place for 5 min. Using lower doses (0.6-0.8 ml). Substantially less weakness of non-operative leg and less hemodynamic instability. Surgeon injected knee as well and patient watched her knee scope.

Who is “they”?

Where do “they” find patients that are willing to be awake during an operation?o_O
 
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It’s an old technique. More of a novelty than anything else.
 
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If youre giving a spinal for a one sided op Why would you not do this? Why would you deliberately block both sides?

Old technqiue? That's subjective. Its probably younger than general anesthesia.
It's definitely not a dead technique.

And patients queue up for this. Lots of ppledo not want a ga. Just prop infusion and off they go...
 
Has anyone heard of “one-legged spinals”. My group acquired the contract for a small hospital where they were doing most of their ortho cases under regional and they were doing “one-legged spinals” for their knee cases. Essentially 0.75% bupi hyperbaric with pt on side for placement and remains in place for 5 min. Using lower doses (0.6-0.8 ml). Substantially less weakness of non-operative leg and less hemodynamic instability. Surgeon injected knee as well and patient watched her knee scope.





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It's not as dramatic as you think, but hyperbaric Bupivacaine does follow gravity and does provide a denser block in the dependent leg in the the lateral position.
You still get some degree of blockade in the upper side so it's not really a one legged spinal.
Everyone who did a residency in anesthesia knows how hyperbaric spinals behave, at least I hope they do.
 
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What is the point of any of this? So that the patient can walk earlie...oh wait you still need two legs to walk. Now you added five more minutes for nothing. At least they will be able to see for themselves what a sham the procedure is.
 
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The only places I've ever seen spinals done routinely for outpatient knees is the 3rd world where the budget for the anesthetic was about 3 USD-equivalents.

I struggle to conjure another reason to do them. longer time to discharge, urinary retention, nonzero PDPH risk, patients who universally fear a needle in the back, etc.
 
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Used to do this all the time. It is an old technique, and I’m old enough to prove that.

One benefit is a lack of sympathetic block on the opposite leg, so there would be less blood pressure drop.

Granted, hypotension can be dealt with, but it is still a benefit.
 
The only places I've ever seen spinals done routinely for outpatient knees is the 3rd world where the budget for the anesthetic was about 3 USD-equivalents.

I struggle to conjure another reason to do them. longer time to discharge, urinary retention, nonzero PDPH risk, patients who universally fear a needle in the back, etc.

What do you do?
 
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I’m thinking isobaric chloroprocaine or mepivacaine is likely a better choice. It may have less urinary retention risk.
 
The only places I've ever seen spinals done routinely for outpatient knees is the 3rd world where the budget for the anesthetic was about 3 USD-equivalents.

I struggle to conjure another reason to do them. longer time to discharge, urinary retention, nonzero PDPH risk, patients who universally fear a needle in the back, etc.
Except for the proven increase in EBL, PE risk, infection risk, renal failure, resp failure, and increased mortality, I totally agree with you. Granted, this is for inpt, but the surgery is the same and risk profile should be the same.

Perioperative Comparative Effectiveness of Anesthetic Technique in Orthopedic Patients
 
Except for the proven increase in EBL, PE risk, infection risk, renal failure, resp failure, and increased mortality, I totally agree with you. Granted, this is for inpt, but the surgery is the same and risk profile should be the same.

Perioperative Comparative Effectiveness of Anesthetic Technique in Orthopedic Patients

We’re talking scopes here, not totals.

A lot of that evidence is weak and not overly reproducible.

If I’m having a TKA, spinal me every time. A scope? - just put an F’in LMA in me and leave me alone.
 
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We’re talking scopes here, not totals.

A lot of that evidence is weak and not overly reproducible.

If I’m having a TKA, spinal me every time. A scope? - just put an F’in LMA in me and leave me alone.
Ah, my bad. I'm with you on that. Scope spinal is DUMB.
 
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Except for the proven increase in EBL, PE risk, infection risk, renal failure, resp failure, and increased mortality, I totally agree with you. Granted, this is for inpt, but the surgery is the same and risk profile should be the same.

Perioperative Comparative Effectiveness of Anesthetic Technique in Orthopedic Patients

Proven???
Please do tell!! Any other studies with conflicting results?

30% of that trial didn't even note the type of anesthetic. Sounds like concrete evidence to me!

Ops initial question didn't fully clarify scope vs tka. Yes a spinal is overkill for a tka
 
Proven???
Please do tell!! Any other studies with conflicting results?

30% of that trial didn't even note the type of anesthetic. Sounds like concrete evidence to me!

Ops initial question didn't fully clarify scope vs tka. Yes a spinal is overkill for a tka
I'm not going to do a lit search for you, but there is an ABUNDANCE of data that spinal is better for total joints than GA.
 
