One more procedure?

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"Our professions get along much better than you think and want to believe."

Sure, that's why the AAO unanimously decided to BAN optometrists from their meetings/lectures/workshops/tutorials...

A few academic MD dinosaurs don't quite count as the consensus opinion of the masses...

And if we did have MDs on ambulance routes, you could be sure that the field of EMTs would be severely compromised... Unfortunately, this will never happen... Fortunately, there is a medical/surgical field in which real doctors train and practice, diagnose and treat disease called Ophthalmology (spelling includes the oft-forgotten silent 'h')... So where does that leave you?

Dinosaur? He said he had 8 years practicing, so 38 yo maybe?

You didnt answer my question. You just attacked EMT's. Pity EMT's if doctors take all of their jobs? Are you out to destroy all professions? If someone is in cardiac arrest, there needs to be someone at the door to help that person. At this point, its not a doctor. It's someone with 7.5 less years of medical education than an optometrist. And yet you say that the profession of optometry is a useless degree.

We took the same classes you did in undergraduate. I even did pretty well on the MCAT (and DAT for that matter). We take many of the same classes as you in our professional school. I CHOSE to do optometry. That leaves me as a DOCTOR of Optometry. I don't really want to be called an optometric physician (I actually dont care for it), optometrist is fine with me. But I WILL be a doctor of optometry. It's been that way for years. You don't need to launch a personal attack on me because my degree was called this for the past 40+ years.

For the record, I'm undecided on the optometry-surgery thing, so please don't assume I don't agree with you. I just think your reasoning is extremely obtuse and uninformed at time. To completely discount optometry as a profession is just ridiculous.

And BTW,

http://www.optometrysmeeting.org/

Hope to see all of you there. I mean that sincerely. We need to compromise and work together as eye care professionals in the best interest of our patients. And hopefulli we ken all get our crapy spelingg out of arr sistums. 🙂 👍

 

[JennyW]

I spent two years as an adjunct faculty member of a medical school while working at a VA hospital. While at the VA hospital, I tought ophthalmology residents how to refract, how to fit basic contact lenses, and how to do basic low vision.

Without a doubt, the most arrogant group of people in all of the health care system are 1st and 2nd year residents. Medical students are a close second. Somehow, it seems to get much better once they reach their 3rd year. It's almost like they have to pass through infancy and the "terrible twos" Though I dealt mostly with ophthalmology, I found that this problem extended accross other disciplines as well.

This thread just helped reaffirm that belief.

Jenny

 

[jefguth]

Again, no need to make this personal (it seems like that's what y'all do on this forum when there is nothing of value to say), but I'm quite secure with what I've accomplished... Getting into an ophtho residency as a canadian and graduate of a caribbean school is much tougher than getting into optom school. I'm actually damn proud of myself... And above all this, I never had to settle to become an optometrist.

If you so dislike the personal interjections then why did you take the initiative to come here and attack all of us on such a personal level?

And for the record, knowing the typical undergraduate performance of a caribbean med school student, a person such as yourself would not have even been considered by the optometry school in your home province - never. So much for settling on optometry

 

[UABopt]

I'm still learning the subtle differences between the US and Canada, but here, crash carts ARE mandatory in every room that angio is performed... What do they teach you in OD school about treatment of ventricular arrythmias refractory to an epi pen? And don't even start to compare yourselves to Dentists... They are 10 times the physician and surgeon OD's will ever be... They also spend the better part of their first 2 years in the same classes as medical students...

Brendang-

I have to agree with the others on this board, there must be some source for your extreme hostility. I hate to tell you 2/3 of the eyecare professionals in this country are optometrists. Like it or not we will be your colleagues one day, and we are not going anywhere.

As far as an optometric education not being comparable to a dental education… at UAB we take Histology, Physiology, General Pathology, Microbiology, General Pharmacology, Systemic Pathology among other classes with the dental students. Clearly they have a general science curriculum that is 10X better than we do…we sit in the same classroom and take the same tests… but they use all of those big words, and it just goes over our heads (sarcasm) .

Maybe you just have a misunderstanding of the optometric curriculum, we are not technicians trained at some obscure community college. If you are willing to admit that dental students “spend the better part of their first 2 years in the same classes as medical students”… then by default you have to also say this applies to optometry students, because we take these classes with them.

 

[wrx04]

Again, no need to make this personal (it seems like that's what y'all do on this forum when there is nothing of value to say), but I'm quite secure with what I've accomplished... Getting into an ophtho residency as a canadian and graduate of a caribbean school is much tougher than getting into optom school. I'm actually damn proud of myself... And as far as LSU being one of the lowest-rated OMD programs, I'd have to disagree... Their extra year is a blessing in disguise... The extra year is standard in Canadian residency training and provides one with a superior technical skill upon completion of residency training. This had a lot to do with one's ability to gain acceptance into and perform well in competitive fellowship appointments... And above all this, I never had to settle to become an optometrist.

Does anyone else think that this is hilarious? The only MD trying to stir up trouble is the one that graduated from a caribbean med-school. THIS GUY IS A JOKE

 

[futuredoctorOD]

I'm still learning the subtle differences between the US and Canada, but here, crash carts ARE mandatory in every room that angio is performed... What do they teach you in OD school about treatment of ventricular arrythmias refractory to an epi pen? And don't even start to compare yourselves to Dentists... They are 10 times the physician and surgeon OD's will ever be... They also spend the better part of their first 2 years in the same classes as medical students...