I'm not going to do a lit search for you, but there is an ABUNDANCE of data that spinal is better for total joints than GA.
Capitalizing the amount of data does make it more clinically relevant, I agree!

Seriously like, what 'ga' did these people have? Did the have a good ga, a bad ga? A white stuff ga? A little syringe, big syringe ga? You know those small insignificant details that would change a study utterly that aren't reported in your trial?

I repeat 30 percent of your trial had to be excluded because they couldn't ascertain even what type of anesthetic was performed. That is 3rd world standard of care/reporting. So for me, I'll ignore that
 
Capitalizing the amount of data does make it more clinically relevant, I agree!

Seriously like, what 'ga' did these people have? Did the have a good ga, a bad ga? A white stuff ga? A little syringe, big syringe ga? You know those small insignificant details that would change a study utterly that aren't reported in your trial?

I repeat 30 percent of your trial had to be excluded because they couldn't ascertain even what type of anesthetic was performed. That is 3rd world standard of care/reporting. So for me, I'll ignore that
You're ignoring one of the most important trials in the subject because of the 500k+ records they looked at, they kicked out 30% because they couldn't figure out what kind of anesthesia they received? Do you even know how to read a study???

Here's a more comprehensive look at the topic:
Perioperative Comparative Effectiveness of Anesthetic Technique in Orthopedic Patients

Read the section on anesthesia techniques:
"Recent studies, utilizing large database sources that allowed for larger sample sizes and an evaluation of real world practice, have demonstrated more positive results related to the use of RA techniques for TKA. In a 2013 retrospective study,236,030 patients received spinal anesthesia and 8,022 patients received GA. The patients receiving spinal anesthesia had a lower rate of wound infection, blood transfusions, and overall complications. The length of surgery and hospital LOS were both decreased in the spinal anesthesia population. These effects were more pronounced among patients with numerous comorbidities.23 In a 2012 study comparing GA and NA for bilateral TKA, improved outcomes were identified in the neuraxial group.24 Of the 15,687 patients, 80.1% had GA, 13.1 had a combination of GA and NA, and 6.8 had only NA. Patients in the NA-only group required fewer blood transfusions and exhibited lower, but nonsignificant, rates of in-hospital mortality, 30-day mortality, and overall complications.24 In 2013, Memtsoudis et al25,26 published two additional studies in support of NA. In both studies, the patient population was split into three groups: NA, GA, and combined NA and GA. The first study utilized a population of 382,236 patient entries with TKA/THA and identified that patients receiving NA had significantly lower 30-day mortality rates compared to GA (0.10% vs 0.18%, respectively; P<0.001) and a lower incidence of prolonged LOS, increased cost, and in-hospital complications.2 After multivariate analysis, GA was found to be associated with increased 30-day mortality (OR 1.83, 95% CI 1.08–3.1, P=0.02), higher risk of pulmonary compromise (OR 1.83, 95% CI, 1.43–2.35, P<0.0001), pneumonia (OR 1.27, 95% CI 1.05–1.53, P=0.0083), all infections (OR 1.38, 95% CI 1.26–1.52, P<0.0001), and acute renal failure (OR 1.44, 95% CI 1.24–1.67, P<0.0001). Transfusion requirements were lowest in the NA-only group. The incidence of prolonged LOS was greatest in the GA-only group.25 The second study by Memtsoudis et al26 demonstrated benefits for NA in 30,024 sleep apnea patients undergoing TKA. Of these patients, 74% received GA, 15% received NA and GA, and 11% received NA only with no GA.26 Rates of pulmonary, gastrointestinal, infectious, and renal complications were all lower in the NA-only patients. Transfusions, mechanical ventilation, and critical care services were lower in patients receiving NA and NA/GA compared to those receiving only GA. The GA-only patients also had the longest LOS. The cost of all three groups did not differ substantially averaging ~$15,510 per surgery with a standard deviation of only $225.26 The improved outcome assessment from these large database sources has been left vulnerable by the fact that these studies were retrospective and utilized administrative data sources that may be susceptible to coding errors and data quality concerns."
 
Beyond funny. A retrospect chart review considered gold standard evidence. And I'm the one who doesnt know how to read an article!

I agree Im not very good at reading papers though.
 
Now that study does say something interesting. How is a ga with spinal combo safer than a ga alone?
 
I lay the patient on their side for about 1-2 minutes after all spinals I do for total hips and knees. It isn't totally "one legged", but I think it helps it set up quicker and denser on the operative leg.
 
Now that study does say something interesting. How is a ga with spinal combo safer than a ga alone?
Prevention of DVT primarily. This has also been shown in studies looking at thoracic epidurals for abdominal surgery.
 
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