You are comments are misguided and foolish....I just got back from NOVA Southeastern College of Optometry where the Optometry, Dental, PharmD, and yes-------you guessed it---the Ostepathic Medical Students share the many of the same basic science courses in the first 2 years......Look it up www.NOVA.edu Your lack of detail or accuracy[/B] in your information is foolish........you know nothing about optometric education........and you are going to be an Opthalmologist?.....that is frightening.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Does anyone else think that this is hilarious? The only MD trying to stir up trouble is the one that graduated from a caribbean med-school. THIS GUY IS A JOKE

That guy is ridiculous.......

 

[cpw]

So what's your point? I had a drug rep from Alcon teach me how to use "stuff" a couple of weeks ago in California. Should he be allowed to perform intra-ocular surgery too?

no, I'm saying to show that not all med students look down on ODs. THOSE are the kind of med students that will get referrals.

I'm not longer playing with the troll. I'm done...

 

[nanosomic]

let me just say, when I become an optho doc (if I did not change my mind and if I have the grades, to early to tell ) I will love working with you all. btw, not all med students are arrogant.

 

[I Surgeon]

Hey wannabe, Try spelling "Ophthalmology" correctly. It has a "H" after the "p". It urks me every time I see this. Thanks in advance.

P.S. Also, it would help you look more knowledgeable.

Look, I respect Allopathic and Osteopathic training but it is unecessary when you are a practitioner of limited scope (ie optometrist, podiatrist, dentist.)
Dentists and Podiatrists are surgeons and do not go thru medical school.....How many times do I have to repeat this? If you add surgical training as part of the already very rigorous OD program then you will be on a like plane with those two professions.....Obviously if a Podiatrist or Dentist can perform surgical procedures without going to medical school and it is definitely possible with educational modification for Optometrists to do the same. You keep saying the training of an "Opthalmologist" and I am in no way talking about turning Optometry into opthalmology rather I am talking about the natural extension of Refractive Management----Refractive Surgery being part of the treatment modalities of optometric physicians. The optometric profession innovated refractive management over a century ago and has a mandate to mantain that with technological developments such as LASIK. I say keep optometry a primary care field BUT make available such procedures like refractive surgery for vision correction because it is a natural progression of Refractive Management.

 

[aphistis]

Also...

The last thing I want is to look like I'm supporting this thread's resident jerk, but as long as dentistry keeps getting pulled into the discussion about whether or not to give surgical privileges to OD's, there's another major difference between optometry & dentistry that's getting overlooked. I don't know what sort of surgical fellowship is being considered here, but dental surgery requires exceptional precision from the operator, routinely in the ballpark of .1-.2mm, and I imagine ocular surgery is similarly demanding.

I'll have spent at least three days a week for the past two years practicing these operative skills before I touch my first patient this summer, and I'll spend two more years under the immediate supervision of attending faculty before graduating & receiving licensure. That's four full years of training before I'm allowed to restore a simple cavity without someone watching over my shoulder to make sure I don't punch my handpiece through their mandible.

Completely irrespective of the political argument over whether any actual need for optometrist surgeons exists, if optometry wants to expand into surgery, I hope the proposed surgical training would be equally rigorous. If it takes four years of full-time training to be trusted to work on teeth that, in a worst-case scenario, can ultimately be extracted, replaced by a prosthesis, and usually have the patient drive home from the office as if nothing had ever happened, what standard should be required to operate on arguably the most important, and certainly irreplaceable in the face of major surgical error, sensory organ in the body?

 

[mdkurt]

Also...

The last thing I want is to look like I'm supporting this thread's resident jerk, but as long as dentistry keeps getting pulled into the discussion about whether or not to give surgical privileges to OD's, there's another major difference between optometry & dentistry that's getting overlooked. I don't know what sort of surgical fellowship is being considered here, but dental surgery requires exceptional precision from the operator, routinely in the ballpark of .1-.2mm, and I imagine ocular surgery is similarly demanding.

I'll have spent at least three days a week for the past two years practicing these operative skills before I touch my first patient this summer, and I'll spend two more years under the immediate supervision of attending faculty before graduating & receiving licensure. That's four full years of training before I'm allowed to restore a simple cavity without someone watching over my shoulder to make sure I don't punch my handpiece through their mandible.

Completely irrespective of the political argument over whether any actual need for optometrist surgeons exists, if optometry wants to expand into surgery, I hope the proposed surgical training would be equally rigorous. If it takes four years of full-time training to be trusted to work on teeth that, in a worst-case scenario, can ultimately be extracted, replaced by a prosthesis, and usually have the patient drive home from the office as if nothing had ever happened, what standard should be required to operate on arguably the most important, and certainly irreplaceable in the face of major surgical error, sensory organ in the body?

Very well put. It pains me to say this, but futuredoctorOD had a good post a while back when he outlined a route to optometric surgery. It was very rigorous, and closely approximated what OMFS goes through. Lack of need for more ophthalmic surgeons aside, it would be tough to say that the training he proposed would be inadequate. What is so disturbing to ophthalmologists is that none of the current push for optometric surgery involves additional training.

 

[JennyW]

Very well put. It pains me to say this, but futuredoctorOD had a good post a while back when he outlined a route to optometric surgery. It was very rigorous, and closely approximated what OMFS goes through. Lack of need for more ophthalmic surgeons aside, it would be tough to say that the training he proposed would be inadequate. What is so disturbing to ophthalmologists is that none of the current push for optometric surgery involves additional training.

That's a very legitimate statement.

Current optometric training does not provide for the performance of surgical procedures other than the most minor. (FBs etc. etc.)

However, often times the argument is made that allopathic medical education, internship, residency is the only possible path to any sort of surgical competency. And it is this that many of us are taking exception to. This is the reason that dentistry is pointed out. If optometric training was substantially revamped, then I'm sure there would be competent ophthalmic surgeons graduating from these programs without the need for allopathic medical education. I don't think this will happen because I agree with Kurt. There is no need for it.

Jenny